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Mafia Game 3 - Not All in the Family..


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I'm not saying people shouldn't be suspicious of me. I was the first vote, and made an (obviously strong) case, against a player who flipped Doctor. I'd be crazy to think everyone would quickly accept this as 'oopsie'. I would also expect a lot of people to be pissed at me.

But, further analysis of the case and it holds up. That's why I said I'd do it every time.

That said, I accept a lion's share of the blame for this, but not all of it. You yourself found the time to vote for SMC, express your concern about the speed of the lynch, but you didn't say anything either.

No one did. The town suffers, and it's in large part my fault. But I could not have known he was the Dr, we all know that, and for the 3rd or 4th time... I stand by my posts, and so did many others. I know you claim I was a leader, so everyone just listened. But that's not fair either. I don't ask for you to do what I say because I SAID IT. I ask only for you to do what I say if you believe in it. People did. This time, it didn't work out.

Given the suspicion I was laboring under at the time, what do you think the result would have been if I said anything.

"He's just trying to make sure his scum-buddy can fake claim! lynch him!"

I called out the speed, and hoped that one of the other experienced players would make the obvious point - the one I couldn't make explicitly without being counter productive.

Note, I'm not saying you should be the next lynch candidate. You know who tops my list. But you do need to be investigated, and soon.

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Norway was on my list prior to EY's (compelling) laundry list of posts so I would feel hypocritical to immediately jump on the "EY Must Go" bandwagon.

I'm not saying this "in his defense," but more so because I see what acting hastily did for us last night (we killed our Dr.). People who are voting for him, ask yourself this; Are you voting for him because you really think he is guilty? Or are you voting for him because you are (justifiably) mad at him?

If the latter, that is not a good reason. We should probably all wait before voting for ANYONE since emotions are high right now.

If this makes me suspicious then so be it. Regardless of if it does or doesn't, it is still very good advice.

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Norway was on my list prior to EY's (compelling) laundry list of posts so I would feel hypocritical to immediately jump on the "EY Must Go" bandwagon.

I'm not saying this "in his defense," but more so because I see what acting hastily did for us last night (we killed our Dr.). People who are voting for him, ask yourself this; Are you voting for him because you really think he is guilty? Or are you voting for him because you are (justifiably) mad at him?

If the latter, that is not a good reason. We should probably all wait before voting for ANYONE since emotions are high right now.

If this makes me suspicious then so be it. Regardless of if it does or doesn't, it is still very good advice.

That's your best post of the game.

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Sorry, forgot to respond to this. Since it seems like we don't have a serial (only 1 death), I figure I was wrong.

Back on day 1, EY said that he was willing to vote for SMC, but that Irish "needed to go first" and "I know why".

Then he called for Dr. protection (which you should never do unless roled).

I thought that, combining the 2, he was saying that he had been assigned the role of "serial killer finder" (which, in some games, can be different from the general finder) - meaning that he knew there was a serial killer in the game, and was roled (and therefore it would be important for him to get doctor protection). The key was "Irish needs to go first" - because when a serial is active, the most important thing for the town is to kill the serial killer first. This is because if both the serial killer and mafia are in the game, then there will be two kills per night (one by the serial killer, one by the mafia). Since eliminating the serial killer drops it to one kill/night (since the mafia is still there, but the serial isn't), while eliminating a single mafioso does not (since both the serial and the rest of the mafia keep their separate kills), it would be important for the serial to die first.

But, since it appears that we don't have a serial in the game, it looks like I was wrong.

So yellin - what did you mean by saying that Irish needed to go first?

I still think we may have a serial killer. I think the protection may have worked.

In the opening post, the player was not murdered, he was arrested. The 'Doctor' is a lawyer. What good would a lawyer do against the gunshot that occurred to Bleedin' Green.

It seems very logical that the mafia attempted to arrest me, and Bleedin' was shot by someone else.

I think it's fairly obvious why Irish needed to go first. Because if I allowed SCUM to get to the Night Phase, knowing that I caught him, I'd surely be killed. Because I wouldn't have done enough to earn the protection (which I now believe I got). With me gone, SCUM would have pointed to my so-called alignment with SMC, and gotten Irish off the hook.

SMC has a role that I think is very valuable to the town, in the non-traditional sense of serial killer.

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I still think we may have a serial killer. I think the protection may have worked.

In the opening post, the player was not murdered, he was arrested. The 'Doctor' is a lawyer. What good would a lawyer do against the gunshot that occurred to Bleedin' Green.

It seems very logical that the mafia attempted to arrest me, and Bleedin' was shot by someone else.

I think it's fairly obvious why Irish needed to go first. Because if I allowed SCUM to get to the Night Phase, knowing that I caught him, I'd surely be killed. Because I wouldn't have done enough to earn the protection (which I now believe I got). With me gone, SCUM would have pointed to my so-called alignment with SMC, and gotten Irish off the hook.

SMC has a role that I think is very valuable to the town, in the non-traditional sense of serial killer.

Why do you think that. I'm not getting a bauer vibe from him at all (obviously, since he's my #1 lynch target)

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I don't care if I die as long as it gets you killed.

And don't do me any favors, cause I am going to get you killed. You crippled the town. You take the lead, pronounce that you KNOW someone is scum and you're wrong. Sorry, don't see the point in keeping you alive.

I thought it was pretty obvious EY would be lynched next. I don't see why you'd be such a target for saying so, when I thought a lot of people shared your feelings.

I think it would be more valuable for the finder to investigate SMC or Doggin, personally.

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I thought it was pretty obvious EY would be lynched next. I don't see why you'd be such a target for saying so, when I thought a lot of people shared your feelings.

I think it would be more valuable for the finder to investigate SMC or Doggin, personally.

Because it'd be a perfect tactic for mafia. Kill me and make it seem since I've publically questioned I happen to die. Gets the town to jump on him even quicker.

But it doesn't matter because I don't have a doctor to protect me now.

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You've got to look at it from a numbers perspective. Assuming there were 4 scum at the beginning of the game, losing Yellin would cut them down to 2 scum left. The finder would also tell us who he viewed as innocent, which would cut down the number of players left to lynch. In that situation, we likely win. Assuming there are 5 scum to start, there would be 3 left - more difficult, but still, the town would have the edge.

If the finder looks at EY (which I still don't think it's worth it to do), I think it only makes sense for the finder to reveal if both EY and whoever he investigated the night before turn up guilty. At that point, with two guilty results, I can see how that would narrow down the field substantially.

But if EY turns up guilty and if the finder previously investigated one innocent, I don't think it helps us enough for him to reveal himself. Won't the confirmed innocent be night killed? That won't do us any good.

I still think it benefits us more if the investigator has time to investigate more people.

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I don't care if I die as long as it gets you killed.

And don't do me any favors, cause I am going to get you killed. You crippled the town. You take the lead, pronounce that you KNOW someone is scum and you're wrong. Sorry, don't see the point in keeping you alive.

I was wrong. As I've said. Haven't you been wrong while playing the game?

Lets see... you pretty much cost the town any chance of winning with your play last game. I don't remember the game before that well enough... and this game, YOU voted to kill the doctor. Only because I said so. Does that really make you squeaky clean?

The point of keeping me alive is that maybe I made a mistake. You don't kill punitively, or most players wouldn't make it out of day 2.

You're going to get me killed. Ok.

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I was wrong. As I've said. Haven't you been wrong while playing the game?

Lets see... you pretty much cost the town any chance of winning with your play last game. I don't remember the game before that well enough... and this game, YOU voted to kill the doctor. Only because I said so. Does that really make you squeaky clean?

The point of keeping me alive is that maybe I made a mistake. You don't kill punitively, or most players wouldn't make it out of day 2.

You're going to get me killed. Ok.

I bow to your superior interwebz ego and knowledge. I'll never question it again.

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I'm also wondering why Doggin is both blaming EY for the speedy lynching of Norway, and also arguing that he's a valuable asset to the town if he's innocent. I don't understand why you think it would be such a bad move to lynch him.

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Why do you think that. I'm not getting a bauer vibe from him at all (obviously, since he's my #1 lynch target)

It's all about the balance. The 'red herring' was the 'town drunk' angle. Something that drew obvious attention to him. So, he must have some positive quality to offer, otherwise he's just a bad guy who's an easy kill. I don't see that such a character would exist.

Any of this is possible:

Aside from Mafia, Werewolves, and Serial Killers (solitary guilty parties), the Innocents may have some roles with the ability to kill at night. The Vigilante is an "innocent" who kills every night, in his own night-time phase,[26] in some variations, having a limited "bullet" supply for the entire game. Some variations introduce a time limit of two nights before the player in the Killing Role can exercise his right to kill again.

With the 'town drunk' qualities used as something to make him stand out/life more difficult for him.

The other thing is, since we're pretty confident it's him, we can pull the trigger on him at any moment, if need be. No reason not to let him run free for a while if he's just as likely to take out scum.

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I bow to your superior interwebz ego and knowledge. I'll never question it again.

This isn't about ego or knowledge. This is about you saying 'You made a mistake so you die'. That's a good way to ruin the town. Because the town is in the dark. So, they make mistakes. You know who doesn't make mistakes? Scum. Because they have all the answers.

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I'm also wondering why Doggin is both blaming EY for the speedy lynching of Norway, and also arguing that he's a valuable asset to the town if he's innocent. I don't understand why you think it would be such a bad move to lynch him.

Because Doggin knows that I'm a valuable asset to the town. And that I play an aggressive style where mistakes happen. He knows that I will help catch more scum if allowed. He also knows there is no way I could have known Norway was the Dr.

In fact, if norway were merely a roleless town, would we even be having this conversation right now?

And if you're going to use speed lynching as a reason to kill me, then what do you make of yourself, who cast the 2nd to last vote for the guy? That was a mistake, and so, if we go on the principle of kill innocents who make mistakes. You surely deserve to die as well, no?

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This isn't about ego or knowledge. This is about you saying 'You made a mistake so you die'. That's a good way to ruin the town. Because the town is in the dark. So, they make mistakes. You know who doesn't make mistakes? Scum. Because they have all the answers.

A good way to ruin the town is getting the doctor killed.

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See, here's the thing. There's no perhaps about it. Everyone was following your lead, and if you said "people, hold off until he gets a chance to defend himself", or better yet, had also unvoted to make sure he got that chance, we wouldn't be in this situation.

This is true.

EY, you being right the first time led everyone who voted to happily believe you were certainly right the second time. You should've put on the brakes.

I'm voting for EY. I would hope the town would realize that even though he got one bad guy he just cost us our town doctor. Keeping him alive if he's a bad guy earns the baddies more time. He's gonna be a distraction for the rest of the game.

This was an ugly day, but I'm not ready to vote for EY yet.

Basically, if Yellin is guilty, I think we gain more than we lose from the finder revealing. If anyone other than Yellin flips guilty, the finder should wait until they have 2 names before revealing. And obviously, if Yellin is innocent, the finder CANNOT reveal just to tell us that.

That last part didn't seem to be obvious to everyone. It should definitely be noted in case our finder is a newb. If the finder decides to investigate EY, I'd hold off on any reveals until the voting starts. If the lynch mob goes after him and he's guilty, then he's gone and the finder can stay hidden. If the mob goes after him and he's innocent - and he's on the brink of being whacked - then, siht, I don't know....

If there's a "godfather" who comes up innocent even though he's guilty, and that player's EY, the finder revealing himself to reveal that EY's innocent loses the game for the town then and there. The finder will be dead that night, and the "godfather" will lead the scum to victory.

I still think we may have a serial killer. I think the protection may have worked.

In the opening post, the player was not murdered, he was arrested. The 'Doctor' is a lawyer. What good would a lawyer do against the gunshot that occurred to Bleedin' Green.

It seems very logical that the mafia attempted to arrest me, and Bleedin' was shot by someone else.

I was thinking along these same lines, too. It could also lead to players possibly "coming back to life," as in the zombie game. Maybe innocent, maybe turned while they were under detention.

I was kinda happy there was only one kill the first night, as people were going to suspect me of being a really, really stupid SK if there were two. Usually I want to be right with my baseless speculation, this time it worked for me that I wasn't. But, as you can see, I can't help talking about the way the game might be set up.

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I'm also wondering why Doggin is both blaming EY for the speedy lynching of Norway, and also arguing that he's a valuable asset to the town if he's innocent. I don't understand why you think it would be such a bad move to lynch him.

Because he is a valuable asset to the town if innocent. Good players - even the best players - make mistakes when they are innocent. They make mistakes because, unlike scum, they are working from very imperfect knowledge: scum knows who the non-scum is, while innocents don't. And if EY is innocent, then his case on Irish demonstrates exactly how valuable he can be. You don't lynch an asset like that "just in case" - not unless they've been acting very, very suspicious and its close to endgame, where getting it wrong means you lose.

I'm suspicious of Yellin, but it's entirely possible that what happened was just a very, very bad mistake from a player too overconfident in his own analysis. If that's what it was, I doubt that it will happen again, and we want to keep EY around. But by the same token, if he's scum, then he's just demonstrated the ability to put together compelling cases on innocent players, and we need to know that before following him around again.

Make sense?

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This is true.

That last part didn't seem to be obvious to everyone. It should definitely be noted in case our finder is a newb. If the finder decides to investigate EY, I'd hold off on any reveals until the voting starts. If the lynch mob goes after him and he's guilty, then he's gone and the finder can stay hidden. If the mob goes after him and he's innocent - and he's on the brink of being whacked - then, siht, I don't know....

Sorry - sometimes I forget that new players don't know the basics.

And rule number 1 for a finder is never reveal to protect an innocent. Even if he's on the brink of being whacked, even if someone else false-claims, says they are the finder and player X is guilty, you stay hidden.

That goes double after the doc is dead. The town has one major advantage in these games - numbers. There's a lot more town than scum. Which means that we can lose an innocent player without it hurting too much (as long as the player doesn't have a key role). Having a finder reveal (and then die) to save one innocent player (even if that player is me) is a tremendous mistake that could cripple the town.

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Well, you are the expert on that.

Now, tell me how I could have known he was the Dr... and tell me why you voted for him.

I'M SORRY I'M NOT AS SMART AS YOU... I AM WORTHLESS BECAUSE I AM NOT AS INTELLIGENT AS INTERNET GOD EY.

Why? Cause it was a compelling case, you were wrong, I was wrong for believing you, I will not be buying what you're selling for the remainder of the game. But seeing how you've pointed out how stupid I am I'm probably wrong anyways, so no need to sweat it big guy.

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Well in the end, I cast the killing blow so if someone wants to point blame it can be to me (sorry, Norway).

The problem is this death doesn't even really lead us anywhere...hopefully no one else important dies tonight.

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A good way to ruin the town is getting the doctor killed.

Even if EY is scum, he couldn't have known that Norway was the doc (unless there's a mafia role-finder in the game, which could also be a way to balance out the game if there are only 4 mafia members)

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A good way to ruin the town is getting the doctor killed.

Because Doggin knows that I'm a valuable asset to the town. And that I play an aggressive style where mistakes happen. He knows that I will help catch more scum if allowed. He also knows there is no way I could have known Norway was the Dr.

I gotta agree with EY, there, Vic. There's no way he could've known that Norway was the doc, and you know that, too. You sound pissed, which is fine, but that's no reason to make a false case against him. Is he scum who cleverly led us to kill Irish first to gain cred, then led us to kill an innocent on day two? Unfortunately, that's possible. But it's not possible that he knew he was killing the doc.

What happened absolutely sucks, but it's not a good enough reason to whack EY immediately. He's 1 for 2 on scum so far, which is better than the law of averages.

Something tells me that the next day phase is going to last a little longer than the last one.

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