SoFlaJets Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 How do veterans become proven? By getting a shot. I'd rather give a young guy a shot than sign an aging receiver that has clearly lost a step. Have we learned nothing from Curtis Conway? and what happens if they prove they can NOT handle the stress and hits that come from the pro game? What then? Who do you sign in say October, when every guy like the Torry Holts, TO's, Joey Galloways are all signed and playing somewhere else? I HOPE Davis Clowney, and Chansi Stuckey turn out to be pro bowlers but the chance you take is too great and important to get wrong. Look, right now we have Cotchery, Clowney, Stuckey, Brad Smith, and Marcus Henry on our roster...you'd trust that for your team in September? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Troll Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 and what happens if they prove they can NOT handle the stress and hits that come from the pro game? What then? Who do you sign in say October, when every guy like the Torry Holts, TO's, Joey Galloways are all signed and playing somewhere else? I HOPE Davis Clowney, and Chansi Stuckey turn out to be pro bowlers but the chance you take is too great and important to get wrong. Look, right now we have Cotchery, Clowney, Stuckey, Brad Smith, and Marcus Henry on our roster...you'd trust that for your team in September? So, we should sign someone that we KNOW is on the downside of their career, just because we're scared? Screw that. If we want to bring in a veteran receiver, then bring in one with upside, like Braylon Edwards, not one whose numbers have been on a steady decline since 2004 like Torry Holt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustInFudge Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 It's not like Holt never had success with Bulger. He spent the majority of his career with him. Holt just doesn't have the speed to be dangerous anymore. When you are facing double teams every game because you have no other offensive threat and your Qb and Oline sucks, its hard to get open. As soon as Stephen Jackson was healthy, he was getting open a lot more. And he still managed to get open 63 times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Troll Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 When you are facing double teams every game because you have no other offensive threat and your Qb and Oline sucks, its hard to get open. As soon as Stephen Jackson was healthy, he was getting open a lot more. And he still managed to get open 63 times. Donnie Avery, a raw rookie starting opposite of Holt, had very comparable numbers. 100 less yards on 11 less catches and the same amount of TDs. Torry Holt hasn't had a 100-yard game since December 2, 2007. He's lost a step. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aec4 Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 Donnie Avery, a raw rookie starting opposite of Holt, had very comparable numbers. 100 less yards on 11 less catches and the same amount of TDs. Torry Holt hasn't had a 100-yard game since December 2, 2007. He's lost a step. Torry Holt may have lost 5 steps, and may not be the answer, but there is NO WAY you can expect our QBs to have any shot with the WR core we have now. They do not scare a soul, Cotchery included. They'll line 8 and 9 up in the box and dare us to beat them down the field. It won't happen. If you think the box was crowded when ragarm was QB, wait until you see what it looks like now if we do not have any weapons on the outside. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustInFudge Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 Donnie Avery, a raw rookie starting opposite of Holt, had very comparable numbers. 100 less yards on 11 less catches and the same amount of TDs. Torry Holt hasn't had a 100-yard game since December 2, 2007. He's lost a step. Sure, he may have dropped a step, but do you know how little attention rookie WR's draw in the NFL? The reason Avery caught any balls this year was because Holt was drawing double teams all day long. Torry Holt may have lost 5 steps, and may not be the answer, but there is NO WAY you can expect our QBs to have any shot with the WR core we have now. They do not scare a soul, Cotchery included. They'll line 8 and 9 up in the box and dare us to beat them down the field. It won't happen. If you think the box was crowded when ragarm was QB, wait until you see what it looks like now if we do not have any weapons on the outside. Exactly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Troll Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 His numbers have consistently went down every year since 2004. It's been a long time since Holt was an elite receiver, but he'll want to be paid like one. I'd rather draft a receiver than overpay for a washed up one. Torry Holt doesn't scare anyone anymore either. If he did, he wouldn't be about to get released by a team that has even less receiver depth than we do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoubleDown Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 Holt would be a very good addition to this team. We lack experience, and Holt has a ton of it. There is only 1 WR currently on our roster with meaningful starting experience in the NFL, and that is a huge problem whether people want to admit it or not. The man still has skills. Prior to last year, Holt had 8 consecutive 1000 yard seasons. Granted, he isn't the same receiver he was 4 years ago, but this team is in dire need of a WR with some experience who will command respect on the outside and give our young QB a security blanket. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoubleDown Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 His numbers have consistently went down every year since 2004. It's been a long time since Holt was an elite receiver, but he'll want to be paid like one. That's not even true. 2004: 94 rec, 1372 yards, 10 TD 2005: 102 rec, 1331 yards, 9 TD 2006: 93 rec, 1188 yards, 10 TD 2007: 93 rec, 1189 yards, 7 TD 2008: 64 rec, 796 yards, 3 TD As you can see, 2008 was really his only down year. BTW, I agree with you that we should draft a WR early in this year's draft. We should also add some quality experience and Holt can provide it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Troll Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 That's not even true. 2004: 94 rec, 1372 yards, 10 TD 2005: 102 rec, 1331 yards, 9 TD 2006: 93 rec, 1188 yards, 10 TD 2007: 93 rec, 1189 yards, 7 TD 2008: 64 rec, 796 yards, 3 TD As you can see, 2008 was really his only down year. BTW, I agree with you that we should draft a WR early in this year's draft. We should also add some quality experience and Holt can provide it. 2005: less yards, less YPC, less TDs 2006: less rec, less YPC, less yards 2007: less TDs 2008: less everything Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoubleDown Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 2005: less yards, less YPC, less TDs 2006: less rec, less YPC, less yards 2007: less TDs 2008: less everything Are you joking? Some of these statistical drops are marginal at best and do not impact game to game production at all. I'm sorry, but your argument does not hold any water when you use 41 yard drops and 1 TD drops over the course of 16 game seasons as your proof. With all due respect, if you take an objective look at our current WR corp, you would be nuts not to take Holt's production in any year other than 2008. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Troll Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 Are you joking? Some of these statistical drops are marginal at best and do not impact game to game production at all. I'm sorry, but your argument does not hold any water when you use 41 yard drops and 1 TD drops over the course of 16 game seasons as your proof. With all due respect, if you take an objective look at our current WR corp, you would be nuts not to take Holt's production in any year other than 2008. He is not an elite receiver anymore, but he will want to be paid like one. Tell me why the Rams are cutting him. They have even less receiver depth than we do. He's clearly lost a step. I don't want the Jets bringing in players on the downside of their careers. The Curtis Conway and Art Monk experiments weren't exactly my idea of fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rillo Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 2005: less yards, less YPC, less TDs 2006: less rec, less YPC, less yards 2007: less TDs 2008: less everything To be fair that whole team has gone down, piss poor Oline and defense. I would'nt mind him coming here *IF* the price is right. Jets WR corps isn't scaring anyone, but I'm sure he's looking for a big pay day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoubleDown Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 He is not an elite receiver anymore, but he will want to be paid like one. Tell me why the Rams are cutting him. They have even less receiver depth than we do. He's clearly lost a step. I don't want the Jets bringing in players on the downside of their careers. The Curtis Conway and Art Monk experiments weren't exactly my idea of fun. Obviously, the price would have to be right. I don't think anyone is arguing that point. Holt is definitely past his prime, but he would serve a valuable role on our team. We have no experience and drafting a rookie is not going to solve that problem. He would be a solid receiver one of our young QB's could rely on, no more no less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustInFudge Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 His numbers have consistently went down every year since 2004. It's been a long time since Holt was an elite receiver, but he'll want to be paid like one. I'd rather draft a receiver than overpay for a washed up one. Torry Holt doesn't scare anyone anymore either. If he did, he wouldn't be about to get released by a team that has even less receiver depth than we do. That is ridiculous. As shown by DD, 08 was his first bad season in a long time. The bottom line is, if you draft a WR this year, you cant expect anything and I mean anything from him in 09. Its very rare the rookie WR make and immediate impact. This year was anomoly across the board with rookie production. With the WR core we have, it would be foolish to not consider Holt. I understand your logic and agree for the most part, but Holt is better than you are making him out to be. He has wanted out of St. Louis for a while. This move is based off of money and the direction the team is headed. Torry Holt consistently demanded a double team last year, ask anyone on that team. He could still do so in NY. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Troll Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 Obviously, the price would have to be right. I don't think anyone is arguing that point. Holt is definitely past his prime, but he would serve a valuable role on our team. We have no experience and drafting a rookie is not going to solve that problem. He would be a solid receiver one of our young QB's could rely on, no more no less. The bottom line is that Holt IS going to want a big pay day. If we're so starved for experience, there are other guys out there that have it and won't cost an arm and a leg and come in on the downside of their careers. I agree that it would be best to add a veteran, just not a washed up, over-priced one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Troll Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 That is ridiculous. As shown by DD, 08 was his first bad season in a long time. The bottom line is, if you draft a WR this year, you cant expect anything and I mean anything from him in 09. Its very rare the rookie WR make and immediate impact. This year was anomoly across the board with rookie production. With the WR core we have, it would be foolish to not consider Holt. I understand your logic and agree for the most part, but Holt is better than you are making him out to be. He has wanted out of St. Louis for a while. This move is based off of money and the direction the team is headed. Torry Holt consistently demanded a double team last year, ask anyone on that team. He could still do so in NY. He hasn't been elite for a long time. To me, one 10 touchdown season in the last four years is not elite. He is no longer a scary vertical threat. At this point in his career, I don't feel he brings a great amount to the table. Certainly not worth the price tag. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#27TheDominator Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 He hasn't been elite for a long time. To me, one 10 touchdown season in the last four years is not elite. He is no longer a scary vertical threat. At this point in his career, I don't feel he brings a great amount to the table. Certainly not worth the price tag. Until we know the price tag we can't be too sure. He's not asking out of the Rams because he wants a small deal. OTOH, the Rame are going to cut him before his bonus is due at the end of the month and he knows it and wants to shop himself before everybody is out of money. 1,000 yard seasons are nothing to sneeze at and the guy's "non-elite" years of 7 TDs and 1,000 yards would quite likely be #1 on the Jets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ECURB Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 Until we know the price tag we can't be too sure. He's not asking out of the Rams because he wants a small deal. OTOH, the Rame are going to cut him before his bonus is due at the end of the month and he knows it and wants to shop himself before everybody is out of money. 1,000 yard seasons are nothing to sneeze at and the guy's "non-elite" years of 7 TDs and 1,000 yards would quite likely be #1 on the Jets. Just like Coles did... we want a young upgrade... not another old guy who barely is a #1 or just another #2 on the team... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustInFudge Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 He hasn't been elite for a long time. To me, one 10 touchdown season in the last four years is not elite. He is no longer a scary vertical threat. At this point in his career, I don't feel he brings a great amount to the table. Certainly not worth the price tag. Fair enough. We can agree to disagree and I dont know if I actually think he is worth the money either. However, yhe only problem with your arguement is that Holt was never a big TD machine. The most he has ever had is 12 TD's and he has only hit 10 twice. Does that mean he was never truly elite? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larz Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 NO build with youth, especially at a speed position Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#27TheDominator Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 Just like Coles did... we want a young upgrade... not another old guy who barely is a #1 or just another #2 on the team... Barely a #1 is well more than they have now. I agree a younger player with more upside would be preferable, but if we don't sign SOMEBODY the team HAS to draft a WR #1. I'd prefer a little flexablility in case somebody else fell in our laps. This draft is so deep at WR there may well be a guy in the 2nd that would have had a 1st round grade in another year. Holt probably isn't who I'd look at, but if he is cut I'd at least inquire and make sure he's overpriced before I move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Troll Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 Just like Coles did... we want a young upgrade... not another old guy who barely is a #1 or just another #2 on the team... Exactly. At this point in his career, Holt is pretty much another Coles. No thank you to lateral moves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoFlaJets Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 Exactly. At this point in his career, Holt is pretty much another Coles. No thank you to lateral moves. If he costs less then the 6 or 7 million that Coles would have cost then it's an upgrade because we'll be able to fill another need somewhere else-like LBer, or D-line Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaded Green Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 I'd take Holt over T.O. any day!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoFlaJets Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 Look at New England-they lost Gaffney and are already bringing in every unemployed WR out there-Galloway is paying them a visit as we write. Don't be surprised to see a TO or Holt mentioned as "coming in for a visit" guys. And you want to sit there with the group of unproven nobodies that WE have. Hell they have Moss and Welker already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irish Jet Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 I'd take Holt over T.O. any day!!! IMO that makes you crazy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Troll Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 Look at New England-they lost Gaffney and are already bringing in every unemployed WR out there-Galloway is paying them a visit as we write. Don't be surprised to see a TO or Holt mentioned as "coming in for a visit" guys. And you want to sit there with the group of unproven nobodies that WE have. Hell they have Moss and Welker already. Yes, the Pats might bring in Galloway as a #3 guy. You can damn sure rest assured they won't be signing him to a large contract, which is exactly what Holt would require. It's a completely different situation. Torry Holt isn't going anywhere to be a #3 receiver. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#27TheDominator Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 Yes, the Pats might bring in Galloway as a #3 guy. You can damn sure rest assured they won't be signing him to a large contract, which is exactly what Holt would require. It's a completely different situation. Torry Holt isn't going anywhere to be a #3 receiver. Why shouldn't they kick the tires? Almost any WR with NFL experience is going to be better than #3 on the Jets depth chart right now. Should they only check out ****ty cheap players? Guy is not a TO type cancer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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