Mafia Game 3 - Not All in the Family..

[Doggin94it]

Before I vote....Do scum voting on a night kill work by the same standard innocents do? Need X % of votes for the same person?

Yes and no - scum can communicate off-thread, so they talk amongst themselves and decide who to kill. Then they PM the name to the mod.

[Doggin94it]

You're next pal.

Whatever. That's the thing about newbies I guess - they think the mafia will make the moves the newbie would make.

Here's the thing, JMJ (and if you're scum with an experienced teammate, you already know this, but . . .)

When a teammate is under attack, mafia members don't leap to his defense. They do gleefully join in attacking him. You know why? Because if you are defending a mafia member, everyone is suspicious that you may be mafia. Bleedin' could have told you that. Crusher still can. In fact, just about any experienced player in this game should be able to (though SMC is pretending otherwise).

Defending your own is a newbie mistake (the fact that you're so convinced I'm mafia because I didn't vote Irish should be proof of that).

Meh. Lynch SMC, and if he's innocent, you can kill me next.

[Jets Babe]

Whew, I got a lot of reading to do...lol

[Doggin94it]

Fresh off finding the carcass of a roleless innocent in front of the main building of the compound, but bursting with confidence from their victorious first day, the family chooses to double down and move quick this time. No need for the laborious debate that defined day 1. They've got it all figured out, right? No need to even wait for a defense.

Right?

They elect to arm a soldier with an RPG on the roof top, targeting the compound entrance. What better way to send fear down the spines of every rat, stoolie or copper in their midst then to whack out the second straight threat to the family with BANG! As Carlo J. Pizza's BMW turned the corner into the complex, the trigger was pulled and a fantastic explosion erupted just after entering the compound.

The family was so impressed with themselves that they failed to notice the legal brief which had been delivered earlier that morning, addressed to one Carlo J. Pizza's Esq.

Carlo J. Pizza's (Norway) Family Lawyer (Doctor) has been whacked out

Night Actions are due by 9pm Saturday

You stupid mothers. You didn't even give the guy a chance to reveal?? Why - because EY said not to?

For the love of god, the finder needs to view EY soon. And if he's guilty, reveal. I know you die the next day, but it gives us info, and we can follow the evidence to the rest of the mafia. What we can't do is be led around by the nose by Yellin (again) if he's scum.

[Doggin94it]

If you feel that's right.

There's no way I could have known he was Dr... And I still stand by every point I made. He acted scummy... no doubt.

It would have been good if he was able to roleclaim... or explain it futher... but every move he made, I'd do the same thing again.

Really, you'd speed lynch him without allowing him to defend, again?

Newbs, learn the lesson - never lynch anyone (no matter how scummy they seem) without giving them an opportunity to defend/roleclaim.

[JustInFudge]

Really, you'd speed lynch him without allowing him to defend, again?

Newbs, learn the lesson - never lynch anyone (no matter how scummy they seem) without giving them an opportunity to defend/roleclaim.

+ 1. Thats a scummy thing to say EY.

I just had the chance to catch up and I gotta say, WTF!!!???!!! Why did you morons not let him defend himself? Plain old stupid, really I cant believe that I didnt have a chance to post last night and I wake up to this. Not good. Whats distrubing is that it was led by experienced players that should know better.

[JMJ]

Really, you'd speed lynch him without allowing him to defend, again?

Newbs, learn the lesson - never lynch anyone (no matter how scummy they seem) without giving them an opportunity to defend/roleclaim.

That's allowed? Norway could have come out and said, "Don't kill me. I'm the lawyer."?

[Doggin94it]

That's allowed? Norway could have come out and said, "Don't kill me. I'm the lawyer."?

Yes. Did you really not see that in the other games?

I'm thinking that until you get a better grounding in how the game is played, you need to question your instincts more.

Either that, or you're scum being coached to act clueless.

[Jets Things]

That's allowed? Norway could have come out and said, "Don't kill me. I'm the lawyer."?

Of course its allowed!! Where do you think my asinine Peter Petrelli nonsense came from?!

[JMJ]

Yes. Did you really not see that in the other games?

I'm thinking that until you get a better grounding in how the game is played, you need to question your instincts more.

Either that, or you're scum being coached to act clueless.

Why is it so hard for people to believe that a newb playing his first ever mafia game really doesn't know these things? Would you rather me not ask questions and continue to be clueless moving forward? Or maybe it would be better if instead I acted like a know it all and just made ill-informed decisions?

I've come a long way from day 1 until now whether it shows or not. And moving forward it is far more likely than not that I will ask additional questions. It would be a shame if game veterans really couldn't tell the difference between an admitted and obvious newb and scum.

[JustInFudge]

Why is it so hard for people to believe that a newb playing his first ever mafia game really doesn't know these things? Would you rather me not ask questions and continue to be clueless moving forward? Or maybe it would be better if instead I acted like a know it all and just made ill-informed decisions?

I've come a long way from day 1 until now whether it shows or not. And moving forward it is far more likely than not that I will ask additional questions. It would be a shame if game veterans really couldn't tell the difference between an admitted and obvious newb and scum.

Weak.

If you have been following this game, nevermind the others, you would have known that was possible.

[ZachEY]

Really, you'd speed lynch him without allowing him to defend, again?

Newbs, learn the lesson - never lynch anyone (no matter how scummy they seem) without giving them an opportunity to defend/roleclaim.

+ 1. Thats a scummy thing to say EY.

I just had the chance to catch up and I gotta say, WTF!!!???!!! Why did you morons not let him defend himself? Plain old stupid, really I cant believe that I didnt have a chance to post last night and I wake up to this. Not good. Whats distrubing is that it was led by experienced players that should know better.

I made the case. I didnt cast 8 votes behind me. I stand by my logic and would make the same case over and over again.

This is how I play the game, I find what I believe in, and I go for it. Sometimes for the good, others for the bad.

9 people decided they didn't need to hear from him (as slats voted too), so he was killed. Could I have put a stop to the train, perhaps. But to act like I single handedly, and knowingly killed the Dr. on my own is disingenuous.

[JMJ]

Weak.

If you have been following this game, nevermind the others, you would have known that was possible.

Skimmed the first 10-15 pages of the others (which I now know wasn't enough) and as for this one I figured "role reveals" meant after people where whacked we see their roles, like what we've seen thus far with Irish, Bleedin, and Norway.

And even if I did have an inkling that maybe they meant during-game role reveals, I am trying to keep my basic learning questions to a minimum since I have already learned (and am learning again) that for some reason they make you (me) look suspicious to others.

Like I said a post or two earlier, why people feel a first-time player having these types of questions is suspicious is beyond me. And as I also said, if veterans can't tell the difference between a newb asking questions and scum then that says more about the veterans than it does me the newb.

[Dan.]

You stupid mothers. You didn't even give the guy a chance to reveal?? Why - because EY said not to?

For the love of god, the finder needs to view EY soon. And if he's guilty, reveal. I know you die the next day, but it gives us info, and we can follow the evidence to the rest of the mafia. What we can't do is be led around by the nose by Yellin (again) if he's scum.

I'm very confused by this reasoning. You're advocating that we should lose our investigator, immediately after losing the doctor? Why wouldn't we just lynch EY? I think it seems more effective for our investigator to hold off on revealing so soon, and gather more information about players who aren't so out in the open yet.

Also, how does this play into your previous claim that something clicked with a previous post and you've figured out EY is innocent? Why can't you share that information?

[ZachEY]

You stupid mothers. You didn't even give the guy a chance to reveal?? Why - because EY said not to?

I did not say not to. I presented a case.

Does this fall under lynch all liars? Or, do you get a pass on this one?

[Jets Things]

I'm very confused by this reasoning. You're advocating that we should lose our investigator, immediately after losing the doctor? Why wouldn't we just lynch EY? I think it seems more effective for our investigator to hold off on revealing so soon, and gather more information about players who aren't so out in the open yet.

Also, how does this play into your previous claim that something clicked with a previous post and you've figured out EY is innocent? Why can't you share that information?

Was thinking the same thing, but doggin knows better than to divulge his findings during the night phase.

[Dan.]

Was thinking the same thing, but doggin knows better than to divulge his findings during the night phase.

Right ... which is frustrating. It almost feels like a trap to me, though. For example, maybe Doggin knows EY is going to come up innocent under investigation, so the investigation will be a waste and he can trick the investigator into revealing too early. Or even if EY comes up guilty, why reveal only that result? Why not wait until more people have been investigated, too?

[Jets Things]

Right ... which is frustrating. It almost feels like a trap to me, though. For example, maybe Doggin knows EY is going to come up innocent under investigation, so the investigation will be a waste and he can trick the investigator into revealing too early. Or even if EY comes up guilty, why reveal only that result? Why not wait until more people have been investigated, too?

You're preaching to the choir.

[Doggin94it]

Why is it so hard for people to believe that a newb playing his first ever mafia game really doesn't know these things? Would you rather me not ask questions and continue to be clueless moving forward? Or maybe it would be better if instead I acted like a know it all and just made ill-informed decisions?

I've come a long way from day 1 until now whether it shows or not. And moving forward it is far more likely than not that I will ask additional questions. It would be a shame if game veterans really couldn't tell the difference between an admitted and obvious newb and scum.

It's not. What you need to realize, JMJ, is that while it's certainly possible that you are what you seem - a clueless, getting clue-ier (is that a word? If not, it should be), newb - it's also possible that you are mafia scum taking advantage of the idea that, as a newb, you would be clueless. At the end of the game, or after you are lynched or nightkilled, we'll know for sure. But until then, we need to keep both possibilities in mind, and analyze your play with both possibilities in mind.

[Jets Voice of Reason]

+ 1. Thats a scummy thing to say EY.

I just had the chance to catch up and I gotta say, WTF!!!???!!! Why did you morons not let him defend himself? Plain old stupid, really I cant believe that I didnt have a chance to post last night and I wake up to this. Not good. Whats distrubing is that it was led by experienced players that should know better.

Is that why you posted last night in another thread?

[Doggin94it]

I made the case. I didnt cast 8 votes behind me. I stand by my logic and would make the same case over and over again.

This is how I play the game, I find what I believe in, and I go for it. Sometimes for the good, others for the bad.

9 people decided they didn't need to hear from him (as slats voted too), so he was killed. Could I have put a stop to the train, perhaps. But to act like I single handedly, and knowingly killed the Dr. on my own is disingenuous.

See, here's the thing. There's no perhaps about it. Everyone was following your lead, and if you said "people, hold off until he gets a chance to defend himself", or better yet, had also unvoted to make sure he got that chance, we wouldn't be in this situation.

It's your silence as the disaster was unfolding, not your case on Norway or the initial vote, that's got people (well, me at least) much more concerned about you.

And to act like people are suspicious because of your initial vote, or "acting like you singlehandedly and knowingly killed the Dr. on your own", is disingenuous.

[Jets Voice of Reason]

I agree with investigating ey tonight if it has not already been done but with a dead doc why would we want to get our finder killed? Say ey comes up guilty, we still have at least two scum members to go with a dead doc and cop. that is terrible doggin. I don't buy that. The cop is well hidden and shouldn't reveal unless he has a few meaningful results IMO.

[SMC]

EY is taking heat here. I, for one, was not following his lead.

I came to the same conclusion after Irish was lynched (and posted it & re-posted it). I still believe there are Rats in the 5 that voted for me and those who avoided voting for Irish.

[Doggin94it]

I did not say not to. I presented a case.

Does this fall under lynch all liars? Or, do you get a pass on this one?

You strongly implied that the case was airtight, that the town should lynch him quickly, and combining that with the "talking things over just gives scum a chance to confuse us" vibe from last night, that set the conditions for the speed lynch. And you certainly could have (but didn't) step up to say "stop, let him defend himself"

"Lynch him quickly" was the impression I got from your posts. And I doubt I'm the only one.

[JustInFudge]

I made the case. I didnt cast 8 votes behind me. I stand by my logic and would make the same case over and over again.

This is how I play the game, I find what I believe in, and I go for it. Sometimes for the good, others for the bad.

9 people decided they didn't need to hear from him (as slats voted too), so he was killed. Could I have put a stop to the train, perhaps. But to act like I single handedly, and knowingly killed the Dr. on my own is disingenuous.

Its not like you stepped in and said "hey, wait guys, this train is moving fast". Nobody did, it was just weird. Not that you would because it was your case, but still. SMC and you are both experienced players...you know that is not good logic to lynch when someone doesnt have chance to defend himself.

Skimmed the first 10-15 pages of the others (which I now know wasn't enough) and as for this one I figured "role reveals" meant after people where whacked we see their roles, like what we've seen thus far with Irish, Bleedin, and Norway.

And even if I did have an inkling that maybe they meant during-game role reveals, I am trying to keep my basic learning questions to a minimum since I have already learned (and am learning again) that for some reason they make you (me) look suspicious to others.

Like I said a post or two earlier, why people feel a first-time player having these types of questions is suspicious is beyond me. And as I also said, if veterans can't tell the difference between a newb asking questions and scum then that says more about the veterans than it does me the newb.

I am not saying your newbness is suspicious, I just took your for a more intelligent person.

[Vicious89x]

I'm voting for EY. I would hope the town would realize that even though he got one bad guy he just cost us our town doctor. Keeping him alive if he's a bad guy earns the baddies more time. He's gonna be a distraction for the rest of the game.

[Doggin94it]

I'm very confused by this reasoning. You're advocating that we should lose our investigator, immediately after losing the doctor? Why wouldn't we just lynch EY? I think it seems more effective for our investigator to hold off on revealing so soon, and gather more information about players who aren't so out in the open yet.

Also, how does this play into your previous claim that something clicked with a previous post and you've figured out EY is innocent? Why can't you share that information?

Because if he's innocent, then Yellin is a major asset to the town. On the other hand, if he's guilty, then he needs to go - and the damage of keeping him around after the finder knows he's guilty will probably screw us more than having the finder reveal, offing Yellin, and then losing the finder the next night.

You've got to look at it from a numbers perspective. Assuming there were 4 scum at the beginning of the game, losing Yellin would cut them down to 2 scum left. The finder would also tell us who he viewed as innocent, which would cut down the number of players left to lynch. In that situation, we likely win. Assuming there are 5 scum to start, there would be 3 left - more difficult, but still, the town would have the edge.

If Yellin stays alive as a guilty, and the finder gets NK'd before revealing, we're all screwed. Even if the finder stays alive, Yellin (if he's scum) could engineer more innocent deaths and confusion.

Basically, if Yellin is guilty, I think we gain more than we lose from the finder revealing. If anyone other than Yellin flips guilty, the finder should wait until they have 2 names before revealing. And obviously, if Yellin is innocent, the finder CANNOT reveal just to tell us that.

[ZachEY]

See, here's the thing. There's no perhaps about it. Everyone was following your lead, and if you said "people, hold off until he gets a chance to defend himself", or better yet, had also unvoted to make sure he got that chance, we wouldn't be in this situation.

It's your silence as the disaster was unfolding, not your case on Norway or the initial vote, that's got people (well, me at least) much more concerned about you.

And to act like people are suspicious because of your initial vote, or "acting like you singlehandedly and knowingly killed the Dr. on your own", is disingenuous.

I'm not saying people shouldn't be suspicious of me. I was the first vote, and made an (obviously strong) case, against a player who flipped Doctor. I'd be crazy to think everyone would quickly accept this as 'oopsie'. I would also expect a lot of people to be pissed at me.

But, further analysis of the case and it holds up. That's why I said I'd do it every time.

That said, I accept a lion's share of the blame for this, but not all of it. You yourself found the time to vote for SMC, express your concern about the speed of the lynch, but you didn't say anything either.

No one did. The town suffers, and it's in large part my fault. But I could not have known he was the Dr, we all know that, and for the 3rd or 4th time... I stand by my posts, and so did many others. I know you claim I was a leader, so everyone just listened. But that's not fair either. I don't ask for you to do what I say because I SAID IT. I ask only for you to do what I say if you believe in it. People did. This time, it didn't work out.

[JMJ]

I am not saying your newbness is suspicious, I just took your for a more intelligent person.

Them'z is fighting words punk.

[Doggin94it]

I'm very confused by this reasoning. You're advocating that we should lose our investigator, immediately after losing the doctor? Why wouldn't we just lynch EY? I think it seems more effective for our investigator to hold off on revealing so soon, and gather more information about players who aren't so out in the open yet.

Also, how does this play into your previous claim that something clicked with a previous post and you've figured out EY is innocent? Why can't you share that information?

Sorry, forgot to respond to this. Since it seems like we don't have a serial (only 1 death), I figure I was wrong.

Back on day 1, EY said that he was willing to vote for SMC, but that Irish "needed to go first" and "I know why".

Then he called for Dr. protection (which you should never do unless roled).

I thought that, combining the 2, he was saying that he had been assigned the role of "serial killer finder" (which, in some games, can be different from the general finder) - meaning that he knew there was a serial killer in the game, and was roled (and therefore it would be important for him to get doctor protection). The key was "Irish needs to go first" - because when a serial is active, the most important thing for the town is to kill the serial killer first. This is because if both the serial killer and mafia are in the game, then there will be two kills per night (one by the serial killer, one by the mafia). Since eliminating the serial killer drops it to one kill/night (since the mafia is still there, but the serial isn't), while eliminating a single mafioso does not (since both the serial and the rest of the mafia keep their separate kills), it would be important for the serial to die first.

But, since it appears that we don't have a serial in the game, it looks like I was wrong.

So yellin - what did you mean by saying that Irish needed to go first?

[Dan.]

Because if he's innocent, then Yellin is a major asset to the town. On the other hand, if he's guilty, then he needs to go - and the damage of keeping him around after the finder knows he's guilty will probably screw us more than having the finder reveal, offing Yellin, and then losing the finder the next night.

You've got to look at it from a numbers perspective. Assuming there were 4 scum at the beginning of the game, losing Yellin would cut them down to 2 scum left. The finder would also tell us who he viewed as innocent, which would cut down the number of players left to lynch. In that situation, we likely win. Assuming there are 5 scum to start, there would be 3 left - more difficult, but still, the town would have the edge.

If Yellin stays alive as a guilty, and the finder gets NK'd before revealing, we're all screwed. Even if the finder stays alive, Yellin (if he's scum) could engineer more innocent deaths and confusion.

Basically, if Yellin is guilty, I think we gain more than we lose from the finder revealing. If anyone other than Yellin flips guilty, the finder should wait until they have 2 names before revealing. And obviously, if Yellin is innocent, the finder CANNOT reveal just to tell us that.

Honestly, I think EY is too dangerous to be kept alive. I think we gain more by lynching him. There's always the chance that he'll come up innocent under investigation when he's actually guilty, and I think that's too big of a risk right now. Plus, even if he's innocent, who's to say his next big case won't be against another townie? I'm still concerned by the sway he seems to have over everyone. (And if I were EY, I'd be worried by the number of people who quickly followed my lead before I'd even presented my analysis.)

[Doggin94it]

Them'z is fighting words punk.

(Just tell him you've gained weight, that will win him over)

[ZachEY]

I'm voting for EY. I would hope the town would realize that even though he got one bad guy he just cost us our town doctor. Keeping him alive if he's a bad guy earns the baddies more time. He's gonna be a distraction for the rest of the game.

If you are innocent. You probably just got yourself killed tonight.

Because hey, what better tactic for Scum than to kill a guy who announces during the Night Phase that he's going to vote for the current number 1 target the next day. It'll look like I was afraid of you, and wanted you dead.

And I make this post, knowing that it may have just saved your life, and added a vote to me.

[JustInFudge]

Is that why you posted last night in another thread?

You got me!

Them'z is fighting words punk.

I will kick your ****ing ass pusswah.

(Just tell him you've gained weight, that will win him over)

ih8u

[Vicious89x]

If you are innocent. You probably just got yourself killed tonight.

Because hey, what better tactic for Scum than to kill a guy who announces during the Night Phase that he's going to vote for the current number 1 target the next day. It'll look like I was afraid of you, and wanted you dead.

And I make this post, knowing that it may have just saved your life, and added a vote to me.

I don't care if I die as long as it gets you killed.

And don't do me any favors, cause I am going to get you killed. You crippled the town. You take the lead, pronounce that you KNOW someone is scum and you're wrong. Sorry, don't see the point in keeping you alive.