Mafia Game 3 - Not All in the Family..

[SMC]

What's comical, Doggin, is that you've tried to manufacture reasons to lynch me from the first day. You had an inclining I had a role and wanted me out. First, you invented the Peter Petrelli reason, then the bandwagonning (which was wide in the open) and then -ahah!- defensiveness.

Again, the Family whacks me and they pretty much lose the game. Whacking you and me killing a Rat tonight cut the Rats down by 50%. The Rats would be at a 10-2 disadvantage (assuming the Rats take a Family member out tonight).

[SMC]

About SMC posting a screenshot. I remember the last mafia game I even offered to post a screenshot of my PM to show I was innocent, and I was bashed by everyone and told not to do it because it's against the rules...

It has to prohibit it explicitly to be against the rules.

This isn't baseball. There are no "spirit of the rules" or "unwritten rules."

[ZachEY]

About SMC posting a screenshot. I remember the last mafia game I even offered to post a screenshot of my PM to show I was innocent, and I was bashed by everyone and told not to do it because it's against the rules...

I agree it was a crappy thing to do. It should be unquestionably not allowed going forward.

If SMC was a constitutional lawyer he'd know that while it may not be in the rules, it was not what the framers had intended.

Unfortunately, it can't be undone now.

[Jets Babe]

It has to prohibit it explicitly to be against the rules.

This isn't baseball. There are no "spirit of the rules" or "unwritten rules."

My question is....why was I bashed then? What you did is cheating...

[Jets Babe]

I agree it was a crappy thing to do. It should be unquestionably not allowed going forward.

If SMC was a constitutional lawyer he'd know that while it may not be in the rules, it was not what the framers had intended.

Unfortunately, it can't be undone now.

Now the question is...was it photoshopped?

[Jets Babe]

HEY, SMC.....

You're so innocent, and you had no idea that posting a screen shot of the PM was against the rules, right?

Here is a post of mine from the last mafia game....

http://www.jetnation.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1197013#post1197013

There's really nothing to say here....here comes my big role reveal:

I'm a townie. No super powers.

If anyone doesn't believe me I can post a screen shot of EY's pm to me.

Then, 1 post later, JVOR says:

http://www.jetnation.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1197014&postcount=241

Then, I said:

http://www.jetnation.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1197018&postcount=242

To which, SMC replied:

http://www.jetnation.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1197081&postcount=243

SMC knows that posting a screen shot is illegal, and I just proved it.

SMC is a liar who is wreaking of scum.

[ZachEY]

My question is....why was I bashed then? What you did is cheating...

He would have been the same if he offered it. Unfortunately, as I said, it can't be undone.

And no, I don't think it was shopped.

And even if you ignore it, plenty of evidence points to Doggin while the evidence that points to SMC is bandwagonning, which was admitted to and explained, and some supposed 'lie' about a character in a game in which he did not play and is in no way relevent to this game.

Even if you don't want to buy into the bandwagonning, which is completely which is fair, you'd have to admit that Doggin making the Petrelli argument repeatedly is grasping at straws AT BEST.

[Jets Babe]

He would have been the same if he offered it. Unfortunately, as I said, it can't be undone.

And no, I don't think it was shopped.

And even if you ignore it, plenty of evidence points to Doggin while the evidence that points to SMC is bandwagonning, which was admitted to and explained, and some supposed 'lie' about a character in a game in which he did not play and is in no way relevent to this game.

Even if you don't want to buy into the bandwagonning, which is completely which is fair, you'd have to admit that Doggin making the Petrelli argument repeatedly is grasping at straws AT BEST.

Agreed, but read the above post...

[ZachEY]

HEY, SMC.....

You're so innocent, and you had no idea that posting a screen shot of the PM was against the rules, right?

Here is a post of mine from the last mafia game....

http://www.jetnation.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1197013#post1197013

Then, 1 post later, JVOR says:

http://www.jetnation.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1197014&postcount=241

Then, I said:

http://www.jetnation.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1197018&postcount=242

To which, SMC replied:

http://www.jetnation.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1197081&postcount=243

SMC knows that posting a screen shot is illegal, and I just proved it.

SMC is a liar who is wreaking of scum.

Sadly JB, you just proved nothing.

You tried to post a screen shot of my PM to you.

SMC posted a screenshot of his PM to CTM.

You see the difference?

[ZachEY]

Agreed, but read the above post...

I did.

Your turn.

[SMC]

JETS BABE, you wanted to post PM FROM ERIC YELLIN (aka the Moderator), which is illegal

Hello! You should read what you post.

http://www.jetnation.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1197014&postcount=241

If anyone doesn't believe me I can post a screen shot of EY's pm to me.

I posted MY PM to CTM.

Do you understand the difference?

[Jets Babe]

Sadly JB, you just proved nothing.

You tried to post a screen shot of my PM to you.

SMC posted a screenshot of his PM to CTM.

You see the difference?

But still, it's essentially the same thing..posting screenshots is illegal. SMC acted like he didn't know, but in reality, he did. I think both characters (SMC & doggin) have shown signs of scumminess...I just don't know who to vote for.

[Jets Babe]

JETS BABE, you wanted to post PM FROM ERIC YELLIN (aka the Moderator), which is illegal

Hello! You should read what you post.

http://www.jetnation.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1197014&postcount=241

I posted MY PM to CTM.

Do you understand the difference?

It's essentially the same thing...and it's cheating. Whatever, you might be scum or not...I don't know. I do know that you lied and cheated.

[Jets Voice of Reason]

I still don't understand this contradiction Doggin is making. The "i'm too smart for that" defense is invalid for SMC but it's somehow valid for Doggin? I don't buy that. I also don't buy the fact that he keeps asking Crusher "is this how I play as scum?" I mean hello, it would take an idiot to play the same way each time when you know you have people in this game who have played with you before. And the logic still stands that we learn more from Doggin's death than SMC's death. If Doggin flips innocent we go hard after SMC because we know he lied. If we lynch SMC right now, and he flips innocent, we don't know for sure about Doggin. Again, a big reason i'm suspicious of Doggin is because he tried to get our finder killed knowing the doctor was gone. Doggin knows that we need more results for it to be worth it to the town for our cop to put it out there. I mean like I said, we're crippled without a doctor AND a cop. Nothing Doggin has said up to this point has convinced me to change my mind.

Vote: Doggin

[SMC]

But still, it's essentially the same thing..posting screenshots is illegal. SMC acted like he didn't know, but in reality, he did. I think both characters (SMC & doggin) have shown signs of scumminess...I just don't know who to vote for.

No, it's not.

Here are the rules:

Quoting the Mod/Revealing Mod Pics: You may not quote anything I say in PM. You can paraphrase all you like

[Jets Voice of Reason]

I still don't understand this contradiction Doggin is making. The "i'm too smart for that" defense is invalid for SMC but it's somehow valid for Doggin? I don't buy that. I also don't buy the fact that he keeps asking Crusher "is this how I play as scum?" I mean hello, it would take an idiot to play the same way each time when you know you have people in this game who have played with you before. And the logic still stands that we learn more from Doggin's death than SMC's death. If Doggin flips innocent we go hard after SMC because we know he lied. If we lynch SMC right now, and he flips guilty, we don't know for sure about Doggin. Again, a big reason i'm suspicious of Doggin is because he tried to get our finder killed knowing the doctor was gone. Doggin knows that we need more results for it to be worth it to the town for our cop to put it out there. I mean like I said, we're crippled without a doctor AND a cop. Nothing Doggin has said up to this point has convinced me to change my mind.

Vote: Doggin

Corrected.

[ZachEY]

But still, it's essentially the same thing..posting screenshots is illegal. SMC acted like he didn't know, but in reality, he did. I think both characters (SMC & doggin) have shown signs of scumminess...I just don't know who to vote for.

I believe both are wrong. Both should be prohibited going forward...

But it is NOT essentially the same thing. Because, the rule is you cannot re-post information the mod gave you. That's exactly what you wanted to do. Posting a screen grab is no different than quoting.

As vic demonstrated, it would be easy for you to falsify a PM to CTM and take a screen grab of it, and be lying. That would not require any editing. CTM would not send a false PM.

On the other hand, you would HAVE to photoshop the PM from me/CTM if it were a lie. I for one, am not currently on a computer with photoshop, and wouldn't be able to do that. Though, obv as you know, I'm more than capable of it.

[Doggin94it]

as to my 'weak' defense.

There is no 'style that works' every time. We both know this. If there were, there would be know game. The game involves moving pieces and 17 other people's thought processes than your own.

Once there is a formula, you have to break it, because everyone knows it.

WIFOM, my friend, WIFOM.

Once everyone knows you have to break it, you can stick with it. Except that once everyone knows you can stick with it, you have to break it. Except that once everyone knows you have to break it . . .

You can get mouse trapped by that logic forever, if you're so inclined. I'm not. When I'm scum, I do what works, not make myself a suspect (and cripple my team) on the theory that maybe everyone will think that if I look scummy, I must be innocent. Though, considering how that's worked for SMC this game . . .

[Jets Babe]

I still don't understand this contradiction Doggin is making. The "i'm too smart for that" defense is invalid for SMC but it's somehow valid for Doggin? I don't buy that. I also don't buy the fact that he keeps asking Crusher "is this how I play as scum?" I mean hello, it would take an idiot to play the same way each time when you know you have people in this game who have played with you before. And the logic still stands that we learn more from Doggin's death than SMC's death. If Doggin flips innocent we go hard after SMC because we know he lied. If we lynch SMC right now, and he flips innocent, we don't know for sure about Doggin. Again, a big reason i'm suspicious of Doggin is because he tried to get our finder killed knowing the doctor was gone. Doggin knows that we need more results for it to be worth it to the town for our cop to put it out there. I mean like I said, we're crippled without a doctor AND a cop. Nothing Doggin has said up to this point has convinced me to change my mind.

Vote: Doggin

Agreed with the "I'm too smart for that" argument. I'm going to lay my FOS off of SMC right now. If Doggin flips innocent, then we all know who to go after. If he flips scum, then...well...good.

[ZachEY]

Oh, EY, your constitutional law point misses the mark.

shut up.

[ZachEY]

WIFOM, my friend, WIFOM.

Once everyone knows you have to break it, you can stick with it. Except that once everyone knows you can stick with it, you have to break it. Except that once everyone knows you have to break it . . .

You can get mouse trapped by that logic forever, if you're so inclined. I'm not. When I'm scum, I do what works, not make myself a suspect (and cripple my team) on the theory that maybe everyone will think that if I look scummy, I must be innocent. Though, considering how that's worked for SMC this game . . .

Yes. But it only works if you're willing to vary. WIFOM is irrelevant if you ALWAY put the wine in front of yourself.

[Jets Babe]

Yes. But it only works if you're willing to vary. WIFOM is irrelevant if you ALWAY put the wine in front of yourself.

wifom?

[ZachEY]

wifom?

according to Doggin, since you don't know what that is, you must be guilty.

It's 'Wine in front of me'. Which I only learned recently as well.

Basically, if I wanted to poison you, would I put the poison in your glass, expecting you to drink it, or my own, expecting you to make the switch?

[Doggin94it]

(1) bandwagonning -- When it's not blatant. Hello! What's the sense in bandwagonning if everyone clearly sees it, I'm called on it, and continue to do it.

Sense? None. It was a mistake.

Oh, and you've admitted it was a mistake.

Once your mistake was pointed out to you, you had no choice but to continue; changing would have been an admission of guilt.

The idea that being caught on a mistake means that your innocent is completely nonsensical.

(2) lying -- What's funny is that you persist in your Peter Petrelli fetish. Get real here. Come on man. It's absurd. I never played the TV Land game. Do you realize that? I didn't follow the thread. Somehow in dogginverse that's a smoking gun.

Irrelevant deflection.

Again, you never played TV Land. Yay for you. The point is that you admittedly acted on it in this game. It's that action - in this game - that is being questioned.

Explain what you thought "Peter Petrelli" meant that could have been an in-game lie.

You said you thought it was an in-game lie. You either had a reason for thinking that (which you are refusing to articulate), or you had no reason, and are lying about your motivation for the in-game action.

My money's on the latter, which brings lynch all liars into play.

But it's entirely in your power to explain it if you did actually have a reason. Just lay out what, never having played the TV land game, you took the "Peter Petrelli" comment to mean and why you thought it had in-game relevance.

If you were telling the truth about that, it would be easy to do. But you've spent pages and pages ducking the question - which only makes sense if you have no answer. because you're lying. Because you're scum.

(3) defensiveness -- Hot headed Family vigilante who wants to take out Rats and is frustrated that the Family is twiddling its thumbs while a clear Rat like you still lives.

Ah, like the bandwagoning, you "overplayed your character"

Anyone who believes that, vote for me. Anyone who doesn't . . . well, lynch all liars. Again.

BTW, I'd put a cap in EY's ass tonight if the Family wants that. I want to kill Rats. You're a Rat.

[ZachEY]

UNOFFICIAL

Vote Count

SMC (2) Doggin, Crusher

Doggin (7) SMC, EY, JIF, Sharrow, JMJ, Dan X, Jets Voice of Reason

With 15 alive, it takes 8 to whack

[Doggin94it]

I still don't understand this contradiction Doggin is making. The "i'm too smart for that" defense is invalid for SMC but it's somehow valid for Doggin?

The difference is that SMC is defending things we've seen him do with "I'm too smart for that"

I'm being accused of being scum based on hypotheses that make no freaking sense.

It's not "I'm too smart to have acted scummy without a reason."

It's "I didn't act scummy in the first place"

Again, a big reason i'm suspicious of Doggin is because he tried to get our finder killed knowing the doctor was gone. Doggin knows that we need more results for it to be worth it to the town for our cop to put it out there. I mean like I said, we're crippled without a doctor AND a cop.

What? If yellin is guilty, finder reveals. If innocent, stays under cover. Not rocket science.

[Doggin94it]

Corrected.

And if I flip guilty, you know about SMC?

[ZachEY]

And if I flip guilty, you know about SMC?

If you flip guilty, and SMC is alive tomorrow, and another innocent is shot in the head, then we may have to take him down for our own safety.

[Jets Voice of Reason]

And if I flip guilty, you know about SMC?

If you flip guilty we have reason to believe that SMC is telling the truth about his failed NK against you. So we have the opportunity to have SMC NK someone of the family's choosing that night. If it doesn't work or he kills someone else then we lynch him. It's still possible that SMC is working for a third party here but IMO wouldn't the scum take him out because he's a risk to them?

Besides, if you flip innocent, you don't really have to worry about anything, right? We take down SMC the next day.

In regards to the finder question, there could be 2 or 3 scum remaining even if EY flips guilty. You really want us to find those guys without a DOC AND COP? That's the point i'm making. You know it too, so don't play the dumb card.

[JustInFudge]

If you flip guilty, and SMC is alive tomorrow, and another innocent is shot in the head, then we may have to take him down for our own safety.

Absolutely, thats why unfortunately, we have no choice but take Doggin down. I dont like it, but its what has to be done.

This could be somewhat similar to my reveal last game. Though it was bogus, I did have a confirmed guilty in my hands. Potentially, this is what is going on with SMC. He might be scum, but if he has a fellow scum in his hands that he is willing to get rid of, then it behoves the town to go with Doggin for now.

We can figure out if SMC is scum later. The game is still relatively very young. We have only had 3 killings, we can afford to make mistake at this point. And Doggin will tell us the most, maybe not immediately, but it will after the night phase...thats how I feel.

[JustInFudge]

I'm going to play hoops for a couple of hours...I'll check the board when I get back.

[The Crusher]

If you flip guilty, and SMC is alive tomorrow, and another innocent is shot in the head, then we may have to take him down for our own safety.

Doggins story is getting thinner and it looks like he's not going to make it today. SCM has me so nervous right now my dyslexia is acting up, not to mention my dislexia as well.

SCM is the family vigilante and he killed Bleedin by accident the first night. Then missed against doggin the second night because he was role blocked. This is because the lawyer/ DR was killed the night before. So with no Dr left in the game it had to be a role blocker?

Has anyone asked why Bleedin just didn't take out Doggin the first night? Is this because our Dr who was short lived died the morning after. I find it hard to believe Norways would have saved anyone but EY after day 1. So on night one SCM had to chose Bleedin over Doggin? I rememebr someone asking if we knew who Norway protected that first nihgt?

Common knowledge would guess EY.

[Doggin94it]

If you flip guilty we have reason to believe that SMC is telling the truth about his failed NK against you. So we have the opportunity to have SMC NK someone of the family's choosing that night. If it doesn't work or he kills someone else then we lynch him. It's still possible that SMC is working for a third party here but IMO wouldn't the scum take him out because he's a risk to them?

Besides, if you flip innocent, you don't really have to worry about anything, right? We take down SMC the next day.

I know - my point was just that your logic for voting for me was wrong.

In regards to the finder question, there could be 2 or 3 scum remaining even if EY flips guilty. You really want us to find those guys without a DOC AND COP? That's the point i'm making. You know it too, so don't play the dumb card.

yes. scum hunting should not primarily be based on finder results, and as Yellin's cheerleading of the lynches on me and Norway demonstrates, he's very very dangerous

[Doggin94it]

Looks like I'm going down. Remember, listen to Dan X and Vicious. They have good instincts. And don't let Sharrow, Woody, and the others who have been hanging back in this battle continue to skate by unexamined.

Yellin dies tonight, then SMC in the morning (or just SMC in the morning, more likely, then Yellin the next day).

[Jets Things]

Vote: SMC

Screenshot - knows that posting them is sh1tty, but hiding behind a technicality.

Role reveal - completely unnecessary given that he had no more than 2 votes on him.

Night kill - said he'd kill whomever the town wanted, leaving the possibility of killing another (BG say hey). Let's say the town agrees to have SMC kill someone and that someone role reveals as the investigator. Town is F'd.