CTM Posted July 10, 2009 Share Posted July 10, 2009 Plenty of 12 win seasons and 1st rd exits. Manning has certainly help make players better but he has played w/ superior talent since he came into the leage: Faulk Edge Harrison Wayne Clark Dilger Pollard Addai He has had great OLs. He has had more than any QB besides maybe Kurt Warner but at least Warner has made 3 SBs w/ all the talent around him. Well, not suprisingly, you missed the point. Outside of Faulk none of thise guys have done anything without Manning. Why come Manning didn't make the career of Edge, Harrison, Clark, etc.. You don't think Coles's numbers would've been comparable to Harrison had he been with Manning instead of the POS QB's he played with here? None of those guys above are naturally talented freaks like Fitz, AJ, or Moss.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nyjunc Posted July 10, 2009 Share Posted July 10, 2009 Well, not suprisingly, you missed the point. Outside of Faulk none of thise guys have done anything without Manning. Why come Manning didn't make the career of Edge, Harrison, Clark, etc.. You don't think Coles's numbers would've been comparable to Harrison had he been with Manning instead of the POS QB's he played with here? None of those guys above are naturally talented freaks like Fitz, AJ, or Moss.. They all played their primes w/ Manning. Is it fair to expect Harrison to go on and have success w/ another team now? marvin did have 73 recs in 1997 w/o Peyton then that went down to 59 w/ Peyton in 1998. Dilger had 42 recs and 4 TDs in '95 and '96, his career high w/ Manning was 47 and 3 TDs. Marcus Pollard's carere high in recs w/ Manning was 47, w/ Det in '05 he had 46. Edge had 2 1,000 yd seasons including a 1200 yd season though his YPC wwent down Jerome Pathon's career high w/ Manning was 50 recs, 646 yds and 3 TDs. In NO he caught 44 for 578 and 4 TDs in 2003. Rhodes averaged 3.4 YPC in Indy in '06, averaged 4.0 YPC in Oak the next year then 3.5 last year back w/ Indy. Qadry ismail had 74 recs w/ Bal in 2001 then signed w/ Indy and caught 44 w/ manning seeing his avg drop almost 4 yds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CTM Posted July 10, 2009 Share Posted July 10, 2009 They all played their primes w/ Manning. Is it fair to expect Harrison to go on and have success w/ another team now? marvin did have 73 recs in 1997 w/o Peyton then that went down to 59 w/ Peyton in 1998. Dilger had 42 recs and 4 TDs in '95 and '96, his career high w/ Manning was 47 and 3 TDs. Marcus Pollard's carere high in recs w/ Manning was 47, w/ Det in '05 he had 46. Edge had 2 1,000 yd seasons including a 1200 yd season though his YPC wwent down Jerome Pathon's career high w/ Manning was 50 recs, 646 yds and 3 TDs. In NO he caught 44 for 578 and 4 TDs in 2003. Rhodes averaged 3.4 YPC in Indy in '06, averaged 4.0 YPC in Oak the next year then 3.5 last year back w/ Indy. Qadry ismail had 74 recs w/ Bal in 2001 then signed w/ Indy and caught 44 w/ manning seeing his avg drop almost 4 yds. Ok, so the best pure passer of this generation, the guy who calls all his own plays at the line, is less responsible for his own success then the guys around him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bleed4TheGreen Posted July 10, 2009 Share Posted July 10, 2009 Ok, so the best pure passer of this generation, the guy who calls all his own plays at the line, is less responsible for his own success then the guys around him. I've never heard this type of talk about Manning in all my years of watching football...This man will rank right up there with Favre, Marino, Elway, Brady, Montana...I can go on and on...When it's all said and done, Manning will be considered a top 10 QB because he's one of the best field generals to ever play the game-A natural leader. This type of Manning debate is crazy and it all started from Chad Pennington talk, wow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt39 Posted July 10, 2009 Share Posted July 10, 2009 Im glad to see Ken Dilger getting some pub. He used to kill the Jets Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nyjunc Posted July 10, 2009 Share Posted July 10, 2009 Ok, so the best pure passer of this generation, the guy who calls all his own plays at the line, is less responsible for his own success then the guys around him. Nah, why should talent around a QB matter? Peyton does it all himself. I love the Peyton apologists that blame everyone but Peyton for the Colts playoff failures when Peyton has been the biggest problem in playoff losses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aqua4ever04 Posted July 10, 2009 Share Posted July 10, 2009 Ok, so the best pure passer of this generation, the guy who calls all his own plays at the line, is less responsible for his own success then the guys around him. It's the old addage. The quarterback gets too much credit when the team succeeds and too much blame when the team fails. See Ben Roethlisberger, and then see Peyton Manning. Manning is clearly superior, but Ben gets more accolades because he's been on better teams. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nyjunc Posted July 10, 2009 Share Posted July 10, 2009 It's the old addage. The quarterback gets too much credit when the team succeeds and too much blame when the team fails. See Ben Roethlisberger, and then see Peyton Manning. Manning is clearly superior, but Ben gets more accolades because he's been on better teams. Ben clearly steps up when it matters and Peyton clearly shrinks. How many SBs was Pitt winning before Ben? They had great Ds for years from the mid 90s through the early 00s, why couldn't they win? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CTM Posted July 10, 2009 Share Posted July 10, 2009 Nah, why should talent around a QB matter? Peyton does it all himself. I love the Peyton apologists that blame everyone but Peyton for the Colts playoff failures when Peyton has been the biggest problem in playoff losses. I already said Manning is a choker in the playoffs. My point is that Manning made Harrison and the gang, not the other way around. They're better because of him. They're the replaceable parts. Capice? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CTM Posted July 10, 2009 Share Posted July 10, 2009 I've never heard this type of talk about Manning in all my years of watching football...This man will rank right up there with Favre, Marino, Elway, Brady, Montana...I can go on and on...When it's all said and done, Manning will be considered a top 10 QB because he's one of the best field generals to ever play the game-A natural leader. This type of Manning debate is crazy and it all started from Chad Pennington talk, wow If I had a dollar for everytime some looney tunes inferred that switching Chad for Manning on those Colts teams would've yielded similiar results I'd have a couple hundred bucks.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyHector Posted July 10, 2009 Share Posted July 10, 2009 Ben clearly steps up when it matters and Peyton clearly shrinks. How many SBs was Pitt winning before Ben? They had great Ds for years from the mid 90s through the early 00s, why couldn't they win? If you want to talk about stepping up when it matters, Pittsburgh beat Seattle in spite of Ben, not because of him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PFSIKH Posted July 10, 2009 Share Posted July 10, 2009 Ben clearly steps up when it matters and Peyton clearly shrinks. How many SBs was Pitt winning before Ben? They had great Ds for years from the mid 90s through the early 00s, why couldn't they win? Exactly. Can someone give me a defining moment of Peyton in the playoffs? Like Montana to Clark. Big Ben this past Superbowl with the pass to Holmes. Brady and his last minute drive against the Rams. I've never heard this type of talk about Manning in all my years of watching football...This man will rank right up there with Favre, Marino, Elway, Brady, Montana...I can go on and on...When it's all said and done, Manning will be considered a top 10 QB because he's one of the best field generals to ever play the game-A natural leader. This type of Manning debate is crazy and it all started from Chad Pennington talk, wow Peyton is one of the top QBs in the history of the league. However, when you are compiling a list of clutch QBs, he is going to be passed by lesser QBs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klecko73isGod Posted July 10, 2009 Share Posted July 10, 2009 Exactly. Can someone give me a defining moment of Peyton in the playoffs? Getting handed the SB trophy usually works. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyHector Posted July 10, 2009 Share Posted July 10, 2009 Exactly. Can someone give me a defining moment of Peyton in the playoffs? Like Montana to Clark. Big Ben this past Superbowl with the pass to Holmes. Brady and his last minute drive against the Rams. How about the biggest comeback in Championship Game history (down 21-3)? How about getting the ball with 2:17 left and one timeout, down by 3 points, and leading your team on a 7-play, 80-yard drive to score the winning TD? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PS17 Posted July 10, 2009 Share Posted July 10, 2009 Did this debate start from Brady v. Manning? I think that is no contest that Brady is better, and that he is by far the best QB of this generation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nyjunc Posted July 10, 2009 Share Posted July 10, 2009 I already said Manning is a choker in the playoffs. My point is that Manning made Harrison and the gang, not the other way around. They're better because of him. They're the replaceable parts. Capice? If he made them then why did most of them have success w/o him? If you want to talk about stepping up when it matters, Pittsburgh beat Seattle in spite of Ben, not because of him. They wouldn't have been anywhere near the SB w/o him. He was great in the AFC playoffs. How about the biggest comeback in Championship Game history (down 21-3)? How about getting the ball with 2:17 left and one timeout, down by 3 points, and leading your team on a 7-play, 80-yard drive to score the winning TD? Why were they down 21-3? peyton's INT for a TD didn't play a role, did it? He had one great half of football that entire postseason and he stole the MVP trophy which he clearly didn't deserve. Did this debate start from Brady v. Manning? I think that is no contest that Brady is better, and that he is by far the best QB of this generation. You are a very wise man. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JiF Posted July 10, 2009 Author Share Posted July 10, 2009 Have you guys heard of this rookie Matt Sanchez? You think he will be top 5 one day? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyHector Posted July 10, 2009 Share Posted July 10, 2009 Why were they down 21-3? peyton's INT for a TD didn't play a role, did it? He had one great half of football that entire postseason and he stole the MVP trophy which he clearly didn't deserve. PFSIKH asked for a defining moment for Manning in the playoffs. I provided one. It doesn't matter how the Colts wound up down by 18 points, only that he brought them back and won the game with an 80-yard drive with just over 2 minutes to play. I'm not saying he hasn't come up small in big games in the past, nor do I think he deserved the SB MVP, but to downplay what he did in the AFC Championship Game that year is weak. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyHector Posted July 10, 2009 Share Posted July 10, 2009 If he made them then why did most of them have success w/o him? You're not really basing this claim on a couple of seasons from Ken Dilger and Marcus Pollard, in which their statistics paralleled their numbers when they were Colts, are you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt39 Posted July 10, 2009 Share Posted July 10, 2009 Brady > Manning is pretty obvious... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyHector Posted July 10, 2009 Share Posted July 10, 2009 Brady > Manning is pretty obvious... I don't recall that ever seriously being debated in this thread... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nyjunc Posted July 10, 2009 Share Posted July 10, 2009 PFSIKH asked for a defining moment for Manning in the playoffs. I provided one. It doesn't matter how the Colts wound up down by 18 points, only that he brought them back and won the game with an 80-yard drive with just over 2 minutes to play. I'm not saying he hasn't come up small in big games in the past, nor do I think he deserved the SB MVP, but to downplay what he did in the AFC Championship Game that year is weak. That was the game Peyton played like he should always play in January but unfortuntaely for him that's the only example. he was great in that 2nd half and that is how a great QB should play but the next postseason he went right back to the old Manning. You're not really basing this claim on a couple of seasons from Ken Dilger and Marcus Pollard, in which their statistics paralleled their numbers when they were Colts, are you? No but Harrison had a good year before Manning got there and other players didn't have much better #s playing w/ Manning. Obviously he's going to have a positive effect on teammates in the reg season but to say he hasn't played w/ amazing talent isn't fair. Brady has only had talente on O that approaches that level for 1 year and he shattered records and led his team to another SB. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nyjunc Posted July 10, 2009 Share Posted July 10, 2009 I don't recall that ever seriously being debated in this thread... It has been before this thread got sidetracked by th Chad discussion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyHector Posted July 10, 2009 Share Posted July 10, 2009 It has been before this thread got sidetracked by th Chad discussion. The Chad discussion was so mind-numbing that I must have forgotten... sorry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyHector Posted July 10, 2009 Share Posted July 10, 2009 That was the game Peyton played like he should always play in January but unfortuntaely for him that's the only example. he was great in that 2nd half and that is how a great QB should play but the next postseason he went right back to the old Manning. Again, PFSIKH asked for Manning's "defining moment in the playoffs" and I provided one. That's all. No but Harrison had a good year before Manning got there and other players didn't have much better #s playing w/ Manning. Obviously he's going to have a positive effect on teammates in the reg season but to say he hasn't played w/ amazing talent isn't fair. Brady has only had talente on O that approaches that level for 1 year and he shattered records and led his team to another SB. That's because Manning has to create, whereas Brady is just a system QB. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CTM Posted July 10, 2009 Share Posted July 10, 2009 No but Harrison had a good year before Manning got there and other players didn't have much better #s playing w/ Manning. Obviously he's going to have a positive effect on teammates in the reg season but to say he hasn't played w/ amazing talent isn't fair. Brady has only had talente on O that approaches that level for 1 year and he shattered records and led his team to another SB. 73 receptions, 6 td's for 860 yards???... it wasn't even top 10? 2 years later with Manning he had 115 catches, 12 TD's and 1663 yards. IN fact in 1997 he wasn't top 10 in any relevant category and in Mannings second year he was #1 or 2 in all of them. WR's with 73 catches a year don't go to the HOF, Harrison will and it's because of Manning. You are making my point for me. And ftr.. Moss is 100x the offensive player then Manning has ever had to work with . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nyjunc Posted July 10, 2009 Share Posted July 10, 2009 73 receptions, 6 td's for 860 yards???... it wasn't even top 10? 2 years later with Manning he had 115 catches, 12 TD's and 1663 yards. IN fact in 1997 he wasn't top 10 in any relevant category and in Mannings second year he was #1 or 2 in all of them. WR's with 73 catches a year don't go to the HOF, Harrison will and it's because of Manning. You are making my point for me. And ftr.. Moss is 100x the offensive player then Manning has ever had to work with . He was a 2nd year WR and he put up better #s in year 2 w/o Manning than he did in year 3 w/ Manning. Moss is better than anyone Manning has worked w/ but after that Harrison, Clark, Edge, Faulk, Wayne, Addai are better than anyone besides Moss that Brady has had to work w/. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StillerPaul Posted July 10, 2009 Share Posted July 10, 2009 The Chad discussion was so mind-numbing that I must have forgotten... sorry. Can't speak for other opposing fans but for me it's damn fun watching you Jets fans on the subject of Chad P. It can also be very hard trying to keep up too! lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PFSIKH Posted July 11, 2009 Share Posted July 11, 2009 Getting handed the SB trophy usually works. Ok, so Dilfer, and all the other one hit wonders are on par with Peyton? PFSIKH asked for a defining moment for Manning in the playoffs. I provided one. It doesn't matter how the Colts wound up down by 18 points, only that he brought them back and won the game with an 80-yard drive with just over 2 minutes to play. I'm not saying he hasn't come up small in big games in the past, nor do I think he deserved the SB MVP, but to downplay what he did in the AFC Championship Game that year is weak. Honestly, do you think it was Peyton's play or the under Patriots' D? The Patriots D was horrid that day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZachEY Posted July 20, 2009 Share Posted July 20, 2009 ESPN wants you to rank the top 20 QBs. Guess who's not even on the list? http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/rank?versionId=1&listId=322 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klecko73isGod Posted July 20, 2009 Share Posted July 20, 2009 ESPN wants you to rank the top 20 QBs. Guess who's not even on the list? http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/rank?versionId=1&listId=322 Scatman Crothers!? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PS17 Posted July 20, 2009 Share Posted July 20, 2009 ESPN wants you to rank the top 20 QBs. Guess who's not even on the list? http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/rank?versionId=1&listId=322 The Great Intangible himself!!! Where's Aqua when you need him? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
124 Posted July 20, 2009 Share Posted July 20, 2009 (edited) 1. Tom Brady 2. Peyton Manning 3. Drew Brees 4. Donovan McNabb 5. Philip Rivers Just missed: Matt Ryan, Carson Palmer, Kurt Warner, Jay Cutler, Brett Favre Edited July 20, 2009 by 124 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AGAW Posted July 20, 2009 Share Posted July 20, 2009 1) Manning 2) Brady 3) Brees 4) Rivers 5) Warner McNabb, Rodgers, Cutler, Ryan and Roethlisberger would round out the top 10 though... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.