Vicious89x Posted April 15, 2009 Share Posted April 15, 2009 I guess you didn't read my other post, where I highlighted that he was killing Minor League pitching when he was (supposedly) 21-22 and suffered injuries and mismanagement at the Major League level. '98 - Fractured his wrist early in the season. '99 - Demoted after poor spring training. Killed it in the PCL. '01 - Fractured wrist again early in the year. '02 - Had knee scoped. Right, injuries are scary and they happened to him. But what's a common thing players use to remain healthy from the grind of the season? I'm just playing devil's advocate here. My honest opinion is innocent till proven guilty. But I wish Sox fans wouldn't act like he isn't beyond reproach and admit... "yea there's a possibility" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TampaBayJetsFan85 Posted April 15, 2009 Share Posted April 15, 2009 Without Manny in the lineup, Ortiz will never be the Ortiz of the past and thats just how I honestly feel. Manny really made that whole lineup better and the Red Sox WILL feel the loss of Manny here in 09 because I'm sorry...Bay is no Manny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyHector Posted April 15, 2009 Share Posted April 15, 2009 Right, injuries are scary and they happened to him. But what's a common thing players use to remain healthy from the grind of the season? I'm just playing devil's advocate here. My honest opinion is innocent till proven guilty. But I wish Sox fans wouldn't act like he isn't beyond reproach and admit... "yea there's a possibility" My biggest contention is that he wasn't a guy who had an established pattern of being a certain type of player, who suddenly became a monster power-hitter (ie. Brady Anderson or Bret Boone). Ortiz was always viewed as having a big bat, had the minor league track record to back it up, and in his age-27 season, finally proved it in the bigs. Look at Ryan Howard (assume that he's clean) ... he hit 19 and 23 HR's (in 493 and 490 AB's) in his age-22 and 23 seasons in A-ball and then as a 24yo, hit 46 HR's between AA and AAA. If Howard hadn't been blocked by Thome and been rushed to the majors, his early results probably would've been more like what Ortiz did early on with the Twins, instead of being an instant success at 25/26 years old. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vicious89x Posted April 15, 2009 Share Posted April 15, 2009 JH, I'm saying even if, EVEN if he was clean. He's always gonna be questioned, always gonna be naysayers. I'm in the group that thinks he probably didn't use anything but dont' deny he is above questioning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PFSIKH Posted April 15, 2009 Share Posted April 15, 2009 - Baseball America had him in their Top 100 prospects in 1998 - In 1997, totaled .318/32/130 between High-A/AA/AAA/Majors as a (supposedly) 21yo - Put up a line of .315/30/100 in the PCL in 1999 (1.002 OPS) - In his time with the Twins, suffered two separate wrist injuries and hurt his knee in 2002 - Had a manager in Tom Kelly, who had a reputation for mismanaging young players and relying on useless veterans (ie. giving way too much PT to Ron Coomer over Ortiz) My point in all this is that he wasn't a guy who was a middling minor leaguer that suddenly developed a power stroke with the aid of PEDs. Now, he could've been taking them since he was 18 for all I know, but I don't see any solid evidence that he suddenly started using when he got to Boston. Besides, hitting behind Manny Ramirez is one of the best performance-enhancers a baseball player could hope for. +1 on your post. This is not to say he didn't use, because no one knows. It would be fair to say his yahoo statement is almost an admission. With that being said, he was not an unknown who turned into the fiercest player in the game. Somewhere between his last season with the TWins-an organization that is known to be a good,stable judge of talent-and his first with the Sawx, at age 26, Ortiz goes from an average AL 1st baseman to the best in the league. This is known as UNPRECEDENTED. So either the Twins are idiots -which they're not based on their management over the past decade and half. Or something else happened. Ortiz was and is known to dissappear into the DR every winter. Gee, what can you get over the counter there? http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/o/ortizda01.shtml And he worked with the same exact trainer as A-rod. http://www.sportsofboston.com/2009/02/20/steroid-tainted-trainer-linked-to-a-rod-ortiz-pedro/ Again, if it's shown Jeter used, I wouldn't be shocked at this point. Even if Ortiz did use, so what? Seems like many of the pitchers used too. It's past time to get worked up about it either way. Better living through chemistry. He also went from Minnesota (i.e. pitcher's park) where he was asked to hit opposite field to Boston (i.e. hitter's park) which has the Green Monster and seriously short right field corner a measly 302 feet away. I am not sitting at the mountain top proclaiming his innocence. Far from it, but the 'alleged' evidence you are using is weak. His guilt by association (i.e. merely playing during the roid era) is stronger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeebers Posted April 15, 2009 Share Posted April 15, 2009 David Ortiz went from a scrub platoon player to a 50 homer MVP stud. He is as clear a steroid case as anyone. Just a question. Paul O'neill. He went from a career .260 hitter with Cincy to about a .320 hitter with the Yankees. Was that the byproduct of a better lineup/team or juicing? The Yankees are a team that have more known steroid cheats than anyone, is this a coincidence? Once again, I am just curious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morrissey Posted April 15, 2009 Author Share Posted April 15, 2009 Just a question. Paul O'neill. He went from a career .260 hitter with Cincy to about a .320 hitter with the Yankees. Was that the byproduct of a better lineup/team or juicing? The Yankees are a team that have more known steroid cheats than anyone, is this a coincidence? Once again, I am just curious. 3 words RIGHT FIELD PORCH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nyjunc Posted April 15, 2009 Share Posted April 15, 2009 Just a question. Paul O'neill. He went from a career .260 hitter with Cincy to about a .320 hitter with the Yankees. Was that the byproduct of a better lineup/team or juicing? The Yankees are a team that have more known steroid cheats than anyone, is this a coincidence? Once again, I am just curious. Why have more Yankees been exposed? is it b/c more Yankees were using or the fact that the guy in the Mitchell report worked w/ a bunch of Yankees? don't act like this is a Yankee problem, there are as many Sox, Mets, Royals,... players that used. Just b/c a player hasn't been caught doesn't mean a player hasn't used. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeebers Posted April 15, 2009 Share Posted April 15, 2009 Why have more Yankees been exposed? is it b/c more Yankees were using or the fact that the guy in the Mitchell report worked w/ a bunch of Yankees? don't act like this is a Yankee problem, there are as many Sox, Mets, Royals,... players that used. Just b/c a player hasn't been caught doesn't mean a player hasn't used. Never said it was a Yankee problem. I was just pointing out the fact, that more Yankees have been outed than any other team, regardless of what the situation may be. That is an indisputable fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeebers Posted April 15, 2009 Share Posted April 15, 2009 3 words RIGHT FIELD PORCH Fair enough, although his power numbers didn't really improve that much, but his BA shot up the roof to the tune of roughly 50-60 points. Who knows, O'neill was an angry man. Is that a product of roid rage, we'll probably never know. As far as Ortiz, everything is speculation until proven otherwise. Fenway is also a great hitter's park with the short field around Pesky Pole and the green monster. The point is, we can speculate, but to say without a doubt he did this or he did that is a little presumptuous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nyjunc Posted April 15, 2009 Share Posted April 15, 2009 Never said it was a Yankee problem. I was just pointing out the fact, that more Yankees have been outed than any other team, regardless of what the situation may be. That is an indisputable fact. It's a fact but there's reasons behidn that plus the fact that many got busted while not even playing for the yankees. I THINK Gimabi used as a Yankee but he was outed for using as an A, I THINK ARod used as a Yank but he was outed for using while he was a Ranger, Sheff same deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PFSIKH Posted April 16, 2009 Share Posted April 16, 2009 Just a question. Paul O'neill. He went from a career .260 hitter with Cincy to about a .320 hitter with the Yankees. Was that the byproduct of a better lineup/team or juicing? The Yankees are a team that have more known steroid cheats than anyone, is this a coincidence? Once again, I am just curious. The Paul O'Niel in Cincy where he is, *gulp*, a star is going to see less and have more pressure to produce versus the one in NY. Where he is JAG due to the talent surrounding him. O'Neil goes 0-4 with 3K does anyone bat an eyelash? No. A-Roid do the same thing and it is cover time on all the NY tabloids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bugg Posted April 16, 2009 Share Posted April 16, 2009 Never said it was a Yankee problem. I was just pointing out the fact, that more Yankees have been outed than any other team, regardless of what the situation may be. That is an indisputable fact. That's a function of Macnamee and Radomski being legally forced to cooperate with MLB by the feds. We don't know who the guys who supplied the other players(except Greg Anderson), but there's no doubt Macnamee and Radomski were not the only guys supplying roids to MLB players. At this point everyone's a suspect. And who really cares. Suspect more and more that Canseco's estimate of 90% of players using something extra whether every day or on occasion is probably close to the truth. So whether Ortiz did or didn't is almost irrelevant; he was probably on par with those who was playing with and against and with the pitchers he faced. And the same is true of almsot all of the players. And further at this point our federal government has no business prosecuting Bonds or Clemens or holding hearsings or any of this nonsense. We're broke. Enough with this bread&circuses. I want an FBI that knows what AlQaeda had for breakfast, not spending man hours galore on who d id or did not use roids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PFSIKH Posted April 16, 2009 Share Posted April 16, 2009 That's a function of Macnamee and Radomski being legally forced to cooperate with MLB by the feds. We don't know who the guys who supplied the other players(except Greg Anderson), but there's no doubt Macnamee and Radomski were not the only guys supplying roids to MLB players. At this point everyone's a suspect. And who really cares. Suspect more and more that Canseco's estimate of 90% of players using something extra whether every day or on occasion is probably close to the truth. So whether Ortiz did or didn't is almost irrelevant; he was probably on par with those who was playing with and against and with the pitchers he faced. And the same is true of almsot all of the players. And further at this point our federal government has no business prosecuting Bonds or Clemens or holding hearsings or any of this nonsense. We're broke. Enough with this bread&circuses. I want an FBI that knows what AlQaeda had for breakfast, not spending man hours galore on who d id or did not use roids. Canseco is also part of the problem. While I think what he says has some truth he emphatically supported Clemens in saying he was clean. Which we all know is BS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shawn306 Posted April 16, 2009 Share Posted April 16, 2009 Just a question. Paul O'neill. He went from a career .260 hitter with Cincy to about a .320 hitter with the Yankees. Was that the byproduct of a better lineup/team or juicing? The Yankees are a team that have more known steroid cheats than anyone, is this a coincidence? Once again, I am just curious. When O'Neill was in Cincy they wanted him to be a power/pull hitter. When he came to New York he was able to hit more to left field and in the alleys. They didn't expect him to be a power hitter. I think Tino Martinez was a more interesting case when you look at his power numbers for 1997 and what the rest of his career was. Here was guy who had not hit more than 31 HR's in a season and then goes and hits 44 ? Never approached those numbers again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rillo Posted April 16, 2009 Share Posted April 16, 2009 I refuse to call another man 'Papi'. Especially "Big Papi" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyHector Posted April 16, 2009 Share Posted April 16, 2009 When O'Neill was in Cincy they wanted him to be a power/pull hitter. When he came to New York he was able to hit more to left field and in the alleys. They didn't expect him to be a power hitter. Sounds like the opposite of Ortiz - the Twins wanted him to shorten his swing and hit to all fields, whereas Boston turned him loose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GimmeShelter Posted April 16, 2009 Share Posted April 16, 2009 My biggest contention is that he wasn't a guy who had an established pattern of being a certain type of player, who suddenly became a monster power-hitter (ie. Brady Anderson or Bret Boone). Ortiz was always viewed as having a big bat, had the minor league track record to back it up, and in his age-27 season, finally proved it in the bigs. Look at Ryan Howard (assume that he's clean) ... he hit 19 and 23 HR's (in 493 and 490 AB's) in his age-22 and 23 seasons in A-ball and then as a 24yo, hit 46 HR's between AA and AAA. If Howard hadn't been blocked by Thome and been rushed to the majors, his early results probably would've been more like what Ortiz did early on with the Twins, instead of being an instant success at 25/26 years old. Good post. Obviously Howard does not face the same accusations on here because he doesn't play for Boston. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morrissey Posted April 16, 2009 Author Share Posted April 16, 2009 http://insider.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?name=olney_buster&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fespn%2fblog%2findex%3fname%3dolney_buster David Ortiz has scouts concerned. He's not alone. Thursday, April 16, 2009 | Feedback | Print Entry David Ortiz pulled a line drive down the right-field line on Wednesday afternoon, the ball skipping close to the foul line before Travis Buck dug it out and fired it to second base. Ortiz, seeing that the play might be close, tried to gather speed before sliding into the bag, feet-first. Safe. For Ortiz, this was his first extra-base hit of the season, in 34 at-bats. He's hitting .176, with a .206 slugging percentage in this small sample of games. Over a larger sample of games -- from 2007 to 2008 -- his OPS dropped almost 200 points, as he coped with a wrist injury. It's early, of course, and there are weeks and months left for Ortiz to find his Big Papi opposite-field power stroke that made him one of the most feared hitters in baseball. But here's the part that has to concern the Red Sox: He looks as bad as his numbers indicate. Opposing talent evaluators are stunned by the regression in his bat speed, by how different a hitter he seems to be compared to what he was in his prime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guido Monzino Posted April 16, 2009 Share Posted April 16, 2009 Good post. Obviously Howard does not face the same accusations on here because he doesn't play for Boston. No one questions Ryan Howard because there are probably 9 guys that have posted in this thread that could hit 50 homers playing in that little stadium in Philly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RexRyanRules Posted April 16, 2009 Share Posted April 16, 2009 No one questions Ryan Howard because there are probably 9 guys that have posted in this thread that could hit 50 homers playing in that little stadium in Philly Ryan Howard is 29 and in great shape, not old and fat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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