Mafia Game 3 - Not All in the Family..

[ZachEY]

Or.

We lynch doggin. He's innocent

Mafia blocks SMC.

No NK.

We turn on SMC to kill him, cause he'll just use the role block defense again.

So, what do you suggest?

[Vicious89x]

So, what do you suggest?

I'm open to what the town wants... I just see more upside in SMC's death by our hands then letting him live.

In my view we get scum either way. It's either him, or Doggin. Plus if he's innocent that clears a cloud over your head a bit, cause you defended him so hard.

[ZachEY]

not like we can't change things. Or enter in the quotes and make stuff up ourselves.

Yeah, I don't think that really helps his argument.

[SMC]

not like we can't change things. Or enter in the quotes and make stuff up ourselves.

I'm starting to get a bad feeling about you, Vic.

[Doggin94it]

I think the roleblocker is a Rat in this game.

As to slats' question, why would someone put a block on Doggin (meaning, any action against Doggin NOT any action by Doggin), it would be to block an investigation.

The fact that you need to go back to this to make your theories work should be all anyone else needs to lynch you.

[ZachEY]

I'm starting to get a bad feeling about you, Vic.

That's not the best way to win votes.

[SMC]

Yeah, I don't think that really helps his argument.

Then you're being foolish.

BTW, why is Vic so anxious to whack me?

This is the thing: if I get whacked, Doggin the Rat lives and gets voted off tomorrow. But you, EY, will likely get NK. That's an excellent trade for the Rats.

Think about that. They get to kill you (Pide Piper) and me (Vigilante) and only sacrifice Doggin in the process. Perhaps Vic goes on and tries to take your place?

[SMC]

That's not the best way to win votes.

I'm not trying to win votes. I'm trying to win the game.

It's obvious I'm the vigilante. Doggin's reasons against me are asinine.

[Doggin94it]

I think he did it in large part because he believes his life tonight is strongly worth trading for someone he believes he's confirmed as scum.

SMC gains his life today. Because, without that reveal, he looks to easily be the next one to go.

That would only make sense if he had "revealed" at 2 votes to lynch.

Not right out of the gate.

And you know that.

[Doggin94it]

Ok, so I think I understand the reasoning if SMC is innocent - that no one would get NK'ed either night (the roleblock Night 2 and the doctor potentially protecting EY or someone else Night 1).

But if SMC is guilty and lying about his role, do we really think there would be no night kill? Simply to create confusion?

I also don't understand Doggin's pressing need to lynch SMC right now. Either way, isn't his time limited?

Simple answer - I want to stay alive. I'm an asset to the town, and SMC is SMscum

hence, we lynch him today, I am mostly exonerated, and the town is happy.

[Jets Things]

As to slats' question, why would someone put a block on Doggin (meaning, any action against Doggin NOT any action by Doggin), it would be to block an investigation.

2) Someone is a roleblocker and is also scum, perhaps suspected SMC had a role based upon EY's theories (which have been unwaveringly followed this game), thought SMC would try to do something, and blocked his attempt on Doggin while not knowing SMC was going after him.

My theory makes as much sense as yours.

[slats]

Any particular reason?

Because when I said this earlier:

I was thinking along these same lines, too. It could also lead to players possibly "coming back to life," as in the zombie game. Maybe innocent, maybe turned while they were under detention.

I was kinda happy there was only one kill the first night, as people were going to suspect me of being a really, really stupid SK if there were two. Usually I want to be right with my baseless speculation, this time it worked for me that I wasn't. But, as you can see, I can't help talking about the way the game might be set up.

EY replied with this:

Slats...

I agree with everything you've said.

But when I said this:

BG wasn't a bad guess in my eyes. I mentioned that night that I thought he might be scummy with that nail in the coffin/distance creating vote on IJ. He's also made it to the end of a couple games. I understand being highly suspicious of him.

There might be another night action, too. What if they have the power to turn a player at night? Like the "bite power" in the zombie game that I believe turned... you? I could have that wrong, but they definitely were able to turn a player into a zombie, and it certainly fits the makeup of this game that the rats could bag a family member overnight and send him back wearing a wire.

EY replied with this:

I would be shocked.

The two ideas are awfully similar. One EY agrees with, the other he doesn't.

If the scum had such a power, who would they've targeted with it after day one's actions?

[Vicious89x]

Then you're being foolish.

BTW, why is Vic so anxious to whack me?

This is the thing: if I get whacked, Doggin the Rat lives and gets voted off tomorrow. But you, EY, will likely get NK. That's an excellent trade for the Rats.

Think about that. They get to kill you (Pide Piper) and me (Vigilante) and only sacrifice Doggin in the process. Perhaps Vic goes on and tries to take your place?

I'm anxious to whack a rat.

Or we can let you live and you can keep on killing innocents. Your "reveal" was:

-poorly timed

-easily countered

-and NOT that entirely helpful to the town

At this point you've killed an innocent and have revealed a possibly important role with what, 2 votes on you? Guess it doesn't take a lot to make a rat squeal.

[ZachEY]

I'm open to what the town wants... I just see more upside in SMC's death by our hands then letting him live.

In my view we get scum either way. It's either him, or Doggin. Plus if he's innocent that clears a cloud over your head a bit, cause you defended him so hard.

Here's why I think the opposite.

SMC did not have to reveal his role today. He could have let me come under fire from you and the others. He's so confident that he's got Doggin that he's willing to trade his life.

Further, if Doggin rolls innocent, SMC dies the next day. EVEN IF HIS ROLE IS TRUTHFUL. Why? Because sometimes the man with the gun is far to dangerous, even if he's on your side. For the safety of the town, we'd need to take out this member.

And another HUGE BONUS is the idea that keeping SMC alive into the night likely gets us another night of no NK at best, and SMC's death (meaning no more potential BG casualties) at worst.

[slats]

That would only make sense if he had "revealed" at 2 votes to lynch.

Not right out of the gate.

And you know that.

That's what I have the biggest problem with. But it's not a smart play if he's scum, either.

[Doggin94it]

I don't know about night 2, but night one is fairly reasonable to think that I earned Norway's trust and thus protection, and it ended up working.

And the mafia were dumb enough to go after you knowing you had a high likelihood of being protected . . . why, exactly?

And the whole theory that the mafia knew SMC had a role, so they role blocked him instead of killing is just nuts.

If that's the reason for no-kill, the mafia could have killed SMC. Then, they'd have him outr of the way and be free to kill tomorrow night and every night thereafter.

The theory that I'm a mafia roleblocker and we roleblocked SMC last night requires that I'm dumb enough to choose a plan that will eliminate "our" ability to NK every night instead of just killing SMC (who "we" would have known couldn't be doctor protected).

Do you really think I'm that stupid? Really?

[ZachEY]

The two ideas are awfully similar. One EY agrees with, the other he doesn't.

If the scum had such a power, who would they've targeted with it after day one's actions?

I read to quickly it seems.

Let me be clear. I do not think under any circumstances anyone will come back from the dead in this game. The rest of that initial post I do agree with however.

[Doggin94it]

I can't see the mafia going after you. That play makes entirely too much sense and with such a large game the mafia could pick someone else valuable to the town to off if they know that you're protected.

If that's the case then we're playing against the noobiest mafia ever.

Not only that, but on the theory that I'm mafia, they were so Noobishly Noobie that they were able to convince me to do that too.

[Vicious89x]

Here's why I think the opposite.

SMC did not have to reveal his role today. He could have let me come under fire from you and the others. He's so confident that he's got Doggin that he's willing to trade his life.

Further, if Doggin rolls innocent, SMC dies the next day. EVEN IF HIS ROLE IS TRUTHFUL. Why? Because sometimes the man with the gun is far to dangerous, even if he's on your side. For the safety of the town, we'd need to take out this member.

And another HUGE BONUS is the idea that keeping SMC alive into the night likely gets us another night of no NK at best, and SMC's death (meaning no more potential BG casualties) at worst.

I follow but.... if SMC is scum.

Doggin dies... he's innocent, then they go after you, or me or another innocent then that's 2. Then SMC plays the role blocker card again after a no NK and says OH NOES I GOTZ BLOCKED AGAIN.

Then he points the finger at someone else and then we're back where we began. The town would have to agree on SMC dying regardless of today/tonights actions.

Because the other scenario is he goes after more "scum" and ends up BG'ing us again so then the mafia gets 2 NK's cause they can kill anyone they choose, hell they could keep him ALIVE cause he's helping them with confusion and wrong kills.

[SMC]

I'm anxious to whack a rat.

Or we can let you live and you can keep on killing innocents. Your "reveal" was:

-poorly timed

-easily countered

-and NOT that entirely helpful to the town

At this point you've killed an innocent and have revealed a possibly important role with what, 2 votes on you? Guess it doesn't take a lot to make a rat squeal.

Vic, you're either being foolish--or a Rat.

Poorly timed? EY freakin' outed me already as a vigilante. Or were you not reading?

Easily countered? By who? You and "lets just lynch him"? You and Doggin (and his Peter Petrelli fetish) have provided no sound basis for lynching me.

Not helpful? 2 for me. Gets the Family to whack 3 Rats, leaving 2. That's a fair trade. I was not long for this game anyway.

[Doggin94it]

You would think that. But, because the game is so large, perhaps mafia took it's chances that the doc would be scared to leave himself vulnerable. Losing 1 NK isn't the end of the world, especially if they can roleblock and protect themselves.

Again, these are all just ideas, because we may no know why this happened until the game ends.

No, in a game this large losing 1 NK is the end of the world, because there are that many more innocents and therefore that many more days mafia needs to survive.

[ZachEY]

That would only make sense if he had "revealed" at 2 votes to lynch.

Not right out of the gate.

And you know that.

He's not revealing to save his own life. Because revealing kills him.

He's revealing to ensure your death.

And you know that.

[SMC]

Do you really think I'm that stupid? Really?

Yes.

[SMC]

He's not revealing to save his own life. Because revealing kills him.

He's revealing to ensure your death.

And you know that.

THANK YOU!!!

[slats]

The theory that I'm a mafia roleblocker and we roleblocked SMC last night requires that I'm dumb enough to choose a plan that will eliminate "our" ability to NK every night instead of just killing SMC (who "we" would have known couldn't be doctor protected).

Do you really think I'm that stupid? Really?

Under this scenario, if you chose to kill him you'd both be dead now. So the smart play is could definitely be to block him for one night, and hope to get him lynched the next day before he can try again.

I really think SMC should live for a day. I think we learn more by letting him get to the night than lynching him now.

[Vicious89x]

Vic, you're either being foolish--or a Rat.

Poorly timed? EY freakin' outed me already as a vigilante. Or were you not reading?

Easily countered? By who? You and "lets just lynch him"? You and Doggin (and his Peter Petrelli fetish) have provided no sound basis for lynching me.

Not helpful? 2 for me. Gets the Family to whack 3 Rats, leaving 2. That's a fair trade. I was not long for this game anyway.

Eh... the point is did you have to say ANYTHING. No, no one put a gun to your head and said TELL US YOUR ROLE NOW. Had you been pro-town you would've revealed at the proper time, with more then 2 votes on you. You know who else did a move like this with this few votes on him?

WP

Yea, his infamous doctor reveal came under the same circumstances.

Yea I'm a rat. You know what, I hope you live, you kill ME and then you can happily say you killed off 2 innocents, zero mafia, and served as a detriment to the town. High five.

[Doggin94it]

I cannot post anything CTM sends me by PM:

The rule however, DOES NOT prohibit me from quoting what I sent CTM. So to end this discussion once and for all, here are my 2 Night Action PMs:

Here are my two night action PMs:

The Vigilante's Night Kill for Night 1 is:

Bleedin' Green

I'll try to get this right tonight:

Night Kill: SMC

[SMC]

He's not revealing to save his own life. Because revealing kills him.

He's revealing to ensure your death.

And you know that.

Eh... the point is did you have to say ANYTHING. No, no one put a gun to your head and said TELL US YOUR ROLE NOW. Had you been pro-town you would've revealed at the proper time, with more then 2 votes on you. You know who else did a move like this with this few votes on him?

WP

Yea, his infamous doctor reveal came under the same circumstances.

Yea I'm a rat. You know what, I hope you live, you kill ME and then you can happily say you killed off 2 innocents, zero mafia, and served as a detriment to the town. High five.

LOL

Read EY's quote above.

Learn something.

[Sharrow]

Talk about confusion. At least we know we have 1 more scum pegged, whether it's Doggin or SMC.

[ZachEY]

And the mafia were dumb enough to go after you knowing you had a high likelihood of being protected . . . why, exactly?

To take a chance. It already worked once in a game on this board.

And the whole theory that the mafia knew SMC had a role, so they role blocked him instead of killing is just nuts.

unless they were setting him up as a potential scum day kill target. How's that for nuts?

If that's the reason for no-kill, the mafia could have killed SMC. Then, they'd have him outr of the way and be free to kill tomorrow night and every night thereafter.

unless you knew that he'd target you, and you'd be hit, so you needed to prevent that from happening. So, you got him blocked, and saved yourself in the processes, proceeding to try to kill him during the day.

The theory that I'm a mafia roleblocker and we roleblocked SMC last night requires that I'm dumb enough to choose a plan that will eliminate "our" ability to NK every night instead of just killing SMC (who "we" would have known couldn't be doctor protected).

Do you really think I'm that stupid? Really?

Nope. I think you did what's bolded above. To protect yourself from SMC, who, if you killed him, would still get the hit on you too.

[slats]

I read to quickly it seems.

Let me be clear. I do not think under any circumstances anyone will come back from the dead in this game. The rest of that initial post I do agree with however.

I can accept that.

With such a large game, I figure there has to be something in play that balances it out, though.

[Vicious89x]

Under this scenario, if you chose to kill him you'd both be dead now. So the smart play is could definitely be to block him for one night, and hope to get him lynched the next day before he can try again.

I really think SMC should live for a day. I think we learn more by letting him get to the night than lynching him now.

You're sorely wrong. Mafia's greatest weapon is time and deceit, the more you let a virus exist, the bigger and harder it becomes to control.

If we need a kill vote on someone else I'll remove mine. But I'm 100% sure on SMC. Because either way the town wins. Keeping SMC alive does absolutely NOTHING for us. Why?

Cause he's only so "sure" of doggin, if we kill doggin we let this nut job run back into the night shooting blanks and probably hitting one of us, and then the Mafia gets a NK on TOP of that. Hell they can just keep him alive after that because then he's alive for another day to create more confusion and more getting on his soap box and saying "I CAN NK MAFIA". He's a danger to the town.

I rest my case. I wouldn't be blown away if SMC comes after me now, cause that's what rats do.

[Doggin94it]

That's what I have the biggest problem with. But it's not a smart play if he's scum, either.

Well, no. But how many "he's too smart to make mistakes under pressure" free passes are we going to give him? Because it seems like he's been handed them at basically every stage of this game.

[Vicious89x]

LOL

Read EY's quote above.

Learn something.

Yea, cause EY's standing is COMPLETELY UNTAINTED

The guy built a case to kill our doctor. Let's not forget that. That is your #1 defender. Oh wait, you guys have done MORE work for the mafia then the mafia has done for themselves. Way to go.

[SMC]

Here are my two night action PMs:

How about this?

http://www.jetnation.com/forums/private.php?do=showpm&pmid=196221