Serious Question for Clemens supporters

[lancemehl]

IJ, Ecurb,JiF.....just say how retarded I am and make sure you DON'T answer the question, thanks, for the rest of us that really care about the team much more than the message board, I have a serious question about our QB situation.

Forget Ratliff, forget Cutler........

What excites you about a guy who was given an open competetion in 07 and was blown out by CHAD PENNINGTON!!!!!,then relieved Pennington and showed no signs of an upgrade AT ALL!

then in 08, the staff thought so much of the guy who blew Clemens out they kicked him out the door and got Favre, never once mentioning Clemens name.who had a horrible preseason.

Please, in a serious football argument, please, tell me, an average jets fan, not a Ratliff fan or a Cutler fan or a jetnation "top poster" fan. A JET fan, tell me what makes you think he can lead this team this year.

I won't even argue, i just honestly want to know, because I want to win and I am TRYING to wrap my arms around this 2nd round "Joey Harrington successor" I just can't.

[JMJ]

First of all, your post was incorrect. Clemens was NOT given an open competition in '07. Mangini announced Chad as his starter LONG before the season or training camp even began after Chad led us to the playoffs in '06.

Then, after taking over for a miserably ineffective Chad Pennington who got us off to a 1-7 start as starting QB, Clemens was 3-4 as a starter and could have easily had at least one more win (Washington) if Cotchery doesn't drop a game wining, FG range pass on 3rd down in OT, and potentially another win in Baltimore if JMac doesn't drop TWO TD passes in the 4th quarter. So just as he more effectively went 3-4 as a starter vs. Chad's 1-7 - he could have just as easily (two dropped passes away) been 5-2. AND, he did that whil only playing in one single game of his 7 with both Cotchery and Coles on the field. He played with only one of them in the lineup at a time the other 6 starts and even though one of them was there in those 6 games, they were playing hurt and not nearly as effective.

In all his starts, Clemens played his best football in crunch time. He wouldn't start out hot and then allow the defense to wear him down (like someone else we all know). He would start out rocky, learn how he was being attacked and then play his best football in the 4th quarters of games when it counts the most.

Are all Jets fans disapointed that he didn't seize the day and play so well last training camp that he was handed the job outright? Of course they are. But to act like the kid showed no promise is ridiculous.

I'm not a Clemens-supporter, I'm not a Ratliff-hater. Frankly I don't care which of the two of them wins the job as long as the one that does plays well. But Clemens did lead us to a 3-4 record when the games counted (and could have/should have been 5-2 if not for his receivers) and since all the Ratliff-lovers have nothing but his preaseason stats to point to as the object of their affection, Kellen's 2007 preseason stats were better than Ratliff's 2008 preseason stats.

[Klecko73isGod]

IJ, Ecurb,JiF.....just say how retarded I am and make sure you DON'T answer the question, thanks, for the rest of us that really care about the team much more than the message board, I have a serious question about our QB situation.

Forget Ratliff, forget Cutler........

What excites you about a guy who was given an open competetion in 07 and was blown out by CHAD PENNINGTON!!!!!,then relieved Pennington and showed no signs of an upgrade AT ALL!

then in 08, the staff thought so much of the guy who blew Clemens out they kicked him out the door and got Favre, never once mentioning Clemens name.who had a horrible preseason.

Please, in a serious football argument, please, tell me, an average jets fan, not a Ratliff fan or a Cutler fan or a jetnation "top poster" fan. A JET fan, tell me what makes you think he can lead this team this year.

I won't even argue, i just honestly want to know, because I want to win and I am TRYING to wrap my arms around this 2nd round "Joey Harrington successor" I just can't.

There was no open competition in '07, Chad was handed the job. In fact, he was named starter in March '07. Had there been an open competition in '07, Clemens would have won the job because he completely outplayed Pennington in the preseason.

He absolutely showed signs of an upgrade in '08. Chad was 1-8 as the starter with than team, Clemens was 3-4. 3-4, 1-8 which is better.

Based on your posts, I have to question whether you actually follow this team.

[JiF]

I have never said you were retarded, just certifiably insane. This thread however, actually makes some sense, good job buddy!!!!

I am a supporter of anyone on this team. Unlike you, I dont have favorites or agendas. My hope is that a 2nd round pick that we blew on Kellen Clemens actually works out for us and he can become the player we drafted him to be because we passed on 3 prospects in that draft, 1 of which we are now apparently trying to trade for...

I seriously could careless who our QB is, as long as he plays well. I laugh at all this Brett Ratliff nonsense because just as many people that have their heads up his ass for a couple of good throws in preseason are ready to write off Kellen because he couldn't beat out Chad in his rookie season. And didn't impress in his first couple of starts in the league after Chad had a typical odd year debacle. These same people dont care about the fact that he was playing behind the worst OL I have ever witnessed, he had nobody to throw to and had a RB that produced 1 TD on the season.

For the record, I wasn't here at the time, but I knew he wouldn't beat out Chadwick last year. As a matter of fact, I predicted Chad winning his 2nd CBPOY award. Chad is a competitor, you knew he was going to give everything to keep his starting position. He is a veteran and a former 1st round pick, as bad as he sucks, he is a coach's dream because of his work ethic, leadership and accuracy. Then he becomes their nightmare when its all on the line and he chokes yet again.

Bottom line is, I saw enough in Kellen to think that he should have a legitimate shot behind a solid oline with a running game. It worries me that none of our Qb's have any real weapons to speak of, but I think a safety belt like Keller and the sure hand of Cotch, that he could manage that game enough to get us some wins.

BTW, Chad Henne cant beat him out, does that mean he sucks as well and the Dolphags should give up on him?

[Klecko73isGod]

I have never said you were retarded, just certifiably insane. This thread however, actually makes some sense, good job buddy!!!!

I am a supporter of anyone on this team. Unlike you, I dont have favorites or agendas. My hope is that a 2nd round pick that we blew on Kellen Clemens actually works out for us and he can become the player we drafted him to be because we passed on 3 prospects in that draft, 1 of which we are now apparently trying to trade for...

I seriously could careless who our QB is, as long as he plays well. I laugh at all this Brett Ratliff nonsense because just as many people that have their heads up his ass for a couple of good throws in preseason are ready to write off Kellen because he couldn't beat out Chad in his rookie season. And didn't impress in his first couple of starts in the league after Chad had a typical odd year debacle. These same people dont care about the fact that he was playing behind the worst OL I have ever witnessed, he had nobody to throw to and had a RB that produced 1 TD on the season.

For the record, I wasn't here at the time, but I knew he wouldn't beat out Chadwick last year. As a matter of fact, I predicted Chad winning his 2nd CBPOY award. Chad is a competitor, you knew he was going to give everything to keep his starting position. He is a veteran and a former 1st round pick, as bad as he sucks, he is a coach's dream because of his work ethic, leadership and accuracy. Then he becomes their nightmare when its all on the line and he chokes yet again.

Bottom line is, I saw enough in Kellen to think that he should have a legitimate shot behind a solid oline with a running game. It worries me that none of our Qb's have any real weapons to speak of, but I think a safety belt like Keller and the sure hand of Cotch, that he could manage that game enough to get us some wins.

BTW, Chad Henne cant beat him out, does that mean he sucks as well and the Dolphags should give up on him?

Actually, he makes no sense in this post because his entire premise is false and based on events that did not transpire.

[JiF]

Actually, he makes no sense in this post because his entire premise is false and based on events that did not transpire.

I didnt want to point that out...because unlike his other threads, you can actually form an opinion about the topic and discuss it at length. The over all topic is relevant. Most of his other threads are so out there I dont even know why I even opened them.

[Aten]

Clemens has the most experience and the best tools. That the Ratliff supporters are so much more certain of their guy than the Clemens supporters are of theirs doesn't make him better, it makes you crazy.

[lancemehl]

Sorry, Sorry, you are right, I meant 06, when Mangini first got here and Chad's career was in question. Mangini said noone will be handed anything and Chad rose to the occasion.

YES in 07, after getting 4-12 talent to the playoffs, he had to be handed the job.

I mixed up the dates, but actually the premise is the same.

and FROM the usual insults i see your points, The fact that Chad,at his lowest point came into the 06 season and won the job handily speaks volumes of Chad's will and less of Clemens incompetence.

Again, as I've always said, I come to this board to discuss with,debate with, and learn from

the best Jet fans in the world.

But PLEASE DON'T QUESTION WHETHER I FOLLOW THE TEAM, that's insulting.

Maybe JiF is right, I'm insane, like all of us.

I MIXED up a date, SORRY, the question remains.

[lancemehl]

Clemens has the most experience and the best tools. That the Ratliff supporters are so much more certain of their guy than the Clemens supporters are of theirs doesn't make him better, it makes you crazy.

whoa, i kindly asked no Ratliff! lol he has nothing to do with this. IT isn't Ratliff vs. Clemens, it's THE F%$KING JETS!!! THEY ARE BOTH JETS!!!

[Klecko73isGod]

Sorry, Sorry, you are right, I meant 06, when Mangini first got here and Chad's career was in question. Mangini said noone will be handed anything and Chad rose to the occasion.

YES in 07, after getting 4-12 talent to the playoffs, he had to be handed the job.

I mixed up the dates, but actually the premise is the same.

and FROM the usual insults i see your points, The fact that Chad,at his lowest point came into the 06 season and won the job handily speaks volumes of Chad's will and less of Clemens incompetence.

Again, as I've always said, I come to this board to discuss with,debate with, and learn from

the best Jet fans in the world.

But PLEASE DON'T QUESTION WHETHER I FOLLOW THE TEAM, that's insulting.

Maybe JiF is right, I'm insane, like all of us.

I MIXED up a date, SORRY, the question remains.

No, the premise is not the same.

Now you are asking why Clemens didn't beat out two former first round draft picks for the starting job when he was a rookie!

Plus, if you are going to answer your own question with some greasy Chadlove, why do you expect us to even bother?

[Klecko73isGod]

whoa, i kindly asked no Ratliff! lol he has nothing to do with this. IT isn't Ratliff vs. Clemens, it's THE F%$KING JETS!!! THEY ARE BOTH JETS!!!

Good point. Why the hell do you hate Clemens so much?

[JMJ]

Sorry, Sorry, you are right, I meant 06, when Mangini first got here and Chad's career was in question. Mangini said noone will be handed anything and Chad rose to the occasion.

YES in 07, after getting 4-12 talent to the playoffs, he had to be handed the job.

I mixed up the dates, but actually the premise is the same.

and FROM the usual insults i see your points, The fact that Chad,at his lowest point came into the 06 season and won the job handily speaks volumes of Chad's will and less of Clemens incompetence.

Again, as I've always said, I come to this board to discuss with,debate with, and learn from

the best Jet fans in the world.

But PLEASE DON'T QUESTION WHETHER I FOLLOW THE TEAM, that's insulting.

Maybe JiF is right, I'm insane, like all of us.

I MIXED up a date, SORRY, the question remains.

Kellen was a rookie who hadn't taken a snap from center in nearly 9 months due to breaking his ankle while Chad was an 8 year NFL veteran who is a coach's practice dream.

Kellen not winning the job vs. an 8 year veteran in his rookie year means he was incompetent?

[Aten]

whoa, i kindly asked no Ratliff! lol he has nothing to do with this. IT isn't Ratliff vs. Clemens, it's THE F%$KING JETS!!! THEY ARE BOTH JETS!!!

I skipped the part where everybody who's for Clemens has to equivocate because he has an actual track record and you declare victory because you're not under the same constraint.

[lancemehl]

Actually, he makes no sense in this post because his entire premise is false and based on events that did not transpire.

I mixed up 06 and 07. There was an open competition in 06 when Pennington had one foot in the grave, then led a crap team to the playoffs, i guess that speaks to Penny's heart.

07, they had to give it to Chad. Clemens and chad sucked that year because no line and no defense(no matter how much "what if" we play)

I admitted a flaw, a year off. The question remains,but i figured it would just be a LM bashing.Sorry.

I didnt want to point that out...because unlike his other threads, you can actually form an opinion about the topic and discuss it at length. The over all topic is relevant. Most of his other threads are so out there I dont even know why I even opened them.

A little harsh there, huh, JiF, If you go back a torture yourself by reading any random ten threads i started, I think you'll find them to be quite clear and worthy of debate, maybe you don't agree, but these terms like "retarded", (insane, i'm fine with or i wouldn't be typing this right now), but to question whether i follow the team and all that.

Come on. Instead of opening a thread just to say I'm a fool and add nothing of Jet value, just skip by it. Some posters here,in fact,many,actually disagree with me, with no name calling, and back it up with facts and opinions of their own, and I respect them greatly for it, because they showed me a different perspective, and were civil at the same time. Many time I admit I was wrong and thank that person for showing me that.

We all love the Jets. We can discuss anything we want and the debate can get as heated as it can get, but name calling is kindergarten.

Keep the message board alive!!!!! LOL JiF, I am stating right here and now that you and many others here probably know more about our team than I do,which is why i come give my opinion.Free schooling.

[Klecko73isGod]

Am I the only one who thinks of this when they think of lancemehl:

I DON'T KNOW WHAT WE'RE YELLING ABOUT!!!

[JiF]

A little harsh there, huh, JiF, If you go back a torture yourself by reading any random ten threads i started, I think you'll find them to be quite clear and worthy of debate, maybe you don't agree, but these terms like "retarded", (insane, i'm fine with or i wouldn't be typing this right now), but to question whether i follow the team and all that.

Come on. Instead of opening a thread just to say I'm a fool and add nothing of Jet value, just skip by it. Some posters here,in fact,many,actually disagree with me, with no name calling, and back it up with facts and opinions of their own, and I respect them greatly for it, because they showed me a different perspective, and were civil at the same time. Many time I admit I was wrong and thank that person for showing me that.

We all love the Jets. We can discuss anything we want and the debate can get as heated as it can get, but name calling is kindergarten.

Keep the message board alive!!!!! LOL JiF, I am stating right here and now that you and many others here probably know more about our team than I do,which is why i come give my opinion.Free schooling.

Relax buddy, I am just busting your balls. Some of your threads are out there, like not in this galaxy train of thought. But its cool, I dont hate. Trust me, I am not exactly normal either.

I dont question your love for the Jets. That is abundantly clear. And I gave you a legitimate well thought answer to your question (and I do upon the chance that you start a thread that makes sense), you are just focusing on my poking and not my premise.

[#27TheDominator]

It wasn't '07. It was '08. Clemens was the frontrunner during the offseason and he was clearly losing out to Chad before the Favre deal. I don't see how you can act like he did well in '07. Clemens was simply bad. You can't give him credit for almost getting a tie with the Ravens. He played like **** that game. He played like **** against Pittsburgh too. There are plenty of reasons to think he'll be better (and better than Ratliff) but it doesn't seem like the FO is too confident in either of them.

[DoubleDown]

I posted this a couple of months back and still stand by it fully:

Clemens has been a disappointment since we drafted him. Jets actions concerning Clemens and his role on the team since being drafted:

Placed 3rd on depth chart behind Patrick Ramsey in 2006.

Not given a chance as starter in 2007 until season is completely lost with QB going 1-8.

Loses starting job and placed in competition with previously benched QB.

Developmental QB drafted in 2008.

Trade for Favre.

Put in competition for starting job amongst a couple of no name QB's.

Read the writing on the wall folks. The team has absolutely no confidence in a QB who was drafted in the 2nd round and has been in the system going on 4 years. The team is not willing to give Clemens a shot, and none of their moves suggest a long term plan with him as our starter.

[SayNoToDMC]

IJ, Ecurb,JiF.....just say how retarded I am and make sure you DON'T answer the question, thanks, for the rest of us that really care about the team much more than the message board, I have a serious question about our QB situation.

Forget Ratliff, forget Cutler........

What excites you about a guy who was given an open competetion in 07 and was blown out by CHAD PENNINGTON!!!!!,then relieved Pennington and showed no signs of an upgrade AT ALL!

then in 08, the staff thought so much of the guy who blew Clemens out they kicked him out the door and got Favre, never once mentioning Clemens name.who had a horrible preseason.

Please, in a serious football argument, please, tell me, an average jets fan, not a Ratliff fan or a Cutler fan or a jetnation "top poster" fan. A JET fan, tell me what makes you think he can lead this team this year.

I won't even argue, i just honestly want to know, because I want to win and I am TRYING to wrap my arms around this 2nd round "Joey Harrington successor" I just can't.

am I allowed to say how retarded you are?

Clemens could suck but he was put in a **** situation that no QB could have succeeded in. We don't know what we have in him or Ratliff. The real problem was getting Farve as a 1 year band aid who had no chance to win us a SB anyway and not knowing where we stand at QB now. Which is exactly what I said would be the problem last year when everyone wanted to bring father time here. You seem to think Ratliff is going to come in and win us a championship but you're basing it on nothing but his performance against guys that are mainly practice squad/CFL/Arena League/McDonalds employees last year. Give it a rest

[Bleedin Green]

First of all, your post was incorrect. Clemens was NOT given an open competition in '07. Mangini announced Chad as his starter LONG before the season or training camp even began after Chad led us to the playoffs in '06.

Then, after taking over for a miserably ineffective Chad Pennington who got us off to a 1-7 start as starting QB, Clemens was 3-4 as a starter and could have easily had at least one more win (Washington) if Cotchery doesn't drop a game wining, FG range pass on 3rd down in OT, and potentially another win in Baltimore if JMac doesn't drop TWO TD passes in the 4th quarter. So just as he more effectively went 3-4 as a starter vs. Chad's 1-7 - he could have just as easily (two dropped passes away) been 5-2. AND, he did that whil only playing in one single game of his 7 with both Cotchery and Coles on the field. He played with only one of them in the lineup at a time the other 6 starts and even though one of them was there in those 6 games, they were playing hurt and not nearly as effective.

In all his starts, Clemens played his best football in crunch time. He wouldn't start out hot and then allow the defense to wear him down (like someone else we all know). He would start out rocky, learn how he was being attacked and then play his best football in the 4th quarters of games when it counts the most.

Are all Jets fans disapointed that he didn't seize the day and play so well last training camp that he was handed the job outright? Of course they are. But to act like the kid showed no promise is ridiculous.

I'm not a Clemens-supporter, I'm not a Ratliff-hater. Frankly I don't care which of the two of them wins the job as long as the one that does plays well. But Clemens did lead us to a 3-4 record when the games counted (and could have/should have been 5-2 if not for his receivers) and since all the Ratliff-lovers have nothing but his preaseason stats to point to as the object of their affection, Kellen's 2007 preseason stats were better than Ratliff's 2008 preseason stats.

You know I hate to correct you JMJ, but I see a few minors things I'd like to comment on in this post (although I do agree with most of it).

First, not only was Chad named the starter back in January 2007 as you pointed out, but still in the 2007 training camp and preseason, Clemens FAR outplayed Chad based on every single report out there. Granted in 2008 Chad was reportedly outplaying Clemens early in camp before things started to even out a little, but that ended up all being meaningless anyway. If there was an open competition in 2007, Clemens would've started Week 1.

The only other points I'd like to correct you on was Baker was the one who dropped the OT pass in Washington and unless I'm thinking of the wrong game, you forgot to mention that in the same game Brad Smith dropped the game winner at the end of regulation right before the Jets went for the game-tying FG to send it to OT. And in the Baltimore game, you also forget that not only did JMac drop 2 game-tying passes, but Coles dropped one as well.

But in the end, I agree, I don't care who wins the competition. I just want ONE good QB out of the group, be it Clemens, Ratliff or Ainge. As you said, Clemens in 2007 preseason was more impressive than Ratliff in 2008 preseason (against better competition as Clemens was playing against either starters or #2s). I'm just not ready to write the guy off because he did show some flashes and pretty much had no support. An awful OL, tons of dropped passes, injured starting WRs, etc. No doubt he still needs to raise his level of play from 2007 in order to be the answer, but nobody can objectively say they know he can't. If he loses out in camp then so be it, but if he wins, I hope he plays like a HOFer.

[#27TheDominator]

I posted this a couple of months back and still stand by it fully:

Clemens has been a disappointment since we drafted him. Jets actions concerning Clemens and his role on the team since being drafted:

Placed 3rd on depth chart behind Patrick Ramsey in 2006.

Not given a chance as starter in 2007 until season is completely lost with QB going 1-8.

Loses starting job and placed in competition with previously benched QB.

Developmental QB drafted in 2008.

Trade for Favre.

Put in competition for starting job amongst a couple of no name QB's.

Read the writing on the wall folks. The team has absolutely no confidence in a QB who was drafted in the 2nd round and has been in the system going on 4 years. The team is not willing to give Clemens a shot, and none of their moves suggest a long term plan with him as our starter.

I agree. One move does suggest that they are okay with Clemens/Ratliff/Ainge. That is keeping Brian Schottenheimer.

[JiF]

I posted this a couple of months back and still stand by it fully:

Clemens has been a disappointment since we drafted him. Jets actions concerning Clemens and his role on the team since being drafted:

Placed 3rd on depth chart behind Patrick Ramsey in 2006.

Not given a chance as starter in 2007 until season is completely lost with QB going 1-8.

Loses starting job and placed in competition with previously benched QB.

Developmental QB drafted in 2008.

Trade for Favre.

Put in competition for starting job amongst a couple of no name QB's.

Read the writing on the wall folks. The team has absolutely no confidence in a QB who was drafted in the 2nd round and has been in the system going on 4 years. The team is not willing to give Clemens a shot, and none of their moves suggest a long term plan with him as our starter.

Placed 3rd on Depth chart behind two former first round picks, one with 5 years of starting experience, the other with a year of experience. Not to mention, it was his rookie year and he hadnt played ball in almost a year because of an injury.

Not given the chance to start in 07 because Chadwick was handed the keys in March. Not given a chance to start after a 1-7 showing by Chadwick because we had an incomptent coach who is no longer here.

Never lost his starting job to perviously benched Qb. They traded for a future HOF Qb before that technically ever happened.

Dont see the big deal in a new HC wanting a bunch of unproven Qb's to compete for the job, I actually find it to be noble. Lets see what he does.

If the team has absolutely no confidence and is not willing to give him a shot then a) why is he here, and why is he even allowed to compete for the job?

[JMJ]

You know I hate to correct you JMJ, but I see a few minors things I'd like to comment on in this post (although I do agree with most of it).

First, not only was Chad named the starter back in January 2007 as you pointed out, but still in the 2007 training camp and preseason, Clemens FAR outplayed Chad based on every single report out there. Granted in 2008 Chad was reportedly outplaying Clemens early in camp before things started to even out a little, but that ended up all being meaningless anyway. If there was an open competition in 2007, Clemens would've started Week 1.

The only other points I'd like to correct you on was Baker was the one who dropped the OT pass in Washington and unless I'm thinking of the wrong game, you forgot to mention that in the same game Brad Smith dropped the game winner at the end of regulation right before the Jets went for the game-tying FG to send it to OT. And in the Baltimore game, you also forget that not only did JMac drop 2 game-tying passes, but Coles dropped one as well.

But in the end, I agree, I don't care who wins the competition. I just want ONE good QB out of the group, be it Clemens, Ratliff or Ainge. As you said, Clemens in 2007 preseason was more impressive than Ratliff in 2008 preseason (against better competition as Clemens was playing against either starters or #2s). I'm just not ready to write the guy off because he did show some flashes and pretty much had no support. An awful OL, tons of dropped passes, injured starting WRs, etc. No doubt he still needs to raise his level of play from 2007 in order to be the answer, but nobody can objectively say they know he can't. If he loses out in camp then so be it, but if he wins, I hope he plays like a HOFer.

No, it was Cotchery.

3-7-WAS 39 (13:23) (Shotgun) 11-K.Clemens pass incomplete short left to 89-J.Cotchery.

8 yard out pattern on 3 and 7. Ball hit Jerricho directly in the hands and he inexcusably dropped it. It is the kind of pass that Jerricho would catch 97 out of 100 times.

[DoubleDown]

I agree. One move does suggest that they are okay with Clemens/Ratliff/Ainge. That is keeping Brian Schottenheimer.

Being "okay" with our trio is one thing, having them penciled in as long term starters and building the team around them is another.

Clemens is going into his contract year. If we are serious about keeping him on the roster as either a backup or starter, we would probably be working on an extension at this point.

Simply put, I don't see any objective evidence of the team having Clemens in their long term plans. He's had his chances and has not capitalized yet. Maybe this season will be different, but I'm not counting on it.

[JiF]

You know I hate to correct you JMJ, but I see a few minors things I'd like to comment on in this post (although I do agree with most of it).

First, not only was Chad named the starter back in January 2007 as you pointed out, but still in the 2007 training camp and preseason, Clemens FAR outplayed Chad based on every single report out there. Granted in 2008 Chad was reportedly outplaying Clemens early in camp before things started to even out a little, but that ended up all being meaningless anyway. If there was an open competition in 2007, Clemens would've started Week 1.

The only other points I'd like to correct you on was Baker was the one who dropped the OT pass in Washington and unless I'm thinking of the wrong game, you forgot to mention that in the same game Brad Smith dropped the game winner at the end of regulation right before the Jets went for the game-tying FG to send it to OT. And in the Baltimore game, you also forget that not only did JMac drop 2 game-tying passes, but Coles dropped one as well.

But in the end, I agree, I don't care who wins the competition. I just want ONE good QB out of the group, be it Clemens, Ratliff or Ainge. As you said, Clemens in 2007 preseason was more impressive than Ratliff in 2008 preseason (against better competition as Clemens was playing against either starters or #2s). I'm just not ready to write the guy off because he did show some flashes and pretty much had no support. An awful OL, tons of dropped passes, injured starting WRs, etc. No doubt he still needs to raise his level of play from 2007 in order to be the answer, but nobody can objectively say they know he can't. If he loses out in camp then so be it, but if he wins, I hope he plays like a HOFer.

You are, it was definitely Cotch who dropped that wide open pass. The ball was about thigh high, not thrown perfectly, but nontheless a ball easily caught by a pop warner player.

[Bleedin Green]

I posted this a couple of months back and still stand by it fully:

Clemens has been a disappointment since we drafted him. Jets actions concerning Clemens and his role on the team since being drafted:

Placed 3rd on depth chart behind Patrick Ramsey in 2006.

Not given a chance as starter in 2007 until season is completely lost with QB going 1-8.

Loses starting job and placed in competition with previously benched QB.

Developmental QB drafted in 2008.

Trade for Favre.

Put in competition for starting job amongst a couple of no name QB's.

Read the writing on the wall folks. The team has absolutely no confidence in a QB who was drafted in the 2nd round and has been in the system going on 4 years. The team is not willing to give Clemens a shot, and none of their moves suggest a long term plan with him as our starter.

While these are all valid points, Mangini is a ****ing idiot so I'm not going to take any actions of his to mean a damn thing about any of our players. This is the same guy who said every position is always an open competition and then names Chad the starter after yet another embarrassing playoff loss, this time to the Patriots in the wild card.

[Bleedin Green]

You are, it was definitely Cotch who dropped that wide open pass. The ball was about thigh high, not thrown perfectly, but nontheless a ball easily caught by a pop warner player.

It was bound to happen eventually.

For some reason I could've sworn it was Baker though. Oh well, fact still remains our WRs were dog crap (not to mention all hurt) that year.

[JiF]

It was bound to happen eventually.

For some reason I could've sworn it was Baker though. Oh well, fact still remains our WRs were dog crap (not to mention all hurt) that year.

Get over yourself, zombie.

And yes, the fact does still remain.

[Bleedin Green]

No, it was Cotchery.

3-7-WAS 39 (13:23) (Shotgun) 11-K.Clemens pass incomplete short left to 89-J.Cotchery.

8 yard out pattern on 3 and 7. Ball hit Jerricho directly in the hands and he inexcusably dropped it. It is the kind of pass that Jerricho would catch 97 out of 100 times.

Well there you go. Was that the same game that Smith dropped the game-winner in the endzone at the end of regulation or was that the Pittsburgh game? Apparently that disaster of a season has merged into one giant nightmare for me.

[JMJ]

Well there you go. Was that the same game that Smith dropped the game-winner in the endzone at the end of regulation or was that the Pittsburgh game? Apparently that disaster of a season has merged into one giant nightmare for me.

Haha.

So the only thing you "corrected" in my post actually turned out to be incorrect and I was right all along.

Can I POTW nominate this?

[DoubleDown]

Placed 3rd on Depth chart behind two former first round picks, one with 5 years of starting experience, the other with a year of experience. Not to mention, it was his rookie year and he hadnt played ball in almost a year because of an injury.

Not given the chance to start in 07 because Chadwick was handed the keys in March. Not given a chance to start after a 1-7 showing by Chadwick because we had an incomptent coach who is no longer here.

Never lost his starting job to perviously benched Qb. They traded for a future HOF Qb before that technically ever happened.

Dont see the big deal in a new HC wanting a bunch of unproven Qb's to compete for the job, I actually find it to be noble. Lets see what he does.

If the team has absolutely no confidence and is not willing to give him a shot then a) why is he here, and why is he even allowed to compete for the job?

I will concede on the third string during rookie season point. It's a common NFL practice, I'm simply pointing out that Clemens was not viewed as a "special" player at that point.

You can blame it on the coach, but if Clemens had established himself in practice to his coaches and teammates, I believe he would have replaced Chad while we still had some playoff hopes.

He most certainly did lose his starting job. He ended the 2007 season as starter behind a healthy Pennington. He was then demoted and placed into a competition for the start of the 2008 season before we traded for Favre.

The competition now is natural...for unproven QB's! That kinda makes my point, Clemens is a 2nd round pick going into his 4th year and he is still has not proven himself. He has gotten chances to do so whether you admit it or not.

He's here because he's still on his rookie contract and he is relatively cheap.

[JMJ]

Well there you go. Was that the same game that Smith dropped the game-winner in the endzone at the end of regulation or was that the Pittsburgh game? Apparently that disaster of a season has merged into one giant nightmare for me.

Smith had 2 HUGE drops in this game, but none in the endzone.

One on a 30 yarder where he was WIDE OPEN, another on a 10+ yard first down attempt.

Both were in the 2nd half.

[Bleedin Green]

Haha.

So the only thing you "corrected" in my post actually turned out to be incorrect and I was right all along.

Can I POTW nominate this?

I originally wrote that post only intending to correct your exclusion of Clemens whooping the pants off of Chad in the 2007 preseason then I just thought of random crap to add on. Apparently it was wrong though. Oh well, **** happens. Doesn't really matter, Chad still sucks, Clemens still was 100 times better, Brett Favre is still retired and the rest of the guys still haven't done a damn thing in their careers.

[Bleedin Green]

Smith had 2 HUGE drops in this game, but none in the endzone.

One on a 30 yarder where he was WIDE OPEN, another on a 10+ yard first down attempt.

Both were in the 2nd half.

Who the hell remembers this ****? Good God.

[ZachEY]

Why support Clemens?

Because based on anything we've seen, he's currently the best QB on the New York Jets roster.

Another brain-buster.