Air France Flight 447

[Gainzo]

This one of the weirdest aviation mysteries that I can remember in my lifetime.

Engine failure, lightning, terrorism? I doubt we will ever know. My thoughts are with the families who lost their loved ones.

The plane simply disappeared from radar yesterday.

Timeline of events surrounding the disappearance of Air France Flight 447 from Rio de Janeiro to Paris, according to Air France, Brazilian Air Force.

All times in Brazilian local time:

-- 7:03 p.m. Sunday: Air France says plane left Rio de Janeiro. Brazilian Air Force says plane left at 7:30 p.m.

-- 10:30 p.m. Sunday: Air France says plane has last contact with Brazil air traffic control. Brazilian Air Force says last radio contact at 10:33 p.m., 351 miles (565 kilometers) from northeastern Brazilian city of Natal.

-- 10:48 p.m.: Brazilian Air Force says last radar contact with Brazil indicated plane flying normally.

-- 11 p.m. Sunday: Air France says plane entered zone of storms and high turbulence.

-- 11:14 p.m. Sunday: Air France receives automatic message indicating electrical circuit malfunction.

-- 11:20 p.m. Sunday: Brazilian Air Force says plane fails to make previously scheduled radio contact with Brazil. Brazil notifies air traffic control in Dakar, Senegal.

-- 2-3 a.m Monday: Air France says French military radar begins searching for plane.

-- 2:30 a.m. Monday: Brazilian Air Force says it mounts search and rescue mission with two planes.

-- 4:30 am Monday: Air France says it sets up crisis center.

-- 6:15 a.m. Monday: Plane's scheduled arrival in Paris, according to Air France.

-- 8:30 a.m. Monday: Brazilian Air Force says it was told by Air France about the message the plane sent to the company. The message indicated technical problems, including a loss of pressure and an electrical system failure, Brazilian Air Force says.

http://www.boston.com/news/world/europe/articles/2009/06/01/timeline_of_disappearance_of_air_france_jet/

[war ensemble]

Looks like the Martians are finally planning their invasion. My thoughts go out to the victims and their families.

[Borgoguy]

The area they were flying over in the Atlantic--between Brazil and Africa--has the most violent zone of thunderstorms on earth. Normally, planes can fly over or around storms. But in this area, thunderstorms can form a wall over 50,000 feet high. This type of aviation accident is what I fear the most: To be sitting there and suddenly there is a catastrophic failure. RIP to all the people involved in this disaster.

[Gainzo]

The area they were flying over in the Atlantic--between Brazil and Africa--has the most violent zone of thunderstorms on earth. Normally, planes can fly over or around storms. But in this area, thunderstorms can form a wall over 50,000 feet high. This type of aviation accident is what I fear the most: To be sitting there and suddenly there is a catastrophic failure. RIP to all the people involved in this disaster.

I've probably flown 20 times between LA and Sydney or Auckland and was never worried as the the plane gets way up there in altitude. The long distance flights don't concern me at all.

Lately some of the 1-3 hour domestic flights I take have been an adventure because of the weather or the shear amount of other planes in the sky.

I still feel safer on a commercial flight than I do driving.

[Borgoguy]

I've probably flown 20 times between LA and Sydney or Auckland and was never worried as the the plane gets way up there in altitude. The long distance flights don't concern me at all.

Lately some of the 1-3 hour domestic flights I take have been an adventure because of the weather or the shear amount of other planes in the sky.

I still feel safer on a commercial flight than I do driving.

This is probably not the forum, but I believe the airline industry--and complicit world governments--has, knowingly, sacrificed safety for profit. Over crowded jetways, over-stressed equipment (planes), too many planes in the sky, under-trained pilots, too few air traffic controllers, are just a few of issues that get swept under the carpet until there is an accident. Look at the pilots in the icing accident in Buffalo: They had neither the training or experience to fly in those conditions. Yet, there they were at the controls making decisions that cost folks their lives. We don't know what happened yesterday, but what if they allowed that plane to take off knowing they would meet up with massive thunderstorms?

[Thai Jet]

It doesn't look good that there would be any survivors. May they all RIP .

[Gainzo]

This is probably not the forum, but I believe the airline industry--and complicit world governments--has, knowingly, sacrificed safety for profit. Over crowded jetways, over-stressed equipment (planes), too many planes in the sky, under-trained pilots, too few air traffic controllers, are just a few of issues that get swept under the carpet until there is an accident. Look at the pilots in the icing accident in Buffalo: They had neither the training or experience to fly in those conditions. Yet, there they were at the controls making decisions that cost folks their lives. We don't know what happened yesterday, but what if they allowed that plane to take off knowing they would meet up with massive thunderstorms?

In my experience the foreign airlines take pride in their International flights. Air France is excellent as is Lufthansa, Singapore Airlines, Qantas, Air New Zealand, etc

I do agree with your comment on domestic flights. There are so many airlines and just as many regional flights where you are taking a puddle jumper from say Detroit to Indy or Boston to Portland, Maine.

[Thai Jet]

This one of the weirdest aviation mysteries that I can remember in my lifetime.

Engine failure, lightning, terrorism? I doubt we will ever know. My thoughts are with the families who lost their loved ones.

The plane simply disappeared from radar yesterday.

http://www.boston.com/news/world/europe/articles/2009/06/01/timeline_of_disappearance_of_air_france_jet/

The last speculation I heard was that the plane might have been struck by lightning.

[Borgoguy]

It doesn't look good that there would be any survivors. May they all RIP .

Middle of the Atlantic coming down from 35,000 feet? It would take a dozen miracles. Man, I feel so bad for those people.

[Thai Jet]

In my experience the foreign airlines take pride in their International flights. Air France is excellent as is Lufthansa, Singapore Airlines, Qantas, Air New Zealand, etc

I do agree with your comment on domestic flights. There are so many airlines and just as many regional flights where you are taking a puddle jumper from say Detroit to Indy or Boston to Portland, Maine.

I would agree. Both my daughters have traveled extensively overseas ( even Australia ) without any hitches.

[Borgoguy]

The last speculation I heard was that the plane might have been struck by lightning.

That won't bring a jetliner down. They are engineered to withstand a lightening strike.

[Thai Jet]

Middle of the Atlantic coming down from 35,000 feet? It would take a dozen miracles. Man, I feel so bad for those people.

I can't even imagine the terror being on a plane decending like that.

[Gainzo]

The last speculation I heard was that the plane might have been struck by lightning.

I read that as well but also read that aircraft nowadays can pretty much handle a lightning strike.

I also read that the AirBus had GE engines that are the most reliable in the world.

[war ensemble]

This is probably not the forum, but I believe the airline industry--and complicit world governments--has, knowingly, sacrificed safety for profit. Over crowded jetways, over-stressed equipment (planes), too many planes in the sky, under-trained pilots, too few air traffic controllers, are just a few of issues that get swept under the carpet until there is an accident. Look at the pilots in the icing accident in Buffalo: They had neither the training or experience to fly in those conditions. Yet, there they were at the controls making decisions that cost folks their lives. We don't know what happened yesterday, but what if they allowed that plane to take off knowing they would meet up with massive thunderstorms?

The problem with all this is increasing safety would increase profits. Then you would have people complaining that they added new safety measures simply as an excuse to increase prices. Nobody will notice the decrease in flight problems as you only recognize something when something bad happens.

You can't win...

[Thai Jet]

I read that as well but also read that aircraft nowadays can pretty much handle a lightning strike.

I also read that the AirBus had GE engines that are the most reliable in the world.

True on all points. It might be like you said in the beginning , we may very well never know.

[JohnnyHector]

The problem with all this is increasing safety would increase profits.

Yes, because an "increase" in profits would be detrimental for the airline industry.

Don't they teach basic economics at your propeller-head school?

[Borgoguy]

The problem with all this is increasing safety would increase profits. Then you would have people complaining that they added new safety measures simply as an excuse to increase prices. Nobody will notice the decrease in flight problems as you only recognize something when something bad happens.

You can't win...

There are so many layers to airline safety, and inherent paradoxes, it isn't funny. It's one of my pet peeves. Why, for example, haven't governments made a non-flammable jet fuel a requirement to allowing an airline to use its air space or service that country? Most people in a crash don't die from impact, but from smoke inhalation or fire. Plus, most of the cabin materials--seats, etc--release deadly vapors when they burn, which kill you almost immediately. Yet, these materials continue to be used in all planes. What, we can't engineer this stuff safely? Or won't?

[ZachEY]

There are so many layers to airline safety, and inherent paradoxes, it isn't funny.

That's why I have a trained segul.

[DoubleDown]

Yes, because an "increase" in profits would be detrimental for the airline industry.

Don't they teach basic economics at your propeller-head school?

I think he meant increased costs, not increased profits.

This is a terrible tragedy and I wish all the passengers and their families the best.

[JohnnyHector]

There are so many layers to airline safety, and inherent paradoxes, it isn't funny. It's one of my pet peeves. Why, for example, haven't governments made a non-flammable jet fuel a requirement to allowing an airline to use its air space or service that country? Most people in a crash don't die from impact, but from smoke inhalation or fire. Plus, most of the cabin materials--seats, etc--release deadly vapors when they burn, which kill you almost immediately. Yet, these materials continue to be used in all planes. What, we can't engineer this stuff? Or won't?

Non-flammable jet fuel in an internal-combustion engine? What will they think of next?!

[JohnnyHector]

I think he meant increased costs, not increased profits.

This is a terrible tragedy and I wish all the passengers and their families the best.

Oh, I know exactly what he meant. That doesn't mean I can't poke fun at the boy genius when he misspeaks (er... mistypes).

[DoubleDown]

Oh, I know exactly what he meant. That doesn't mean I can't poke fun at the boy genius when he misspeaks (er... mistypes).

Noted.

[Borgoguy]

Non-flammable jet fuel in an internal-combustion engine? What will they think of next?!

They have, supposedly, been working on this type of fuel for decades. One that allows combustion for the engines, but does not explode or ignite on impact, or if it's spilled. Think of the thousands of lives that could have been spared in all the aviation accidents if this technology had been made a priority instead of TVs in every seat.

[Otter]

This one of the weirdest aviation mysteries that I can remember in my lifetime.

Engine failure, lightning, terrorism? I doubt we will ever know. My thoughts are with the families who lost their loved ones.

The plane simply disappeared from radar yesterday.

http://www.boston.com/news/world/europe/articles/2009/06/01/timeline_of_disappearance_of_air_france_jet/

I was just listening to an aviation expert who mentioned that planes lose contact with radar once they start crossing the ocean. That is what is going to make this search so difficult. They have no idea where the plane went down.

[Gainzo]

I was just listening to an aviation expert who mentioned that planes lose contact with radar once they start crossing the ocean. That is what is going to make this search so difficult. They have no idea where the plane went down.

That can't be possible in 2009 can it?

[Thai Jet]

That can't be possible in 2009 can it?

It doesn't seem right Gainzo.

[Otter]

That can't be possible in 2009 can it?

I was shocked when I heard it. You would think that air traffic controllers and airlines would track planes with GPS.

[Borgoguy]

That can't be possible in 2009 can it?

Just another example of how antiquated the system is. Planes still fly on specific "highways" using ground based position vectors, or beacons. They still do not use the more fuel efficient, faster, and safer global positioning system. It costs money to change systems, which governments are unwilling to spend. Again, they are gambling with your safety.

[Borgoguy]

It doesn't seem right Gainzo.

It is.

[Thai Jet]

The early reports I heard this morning said they were tracking it on radar when suddenly it was just gone off the screen.

[Otter]

I just copy and pasted from the BBC News website.

Tom Symonds, BBC News transport correspondent

The Airbus A330 airliner is likely to have begun its journey tracking the coast of Brazil northwards before striking out across the Atlantic. A few hundred miles from the shore, radar coverage peters out - from there on, crews use high frequency radio to report their position.

The Brazilian Air Force says the plane left radar screens near the islands of Fernando de Noronha, 230 miles from the coast. The firmest clue to its fate comes from the data message sent via a satellite network at 0214 GMT reporting electrical and pressurisation problems. This suggests whatever happened, happened before the crew could put out a mayday radio call. It was likely a sudden and catastrophic emergency. Even a double engine failure at cruising altitude would normally give the crew around half an hour's gliding time.

Air France says the plane may have been struck by lightning - the cause of around a dozen major air crashes in the last 50 years - but it rarely results in tragedy. More likely lightning damaged electrical systems, possibly leading indirectly to the plane's ditching.

Although passengers survived a landing on the Hudson River in New York in January - it is rarely successful, especially in the middle of an ocean the size of the Atlantic.

[Gainzo]

I just copy and pasted from the BBC News website.

Tom Symonds, BBC News transport correspondent

The Airbus A330 airliner is likely to have begun its journey tracking the coast of Brazil northwards before striking out across the Atlantic. A few hundred miles from the shore, radar coverage peters out - from there on, crews use high frequency radio to report their position.

The Brazilian Air Force says the plane left radar screens near the islands of Fernando de Noronha, 230 miles from the coast. The firmest clue to its fate comes from the data message sent via a satellite network at 0214 GMT reporting electrical and pressurisation problems. This suggests whatever happened, happened before the crew could put out a mayday radio call. It was likely a sudden and catastrophic emergency. Even a double engine failure at cruising altitude would normally give the crew around half an hour's gliding time.

Air France says the plane may have been struck by lightning - the cause of around a dozen major air crashes in the last 50 years - but it rarely results in tragedy. More likely lightning damaged electrical systems, possibly leading indirectly to the plane's ditching.

Although passengers survived a landing on the Hudson River in New York in January - it is rarely successful, especially in the middle of an ocean the size of the Atlantic.

You would think with the advent of GPS and the hundreds, it not thousands, of satellites they could keep track of commercial flights over the Ocean.

[slowmoe57]

You would think with the advent of GPS and the hundreds, it not thousands, of satellites they could keep track of commercial flights over the Ocean.

Depends on the type of aircraft -- some of those airbuses are up there in age -- but from what I am hearing this ac had all the new technology to communicate (SATCOMM GPS ECT.).

I hate when this stuff hapopens. There could be a dozen different things that could have happened and we may never know.

[Gainzo]

Depends on the type of aircraft -- some of those airbuses are up there in age -- but from what I am hearing this ac had all the new technology to communicate (SATCOMM GPS ECT.).

I hate when this stuff hapopens. There could be a dozen different things that could have happened and we may never know.

This is going to sound bad but I have no faith in the Brazilians keeping track of a flight let alone the Countries on the western coast of Africa.

If this flight left JFK bound for charles de gaulle I'm sure there would have been communication the entire way.

Same thing for a flight leaving LAX on the way to Sydney.

[Thai Jet]

This is going to sound bad but I have no faith in the Brazilians keeping track of a flight let alone the Countries on the western coast of Africa.

.

Sadly I think that speaks for itself.