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Mafia Game 3 - Not All in the Family..


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Dan- I think either way we're gonna get a result. I don't have a vote in on anyone for this reason. If we get SMC, he flips innocent, then we get doggin who came after him hardest. I'll probably follow close behind that but hey, that's the price to play the game. Also if he flips innocent you can almost assume EY's innocence. Either way, my position is because I believe SMC is the rat. I'm not ready to follow EY's lead after last time.

First off, I don't think that if SMC is innocent, we can assume EY's innocence. I think that would be an extremely dangerous leap to make.

I'm not getting a great vibe from either SMC or Doggin, but if we're going to get a result either way, I think we gain more from lynching Doggin before SMC.

If Doggin turns out to be guilty, we have eliminated one scum and have pretty much verified that SMC did try to NK Doggin last night. Which I think benefits the town for at least one more night phase, as long as we come to a consensus on who SMC should NK and don't let him run around shooting people like Bleedin'.

It's also possible that SMC isn't fully on the town's side, but that doesn't quite make sense to me right now. Because if he's a serial killer, won't the mafia realize that and kill him tonight anyway?

Now if Doggin turns out to be innocent, we've also 100% verified that SMC is lying. So whatever happens with lynching Doggin, we get pretty certain answers from it. I would assume that if Doggin turns up innocent, we would absolutely lynch SMC next, no question about it.

If we lynch SMC, we only get real evidence if he turns up innocent. (In which case we can confirm that what he said about trying to NK Doggin was true. And in that case, we've also lost out on the chance to NK one more scum.) But if SMC turns up guilty, we do not verify Doggin's innocence the way I think we would verify SMC's innocence if Doggin turns up guilty.

We will gain a lot from Doggin's death, whether or not he turns up guilty. I don't think we will gain as much from SMC's death at this point.

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That's if you hit correct tough guy. Sure come after me. I'd love to see you turn over another innocent.

If you hit wrong you're still a liability to the town.

Uhm, not if the Family agrees who I should hit. Slats or someone else proposed that, remember?

The Family should vote on who I should NK. I believe Doggin is a roleblocking Rat, so I would not be able to be stopped tonight.

If there is someone you think I should put a cap in his (or her) ass, let me know.

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First off, I don't think that if SMC is innocent, we can assume EY's innocence. I think that would be an extremely dangerous leap to make.

I'm not getting a great vibe from either SMC or Doggin, but if we're going to get a result either way, I think we gain more from lynching Doggin before SMC.

If Doggin turns out to be guilty, we have eliminated one scum and have pretty much verified that SMC did try to NK Doggin last night. Which I think benefits the town for at least one more night phase, as long as we come to a consensus on who SMC should NK and don't let him run around shooting people like Bleedin'.

It's also possible that SMC isn't fully on the town's side, but that doesn't quite make sense to me right now. Because if he's a serial killer, won't the mafia realize that and kill him tonight anyway?

Now if Doggin turns out to be innocent, we've also 100% verified that SMC is lying. So whatever happens with lynching Doggin, we get pretty certain answers from it. I would assume that if Doggin turns up innocent, we would absolutely lynch SMC next, no question about it.

If we lynch SMC, we only get real evidence if he turns up innocent. (In which case we can confirm that what he said about trying to NK Doggin was true. And in that case, we've also lost out on the chance to NK one more scum.) But if SMC turns up guilty, we do not verify Doggin's innocence the way I think we would verify SMC's innocence if Doggin turns up guilty.

We will gain a lot from Doggin's death, whether or not he turns up guilty. I don't think we will gain as much from SMC's death at this point.

Fair enough. I see your point. I'm also playing devils advocate in saying that it's not that hard to put together his "Hard evidence" that he's showing you. His defense is "I wouldn't do that, I wouldn't waste my time doing a fake message."

Remember he's still a possible 3rd party. Once he eliminates all rats, all he has to do is kill us off if he's a "serial killer" type of roll. I'm comfortable with your analysis because you're admitting that this guy smells but you feel this is the best route to go. I'm cool with that.

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If Doggin turns out to be guilty, we have eliminated one scum and have pretty much verified that SMC did try to NK Doggin last night. Which I think benefits the town for at least one more night phase, as long as we come to a consensus on who SMC should NK and don't let him run around shooting people like Bleedin'.

I completely agree on that. I will only NK whomever the Family comes to a consensus on.

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Fair enough. I see your point. I'm also playing devils advocate in saying that it's not that hard to put together his "Hard evidence" that he's showing you. His defense is "I wouldn't do that, I wouldn't waste my time doing a fake message."

Remember he's still a possible 3rd party. Once he eliminates all rats, all he has to do is kill us off if he's a "serial killer" type of roll. I'm comfortable with your analysis because you're admitting that this guy smells but you feel this is the best route to go. I'm cool with that.

Of course - it wouldn't shock me in the slightest to find out that SMC is lying. Everyone keeps saying SMC is such a smart player, but for some reason he drew attention to himself early on, which doesn't make sense whether he's scum, serial killer, vigilante, or whatever. He also supposedly killed Bleedin', which sucks ass. And I completely see your point that he could have faked the screenshot.

Unfortunately, with the information we have right now, I'd rather know for sure that we'll gain a lot from this next lynch.

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Of course - it wouldn't shock me in the slightest to find out that SMC is lying. Everyone keeps saying SMC is such a smart player, but for some reason he drew attention to himself early on, which doesn't make sense whether he's scum, serial killer, vigilante, or whatever. He also supposedly killed Bleedin', which sucks ass. And I completely see your point that he could have faked the screenshot.

Unfortunately, with the information we have right now, I'd rather know for sure that we'll gain a lot from this next lynch.

Sounds good. Even if Doggin flips rat we have to be concerned with SMC. This is a large game so it wouldn't surprise me to see a third party at work here.

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Hey guys - haven't read over the posts since Friday because I'm passover cleaning tonight, but I wanted to check in after shabbos so you knew what was up. I'll read up and post after I'm done (figure early sunday morning) if I'm still alive. Try not to lynch me til then

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Uhm, not if the Family agrees who I should hit. Slats or someone else proposed that, remember?

The Family should vote on who I should NK. I believe Doggin is a roleblocking Rat, so I would not be able to be stopped tonight.

If there is someone you think I should put a cap in his (or her) ass, let me know.

It's real hard logic to argue at this point. I think Doggin should get his last voice before the family whacks him.

I still don't think your role is what you say it is. Syndicates are just that, theirs a hierarchy to ensure everyone has the fmaily's best interest in mind. The whole is greater than the individual unit, remember Fredo. A vigilante is a lone wolf by definition and listens to no one. Chan is too particular to overlook this. "SMC is ok with me, he could just go kill who he feel like." Doesn't sound like something Vito Corleone would say, not at all.

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It's real hard logic to argue at this point. I think Doggin should get his last voice before the family whacks him.

I still don't think your role is what you say it is. Syndicates are just that, theirs a hierarchy to ensure everyone has the fmaily's best interest in mind. The whole is greater than the individual unit, remember Fredo. A vigilante is a lone wolf by definition and listens to no one. Chan is too particular to overlook this. "SMC is ok with me, he could just go kill who he feel like." Doesn't sound like something Vito Corleone would say, not at all.

I don't want to place a vote for doggin quite yet until I hear his rebuttal...

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Oh, and, Vicious, if I was really upset at you I'd have written:

Badi lahsak manbat sha'er baidi

It's Arabic for, "I will make you lick the roots of the hairs of my balls"

or

Eyreh be afass seder emmak

"My dick in your mother's rib cage"

or

Yen 'aal deen ommak

"Damn your mother's rooster"

Elif air ab tizak

"A thousand dicks in your ass"

And, finally ...

Ikhlassy akhrasi ya sharmoot wa iftahy khashmik

"Shut up man-bitch and open your mouth"

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Oh, and, Vicious, if I was really upset at you I'd have written:

Badi lahsak manbat sha'er baidi

It's Arabic for, "I will make you lick the roots of the hairs of my balls"

or

Eyreh be afass seder emmak

"My dick in your mother's rib cage"

or

Yen 'aal deen ommak

"Damn your mother's rooster"

Elif air ab tizak

"A thousand dicks in your ass"

And, finally ...

Ikhlassy akhrasi ya sharmoot wa iftahy khashmik

"Shut up man-bitch and open your mouth"

Bro... my nipples could glass right now.:biggrin:

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Oh, and, Vicious, if I was really upset at you I'd have written:

Badi lahsak manbat sha'er baidi

It's Arabic for, "I will make you lick the roots of the hairs of my balls"

or

Eyreh be afass seder emmak

"My dick in your mother's rib cage"

or

Yen 'aal deen ommak

"Damn your mother's rooster"

Elif air ab tizak

"A thousand dicks in your ass"

And, finally ...

Ikhlassy akhrasi ya sharmoot wa iftahy khashmik

"Shut up man-bitch and open your mouth"

lol i think im going ti keep acouple of those in mind in english

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That would make sense because you didn't know you would need to show it when you actually did it. This actually adds to the belief you may be telling the truth. Yet speaks nothing of the efficacy of you still being the family vigilante. Plus, do families have vigilante? I always thought vigilante's work alone like Charles Bronson? If you worked for the family you would be a foot soldier, or a hitman, or muscle, or counsiliary or cleaner or something like that?

Can someone provide a movie refrence with a family vigilante? An actually mob movie, not some yo yo who's brother is a vigi;lante. I've read a bit about the mob and never seen a reference.

I think getting into the symantics of "vigilante" is a futile exercise. You could certainly have a loyal family member who thinks he's doing good for the family by taking matters into his own hands. In real life and in this game, I don't think that person would have a long life expectancy.

I'd like to hear an explanation from Vicious as well.

All he's doing is being contrarian without presenting his own evidence.

No offense, but you presented your screenshot as evidence that you were telling the truth. Vic showed evidence that it's easy to fake. That's fair game AFAIC. Your "fuk u" responses really don't sit well with me. I prefer your Arabic.

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First off, I don't think that if SMC is innocent, we can assume EY's innocence. I think that would be an extremely dangerous leap to make.

I'm not getting a great vibe from either SMC or Doggin, but if we're going to get a result either way, I think we gain more from lynching Doggin before SMC.

If Doggin turns out to be guilty, we have eliminated one scum and have pretty much verified that SMC did try to NK Doggin last night. Which I think benefits the town for at least one more night phase, as long as we come to a consensus on who SMC should NK and don't let him run around shooting people like Bleedin'.

It's also possible that SMC isn't fully on the town's side, but that doesn't quite make sense to me right now. Because if he's a serial killer, won't the mafia realize that and kill him tonight anyway?

Now if Doggin turns out to be innocent, we've also 100% verified that SMC is lying. So whatever happens with lynching Doggin, we get pretty certain answers from it. I would assume that if Doggin turns up innocent, we would absolutely lynch SMC next, no question about it.

If we lynch SMC, we only get real evidence if he turns up innocent. (In which case we can confirm that what he said about trying to NK Doggin was true. And in that case, we've also lost out on the chance to NK one more scum.) But if SMC turns up guilty, we do not verify Doggin's innocence the way I think we would verify SMC's innocence if Doggin turns up guilty.

We will gain a lot from Doggin's death, whether or not he turns up guilty. I don't think we will gain as much from SMC's death at this point.

I agree with the above.

SMC has made a strong claim against Doggin. I've been suspicious of Doggin, but he's made a pretty good case on why he wouldn't act the way he's being accused of if he were scum. Whoever the scum is, though, they're leaving a lot of questions out there with their lack of night activity. At this point, whacking Doggin would give us a clear answer on both him and SMC.

I'm inclined to believe the majority of SMC's story. I don't like the fact that he was supposedly caught up in his role, and that's why he was doing all that bandwagonning early. That just stinks. The main reason EY seemed to think he had a role was because he thought that SMC might have some sort of posting or voting requirement attached to his role.

On the other hand, SMC fingering BG as scum the night before BG turned up with a bullet in his head in the morning is the best evidence that he's telling the truth, IMHO. The screenshots do nothing for me. That fact that BG was actually innocent demonstrates just how dangerous this role is even if it's 100% legit. We could lynch an innocent during the day, and he can kill another one during the night - with or without our vote. Whether he's on our side or not, the scum might like having him around so he can take out more Bleedin' Greens for them.

Outside of some serious drama from Doggin in the AM, it looks like he's a goner. SMC's night work will be our next big conversation, and what to do with him after that will dominate much of the next day.

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Alright, I've now read through all of this. Please bear with me, because this is going to be a loooong post. If you can't read it the whole way through - well, just vote for me, you're doing the scum's work for them anyway. If you read it the whole way through and still vote for me . . . well, then I guess I tip my cap to Yellin.

Not SMC, though, because, first of all, the screenshot was total BS, and I can't believe SMC hasn't been modkilled for it already. The point of those rules is to make sure that the game is played based on the game itself - not based on "evidence" from outside the game, and not based on how good someone is with photoshop.

Second, look at how SMC reacted when he was called on that. Everyone jumped on the Irish train because of his absurd hyper defensiveness. And they were right to do so - hyper defensiveness is a typical scumtell, right up there with lying and bandwagoning (which, see below, is why I stayed off Irish's train and voted SMC). SMC's initial reaction to being called on his fake PM's was cursing and yelling. He only got funny with the arabic later - almost as if he'd read a PM from a teammate telling him to calm down?

Third, as I (and others) have pointed out, I'd have to be a complete mafia moron to play the game (as scum) the way Yellin and SMC are postulating that I've played the game. If there's one thing the experienced players know about me, it's that I'm no mafia moron. Bleedin confirmed that a couple of times while he was alive, and so has crusher. Others in the game can as well.

The only response to that? Yellin's half-assed "styles can be manipulated". But the way I play as mafia isn't about style. It's about what works. I don't try to save my mafia teammates, I bury them and bury them early. You know why? Because if you miss a mafia lynch, you become a suspect. And hey, guess what happened in this game - I missed a mafia lynch, and became a suspect. Shocking.

There's no way I do that if I'm mafia. Similarly, there's no way I waste NK's nights 1 and 2 if I'm mafia, especially since I've been a strong suspect since the end of Day 1. For the mafia to win, they need to kill innocents. And, Yellin's ego aside, with one member down and (under the theory that I'm mafia) one member on the chopping block, there's absolutely no way I risk a no-kill just for a shot at EY (let alone the ridiculous roleblock idea.

Again, this isn't about style to be manipulated - its about what wins and what loses. The very idea that I'm mafia assumes that I'm either stupid, or that I've decided to play to lose.

Fourth, and finally, SMC is so clearly scum it's hard to imagine anyone being scummier. The three biggest scumtells are bandwagoning, lying and hyperdefensiveness, and SMC's hit the trifecta. The fact that he had 2 of those on day 1 is what kept me voting for him over Irish. Lets recap:

Charge: Bandwagoning

Status: Admitted

Defense 1 (from Yellin): Oh, he must have had a plan

Reality: SMC says he had no plan

Defense 2: "I got caught up in the character"

Reality: Getting "caught up in the character" does not, in any way, explain bandwagonning.

Verdict: Guilty

Charge: Lying.

Status: Jumped on Jets Things over "Peter Petrelli". First refused to answer questions, then claimed that he thought "Peter Petrelli" was an in-game lie. Has refused to explain how he could have thought "Peter Petrelli" was an in-game lie.

Deduction: SMC is lying about thinking "Peter Petrelli" was an in-game lie.

Defense 1 (from Yellin): This is irrelevant.

Reality: While Jets Things' "Peter Petrelli" comment wasn't an in-game lie, SMC's "belief" that it was an in-game lie was, itself, an in-game lie. SMC's claimed belief is the in-game justification for an in-game, scummy act: voting for Jets Things at the tail end of a bandwagon. Thus, if SMC is lying about whether he believed "Peter Petrelli" had in-game relevance, SMC is a lying liar who lies, and needs to be lynched.

Defense 2: Silence, and hope it goes away

Reality: SMC's inability to explain the basis for his belief that "Peter Petrelli" was an in-game lie confirms that SMC was lying when he said he believed that.

Verdict:Guilty

Charge: Hyper Defensiveness

Status: Open and obvious

Defense: None

Verdict: Guilty

Like I said, SMC hit the trifecta, and he needs to go.

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One more thing. If you decide to off me anyway, when I do flip innocent, here are my suggestions:

1) Order SMC to take out Yellin. He won't take out his teammate, and that should confirm that he's scum.

2) The only 2 players I'm absolutely convinced are innocent are Dan X and Vicious. Take that for what its worth

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Not SMC, though, because, first of all, the screenshot was total BS, and I can't believe SMC hasn't been modkilled for it already. The point of those rules is to make sure that the game is played based on the game itself - not based on "evidence" from outside the game, and not based on how good someone is with photoshop.

LOL. Then blame CTM for not writing better rules. Modkilling me for it would not be in accordance to the rules. CTM specifically wrote that quoting him is against the rules. He made no prohibition of quoting myself or doing a screen shot of me communicating with him.

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One more thing. If you decide to off me anyway, when I do flip innocent, here are my suggestions:

1) Order SMC to take out Yellin. He won't take out his teammate, and that should confirm that he's scum.

I like this deal.

I like all deals that, between you and me, will never come to fruition because one of the conditions is an impossibility. (that being you flipping innocent)

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as to my 'weak' defense.

There is no 'style that works' every time. We both know this. If there were, there would be know game. The game involves moving pieces and 17 other people's thought processes than your own.

Once there is a formula, you have to break it, because everyone knows it.

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Second, look at how SMC reacted when he was called on that. Everyone jumped on the Irish train because of his absurd hyper defensiveness. And they were right to do so - hyper defensiveness is a typical scumtell, right up there with lying and bandwagoning (which, see below, is why I stayed off Irish's train and voted SMC). SMC's initial reaction to being called on his fake PM's was cursing and yelling. He only got funny with the arabic later - almost as if he'd read a PM from a teammate telling him to calm down?

Third, as I (and others) have pointed out, I'd have to be a complete mafia moron to play the game (as scum) the way Yellin and SMC are postulating that I've played the game. If there's one thing the experienced players know about me, it's that I'm no mafia moron. Bleedin confirmed that a couple of times while he was alive, and so has crusher. Others in the game can as well.

The only response to that? Yellin's half-assed "styles can be manipulated". But the way I play as mafia isn't about style. It's about what works. I don't try to save my mafia teammates, I bury them and bury them early. You know why? Because if you miss a mafia lynch, you become a suspect. And hey, guess what happened in this game - I missed a mafia lynch, and became a suspect. Shocking.

There's no way I do that if I'm mafia. Similarly, there's no way I waste NK's nights 1 and 2 if I'm mafia, especially since I've been a strong suspect since the end of Day 1. For the mafia to win, they need to kill innocents. And, Yellin's ego aside, with one member down and (under the theory that I'm mafia) one member on the chopping block, there's absolutely no way I risk a no-kill just for a shot at EY (let alone the ridiculous roleblock idea.

Again, this isn't about style to be manipulated - its about what wins and what loses. The very idea that I'm mafia assumes that I'm either stupid, or that I've decided to play to lose.

Fourth, and finally, SMC is so clearly scum it's hard to imagine anyone being scummier. The three biggest scumtells are bandwagoning, lying and hyperdefensiveness, and SMC's hit the trifecta. The fact that he had 2 of those on day 1 is what kept me voting for him over Irish. Lets recap:

Charge: Bandwagoning

Status: Admitted

Defense 1 (from Yellin): Oh, he must have had a plan

Reality: SMC says he had no plan

Defense 2: "I got caught up in the character"

Reality: Getting "caught up in the character" does not, in any way, explain bandwagonning.

Verdict: Guilty

Charge: Lying.

Status: Jumped on Jets Things over "Peter Petrelli". First refused to answer questions, then claimed that he thought "Peter Petrelli" was an in-game lie. Has refused to explain how he could have thought "Peter Petrelli" was an in-game lie.

Deduction: SMC is lying about thinking "Peter Petrelli" was an in-game lie.

Defense 1 (from Yellin): This is irrelevant.

Reality: While Jets Things' "Peter Petrelli" comment wasn't an in-game lie, SMC's "belief" that it was an in-game lie was, itself, an in-game lie. SMC's claimed belief is the in-game justification for an in-game, scummy act: voting for Jets Things at the tail end of a bandwagon. Thus, if SMC is lying about whether he believed "Peter Petrelli" had in-game relevance, SMC is a lying liar who lies, and needs to be lynched.

Defense 2: Silence, and hope it goes away

Reality: SMC's inability to explain the basis for his belief that "Peter Petrelli" was an in-game lie confirms that SMC was lying when he said he believed that.

Verdict:Guilty

Charge: Hyper Defensiveness

Status: Open and obvious

Defense: None

Verdict: Guilty

Like I said, SMC hit the trifecta, and he needs to go.

Next time, the rules should be written more clearly to prohibit the screen shot.

The bottom line is that you're a Rat. You know it.

Your 3 biggest tells for scum in your book are (1) bandwagonning, (2) lying, and (3) defensiveness.

(1) bandwagonning -- When it's not blatant. Hello! What's the sense in bandwagonning if everyone clearly sees it, I'm called on it, and continue to do it.

(2) lying -- What's funny is that you persist in your Peter Petrelli fetish. Get real here. Come on man. It's absurd. I never played the TV Land game. Do you realize that? I didn't follow the thread. Somehow in dogginverse that's a smoking gun.

(3) defensiveness -- Hot headed Family vigilante who wants to take out Rats and is frustrated that the Family is twiddling its thumbs while a clear Rat like you still lives.

Doggin, I have to hand it to you. You should be dead already. I NK you but you blocked me. If the Family doesn't whack you today you'd have gotten the best of me twice. Bravo.

You and your Rat buddies are down to 4 members at most. You get 2 kills today if I'm whacked. You'd trade that for a chance to talk your way out of a whacking tomorrow.

BTW, I'd put a cap in EY's ass tonight if the Family wants that. I want to kill Rats. You're a Rat.

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