The Bay effect.

[nyjunc]

They had been through this before w/ Manny, supposedly time after time they were fed up and wanted to deal him but they managed to survive and thrive.

[PFSIKH]

They had been through this before w/ Manny, supposedly time after time they were fed up and wanted to deal him but they managed to survive and thrive.

Yes, but there is a difference when he is in the last year of a contract and you only have to eat 7 million. Compared to ~$25 million in 2007. ~$45 million in 2006, etc etc.

The Sox have money, but not enough to eat that much.

[nyjunc]

Yes, but there is a difference when he is in the last year of a contract and you only have to eat 7 million. Compared to ~$25 million in 2007. ~$45 million in 2006, etc etc.

The Sox have money, but not enough to eat that much.

They had an option on him, didn't they? They did what they felt they had to do, they made as good of a trade as they could have in that situation BUT they are still not as good w/o him as they would have been w/ him.

[Thai Jet]

They had no option. Theo went to the players and they overwhelmingly said that Manny needed to go. Enough was enough. He was tearing the clubhouse apart.

BTW: Has Manny addressed his Dodgers teammates after receiving his 50 game ban and potentially derailing their season?

[Thai Jet]

They had an option on him, didn't they? They did what they felt they had to do, they made as good of a trade as they could have in that situation BUT they are still not as good w/o him as they would have been w/ him.

Obviously you're missing the big picture on how Manny was tearing apart the Red Sox clubhouse with his BS. You can't just look at how he played with LA and ASSume he would have done thje same with the Sox. I think his performence his last few weeks with Boston is how he would have played for them the rest of the year. In that case they ARE a better team with Bay.

[PFSIKH]

Obviously you're missing the big picture on how Manny was tearing apart the Red Sox clubhouse with his BS. You can't just look at how he played with LA and ASSume he would have done thje same with the Sox. I think his performence his last few weeks with Boston is how he would have played for them the rest of the year. In that case they ARE a better team with Bay.

+10

[JonEJet]

When talking about Bay and Manny

You most certainly are not taking into account the Papi factor

With Manny, Big Papi

With Bay, Big Pop Up

I'll take the Sawx without Manny EVERY SINGLE DAY OF THE WEEK

[PFSIKH]

When talking about Bay and Manny

You most certainly are not taking into account the Papi factor

With Manny, Big Papi

With Bay, Big Pop Up

I'll take the Sawx without Manny EVERY SINGLE DAY OF THE WEEK

You are correct.

However, Big Papi has not been Big Papi since 2007.

He had the wrist injury last year.

This year he has some sort of mental block. The Rays/Sox announcers on Sunday said he is taking good swings, he is just missing. Maybe he is trying to over compensate, but he needs to do something.

[Klecko73isGod]

You are correct.

However, Big Papi has not been Big Papi since 2007.

He had the wrist injury last year.

This year he has some sort of mental block. The Rays/Sox announcers on Sunday said he is taking good swings, he is just missing. Maybe he is trying to over compensate, but he needs to do something.

Either that, or David Arias quit the juice.

[PFSIKH]

Either that, or David Arias quit the juice.

He is fat there with a huge head.

Show me a stark contrast like there was with Giamb-Roid.

It is obvious Ortiz used something to get bigger, but unlike with Bonds or Giamb-Roid. There is no rail thin player with a small head and then the now roided out swollen head picture.

[Klecko73isGod]

He is fat there with a huge head.

Show me a stark contrast like there was with Giamb-Roid.

It is obvious Ortiz used something to get bigger, but unlike with Bonds or Giamb-Roid. There is no rail thin player with a small head and then the now roided out swollen head picture.

I never denied Giambi was a juicer and neither did he.

Ortiz put on 70 lbs in one offseason and suddenly became a major homerun threat.

[Guido Monzino]

I never denied Giambi was a juicer and neither did he.

Ortiz put on 70 lbs in one offseason and suddenly became a major homerun threat.

He knows that. What we have here is a classic case of Boston blindness due to a severe case of homerism.

Don't you realize while you wear that "B" on your cap you can do no wrong? It just like how Manny was "just being Manny" when he was in town. Now that he's been traded though, they are finally on board with the rest of the universe that thinks he's a disgrace.

Ortiz is as clear a case as there ever has been.

[Klecko73isGod]

He knows that. What we have here is a classic case of Boston blindness due to a severe case of homerism.

Don't you realize while you wear that "B" on your cap you can do no wrong? It just like how Manny was "just being Manny" when he was in town. Now that he's been traded though, they are finally on board with the rest of the universe that thinks he's a disgrace.

Ortiz is as clear a case as there ever has been.

Its really no different than when Viniateri was the Pats kicker he was the greatest clutch kicker in NFL history. The second he left , they all started posting about how he was never really all that good.

[PFSIKH]

Its really no different than when Viniateri was the Pats kicker he was the greatest clutch kicker in NFL history. The second he left , they all started posting about how he was never really all that good.

No. They despised him because he went to the Colts.

He knows that. What we have here is a classic case of Boston blindness due to a severe case of homerism.

Don't you realize while you wear that "B" on your cap you can do no wrong? It just like how Manny was "just being Manny" when he was in town. Now that he's been traded though, they are finally on board with the rest of the universe that thinks he's a disgrace.

Ortiz is as clear a case as there ever has been.

Hardly.

What are the signs given for being a roid user? Larger head and going from a small frame to being a MLB type body. As far as Ortiz goes, it is also his increase in numbers upon arriving to Boston. I think we all agree these are signs a player might have juiced.

There is no conclusive photographic evidence like there is with Giamb-Roid and Bonds. Ortiz is obviously bigger in the body. Again, as I said before, I am not saying he did not do anything, but your visual evidence is lacking. David Arias was chunky, with thick arms and bid head. David Ortiz is in better shape, same think arms and big head. Hardly, indeitable evidence.

His increased production. If he had a Brady Anderson like lift off and crash, then you would have evidence. He went from a less talented team, pitcher friendly park and as he said, "having to hit like a little bitch". To a better team, in a hitter friendly park with an very inviting right field porch during his prime playing years. Now, as he hits his middle 30s we see a decline.

Seeing Ortiz was a player during the Roid era he is far from being above suspicion. I am not saying he is clean either, but the evidence Yankee fans uses does not stand up to scrutiny.

[Klecko73isGod]

No. They despised him because he went to the Colts.

Hardly.

What are the signs given for being a roid user? Larger head and going from a small frame to being a MLB type body. As far as Ortiz goes, it is also his increase in numbers upon arriving to Boston. I think we all agree these are signs a player might have juiced.

There is no conclusive photographic evidence like there is with Giamb-Roid and Bonds. Ortiz is obviously bigger in the body. Again, as I said before, I am not saying he did not do anything, but your visual evidence is lacking. David Arias was chunky, with thick arms and bid head. David Ortiz is in better shape, same think arms and big head. Hardly, indeitable evidence.

His increased production. If he had a Brady Anderson like lift off and crash, then you would have evidence. He went from a less talented team, pitcher friendly park and as he said, "having to hit like a little bitch". To a better team, in a hitter friendly park with an very inviting right field porch during his prime playing years. Now, as he hits his middle 30s we see a decline.

Seeing Ortiz was a player during the Roid era he is far from being above suspicion. I am not saying he is clean either, but the evidence Yankee fans uses does not stand up to scrutiny.

Only if you're blinded by homerism.

He put on 70 pounds of muscle and his head increased 2 and a half hat sizes in less than a year.

[PFSIKH]

Only if you're blinded by homerism.

He put on 70 pounds of muscle and his head increased 2 and a half hat sizes in less than a year.

WTF are you talking about?

He was listed at 230 when he was a Twin.

He is now listed at 230 (which is wrong; he is bigger).

He did not put on 70 lbs. His head was huge to begin with. Go look at your picture for reference.

[Thor99]

Only if you're blinded by homerism.

He put on 70 pounds of muscle and his head increased 2 and a half hat sizes in less than a year.

Please show me an article that states where he gained 70 lbs. in one off season.

[Guido Monzino]

Only if you're blinded by homerism.

He put on 70 pounds of muscle and his head increased 2 and a half hat sizes in less than a year.

It's not even worth arguing. It's like trying to teach a cow to dance the Tango. It's just never going to take.

Nevermind that even Ortiz admits that he's "not sure" if he ever took steroids, worked with a trainer that was a proven steroids pusher, comes from a country where steroids were acceptable and widely used in the sport, and had a monumental increase in size and production. None of that matters. All that matters is that they don't want to believe it. So that makes it so in their minds.

[Matt39]

Come on now. Papi was a great hitter for Boston, but lets be honest...the guy was most likely using some sort of enhancement. This is a collosal fall off.

He's always been fat, Im sure he hid a lot of that muscle under the flab. That muscle that he had melted away...being serious.

[Klecko73isGod]

WTF are you talking about?

He was listed at 230 when he was a Twin.

He is now listed at 230 (which is wrong; he is bigger).

He did not put on 70 lbs. His head was huge to begin with. Go look at your picture for reference.

If weighs less than 310 I'd be stunned. And his head was big to begin with, but it's significantly larger now.

How much you want to bet his name is on the of players who tested positive in '03?

[PFSIKH]

If weighs less than 310 I'd be stunned. And his head was big to begin with, but it's significantly larger now.

How much you want to bet his name is on the of players who tested positive in '03?

Would a 300 lbs guy have more triples then Jacoby Ellsbury? I think not.

I am not dumb enough to bet on any MLB players pharmaceutical practices.

[Lil Bit Special]

Did Big Popout do 'roids? I dont doubt it.

But his lack of production this year has nothing to do with Manny gone or no longer using 'roids. He's just not picking up the pitches well and is slower to the plate. Just being a little off has caused him to suck royally. He isnt driving the ball like he did. He makes lousy contact almost every at bat, if he does make contact.

Its just Ortiz is getting old fast. He is listed as 33 but he is from the Dom. Rep. so who knows how old he is.

[PFSIKH]

Did Big Popout do 'roids? I dont doubt it.

But his lack of production this year has nothing to do with Manny gone or no longer using 'roids. He's just not picking up the pitches well and is slower to the plate. Just being a little off has caused him to suck royally. He isnt driving the ball like he did. He makes lousy contact almost every at bat, if he does make contact.

Its just Ortiz is getting old fast. He is listed as 33 but he is from the Dom. Rep. so who knows how old he is.

I have always wondered that.

His decline was quick.

[Lil Bit Special]

I have always wondered that.

His decline was quick.

It happens. Just a touch slower recognizing a pitch and swinging the bat leads to poor results. Plus I just dont see him making adjustments trying to improve. Its almost like he expects it to just improve on its own.

Plus he didnt get to use hgh this offseason to keep him young.

[nyjunc]

Obviously you're missing the big picture on how Manny was tearing apart the Red Sox clubhouse with his BS. You can't just look at how he played with LA and ASSume he would have done thje same with the Sox. I think his performence his last few weeks with Boston is how he would have played for them the rest of the year. In that case they ARE a better team with Bay.

I can assume he would have b/c he had done the same things for years supposedly tearing his team apart only to lead them to Championships.

As far as that Giambi pic goes, we all know Giambi did steroids but those photos were from when he was a teenager, bodies tend to change from your teens into your 20s, don't you think? You could have shown him from 10 years ago and made a better comparison.

[PFSIKH]

I can assume he would have b/c he had done the same things for years supposedly tearing his team apart only to lead them to Championships.

As far as that Giambi pic goes, we all know Giambi did steroids but those photos were from when he was a teenager, bodies tend to change from your teens into your 20s, don't you think? You could have shown him from 10 years ago and made a better comparison.

They do, but no one is above suspicion.

That is why I do not understand people on this board giving Ryan Howard a clean bill of health.

[Klecko73isGod]

They do, but no one is above suspicion.

That is why I do not understand people on this board giving Ryan Howard a clean bill of health.

Maybe because as long as I've seen Ryan Howard, he's looked like he does now.

[nyjunc]

They do, but no one is above suspicion.

That is why I do not understand people on this board giving Ryan Howard a clean bill of health.

I don't think anyone is above suspicion. I have said that all along, I am sure many mroe Yanks did it as well as many more Sox and players from all teams.

[PFSIKH]

I don't think anyone is above suspicion. I have said that all along, I am sure many mroe Yanks did it as well as many more Sox and players from all teams.

+1 No doubt.

Maybe because as long as I've seen Ryan Howard, he's looked like he does now.

So he roided before getting to MLB.

He was such a phenom he went to Southwest Missouri State. He was a 5th round draft pick in 2001. The 5th round!!!

5 years later he jacks 58 homeruns in his first full season. Why?

R O I D S.