PatriotReign37 Posted July 19, 2009 Share Posted July 19, 2009 Its what Patsfans have been saying all off season. Route to Super Bowl doesn't require star receiver | Rick Gosselin Columns | Sports News | News for Dallas, Texas | Dallas Morning News Welker would be a greater loss than Moss because short passing routes have a higher percentage of being completed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxman Posted July 19, 2009 Share Posted July 19, 2009 Does the article also say you don't need experienced head coaches and quarterbacks? If so the Jets are looking good! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CTM Posted July 19, 2009 Share Posted July 19, 2009 Its what Patsfans have been saying all off season. Route to Super Bowl doesn't require star receiver | Rick Gosselin Columns | Sports News | News for Dallas, Texas | Dallas Morning News Welker would be a greater loss than Moss because short passing routes have a higher percentage of being completed. I'd love to see how effective Welker is as a #1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bleed4TheGreen Posted July 19, 2009 Share Posted July 19, 2009 Did the Patriots have an elite WR during the 90's when they went 68-92? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatriotReign37 Posted July 19, 2009 Author Share Posted July 19, 2009 I'd love to see how effective Welker is as a #1 How dd Deon Branch and Troy Brown do as # 1? Neither will be in the HOF. Case closed. Moss is a luxury. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatriotReign37 Posted July 19, 2009 Author Share Posted July 19, 2009 Did the Patriots have an elite WR during the 90's when they went 68-92? The game has changed for a number of reasons. The spread offense is in vogue and you need are decent guys with exceptional hands that dont drop balls. The salary cap determines how you build a roster. The QB should be the highest paid, but I notice that Alan Faneca is the highest paid for the NYJ thus far. Not to get off track, but 7 Mil in salary, not including signing bonus, is way too much IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerichoholic Posted July 19, 2009 Share Posted July 19, 2009 The game has changed for a number of reasons. The spread offense is in vogue and you need are decent guys with exceptional hands that dont drop balls. The salary cap determines how you build a roster. The QB should be the highest paid, but I notice that Alan Faneca is the highest paid for the NYJ thus far. Not to get off track, but 7 Mil in salary, not including signing bonus, is way too much IMO. You also need enough receivers with the necessary skills to be able to run the necessary routes and still disguise or execute perfectly what you are doing... that is what we don't know if the jets have ... plain and sinple Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bleed4TheGreen Posted July 19, 2009 Share Posted July 19, 2009 The game has changed for a number of reasons. The spread offense is in vogue and you need are decent guys with exceptional hands that dont drop balls. The salary cap determines how you build a roster. The QB should be the highest paid, but I notice that Alan Faneca is the highest paid for the NYJ thus far. Not to get off track, but 7 Mil in salary, not including signing bonus, is way too much IMO. Why wouldn't Alan Faneca be the highest paid player on the team? (Even though he's not, lol) He's one of the greatest LG's to ever play the game, he's only 32 years of age and he's still one of the best run blocking LG's in the game today. You don't pay players by their "position", you pay them on how well they help the team and in 2007..Without Alan Faneca, Thomas Jones only rushed for 1 TD and the Jets backfield as a whole ranked like 30th in average yards per carry, we only won 4 games. Then, we added Richardson, Woody and Faneca last offseason and Thomas Jones rushed for the most yards of any AFC Back and the Jets ranked 5th in average yards per rushing attempt, we won 9 games. Defense wins championships, Games are won in the trenches and Offense sells tickets. Remember that. Alan Faneca was ALWAYS the best O-Lineman on the Steelers and he's one hell of a veteran leader on this Jets O-Line, playing in the middle of two elite talents in Ferguson and Mangold-He makes them both "that much stronger" at the point of attack. If thats the case, I guess Tarvaris Jackson should be paid more $$ than Bryant McKinnie, Mike Burk and Steve Hutchinson of the Vikings? Give me a break. Or... I guess Kyle Boller should have been paid more than Jonathan Ogden for all of those years? Yeah, right. Is there a reason why Matt Light is the 5th highest paid player on the Patriots? After all...He's only an "O-Lineman". Why is Jarvis Green (A backup) the 8th highest paid player on the roster? What about Ty Warren? Why is he the 6th highest paid player on the roster? He's nothing more than a 3-4 DE. Stop trying to knock the Jets franchise with each and every post you make...It's obvious that you've forgotten where you came from (As a "Fan") because the Patriots were the joke of the 70's and the laughing stock of the 90's. So what? Not your knocking the Jets for how they pay their players...ALL because the Patriots got lucky with an ELITE HOF QB? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Defense Posted July 19, 2009 Share Posted July 19, 2009 Defense wins championships, Games are won in the trenches and Offense sells tickets. Remember that. Maybe they should help sell the tickets for the '09 season. It's fun being able to respond to my own posts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CTM Posted July 19, 2009 Share Posted July 19, 2009 How dd Deon Branch and Troy Brown do as # 1? Neither will be in the HOF. Case closed. Moss is a luxury. Moss makes Welker.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PFSIKH Posted July 19, 2009 Share Posted July 19, 2009 Did the Patriots have an elite WR during the 90's when they went 68-92? Did they have one when they went 82-17 from 2001 until 2006? No. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CTM Posted July 19, 2009 Share Posted July 19, 2009 Did they have one when they went 82-17 from 2001 until 2006? No. So.. An elite QB doesn't need elite WR's. Agreed. Unfortunately for us, the odds are astronomical that either Sanchez or Clemens is elite this season.. If Moss wasn't on last years Pats Cassell would've struggled all season Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bleed4TheGreen Posted July 19, 2009 Share Posted July 19, 2009 Did they have one when they went 82-17 from 2001 until 2006? No. Exactly. You don't need a Randy Moss type of amazing WR to win SB after SB...You just need a SOLID team around the WR position, and thats what the Jets have here in 2009. A rookie QB that has alot of talent, full of potential, future Franchise QB in Sanchez. A WR who can make the tough catch, move the chains and pick up the 1st down-Cotchery. A Top 5 O-Line led by a Franchise LT (Ferguson), Great LG (Faneca), Top 5 C (Mangold). A Top 10 Rushing attack with a work horse RB (Jones) Special talent (Leon), Power-Back (Greene). Elite Pass catching TE talent (Keller). A defense full of PROVEN talent with players such as Revis, Sheppard, Rhodes, Pace, Harris, Scott, Ellis and Jenkins with young potential talent in Leonhard, Lowery and yes...Gholston. -One of the best 3-4 Defensive minds in the game today coaching and running the show...Rex Ryan. We have a chance here in 2009...A strong chance. (IMO) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KudosForND Posted July 19, 2009 Share Posted July 19, 2009 Moss makes Welker.. Welker makes moss.. Works both ways Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CTM Posted July 19, 2009 Share Posted July 19, 2009 Welker makes moss.. Works both ways Is this serious? Shirley it can't be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnny green balls Posted July 19, 2009 Share Posted July 19, 2009 Do you "need" elite WR's? No... if you have an elite running game and defense. Problem is that it is hard to have an elite running game without at least having a credible passing attack (unless you have A-Pete). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KudosForND Posted July 19, 2009 Share Posted July 19, 2009 Is this serious? Shirley it can't be. The short throws to welker open up the long ball for moss. If you make a game plan to stop moss I will guarantee that welker ends up with a great game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bleed4TheGreen Posted July 19, 2009 Share Posted July 19, 2009 Do you "need" elite WR's? No... if you have an elite running game and defense. Problem is that it is hard to have an elite running game without at least having a credible passing attack (unless you have A-Pete). The Falcons had a top 7 rushing attack with a rookie QB-No "True" #1 WR. The Ravens had a top 7 rushing attack with a rookie QB-No "True" #1 WR. The Vikings had a top 7 rushing attack with a 2nd year starter-No "True" #1 WR The Titans had a top 7 rushing attack with Kerry "freaking" Collins-No "True" #1 WR The Panthers had a top 10 rushing attack with a solid game mananger as their QB-Only team that had an elite talent (Steve Smith) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SMC Posted July 19, 2009 Share Posted July 19, 2009 Gosselin? The guy from Jon & Kate Plus Eight is now doing sports since he's getting divorced? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#27TheDominator Posted July 20, 2009 Share Posted July 20, 2009 Did the Patriots have an elite WR during the 90's when they went 68-92? Not sure of your point, but Irving Fryar and Terry Glenn were pretty wide-outs. The Falcons had a top 7 rushing attack with a rookie QB-No "True" #1 WR. The Ravens had a top 7 rushing attack with a rookie QB-No "True" #1 WR. The Vikings had a top 7 rushing attack with a 2nd year starter-No "True" #1 WR The Titans had a top 7 rushing attack with Kerry "freaking" Collins-No "True" #1 WR The Panthers had a top 10 rushing attack with a solid game mananger as their QB-Only team that had an elite talent (Steve Smith) Cotchery is a "True" #1 and Derrick Mason and Roddy White aren't? Why don't you do one of those cool two season statistical analysis and tell me how that works out? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SenorGato Posted July 20, 2009 Share Posted July 20, 2009 Cotchery is a "True" #1 and Derrick Mason and Roddy White aren't? Why don't you do one of those cool two season statistical analysis and tell me how that works out? Cotchery wears Green and White. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bleed4TheGreen Posted July 20, 2009 Share Posted July 20, 2009 Not sure of your point, but Irving Fryar and Terry Glenn were pretty wide-outs. Cotchery is a "True" #1 and Derrick Mason and Roddy White aren't? Why don't you do one of those cool two season statistical analysis and tell me how that works out? If Mason can be considered a "True #1 WR" then so can Cotchery. Over the past 3 years, since Cotchery has been a starting WR... Mason- 251 catches, 2874 yards, 12 TD's---Retired now. Mason was also only 5'10. Cotch- 235 catches, 2949 yards, 13 TD's---In his prime now, Cotchery is 6'0. Works out pretty good right? You know why? Because I'm not just saying "BS" about Cotchery...Cotchery is an elite talent, a special type of WR who can make plays week after week and I'm just glad that I see this mans talent for what it's worth; A pretty damn good player. During Derrick Masons 1st 5 years in the league.... 76 games- 183 catches, 2631 yards, 17 TD's. During Cotcherys first 5 years in the league.... 75 games- 260 catches, 3260 yards, 13 TD's. It looks like I know what I'm talking about when talking about WR's and Jerricho Cotchery and you know why? Because I know and understand that it can take a solid 4-5 years for a WR to actually reach his full potential-Thats something Cotchery has yet to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatriotReign37 Posted July 20, 2009 Author Share Posted July 20, 2009 Why wouldn't Alan Faneca be the highest paid player on the team? (Even though he's not, lol) No???? http://nyjetscap.com/salary.html Alan Faneca was ALWAYS the best O-Lineman on the Steelers and he's one hell of a veteran leader on this Jets O-Line, playing in the middle of two elite talents in Ferguson and Mangold-He makes them both "that much stronger" at the point of attack. The Steelers told him to hit the road because his salary demands were in left field. If thats the case, I guess Tarvaris Jackson should be paid more $$ than Bryant McKinnie, Mike Burk and Steve Hutchinson of the Vikings? Give me a break. Or... I guess Kyle Boller should have been paid more than Jonathan Ogden for all of those years? Yeah, right. Theres a reason why Manning and Brady make the money they do and I'm sure you can figure out what that is. Is there a reason why Matt Light is the 5th highest paid player on the Patriots? After all...He's only an "O-Lineman". Why is Jarvis Green (A backup) the 8th highest paid player on the roster? So he wont go to NY and start for the Jets. Thats true. Belichick signed him up because Mangini had his eye on him. No, NE OL makes 7 mil in salary. What about Ty Warren? Why is he the 6th highest paid player on the roster? He's nothing more than a 3-4 DE. Hes he 10th highest paid and at 3.8 Mil this year a freakin bargain. Stop trying to knock the Jets franchise with each and every post you make...It's obvious that you've forgotten where you came from (As a "Fan") because the Patriots were the joke of the 70's and the laughing stock of the 90's. So what? Not your knocking the Jets for how they pay their players...ALL because the Patriots got lucky with an ELITE HOF QB? I dont know what youre talking about DWC. I posted 1 comment about Fanecas 7 mil salary as being bloated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZachEY Posted July 20, 2009 Share Posted July 20, 2009 Welker makes moss.. Works both ways Finkle is Einhorn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CTM Posted July 20, 2009 Share Posted July 20, 2009 The short throws to welker open up the long ball for moss. If you make a game plan to stop moss I will guarantee that welker ends up with a great game. So your assertion is that some teams worry more about Welker then Moss? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T0mShane Posted July 20, 2009 Share Posted July 20, 2009 The terms "elite" and "#1" WR are arbitrary, really. What it implies is this: does the receiver demand safety help to be covered or not? You don't have to be an "elite" wideout to keep a defense on its toes, certainly, but you do need a guy who is a legitimate vertical threat to make the safeties play off the line. And, by "vertical threat," I don't just mean a guy who runs a 4.3/40--they have to be guys who can get behind a defense AND come back the next play and run a 12-yard curl just as effectively. The problem with the Jets corps is this: they have guys who can run and they have guys who can get open, but they don't have guys that can do both. Brad Smith and David Clowney are fast, but they don't get open underneath (Smith's route-running is pathetic), while Cotchery and Stuckey are quick guys who can get open underneath, but threaten absolutely no one in the downfield passing game. The bottom line is this: opposing defenses can play nine in the box and not get burned. All of their TD's are, again, going to have to be of the 16-play, 75-yard variety because they don't scare anyone off the LOS. It's a problem, especially if they want to start Sanchez early. The more plays a drive has, the higher percentage chance you have of making a crushing mistake on one of those plays, whether it be a turnover or a penalty. It's a tough row to hoe, playing NFL football that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerichoholic Posted July 20, 2009 Share Posted July 20, 2009 The terms "elite" and "#1" WR are arbitrary, really. What it implies is this: does the receiver demand safety help to be covered or not? You don't have to be an "elite" wideout to keep a defense on its toes, certainly, but you do need a guy who is a legitimate vertical threat to make the safeties play off the line. And, by "vertical threat," I don't just mean a guy who runs a 4.3/40--they have to be guys who can get behind a defense AND come back the next play and run a 12-yard curl just as effectively. The problem with the Jets corps is this: they have guys who can run and they have guys who can get open, but they don't have guys that can do both. Brad Smith and David Clowney are fast, but they don't get open underneath (Smith's route-running is pathetic), while Cotchery and Stuckey are quick guys who can get open underneath, but threaten absolutely no one in the downfield passing game. The bottom line is this: opposing defenses can play nine in the box and not get burned. All of their TD's are, again, going to have to be of the 16-play, 75-yard variety because they don't scare anyone off the LOS. It's a problem, especially if they want to start Sanchez early. The more plays a drive has, the higher percentage chance you have of making a crushing mistake on one of those plays, whether it be a turnover or a penalty. It's a tough row to hoe, playing NFL football that way. amen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#27TheDominator Posted July 20, 2009 Share Posted July 20, 2009 The terms "elite" and "#1" WR are arbitrary, really. What it implies is this: does the receiver demand safety help to be covered or not? You don't have to be an "elite" wideout to keep a defense on its toes, certainly, but you do need a guy who is a legitimate vertical threat to make the safeties play off the line. And, by "vertical threat," I don't just mean a guy who runs a 4.3/40--they have to be guys who can get behind a defense AND come back the next play and run a 12-yard curl just as effectively. The problem with the Jets corps is this: they have guys who can run and they have guys who can get open, but they don't have guys that can do both. Brad Smith and David Clowney are fast, but they don't get open underneath (Smith's route-running is pathetic), while Cotchery and Stuckey are quick guys who can get open underneath, but threaten absolutely no one in the downfield passing game. The bottom line is this: opposing defenses can play nine in the box and not get burned. All of their TD's are, again, going to have to be of the 16-play, 75-yard variety because they don't scare anyone off the LOS. It's a problem, especially if they want to start Sanchez early. The more plays a drive has, the higher percentage chance you have of making a crushing mistake on one of those plays, whether it be a turnover or a penalty. It's a tough row to hoe, playing NFL football that way. It's nine in the box now? What happened to eight? I think they should play all eleven in the box. Our WR won't even be able to get off the line. Teams aren't going to move both safeties up because if they do even a rookie QB with questionable WR will be able to make some quick strikes. Your analysis of the WR seemed spot on. I'm expecting/hoping for a year like Domenick Hixon had in '08 from Clowney. If he can provide that, I think with Stuckey and Leon getting more touches will be okay. I was giving Smith the benefit of the doubt going into 2008, but now I'm not so sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
124 Posted July 20, 2009 Share Posted July 20, 2009 The Falcons had a top 7 rushing attack with a rookie QB-No "True" #1 WR. The Ravens had a top 7 rushing attack with a rookie QB-No "True" #1 WR. How are Derrick Mason & Roddy White not true #1 Wide Receiver's? He is (well, was now with the retirement) consistently grabbing 80-100 balls and 1,000-1,400 yards. As for White, he is young and in his last two years has put up 83 and 88 receptions and 1202 and 1382 yards along with 13 touchdowns. If you think Jerricho freakin' Cotchery is a #1 Wide Receiver, these two are worlds above him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
124 Posted July 20, 2009 Share Posted July 20, 2009 If Mason can be considered a "True #1 WR" then so can Cotchery. Over the past 3 years, since Cotchery has been a starting WR... Mason- 251 catches, 2874 yards, 12 TD's---Retired now. Mason was also only 5'10. Cotch- 235 catches, 2949 yards, 13 TD's---In his prime now, Cotchery is 6'0. Works out pretty good right? You know why? Because I'm not just saying "BS" about Cotchery...Cotchery is an elite talent, a special type of WR who can make plays week after week and I'm just glad that I see this mans talent for what it's worth; A pretty damn good player. During Derrick Masons 1st 5 years in the league.... 76 games- 183 catches, 2631 yards, 17 TD's. During Cotcherys first 5 years in the league.... 75 games- 260 catches, 3260 yards, 13 TD's. It looks like I know what I'm talking about when talking about WR's and Jerricho Cotchery and you know why? Because I know and understand that it can take a solid 4-5 years for a WR to actually reach his full potential-Thats something Cotchery has yet to do. What Derrick Mason did in his first five years has NOTHING to do with what Jerricho Cotchery has done in his first five years. NOTHING. Players are different. Some players get better, some stay the same, some get worse. Mason improved greatly. They are completely different players. You cannot compare people like that. Should we compare Erik Ainge and Tom Brady too? I mean, they were both Day 2 Draft Picks. If Ainge starts at all this season, is he the next Brady? That is how ridiculous it sounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyHector Posted July 20, 2009 Share Posted July 20, 2009 If thats the case, I guess Tarvaris Jackson should be paid more $$ than Bryant McKinnie, Mike Burk and Steve Hutchinson of the Vikings? +10000000 Mike Burk is the best center evar!!!!!!!!!1!1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZachEY Posted July 20, 2009 Share Posted July 20, 2009 Does anyone remember 2007, when Coles got hurt, and Cotchery couldn't get open in the #1 position? I do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bleed4TheGreen Posted July 20, 2009 Share Posted July 20, 2009 What Derrick Mason did in his first five years has NOTHING to do with what Jerricho Cotchery has done in his first five years. NOTHING. Players are different. Some players get better, some stay the same, some get worse. Mason improved greatly. They are completely different players. You cannot compare people like that. Should we compare Erik Ainge and Tom Brady too? I mean, they were both Day 2 Draft Picks. If Ainge starts at all this season, is he the next Brady? That is how ridiculous it sounds. Try and compare Erik Ainge against Tom Brady (As far as on the field production goes) Lets see where it takes you 124... As far as Cotchery and Mason goes...Ok, I won't compare their first 5 years of being in the league (Even though Cotchery put up the better numbers) But...But...But....We can compare the previous 3 years and lets keep in mind, Cotchery has players with 3 different QB's over the past 3 years. Mason- 251 catches, 2874 yards, 12 TD's---Retired now. Mason was also only 5'10. Cotch- 235 catches, 2949 yards, 13 TD's---In his prime now, Cotchery is 6'0. Jet fans always talk about "Height" well guess what? Cotchery is 2 inches taller Mason but thats only 'Height", how about we talk about the production? Mason has Cotchery beat by 16 catches over 3 years, but Jerricho Cotchery has put up more yards and 1 more TD, so yeah...I think it's safe to say that Cotchery is just as good of a WR, if not better, or atleast he's been JUST as productive---Actually, He's been more productive than Mason over the past 3 years. Also, lets not forget...Cotchery is only 27 years of age-He's now in his "Prime". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZachEY Posted July 20, 2009 Share Posted July 20, 2009 +10000000 Mike Burk is the best center evar!!!!!!!!!1!1 Hey, Rick Silverman is much better! *What makes it even better is that Birk isn't on the Vikings anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
124 Posted July 20, 2009 Share Posted July 20, 2009 As far as Cotchery and Mason goes...Ok, I won't compare their first 5 years of being in the league (Even though Cotchery put up the better numbers) But...But...But....We can compare the previous 3 years and lets keep in mind, Cotchery has players with 3 different QB's over the past 3 years. Mason- 251 catches, 2874 yards, 12 TD's---Retired now. Mason was also only 5'10. Cotch- 235 catches, 2949 yards, 13 TD's---In his prime now, Cotchery is 6'0. So Jerricho Cotchery has played with Chad Pennington, Brett Favre and Kellen Clemens in those 3 years. Derrick Mason has played with Joe Flacco (a rookie), Kyle Boller, Steve McNair and Troy Smith. I think Cotchery had a bit better talent, and one less passer, than Derrick Mason. They have identical stats, and Mason is in his mid 30's, when Wide Receivers are supposed to be on the decline, which Mason isn't. Jerricho Cotchery has had 1 1,000 yard season in that time, while Mason has had two. Cotchery made his numbers enhance in his 2007 campaign. Mason has been more consistent, minus his down year in 2006. Lets see Cotchery do what Mason has done in his career before putting him in the same catagory as Derrick. Over the last 10 years, Mason has been one of the best receivers in the game, always under-rated and over-looked because he's played in small markets like Tennessee and Baltimore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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