Jump to content

Ooh Ow. PFW's Jets Draft Grade: "Average"; Pats, "Outstanding"


T0mShane

Recommended Posts

There is a large gap between the perception (of some) of how things got to where they are and the reality of how they did. You'd think the Patriots had 40+ team draftees on their roster from the complaints.

How many players on the Patriots roster last year came from their own draft picks? 26

  1. Matt Cassel
  2. LeKevin Smith
  3. Tom Brady
  4. Dan Koppen
  5. Matt Slater
  6. James Sanders
  7. Jarvis Green
  8. Stephen Gostkowski
  9. David Thomas
  10. Tedy Bruschi
  11. Ellis Hobbs
  12. Nick Kaczur
  13. Matt Light
  14. Kevin Faulk
  15. Richard Seymour
  16. Logan Mankins
  17. Ben Watson
  18. Brandon Meriweather
  19. Laurence Maroney
  20. Vince Wilfork
  21. Ty Warren
  22. Jerod Mayo
  23. Jonathan Wilhite
  24. Shawn Crable
  25. Kevin O'Connell
  26. Terrence Wheatley

I may be missing one or two guys on each roster, but this is at a first glance. And if not for the Brett Favre obvious PSL/PR stunt, it would have been 26-24 with Pennington. Not exactly a world of difference considering the diametrically opposite "philosophies" they purportedly have.

They are a good team because the players they have are good and the coaching they have are good, not because of a philosophy of stockpiling picks. Almost all of New England's good players (late round QB's notwithstanding) are either 1st round picks or players brought in via free agency or trades. That is the reality.

I assume this is pointed at me because you used "philosophy" in quotes.

I am not saying that the Patriots are a ridiculously talented team because of their draft. All I said regarding the Pats drafts is that because of their organizational philosophy regarding team-building, they are able to draft specific players for specific duties, and aren't beholden to trying to pick up a bunch of guys to fill holes every year. I'd venture a guess that many of their picks don't make the team because there is no room on the roster for them. Belichick drafts Ben Watson because he wants to play around with a TE that runs a 4.4/40. He drafts Dan Klecko because he wants to make a small DT into a blocking back. You can argue the logic, but you can't argue the results. But, again, I wouldn't point to the Pats as a textbook "How to Draft" team. They draft in the lower end of the first round every year because of this philosophy and they take flyers on guys that Belichick wants to coach, regardless of where the draft pundits believe guys should be drafted, or if they should be drafted at all.

BTW, there are three high first round picks on that roster: Richard Seymour, Jarrod Mayo, and Vince Wilfork. Anyone want to compare those three to our own vaunted recent high picks, Gholston, DRob and Revis?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 131
  • Created
  • Last Reply
Because the Pats have a cogent, clear plan when it comes to player acquisition and development, they are able to tailor their drafts to fill holes they may not have now, but WILL have two and three years from now. Unlike Tannebaum, who is the little dutch boy constantly running around plugging holes in the dam, Belichick covers his bases and that is why, more than anything else, they are competitive at a very high level every year. They do not count on rookie draft picks and UDFA's to save their season.

That would be a Dike. :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I assume this is pointed at me because you used "philosophy" in quotes.

I am not saying that the Patriots are a ridiculously talented team because of their draft. All I said regarding the Pats drafts is that because of their organizational philosophy regarding team-building, they are able to draft specific players for specific duties, and aren't beholden to trying to pick up a bunch of guys to fill holes every year. I'd venture a guess that many of their picks don't make the team because there is no room on the roster for them. Belichick drafts Ben Watson because he wants to play around with a TE that runs a 4.4/40. He drafts Dan Klecko because he wants to make a small DT into a blocking back. You can argue the logic, but you can't argue the results. But, again, I wouldn't point to the Pats as a textbook "How to Draft" team. They draft in the lower end of the first round every year because of this philosophy and they take flyers on guys that Belichick wants to coach, regardless of where the draft pundits believe guys should be drafted, or if they should be drafted at all.

BTW, there are three high first round picks on that roster: Richard Seymour, Jarrod Mayo, and Vince Wilfork. Anyone want to compare those three to our own vaunted recent high picks, Gholston, DRob and Revis?

the only thing that Beli has done well is hit his top 10 #1 picks

everything else is below avg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I assume this is pointed at me because you used "philosophy" in quotes.

I was trying to be nice in not naming anyone. I am an angel who only thinks of others' feelings. You might even say it is my philosophy.

I am not saying that the Patriots are a ridiculously talented team because of their draft. All I said regarding the Pats drafts is that because of their organizational philosophy regarding team-building, they are able to draft specific players for specific duties, and aren't beholden to trying to pick up a bunch of guys to fill holes every year. I'd venture a guess that many of their picks don't make the team because there is no room on the roster for them. Belichick drafts Ben Watson because he wants to play around with a TE that runs a 4.4/40. He drafts Dan Klecko because he wants to make a small DT into a blocking back. You can argue the logic, but you can't argue the results. But, again, I wouldn't point to the Pats as a textbook "How to Draft" team. They draft in the lower end of the first round every year because of this philosophy and they take flyers on guys that Belichick wants to coach, regardless of where the draft pundits believe guys should be drafted, or if they should be drafted at all.

BTW, there are three high first round picks on that roster: Richard Seymour, Jarrod Mayo, and Vince Wilfork. Anyone want to compare those three to our own vaunted recent high picks, Gholston, DRob and Revis?

Gholston and DRob and Revis were drafted for specific purposes. Unfortunately two of them suck.

We have drafted others for specific purposes as well. But when we do it you refer to it as stupid. When the Pats do it, you rationalize the motivation behind it.

They aren't all that different. The difference is Bill Belichick is a great coach and Eric Mangini and Herm Edwards were awful coaches. If the head coaches were swapped after the draft & free agency were over, New England - for all their philosophical player acquisitions - would have no rings and the Jets may very well have 1 or more.

I can only imagine what your reaction would have been between April and September, if it was the Jets who just traded a 2nd and a 7th round pick for Wes Welker (and then gave him a $9M signing bonus).

Belichick wants to "toy" with things at TE? Give me a break, bro. Did he also want to "toy" with Chad Jackson and Donte Stallworth and Reche Caldwell and Doug Gabriel and David Thomas and Chris Baker and Christian Fauria and Tim Dwight and Bethel Johnson and Andre' Davis and PK Sam and JJ Stokes and Dedric Ward and Fred Baxter and Brian Kinchen and Donald Hayes and Bert Emanuel and Torrance Small and Dave Stachelski and Jabari Holloway and Garrett Mills...

Or did he just pick up a sh**load of WR's and TE's through the draft and free agency and trades and hope that a couple panned out? Just like every other team does.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I was trying to be nice in not naming anyone. I am an angel who only thinks of others' feelings. You might even say it is my philosophy.

Gholston and DRob and Revis were drafted for specific purposes. Unfortunately two of them suck.

We have drafted others for specific purposes as well. But when we do it you refer to it as stupid. When the Pats do it, you rationalize the motivation behind it.

1. I am not painting the Patriots or Belichick as the be-all-and-end all of draft genius. I am just pointing out that whatever he does, when he does it, has worked.

2. Gholston and DRob were drafted to be superstars. One was drated to be Warren Sapp and one was drafted to be Lawrence Taylor. The Pats drafted Jarrod Mayo to do what Jarrod Mayo does. They drafted Logan Mankins to do what Logan Mankins does. They don't draft guys and try to shoehorn them into the system-du-jour for the franchise. The Jets do. I don't see how that is refutable.

They aren't all that different. The difference is Bill Belichick is a great coach and Eric Mangini and Herm Edwards were awful coaches. If the head coaches were swapped after the draft & free agency were over, New England - for all their philosophical player acquisitions - would have no rings and the Jets may very well have 1 or more.

Agreed that the X-Factor is Belichick, and that Herm and Eric sucked, therefore their players didn't develop. But to say that simply switching coaches would make the difference is speculation, imo. I don't think that Belichick would have a player like DRob on his team, or Vernon Gholston, or Kerry Rhodes for that matter. He has a specific mold that his players have to fit in, or they're gone.

I can only imagine what your reaction would have been between April and September, if it was the Jets who just traded a 2nd and a 7th round pick for Wes Welker (and then gave him a $9M signing bonus).

It would probably be a similar reaction to the reaction I had when New England signed him: I laughed at them and made a post somewhere saying "Wes Welker? Please!" And I was wrong. And I was also wrong when the Jets traded a #2 for Justin McCareins. I was pumped about that. But do these two deals not justify my point? That Belichick knows what a football player looks like and the Jets, generally, do not?

Belichick wants to "toy" with things at TE? Give me a break, bro. Did he also want to "toy" with Chad Jackson and Donte Stallworth and Reche Caldwell and Doug Gabriel and David Thomas and Chris Baker and Christian Fauria and Tim Dwight and Bethel Johnson and Andre' Davis and PK Sam and JJ Stokes and Dedric Ward and Fred Baxter and Brian Kinchen and Donald Hayes and Bert Emanuel and Torrance Small and Dave Stachelski and Jabari Holloway and Garrett Mills...

Or did he just pick up a sh**load of WR's and TE's through the draft and free agency and trades and hope that a couple panned out? Just like every other team does.

Good point, but the difference is, his fishing works out and Tannenbaums has not, unless you think that Brad Smith and David Clowney and Jerricho Cotchery are Randy Moss and Wes Welker.

And I never said he wanted to "toy" around at any position, just that he drafts pet projects and screws around with them until he gets bored, and he has that luxury because his foundational players are in place. Ben Watson wasn't brought in to be the tight end. He was brought in as a toy for Belichick and Weis to play with.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

BTW, there are three high first round picks on that roster: Richard Seymour, Jarrod Mayo, and Vince Wilfork. Anyone want to compare those three to our own vaunted recent high picks, Gholston, DRob and Revis?

I would put Revis up against almost any pick. Gholston was a bust last year, but let's see what the coaching change brings before judging him.

As far as DRob goes, Terry Bradway can not hurt you anymore. Time to move past it. Tanny didn't draft DRob so bringing him up doesn't make sense.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Good point, but the difference is, his fishing works out and Tannenbaums has not, unless you think that Brad Smith and David Clowney and Jerricho Cotchery are Randy Moss and Wes Welker.

Moss and Welker were acquired through trades, so technically you should be comparing them to Kris Jenkins, not Cotchery.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would put Revis up against almost any pick. Gholston was a bust last year, but let's see what the coaching change brings before judging him.

As far as DRob goes, Terry Bradway can not hurt you anymore. Time to move past it. Tanny didn't draft DRob so bringing him up doesn't make sense.

Bradway is fair game because he is still on the payroll.

I can't believe I am here defending the Patriots' concept of team building versus the Jets. This is like Bizarro-world. Where's Tex? Can we let Tex back in?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Bradway is fair game because he is still on the payroll.

I can't believe I am here defending the Patriots' concept of team building versus the Jets. This is like Bizarro-world. Where's Tex? Can we let Tex back in?

Definitely is bizarro world. Tom is back, he roots for the Patriots and there is no proof that he is funny.

:-P

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Kenyon Coleman too? What were we thinking? The guy has dominated over the last 2 seasons! DOMINATED says I! I can't remember a gamewhere Kenyon Coleman didn't make at least 20 impact plays. A true run stuffer and a nightmare for QB's. HOF'er for sure.

Same Old Jets I guess.

Please refrain from taking my name in vain.

2007 1 1 24 24 Brandon Meriweather DB Miami (FL)

2 4 28 127 Kareem Brown DT Miami (FL)

3 5 34 171 Clint Oldenburg T Colorado State

While we are sucking off the Pats for this draft first philosophy and killing the Jets for trading picks maybe you should note that two of their first three picks in '07 spent time of the Jets. So upsetting to lose the depth those mid-rounders provide!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There is a large gap between the perception (of some) of how things got to where they are and the reality of how they did. You'd think the Patriots had 40+ team draftees on their roster from the complaints.

How many players on the Patriots roster last year came from their own draft picks? 26

  1. Matt Cassel
  2. LeKevin Smith
  3. Tom Brady
  4. Dan Koppen
  5. Matt Slater
  6. James Sanders
  7. Jarvis Green
  8. Stephen Gostkowski
  9. David Thomas
  10. Tedy Bruschi
  11. Ellis Hobbs
  12. Nick Kaczur
  13. Matt Light
  14. Kevin Faulk
  15. Richard Seymour
  16. Logan Mankins
  17. Ben Watson
  18. Brandon Meriweather
  19. Laurence Maroney
  20. Vince Wilfork
  21. Ty Warren
  22. Jerod Mayo
  23. Jonathan Wilhite
  24. Shawn Crable
  25. Kevin O'Connell
  26. Terrence Wheatley

How many players on the Jets roster last year came from their own draft picks? 23

  1. Drew Coleman
  2. Kerry Rhodes
  3. Leon Washington
  4. Dwight Lowery
  5. Jerricho Cotchery
  6. Brad Smith
  7. Eric Smith
  8. Sione Pouha
  9. Chris Baker
  10. Laveranues Coles
  11. Justin Miller
  12. Kellen Clemens
  13. David Harris
  14. Mike Nugent
  15. D'Brickashaw Ferguson
  16. Nick Mangold
  17. Bryan Thomas
  18. Darrelle Revis
  19. Erik Ainge
  20. Shaun Ellis
  21. Vernon Gholston
  22. Dustin Keller
  23. Chansi Stuckey

I may be missing one or two guys on each roster, but this is at a first glance. And if not for the Brett Favre obvious PSL/PR stunt, it would have been 26-24 with Pennington. Not exactly a world of difference considering the diametrically opposite "philosophies" they purportedly have.

They are a good team because the players they have are good and the coaching they have are good, not because of a philosophy of stockpiling picks. Almost all of New England's good players (late round QB's notwithstanding) are either 1st round picks or players brought in via free agency or trades. That is the reality.

Sperm you are off your game lately.

This statement is as wrong as two boys f'ing. Dan Koppen, Nick Kaczur and Matt Light were drafted after the first. An additional was a UDFA that never played college football (Neal). The core of the OL was not top picks. They were not FAs. 2 of them, Koppen and Light were acquired through trading up.

9 of those 11 picks you listed (excluding 1st rouders and last year's picks) were from later rounds and productive. Your list does not include Assante who was extremely productive.

Belichcik's 1st and 2nd are no better or worst then anyone else's most likely. However, his ability to stock pile picks has allowed him to move up and grab players. He has also done a great job of getting players from the low rounds

the only thing that Beli has done well is hit his top 10 #1 picks

everything else is below avg

Ummm......wrong. Look above.

I was trying to be nice in not naming anyone. I am an angel who only thinks of others' feelings. You might even say it is my philosophy.

Gholston and DRob and Revis were drafted for specific purposes. Unfortunately two of them suck.

We have drafted others for specific purposes as well. But when we do it you refer to it as stupid. When the Pats do it, you rationalize the motivation behind it.

They aren't all that different. The difference is Bill Belichick is a great coach and Eric Mangini and Herm Edwards were awful coaches. If the head coaches were swapped after the draft & free agency were over, New England - for all their philosophical player acquisitions - would have no rings and the Jets may very well have 1 or more.

I can only imagine what your reaction would have been between April and September, if it was the Jets who just traded a 2nd and a 7th round pick for Wes Welker (and then gave him a $9M signing bonus).

Belichick wants to "toy" with things at TE? Give me a break, bro. Did he also want to "toy" with Chad Jackson and Donte Stallworth and Reche Caldwell and Doug Gabriel and David Thomas and Chris Baker and Christian Fauria and Tim Dwight and Bethel Johnson and Andre' Davis and PK Sam and JJ Stokes and Dedric Ward and Fred Baxter and Brian Kinchen and Donald Hayes and Bert Emanuel and Torrance Small and Dave Stachelski and Jabari Holloway and Garrett Mills...

Or did he just pick up a sh**load of WR's and TE's through the draft and free agency and trades and hope that a couple panned out? Just like every other team does.

Here is the thing Sperm....you can draft for specific purposes if you are good and winning titles.

I think Bethel Johnson was drafted for his specific purpose of being extremely athletic. A KO TD versus the Colts and a TD versus the Titans in the playoffs in which he got behind the D allowed the Patriots to win a title.

The Patriots winning has allowed them to take flyers on all those players you listed. Sure, a few of them flat out sucked and even more were purely meh.

Here is the thing, being a three time champion within four years with a lot of young players, allows you to spend a 4th on Moss (167 catches-2501-34 TDs) or a 2nd/7th on Welker (223 catches-2340 yards-11 TDs).

How many roster spots are the Jets trying to fill in any given year? 10-15? They are good.

Now, what about the Patriots? 3-5? Their 105-34 record over the last eight years allow them so to take chances. Seeing that the only Top 10 pick in the last 8 years was acquired through a trade, they are graded with a different standard. It is different when you are looking to man roster spots 47 through 54.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1. I am not painting the Patriots or Belichick as the be-all-and-end all of draft genius. I am just pointing out that whatever he does, when he does it, has worked.

You are pointing to it like it is a cause and effect. Drafting Bethel Johnson or Chad Jackson with two second-round picks did not in any way help the Patriots have the #1 offense of all time in '07.

2. Gholston and DRob were drafted to be superstars. One was drated to be Warren Sapp and one was drafted to be Lawrence Taylor. The Pats drafted Jarrod Mayo to do what Jarrod Mayo does. They drafted Logan Mankins to do what Logan Mankins does. They don't draft guys and try to shoehorn them into the system-du-jour for the franchise. The Jets do. I don't see how that is refutable.

A bunch of garbage. I'm sure there is a player that Belichick or Pioli saw in the past who Mayo or Mankins or dozens of other players they drafted (or wanted to draft) reminded them of. This is you making stuff up.

Gholston and DRob were taken that high because they were believed to be "blue-chip" prospects in their respective drafts. In '03, it ran through Newman. In '08, it ran through Gholston. Both of them suck.

Bad draft picks are made because players' skills are evaluated badly, not purely because of who else they are dreamed to be.

Richard Seymour was not a DE in college. He is one in the pro's. So clearly Richard Seymour was not drafted to be Richard Seymour but rather someone else. He worked out just fine I'd say.

But if you want to make this about the Patriots being such great drafters overall, you may. But they are not one of the best drafting teams except in two areas: on the lines in round 1, and at QB in rounds 6-7. In between that, they have been between ordinary and worse-than-most.

Agreed that the X-Factor is Belichick, and that Herm and Eric sucked, therefore their players didn't develop. But to say that simply switching coaches would make the difference is speculation, imo. I don't think that Belichick would have a player like DRob on his team, or Vernon Gholston, or Kerry Rhodes for that matter. He has a specific mold that his players have to fit in, or they're gone.

BB wouldn't have DRob because he wouldn't be looking for a player with that skillset because it doesn't fit his defense. It is not because he would never draft someone who isn't as good as he was expected to be. He's drafted LOADS of those players.

Because Gholston was not there when the Pats drafted, you really have no idea whether or not they would have taken him. It is a guess.

If BB wouldn't draft a player like Rhodes at the end of the 4th round, then he's a f***ing idiot. Hey, he's no Kareem Brown or Garrett Mills or James Sanders or Dexter Reid or Cedric Cobbs, but he's hardly the worst player in the league. He sucked last year & we'll find out if that was due to being used improperly. I think it was.

And it is not speculation to say that with the same players, there is no way that Herm Edwards wins a superbowl as HC of the Patriots. Mangini neither.

It would probably be a similar reaction to the reaction I had when New England signed him: I laughed at them and made a post somewhere saying "Wes Welker? Please!" And I was wrong. And I was also wrong when the Jets traded a #2 for Justin McCareins. I was pumped about that. But do these two deals not justify my point? That Belichick knows what a football player looks like and the Jets, generally, do not?

BB has acquired plenty of FA's who have not panned out.

Good point, but the difference is, his fishing works out and Tannenbaums has not, unless you think that Brad Smith and David Clowney and Jerricho Cotchery are Randy Moss and Wes Welker.

Randy Moss is a unique talent. How he knew Al Davis would unload him for a 4th round pick is beyond me. Davis likely wouldn't have done that with the Jets anyway.

Welker was just a freak pickup. Great judgment call. If everyone knew it - including Miami - he wouldn't be so available to NE.

And I never said he wanted to "toy" around at any position, just that he drafts pet projects and screws around with them until he gets bored, and he has that luxury because his foundational players are in place. Ben Watson wasn't brought in to be the tight end. He was brought in as a toy for Belichick and Weis to play with.

Nonsense. BB sucks at drafting TE's and that is that. He has tried drafting or signing all types - some 15 TE's since he's been there - and this was just one type. In the end, he has had to sign Chris Baker to $3M per year because he sucks at evaluating the position so badly.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

UDFA don't count. They are specifically what the OP is whining about.

OP?

Do you mean Sperm?

Either way.....Neal was not a veteran FA the Patriots signed/traded for and was productive.

What is it...2 AM in Italy?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sperm you are off your game lately.

This statement is as wrong as two boys f'ing. Dan Koppen, Nick Kaczur and Matt Light were drafted after the first. An additional was a UDFA that never played college football (Neal). The core of the OL was not top picks. They were not FAs. 2 of them, Koppen and Light were acquired through trading up.

I know who they are and where they were drafted. With them, how many good players on the team is that? Three?

So most of the good players on the team were not acquired by the Patriots drafting them after round one. That is what I said.

9 of those 11 picks you listed (excluding 1st rouders and last year's picks) were from later rounds and productive. Your list does not include Assante who was extremely productive.
Samuel is not on the Patriots anymore. They lost him to FA. Just in case you didn't know.

Belichcik's 1st and 2nd are no better or worst then anyone else's most likely. However, his ability to stock pile picks has allowed him to move up and grab players. He has also done a great job of getting players from the low rounds

His drafting is no better than anyone else in the late rounds other than at QB. It may even be worse than most at all other positions.

Here is the thing Sperm....you can draft for specific purposes if you are good and winning titles.

I think Bethel Johnson was drafted for his specific purpose of being extremely athletic. A KO TD versus the Colts and a TD versus the Titans in the playoffs in which he got behind the D allowed the Patriots to win a title.

The Patriots winning has allowed them to take flyers on all those players you listed. Sure, a few of them flat out sucked and even more were purely meh.

Here is the thing, being a three time champion within four years with a lot of young players, allows you to spend a 4th on Moss (167 catches-2501-34 TDs) or a 2nd/7th on Welker (223 catches-2340 yards-11 TDs).

How many roster spots are the Jets trying to fill in any given year? 10-15? They are good.

Now, what about the Patriots? 3-5? Their 105-34 record over the last eight years allow them so to take chances. Seeing that the only Top 10 pick in the last 8 years was acquired through a trade, they are graded with a different standard. It is different when you are looking to man roster spots 47 through 54.

The Jets underwent a total team rebuild due to years of acquiring players that supposedly fit in with what Herm Edwards wanted to do. Sprinkle that in with a little Eric Mangini judgment on players like Kimo von Suckdick and passing up on a NT for two years to use DRob.

They spent 2-4 years picking up players who were "right" for Edwards, and then 3 years after that picking up players who were "right" for Mangini.

Go look at the players the Pats had early-on. There was a lot more turnover than they've had in the past couple of years. It happens when the coach changes. Even with the Pats. The difference is that the Pats HC hasn't sucked and the team hasn't gone in a totally different direction (twice) in that timeframe.

This whole thing is not about BB sucking at team-building, but rather than the idea that the Pats add everything from their drafts, that success in their drafts is due to stockpiling picks instead of trading up or trading picks for other teams' veterans, and that the Jets are trying to do the opposite. New England has traded picks for players in the past. They have added high-profile FA's in the past, and they have traded up plenty of times in the draft. It's nonsense.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I know who they are and where they were drafted. With them, how many good players on the team is that? Three?

So most of the good players on the team were not acquired by the Patriots drafting them after round one. That is what I said.

Samuel is not on the Patriots anymore. They lost him to FA. Just in case you didn't know.

His drafting is no better than anyone else in the late rounds other than at QB. It may even be worse than most at all other positions.

The Jets underwent a total team rebuild due to years of acquiring players that supposedly fit in with what Herm Edwards wanted to do. Sprinkle that in with a little Eric Mangini judgment on players like Kimo von Suckdick and passing up on a NT for two years to use DRob.

They spent 2-4 years picking up players who were "right" for Edwards, and then 3 years after that picking up players who were "right" for Mangini.

Go look at the players the Pats had early-on. There was a lot more turnover than they've had in the past couple of years. It happens when the coach changes. Even with the Pats. The difference is that the Pats HC hasn't sucked and the team hasn't gone in a totally different direction (twice) in that timeframe.

This whole thing is not about BB sucking at team-building, but rather than the idea that the Pats add everything from their drafts, that success in their drafts is due to stockpiling picks instead of trading up or trading picks for other teams' veterans, and that the Jets are trying to do the opposite. New England has traded picks for players in the past. They have added high-profile FA's in the past, and they have traded up plenty of times in the draft. It's nonsense.

This is like the old rhetorical practice of taking a subject that is plainly obvious (ex: water is wet) and then arguing against it, which can often be done ad infinitum (how can water be wet? It's made up of two gases--is oxygen wet? Obviously not, therefore water is not wet). Ultimately, arguing that the Patriots haven't done a better job building their franchise than the Jets over the past decade is useless. (The Pats can't be a better team because they drafted Chad Jackson!)

Let's leave all the straw men, the cherry-picking and the niggling behind and just please tell me this:

Is the Pats roster, today, better than the Jets roster today? Has it been better for the past decade?

If I'm starting a team tomorrow, and I need a guy to build that team, I'll take Bill Belichick and you guys can have Tannenbaum and Bradway every day, all day. Allllll day.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Here is the thing Sperm....you can draft for specific purposes if you are good and winning titles.

Here is the thing, being a three time champion within four years with a lot of young players, allows you to spend a 4th on Moss (167 catches-2501-34 TDs) or a 2nd/7th on Welker (223 catches-2340 yards-11 TDs).

I am confused, which one of those is the thing? Can you have two things per post? I am pretty sure you can't.

:-P

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is like the old rhetorical practice of taking a subject that is plainly obvious (ex: water is wet) and then arguing against it, which can often be done ad infinitum (how can water be wet? It's made up of two gases--is oxygen wet? Obviously not, therefore water is not wet). Ultimately, arguing that the Patriots haven't done a better job building their franchise than the Jets over the past decade is useless. (The Pats can't be a better team because they drafted Chad Jackson!)

Let's leave all the straw men, the cherry-picking and the niggling behind and just please tell me this:

Is the Pats roster, today, better than the Jets roster today? Has it been better for the past decade?

If I'm starting a team tomorrow, and I need a guy to build that team, I'll take Bill Belichick and you guys can have Tannenbaum and Bradway every day, all day. Allllll day.

Pioli built that dynasty. Now that he is gone it is all over. Wait and see.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I know who they are and where they were drafted. With them, how many good players on the team is that? Three?

So most of the good players on the team were not acquired by the Patriots drafting them after round one. That is what I said.

Samuel is not on the Patriots anymore. They lost him to FA. Just in case you didn't know.

His drafting is no better than anyone else in the late rounds other than at QB. It may even be worse than most at all other positions.

The Jets underwent a total team rebuild due to years of acquiring players that supposedly fit in with what Herm Edwards wanted to do. Sprinkle that in with a little Eric Mangini judgment on players like Kimo von Suckdick and passing up on a NT for two years to use DRob.

They spent 2-4 years picking up players who were "right" for Edwards, and then 3 years after that picking up players who were "right" for Mangini.

Go look at the players the Pats had early-on. There was a lot more turnover than they've had in the past couple of years. It happens when the coach changes. Even with the Pats. The difference is that the Pats HC hasn't sucked and the team hasn't gone in a totally different direction (twice) in that timeframe.

This whole thing is not about BB sucking at team-building, but rather than the idea that the Pats add everything from their drafts, that success in their drafts is due to stockpiling picks instead of trading up or trading picks for other teams' veterans, and that the Jets are trying to do the opposite. New England has traded picks for players in the past. They have added high-profile FA's in the past, and they have traded up plenty of times in the draft. It's nonsense.

Come on Sperm...stop with the simplistic thinking.

The Patriots and Jets are apples and oranges when it comes to team building.

BTW while Assante and Ellis for that matter have left via FA/trade, that does not preclude them from being successful draft picks. As were Deoin Branch, David Givens, Eugene Wilson and Tully Banta Cain. That they went to 'greener' pastures does not preclude them from being good raft picks.

For the record, 16 (9 drafted after the first) of their projected starters are draft picks. Another 17 players, whom project to be their depth are also draft picks and drafted after the 1st. The Patriots were largely built through the draft.

We both know that team building is not solely through the draft. Teams like the Steelers are the exception. Even the 2007 Superbowl champion Giants, had their fair share sprinkling of FAs (Plastico, Derrick Ward, Antonio Pierce, Kawika Mitchell, Sam Madison, Shaun O'Hara, Kareem Mackenzie and Fred Robbins). Almost half their starters were FAs.

Plus, you can not underestimate the addition of veterans acquired via trade for draft picks. If you are saying the 2nd, 4th and 7th the Patriots gave up for Welker/Moss would equal the 390 catches-4801 yards-45 TDs that they produced; you are crazy. Are you saying next year's third round or lower draft pick is going to be more productive then Alex Smith? He could be, but it is unlikely.

Again, since about 2004, the Patriots have been looking to fill in only a handful of roster spots in any given season. This allows them the freedom to move around and acquire picks or take chances on players like Bethel Johnson. Could a player drated at 23rd make the team? Yes, but Belchick's previous drafts allowed them to trade down and acquire three potential starters adn still have 4 picks in the Top 64 next year.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Come on Sperm...stop with the simplistic thinking.

The Patriots and Jets are apples and oranges when it comes to team building.

BTW while Assante and Ellis for that matter have left via FA/trade, that does not preclude them from being successful draft picks. As were Deoin Branch, David Givens, Eugene Wilson and Tully Banta Cain. That they went to 'greener' pastures does not preclude them from being good raft picks.

For the record, 16 (9 drafted after the first) of their projected starters are draft picks. Another 17 players, whom project to be their depth are also draft picks and drafted after the 1st. The Patriots were largely built through the draft.

We both know that team building is not solely through the draft. Teams like the Steelers are the exception. Even the 2007 Superbowl champion Giants, had their fair share sprinkling of FAs (Plastico, Derrick Ward, Antonio Pierce, Kawika Mitchell, Sam Madison, Shaun O'Hara, Kareem Mackenzie and Fred Robbins). Almost half their starters were FAs.

Plus, you can not underestimate the addition of veterans acquired via trade for draft picks. If you are saying the 2nd, 4th and 7th the Patriots gave up for Welker/Moss would equal the 390 catches-4801 yards-45 TDs that they produced; you are crazy. Are you saying next year's third round or lower draft pick is going to be more productive then Alex Smith? He could be, but it is unlikely.

Again, since about 2004, the Patriots have been looking to fill in only a handful of roster spots in any given season. This allows them the freedom to move around and acquire picks or take chances on players like Bethel Johnson. Could a player drated at 23rd make the team? Yes, but Belchick's previous drafts allowed them to trade down and acquire three potential starters adn still have 4 picks in the Top 64 next year.

Tully Canta-Play was a good draft pick?

No, you're not a homer at all. :rolleyes:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is like the old rhetorical practice of taking a subject that is plainly obvious (ex: water is wet) and then arguing against it, which can often be done ad infinitum (how can water be wet? It's made up of two gases--is oxygen wet? Obviously not, therefore water is not wet). Ultimately, arguing that the Patriots haven't done a better job building their franchise than the Jets over the past decade is useless. (The Pats can't be a better team because they drafted Chad Jackson!)

Let's leave all the straw men, the cherry-picking and the niggling behind and just please tell me this:

Is the Pats roster, today, better than the Jets roster today? Has it been better for the past decade?

If I'm starting a team tomorrow, and I need a guy to build that team, I'll take Bill Belichick and you guys can have Tannenbaum and Bradway every day, all day. Allllll day.

The whole point of your thread wasn't who has the better roster, it was the typical BS that that paranoid, woe is me, "I'll continue to whine like a baby every year that doesn't end in a Jets super bowl" Jet fans such as yourself (along with the company line homer Pat* fans and media members who can't jump wash Bellichick's balls enough): The Jets always make the wrong moves in the draft and the Pats* always make the right moves (something tells me if the Pats* made the moves Oakland made, they would be showered with praises by the same people that are slamming the Raiders as we speak). This goes to the typical point that all of these groups make: The Jets do EVERYTHING wrong all of the time, and the Pats* do EVERYTHING right all of the time.

Oh and in case you want to compare, in 2001, who had a better roster than the St Louis Rams? But they started going downhill when they made bad draft choice after bad draft choice (starting with Trung Candidate). New England will run into the same fate unless they dramatically improve their drafts (over the last few years not counting this draft, only Mayo and the kicker proved to have any significant impact).

You can call Bellichick a genius all you want, but if not for Mo Lewis (and spare me the "well Bellichick would have played Brady eventually" argument, because it simply is not true), the "genius" would have been back to being a defensive coordinator by 2005.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The whole point of your thread wasn't who has the better roster, it was the typical BS that that paranoid, woe is me, "I'll continue to whine like a baby every year that doesn't end in a Jets super bowl" Jet fans such as yourself (along with the company line homer Pat* fans and media members who can't jump wash Bellichick's balls enough): The Jets always make the wrong moves in the draft and the Pats* always make the right moves (something tells me if the Pats* made the moves Oakland made, they would be showered with praises by the same people that are slamming the Raiders as we speak). This goes to the typical point that all of these groups make: The Jets do EVERYTHING wrong all of the time, and the Pats* do EVERYTHING right all of the time.

Oh and in case you want to compare, in 2001, who had a better roster than the St Louis Rams? But they started going downhill when they made bad draft choice after bad draft choice (starting with Trung Candidate). New England will run into the same fate unless they dramatically improve their drafts (over the last few years not counting this draft, only Mayo and the kicker proved to have any significant impact).

You can call Bellichick a genius all you want, but if not for Mo Lewis (and spare me the "well Bellichick would have played Brady eventually" argument, because it simply is not true), the "genius" would have been back to being a defensive coordinator by 2005.

Great post. I have re-thought my position and I now realize that the Jets have done so many things well over the past forty years. I don't know what I was thinking. Thank you for showing me the error of my ways, newjakecity. Repped!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The whole point of your thread wasn't who has the better roster, it was the typical BS that that paranoid, woe is me, "I'll continue to whine like a baby every year that doesn't end in a Jets super bowl" Jet fans such as yourself (along with the company line homer Pat* fans and media members who can't jump wash Bellichick's balls enough): The Jets always make the wrong moves in the draft and the Pats* always make the right moves (something tells me if the Pats* made the moves Oakland made, they would be showered with praises by the same people that are slamming the Raiders as we speak). This goes to the typical point that all of these groups make: The Jets do EVERYTHING wrong all of the time, and the Pats* do EVERYTHING right all of the time.

Oh and in case you want to compare, in 2001, who had a better roster than the St Louis Rams? But they started going downhill when they made bad draft choice after bad draft choice (starting with Trung Candidate). New England will run into the same fate unless they dramatically improve their drafts (over the last few years not counting this draft, only Mayo and the kicker proved to have any significant impact).

You can call Bellichick a genius all you want, but if not for Mo Lewis (and spare me the "well Bellichick would have played Brady eventually" argument, because it simply is not true), the "genius" would have been back to being a defensive coordinator by 2005.

2005?

He took over a playoff team from Pete Carroll and went 5-11 in 2000 and after Mo Lewis nearly killed Bledsoe, he was 0-2 in '01. There were rumors prior to the Jets game in '01 that Kraft was weeks away from firing his ass.

There's no way he would have eventually played Brady because he would have been fired if not for Bledsoe going down and Brady saving his career.

For those keeping score at home the "genius'" record without Tom Brady as his starter with the Pats is 15-18.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Great post. I have re-thought my position and I now realize that the Jets have done so many things well over the past forty years. I don't know what I was thinking. Thank you for showing me the error of my ways, newjakecity. Repped!

Good comeback :rolleyes:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2005?

He took over a playoff team from Pete Carroll and went 5-11 in 2000 and after Mo Lewis nearly killed Bledsoe, he was 0-2 in '01. There were rumors prior to the Jets game in '01 that Kraft was weeks away from firing his ass.

There's no way he would have eventually played Brady because he would have been fired if not for Bledsoe going down and Brady saving his career.

For those keeping score at home the "genius'" record without Tom Brady as his starter with the Pats is 15-18.

Yeah I was probably giving the "genius" too much credit.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The whole point of your thread wasn't who has the better roster, it was the typical BS that that paranoid, woe is me, "I'll continue to whine like a baby every year that doesn't end in a Jets super bowl" Jet fans such as yourself (along with the company line homer Pat* fans and media members who can't jump wash Bellichick's balls enough): The Jets always make the wrong moves in the draft and the Pats* always make the right moves (something tells me if the Pats* made the moves Oakland made, they would be showered with praises by the same people that are slamming the Raiders as we speak). This goes to the typical point that all of these groups make: The Jets do EVERYTHING wrong all of the time, and the Pats* do EVERYTHING right all of the time.

Oh and in case you want to compare, in 2001, who had a better roster than the St Louis Rams? But they started going downhill when they made bad draft choice after bad draft choice (starting with Trung Candidate). New England will run into the same fate unless they dramatically improve their drafts (over the last few years not counting this draft, only Mayo and the kicker proved to have any significant impact).

You can call Bellichick a genius all you want, but if not for Mo Lewis (and spare me the "well Bellichick would have played Brady eventually" argument, because it simply is not true), the "genius" would have been back to being a defensive coordinator by 2005.

Jake put it as well as I could have.

No one is arguing that the Patriots are (and have been) better. But the idea that it's due to repeated trading down instead of targeting a certain player, even if others may think it to be a reach at the time, is ridiculous.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Jake put it as well as I could have.

No one is arguing that the Patriots are (and have been) better. But the idea that it's due to repeated trading down instead of targeting a certain player, even if others may think it to be a reach at the time, is ridiculous.

Did I ever directly argue this? I may have--I have no short-term memory and I talk alot of ****--but did I ever say this? My point was that the Pats build and built a better team. I veer from my points. It's part of my charm.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

He took over a playoff team from Pete Carroll and went 5-11 in 2000 and after Mo Lewis nearly killed Bledsoe, he was 0-2 in '01. There were rumors prior to the Jets game in '01 that Kraft was weeks away from firing his ass.

There's no way he would have eventually played Brady because he would have been fired if not for Bledsoe going down and Brady saving his career.

For those keeping score at home the "genius'" record without Tom Brady as his starter with the Pats is 15-18.

The Pats were 8-8 in 1999 and on a downward spiral with Pete Carroll. BB then cleaned out the roster and had a disappointing 2000 season.

I would love to know where you heard those rumors about Kraft firing Belichick back in 2001 as I've never heard anything.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Did I ever directly argue this? I may have--I have no short-term memory and I talk alot of ****--but did I ever say this? My point was that the Pats build and built a better team. I veer from my points. It's part of my charm.

The Jets targeted Sanchez at a time when they had no definite QB and at a time when he was attainable.

After that, they had someone available to them who was (presumably) a full round ahead of where they expected him to go.

There was also Sheppard with their 5th round pick.

The only "wasted" draft pick, to me, was the sideshow that was Brett Favre.

The insinuation, or as I took it, was that the results of this year's draft picks was "the reason" the Jets suck so much compared to the Pats. Meanwhile they had few specific needs other than bodies to make up for all their multitude of upcoming FA's after this season is over.

And I veer from my points as well. Those times that I have one.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Jets targeted Sanchez at a time when they had no definite QB and at a time when he was attainable.

After that, they had someone available to them who was (presumably) a full round ahead of where they expected him to go.

There was also Sheppard with their 5th round pick.

The only "wasted" draft pick, to me, was the sideshow that was Brett Favre.

The insinuation, or as I took it, was that the results of this year's draft picks was "the reason" the Jets suck so much compared to the Pats. Meanwhile they had few specific needs other than bodies to make up for all their multitude of upcoming FA's after this season is over.

And I veer from my points as well. Those times that I have one.

I think I love you. Is that wrong? Is it?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.


×
×
  • Create New...