JI/JN Border War Mafia Game Thread

[Tony Soprano]

Hey wiseguys. Been really sick the last tow days, with some super-mudbutt, etc. Anyway, I've skimmed to catch up but will need to re-read to add anything.

So what happened with Carlito, I don't understand?

[Ace Rothstein]

Doggin never said the 4 were specifically mafia or a team, he just uses the word "they" to describe the group.

He also says that there is "almost" a cult, if you will.

So, who knows what the **** is going on.

I dont know Ace, I find it really hard to believe there are 2 Doc's in the game. And for right now, I like Fredo's story much more...I have never felt good about Virgil's.

However, I find it interesting Tony S. hasnt commented on anything considering he was very active and then all of sudden, not a peep.

I really don't think there are 2 docs either, I'm just not sure which is more believable. Virgil's initial reveal is almost so scummy I can't believe actual scum would go that route unless of course he was directed by the CL to do so in hopes of drawing out the real doc? My main concern with Crusher Corleone as I said is I would think the doc would be told how their protection works.

On the other hand in the NY Jets mafia game Pac's reveal and "investigations" seemed more detailed than Vic's and yet Pac was the liar...

Don't have much time right now but had a thought. Is it possible one of the four names given started as the Cult Leader, and the other three were scum.

I suppose its not as definite as I assumed it was that all 4 names given were the scum team but I didn't want to get too caught up on the flavor. I saw 4 names for a JI team plus a cult but like I said its possible I read this too literally. I don't think Doggin is too big on getting people caught up in the flavor posts (just look at his death scenes which basically are "this guy, who had this role, is dead"). Gun to my head I'd still say there's one more mafia member plus the cult

Ace when I first got the response back I was definately like WTF. The thing is, why would you really need to know? Remember this, we're not told if a protection worked or not except in the case where a player died. Ie Joe. But, whenever you protect someone your not told if that person had an attemtp and if it failed. I believe Virgil and I both agreeed on that.

Now if I new for sure if I could only protect one or the other that may cause me to choose a player that is most likely the target of the group I can protect from, but all I was told is that I get to protect a player each night and this would include myself.

Thats a good point on not knowing if your protection works, but I still think you'd know how your protection works. But the cult is a new twist and I suppose I could see Doggin holding off on giving you too much info about it.

I'm just gonna throw out a theory to the other guys and if its ridiculous ignore it but its just something to think about: What about the possibility that Virgil was the legit Doc, has been converted and the cult wants us to lynch him so that we'll see he's cult and confirm Fredo as doc? It could be a similar scenario to the Zombie game where Vic was the cop, got bitten and converted, and CTM as scum counterclaimed. Vic gets lynched, turns up as scum, and CTM took the town for a ride...

[Virgil Sollozzo]

I'm just gonna throw out a theory to the other guys and if its ridiculous ignore it but its just something to think about: What about the possibility that Virgil was the legit Doc, has been converted and the cult wants us to lynch him so that we'll see he's cult and confirm Fredo as doc? It could be a similar scenario to the Zombie game where Vic was the cop, got bitten and converted, and CTM as scum counterclaimed. Vic gets lynched, turns up as scum, and CTM took the town for a ride...

In that case though wouldn't my death scene say I was the converted doctor? The way Frank's death said he was converted townie. With that said, I don't doubt the cult wants to lynch me.

I believe everyone has now posted this day phase. Meaning again, no one has been "silenced". I am seriously doubting Carlito more and more as we see no other players being silenced. Unless Cabot was actually able to silence people...but that is not part of the Village Idiot role, yes?

[Virgil Sollozzo]

I suppose its not as definite as I assumed it was that all 4 names given were the scum team but I didn't want to get too caught up on the flavor. I saw 4 names for a JI team plus a cult but like I said its possible I read this too literally. I don't think Doggin is too big on getting people caught up in the flavor posts (just look at his death scenes which basically are "this guy, who had this role, is dead"). Gun to my head I'd still say there's one more mafia member plus the cult

You are probably correct. Rereading it, the phrase "But that's not the end of it" implies the cult is something else in addition to the four names given.

[Fredo Corleone]

Doggin please mod kill me. A little fishing trip and a slug in the back of the skull should be fine. Thank you for your time.

[Ace Rothstein]

In that case though wouldn't my death scene say I was the converted doctor? The way Frank's death said he was converted townie. With that said, I don't doubt the cult wants to lynch me.

I believe everyone has now posted this day phase. Meaning again, no one has been "silenced". I am seriously doubting Carlito more and more as we see no other players being silenced. Unless Cabot was actually able to silence people...but that is not part of the Village Idiot role, yes?

In regards to the death scene, maybe? When Vic was lynched in that game all we were told was that he was a zombie. But you're right Frank was a converted townie so who knows how the cult thing works.

As far as I know the Village Idiot doesn't actually have a night role. The role's objective is to appear guilty by saying dumb things if I understand the mafia wiki correctly. What better way to appear as a liar than to say you can use multiple powers? Again he was on Lefty from day 1 and I'm sure if Lefty came up innocent Joe would've just revealed himself the village idiot or claimed his investigating role that night was not of a sane cop.

The main reason I haven't voted for Carlito is if we lynch him and he and Marcellus are really townie lovers it should be game, set, and match for the cult.

I'd really like for Marcellus to elaborate on his post about thinking scum took a shot at one of them last night.

[Virgil Sollozzo]

Another thought. In one of the fast cops games Dan the doctor tried to bait the serial killer by "naively" announcing he was protecting JiF. But protected himself instead. You can look at my play as a similar attempt. A perhaps too obvious, desperate move.

[Fredo Corleone]

Thats a good point on not knowing if your protection works, but I still think you'd know how your protection works. But the cult is a new twist and I suppose I could see Doggin holding off on giving you too much info about it.

Ace I still don't understand why your insisting I don't know how my protection works? I was told I could protect a player each night. Now their was no detail whether it would work on cult or even if it word work on NK. But, he also didn't tell me it wouldn't.

He simply told me that I could choose any player to protect including myself. Very similar to the directions I got last time I was the doc. I have to paraphrase and not use exact language because Doggins rules are very clear on relating his PM messages.

So I knew exactly how my protection worked. I pick a player and they would be protected. Unlike Virgils,my ability to protect didn't change as the game went on.

Personally I find it a little harder to believe that Virgils ability to protect was so complicated he had to check it twice and it actually got more affective as the game went on.

[Virgil Sollozzo]

Ace I still don't understand why your insisting I don't know how my protection works? I was told I could protect a player each night. Now their was no detail whether it would work on cult or even if it word work on NK. But, he also didn't tell me it wouldn't.

He simply told me that I could choose any player to protect including myself. Very similar to the directions I got last time I was the doc. I have to paraphrase and not use exact language because Doggins rules are very clear on relating his PM messages.

So I knew exactly how my protection worked. I pick a player and they would be protected. Unlike Virgils,my ability to protect didn't change as the game went on.

Personally I find it a little harder to believe that Virgils ability to protect was so complicated he had to check it twice and it actually got more affective as the game went on.

Where did I say I had to check it twice. The point of my plan was to make the cult think I couldn't protect against conversions. I was in no way confused about my powers.

[Fredo Corleone]

Another thought. In one of the fast cops games Dan the doctor tried to bait the serial killer by "naively" announcing he was protecting JiF. But protected himself instead. You can look at my play as a similar attempt. A perhaps too obvious, desperate move.

Did his work?

I wasn't involved in that game. I was in the one earlier and got absolutely owned by JVOR. Thats why I have a voodo doll that looks like him and that ache in his back is actually a golf shoe spike.

[Fredo Corleone]

Where did I say I had to check it twice. The point of my plan was to make the cult think I couldn't protect against conversions. I was in no way confused about my powers.

Oh my bad. I thought only the fact you offered to join the cult if they convert you and you would pay them by protecting the CL for one night was your bait and switch tactic.

I didn't realize that you calling yourself a Dr first, and then deciding you where a healer was part of that. Brilliant I must say.

What I meant by checking it twice is the first time you use the word Dr and I figured you went back to re-read it and realized the word was actually healer. Easy to confuse those two.

[Ace Rothstein]

Ace I still don't understand why your insisting I don't know how my protection works? I was told I could protect a player each night. Now their was no detail whether it would work on cult or even if it word work on NK. But, he also didn't tell me it wouldn't.

He simply told me that I could choose any player to protect including myself. Very similar to the directions I got last time I was the doc. I have to paraphrase and not use exact language because Doggins rules are very clear on relating his PM messages.

So I knew exactly how my protection worked. I pick a player and they would be protected. Unlike Virgils,my ability to protect didn't change as the game went on.

Personally I find it a little harder to believe that Virgils ability to protect was so complicated he had to check it twice and it actually got more affective as the game went on.

I guess because I've never been doctor I don't know how detailed your role PM is (Even in vanilla mafia vs town games I always assumed it would say "you can protect 1 player per night from NK" or something along those lines). And I definitely get what your going for with Virgil's explanation being complicated. See my earlier example of Pac vs Vic in the NY Jets game. But I guess with the cult maybe we shouldn't be basing too much off past games?

[Virgil Sollozzo]

Did his work?

I wasn't involved in that game. I was in the one earlier and got absolutely owned by JVOR. Thats why I have a voodo doll that looks like him and that ache in his back is actually a golf shoe spike.

No in that Shutout did not target Dan but yes in that to be safe he shot one of the top suspects instead of a confirmed innocent. Mine may have been even less effective but I think it was a similar play.

[Virgil Sollozzo]

Oh my bad. I thought only the fact you offered to join the cult if they convert you and you would pay them by protecting the CL for one night was your bait and switch tactic.

I didn't realize that you calling yourself a Dr first, and then deciding you where a healer was part of that. Brilliant I must say.

What I meant by checking it twice is the first time you use the word Dr and I figured you went back to re-read it and realized the word was actually healer. Easy to confuse those two.

I've never claimed it was a brilliant move, have I. I called myself a doctor first because my understanding was a doctor can only protect against NKs not cult conversions, which was the story I was trying to sell. When the night phase ended I immediately explained I was actually the town healer, able to do both. I said Joe's use of the word "healing" came to my attention for that reason. The two roles are very similar since it appears I can do everything a doctor can. I am also not sure if the terms can be interchangeable when there is no cult involved, but here it seems if you are a doctor that there must be some difference since our roles have different names, yes?

[Virgil Sollozzo]

I guess because I've never been doctor I don't know how detailed your role PM is (Even in vanilla mafia vs town games I always assumed it would say "you can protect 1 player per night from NK" or something along those lines). And I definitely get what your going for with Virgil's explanation being complicated. See my earlier example of Pac vs Vic in the NY Jets game. But I guess with the cult maybe we shouldn't be basing too much off past games?

My role PM was simple and concise. Three sentences saying my character name and that I'm the town healer, that I can protect one person each night from NKs and cult conversion, and that I win when all non-townies are gone.

[Fredo Corleone]

I guess because I've never been doctor I don't know how detailed your role PM is (Even in vanilla mafia vs town games I always assumed it would say "you can protect 1 player per night from NK" or something along those lines). And I definitely get what your going for with Virgil's explanation being complicated. See my earlier example of Pac vs Vic in the NY Jets game. But I guess with the cult maybe we shouldn't be basing too much off past games?

I wasn't in the NY game. But your description of the PM is actually very similar in spirit. The details seem to be in what your allowed to do each night and what your not allowed to do. What exactly you can protect against doesn't seem to be an issue. You just send the name in each night and you find out in the morning if you chose right.

The big difference in this game is the one time I chose someone other than myself he dies anyways. Possibly blocked by Vito. I also thought for a minute I may be the weak Doc variation, but I can't 100% buy that because that would mean the mafia or the cult never picked me. I guess we could find that out for sure tonight.

[Fredo Corleone]

No in that Shutout did not target Dan but yes in that to be safe he shot one of the top suspects instead of a confirmed innocent. Mine may have been even less effective but I think it was a similar play.

Basically both bait and switches.

[Virgil Sollozzo]

Basically both bait and switches.

Sure, mine more so than his. I suppose he didn't offer a fake deal to the SK.

[Fredo Corleone]

I've never claimed it was a brilliant move, have I. I called myself a doctor first because my understanding was a doctor can only protect against NKs not cult conversions, which was the story I was trying to sell. When the night phase ended I immediately explained I was actually the town healer, able to do both. I said Joe's use of the word "healing" came to my attention for that reason. The two roles are very similar since it appears I can do everything a doctor can. I am also not sure if the terms can be interchangeable when there is no cult involved, but here it seems if you are a doctor that there must be some difference since our roles have different names, yes?

So when offering your services to the cult you figured it would be more palatable if you where just a Dr. Then Joe mentioned the word healing you decided it would be better to use the word healer? This I really don't get. Why not just use the word Doggin gave you in the PM, since you seem to be so interested in the details of your role and protection.

I guess in a non-cult game the difference between healer and Dr would be useless. Yet in this game Doggin felt the need to use healer and attached the ability to block cult as well. Yet you felt the cult would be more likely to pick you or fall for your desperate play if you use the word Dr. So you lied? What the hell is Doggins rule about liars? LOL

[Fredo Corleone]

Sure, mine more so than his. I suppose he didn't offer a fake deal to the SK.

Man your a crafty one. Sure glad your on our side.

[Ace Rothstein]

My role PM was simple and concise. Three sentences saying my character name and that I'm the town healer, that I can protect one person each night from NKs and cult conversion, and that I win when all non-townies are gone.

I wasn't in the NY game. But your description of the PM is actually very similar in spirit. The details seem to be in what your allowed to do each night and what your not allowed to do. What exactly you can protect against doesn't seem to be an issue. You just send the name in each night and you find out in the morning if you chose right.

The big difference in this game is the one time I chose someone other than myself he dies anyways. Possibly blocked by Vito. I also thought for a minute I may be the weak Doc variation, but I can't 100% buy that because that would mean the mafia or the cult never picked me. I guess we could find that out for sure tonight.

I think I understand now. Thank you both for clearing that up I know that you can only say so much about your PMs so I appreciate it. Having said that I get the feeling one of you is a liar. Unfortunately I have no clue which one. Perhaps one of you could try to cure Soprano of his mudbutt issues?

Fredo, why the request to be modkilled?

[Virgil Sollozzo]

So when offering your services to the cult you figured it would be more palatable if you where just a Dr. Then Joe mentioned the word healing you decided it would be better to use the word healer? This I really don't get. Why not just use the word Doggin gave you in the PM, since you seem to be so interested in the details of your role and protection.

I guess in a non-cult game the difference between healer and Dr would be useless. Yet in this game Doggin felt the need to use healer and attached the ability to block cult as well. Yet you felt the cult would be more likely to pick you or fall for your desperate play if you use the word Dr. So you lied? What the hell is Doggins rule about liars? LOL

I think you're not understanding what I'm saying.

Doctor = can't protect against conversions.

Healer = can protect against conversions.

For the purposes of getting the cult to target me, which one would I want to say I was. The one that can't protect against conversions. Why did I do this. Because I can protect against conversions.

Joe used the word "healing" before I made my offer to the cult. I am saying I knew I was the healer the whole time, I'm not that confused to not know the name of my role. I said I started believing Joe more when he used the word because I didn't know how he would know we'd have a "healer" rather than "doctor". It's a separate thing, just trying to prove I've been the healer the entire time. Look back, as soon as he used the word I quoted that sentence and said it was possible he was telling the truth.

[Fredo Corleone]

I think I understand now. Thank you both for clearing that up I know that you can only say so much about your PMs so I appreciate it. Having said that I get the feeling one of you is a liar. Unfortunately I have no clue which one. Perhaps one of you could try to cure Soprano of his mudbutt issues?

Fredo, why the request to be modkilled?

I accidently posted as that fat **** Crusher and immediately started channeling EY. Im better now. Thanks for asking.

[Virgil Sollozzo]

Man your a crafty one. Sure glad your on our side.

Desperation and brilliance are entirely different. I've never pretended it was the smartest play but I thought we were at end game. Again, I apologize if it ends up hurting the town more than helping, but I was trying my best with the information I had.

[Fredo Corleone]

I think you're not understanding what I'm saying.

Doctor = can't protect against conversions.

Healer = can protect against conversions.

For the purposes of getting the cult to target me, which one would I want to say I was. The one that can't protect against conversions. Why did I do this. Because I can protect against conversions.

Joe used the word "healing" before I made my offer to the cult. I am saying I knew I was the healer the whole time, I'm not that confused to not know the name of my role. I said I started believing Joe more when he used the word because I didn't know how he would know we'd have a "healer" rather than "doctor". It's a separate thing, just trying to prove I've been the healer the entire time. Look back, as soon as he used the word I quoted that sentence and said it was possible he was telling the truth.

I saw that. The part I don't get is if the cult tried and covert you and you blocked it, what would that accomplish except waste one night on conversion. I guess that would help.

But did you really think the CL was going to show himself in the thread because you where willing to protect him one night? Why would he? Nobody did then and nobody does now have alcue who he is?

Your doing a great job of giving a reason for what you did, but your plan was really kinda lame. Yet, in all fairness I guess you thought it made sense to dislcose yourself as the Dr to protect one person from being converted when they tried and wasted one on you. I guess this would insure you would spoil them one night and not matter on who you protected. Yet the rest of the game you would have to protect yourself or put yourself at risk.

[Virgil Sollozzo]

I saw that. The part I don't get is if the cult tried and covert you and you blocked it, what would that accomplish except waste one night on conversion. I guess that would help.

But did you really think the CL was going to show himself in the thread because you where willing to protect him one night? Why would he? Nobody did then and nobody does now have alcue who he is?

Your doing a great job of giving a reason for what you did, but your plan was really kinda lame. Yet, in all fairness I guess you thought it made sense to dislcose yourself as the Dr to protect one person from being converted when they tried and wasted one on you. I guess this would insure you would spoil them one night and not matter on who you protected. Yet the rest of the game you would have to protect yourself or put yourself at risk.

Read through my posts from that morning. I was gradually thinking through the numbers and came to the conclusion that unless we prevented the cult from converting successfully, the game was probably over. I thought stopping them that night was necessary, and it looked pretty hopeless to me so I thought what the hell. I really didn't think there would be much of a "rest of the game" to worry about, but I'm glad there is. I understand in hindsight my plan looks extremely lame but it was a last-ditch effort from me.

[Marcellus Wallace]

In regards to the death scene, maybe? When Vic was lynched in that game all we were told was that he was a zombie. But you're right Frank was a converted townie so who knows how the cult thing works.

As far as I know the Village Idiot doesn't actually have a night role. The role's objective is to appear guilty by saying dumb things if I understand the mafia wiki correctly. What better way to appear as a liar than to say you can use multiple powers? Again he was on Lefty from day 1 and I'm sure if Lefty came up innocent Joe would've just revealed himself the village idiot or claimed his investigating role that night was not of a sane cop.

The main reason I haven't voted for Carlito is if we lynch him and he and Marcellus are really townie lovers it should be game, set, and match for the cult.

I'd really like for Marcellus to elaborate on his post about thinking scum took a shot at one of them last night.

Yeah, every night (since we've known each other) me and Carlito are able to protect one of us to protect. Just another reason why there is likely not two docs(or healers) in this game. If there were that would mean that 3 people could be protected every night which is not likely IMO

[Fredo Corleone]

Well Virgil no one can accuse neither one of us for not putting it out their. I also think we blew the door off the silencing issue. Unless Cabot was a special idiot with special powers. In a couple days I would like to see what our fouled mouth fag Carlito has to add.

I will pick this up tommorrow. Might not have alot of time in the am, but I will be around after dinner.

[Fredo Corleone]

Read through my posts from that morning. I was gradually thinking through the numbers and came to the conclusion that unless we prevented the cult from converting successfully, the game was probably over. I thought stopping them that night was necessary, and it looked pretty hopeless to me so I thought what the hell. I really didn't think there would be much of a "rest of the game" to worry about, but I'm glad there is. I understand in hindsight my plan looks extremely lame but it was a last-ditch effort from me.

I read it then and I read it again tonight. I didn't agree with it then and I still think it was a little overly reactionary and seemed contrived.

[Fredo Corleone]

Yeah, every night (since we've known each other) me and Carlito are able to protect one of us to protect. Just another reason why there is likely not two docs(or healers) in this game. If there were that would mean that 3 people could be protected every night which is not likely IMO

Did Doggin tell you if you could protect yourselves from Cult conversion, NK's or both.

[Virgil Sollozzo]

I read it then and I read it again tonight. I didn't agree with it then and I still think it was a little overly reactionary and seemed contrived.

Well absolutely no one said so at the time. You posted under your voluptuous alias without acknowledging it or suggesting more correct numbers.

[Marcellus Wallace]

Did Doggin tell you if you could protect yourselves from Cult conversion, NK's or both.

His pm just said NKs.

[The Crusher]

Well absolutely no one said so at the time. You posted under your voluptuous alias without acknowledging it or suggesting more correct numbers.

I agree at the time everyone was very interested in what was being said. I didn't add to the numbers becuase it was just speculation and I was more interested in picking up something I thought might help the town. Not add to the confusion.

In hindsight you guys couldn't be more worng because with only one Cultist dead we still have a game so the numbers in a word,, Sucked.

Virgil you and I have talked quite a bit tonight and kept it very respectful. Please don't start with insults and turn this into something ugly. I am not voluptuous, Im fat. I'll let you slide this time if you let me try on your hat.

[The Crusher]

His pm just said NKs.

You said earlier that you think the mafia tried to kill one of you two. Did Doggin inform you that an attempt was made and failed?

[Marcellus Wallace]

You said earlier that you think the mafia tried to kill one of you two. Did Doggin inform you that an attempt was made and failed?

Nope. It was just a guess. I(we) have a giant bullseye on our heads based on the reveal yesterday and last night no one died. I'm just guessing there was an attempt on us last night and the protection was successful.