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D'Brick - One of the Worst LTs in the NFL Last Season


The Troll

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Lies, damn lies and statistics.

What is the difference between the left end and left tackle? The Jets were #3 in the league at runs to the "left end". I assume that's like a sweep or wide run. The LT would be involved in that.

These aren't the only mutts trying to quantify a position that doesn't lend itself to statistical analysis. There are tons of other factors. Maybe the back prefers to run right. I always liked running right and I was much better cutting that way and holding the ball in my right hand. Pro backs also have preferences.

Left tackle – D’Brickashaw Ferguson vs. David Diehl Run blocking:

Ferguson – 115 POA attempts, 527 yards gained, 98 POA wins. That equates to an 85.2% POA win rate and 4.6 POA YPA.

Diehl – 142 POA attempts, 768 yards, 110 POA wins. That equals an impressive 5.4 YPA but an equally unimpressive 77.5% POA win rate.

Run blocking advantage – Ferguson’s POA lead gives him the edge here.

Pass blocking:

Ferguson – Gave up three sacks and had zero offensive holding penalties against him. Defenders rushing against him tallied one tipped pass at the line and zero times hitting the quarterback while he was passing the ball. Total splash plays – four.

Diehl – Gave up one sack and had one offensive holding penalty. Gave up one tipped pass and two hits on QB while passing. Total splash plays – five.

Pass blocking advantage – To borrow the term frequently used in my friend Nick Bakay’s hugely funny Tale of the Tape reviews (the format of which I am somewhat borrowing for this article,) let’s call this a push.

The bottom line – The metrics clearly show the reason the Giants are said to be considering moving Diehl inside. Advantage Ferguson. Jets lead, 1-0.

http://fifthdown.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/06/15/who-has-the-best-o-line-giants-or-jets/
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Lies, damn lies and statistics.

What is the difference between the left end and left tackle? The Jets were #3 in the league at runs to the "left end". I assume that's like a sweep or wide run. The LT would be involved in that.

These aren't the only mutts trying to quantify a position that doesn't lend itself to statistical analysis. There are tons of other factors. Maybe the back prefers to run right. I always liked running right and I was much better cutting that way and holding the ball in my right hand. Pro backs also have preferences.

http://fifthdown.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/06/15/who-has-the-best-o-line-giants-or-jets/

Well pro-football focus is a good site for football analysis. I know the guys who run it and they know their ****, they literally do watch every player on every play. The guy who done the rankings for the Jets is a Ravens fan and he had Woody coming out BEST in the league out of all tackles with Brick coming 5th out of all tackles and 2nd among LT's.

http://www.profootballfocus.com/by_position.php?tab=by_position&season=2008&pos=T&stype=r&runpass=&teamid=-1&numgames=1

Think of their rankings what you will but if Brick was as bad as people think, he simply wouldn't be that high. He was, along with the rest of our line, outstanding last season.

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Lies, damn lies and statistics.

What is the difference between the left end and left tackle? The Jets were #3 in the league at runs to the "left end". I assume that's like a sweep or wide run. The LT would be involved in that.

These aren't the only mutts trying to quantify a position that doesn't lend itself to statistical analysis. There are tons of other factors. Maybe the back prefers to run right. I always liked running right and I was much better cutting that way and holding the ball in my right hand. Pro backs also have preferences.

http://fifthdown.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/06/15/who-has-the-best-o-line-giants-or-jets/

I think Brick is better in open space running the sweep blocking LBers and not as good in tight space blocking DE\DT. Not sure how the stat is made I'm just throwing it out there.

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I think Brick is better in open space running the sweep blocking LBers and not as good in tight space blocking DE\DT. Not sure how the stat is made I'm just throwing it out there.

Makes sense. The stat is made up. I don't think there is really a "stat" for o lineman, other than penalties, sacks allowed and ypc.

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Well pro-football focus is a good site for football analysis. I know the guys who run it and they know their ****, they literally do watch every player on every play. The guy who done the rankings for the Jets is a Ravens fan and he had Woody coming out BEST in the league out of all tackles with Brick coming 5th out of all tackles and 2nd among LT's.

http://www.profootballfocus.com/by_position.php?tab=by_position&season=2008&pos=T&stype=r&runpass=&teamid=-1&numgames=1

Think of their rankings what you will but if Brick was as bad as people think, he simply wouldn't be that high. He was, along with the rest of our line, outstanding last season.

Thanks for the link. I hadn't seen this site. I'd really like to see them include an adjustment for individual charters' tendencies like FO does, though.

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Horrible thread title, and poor interpretation of the stats.

According to that site our OL leads the league in runs to the right; both inside and outside of Woody. Our running on either side of Mangold or outside of Ferguson is third best in the league. This combines for an OL that is 2nd best in the league.

The stats go on to state that runs to the inside of Ferguson or at the left tackle gap are worst in the league.

A couple points to consider:

1. D'brickashaw Ferguson was drafted to be a dominant pass blocker, protecting the blind side of our QB.

2. Ferguson's value to this team is not rested solely in his run blocking, though his athleticism makes him a decent blocker in space.

3. Those stats indicate gap-area running success--not the personnel involved in the block.

4. Ferguson is a finesse blocker not a mauler, but he's not the worst in the league by any stretch.

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Lies, damn lies and statistics.

What is the difference between the left end and left tackle? The Jets were #3 in the league at runs to the "left end". I assume that's like a sweep or wide run. The LT would be involved in that.

These aren't the only mutts trying to quantify a position that doesn't lend itself to statistical analysis. There are tons of other factors. Maybe the back prefers to run right. I always liked running right and I was much better cutting that way and holding the ball in my right hand. Pro backs also have preferences.

http://fifthdown.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/06/15/who-has-the-best-o-line-giants-or-jets/

I agree that stats don't tell all. But I don't see how someone would be so much more of a preference running left end as opposed to left off tackle. Other than maybe the WR being somewhat more likely to assist with run blocking if it's a planned run way out laterally. It could also be just that there weren't any longer runs broken that way. A single 50-yard run changes that 2.8 into 4.4 given the number of carries in that direction (about 30).

There are a lot of other factors as well (who the ballcarriers were in those situations, how predictable a particular running play is courtesy of the OC, field position, etc.). What if 22 of the 30-31 times we ran off tackle was inside the 5 yard line and 11 of them inside the 2?

The point is that the stat doesn't necessarily mean everything it seems to on its face. But it doesn't mean the opposite of it either and it is pretty glaring how much the difference is.

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I agree that stats don't tell all. But I don't see how someone would be so much more of a preference running left end as opposed to left off tackle. Other than maybe the WR being somewhat more likely to assist with run blocking if it's a planned run way out laterally. It could also be just that there weren't any longer runs broken that way. A single 50-yard run changes that 2.8 into 4.4 given the number of carries in that direction (about 30).

There are a lot of other factors as well (who the ballcarriers were in those situations, how predictable a particular running play is courtesy of the OC, field position, etc.). What if 22 of the 30-31 times we ran off tackle was inside the 5 yard line and 11 of them inside the 2?

The point is that the stat doesn't necessarily mean everything it seems to on its face. But it doesn't mean the opposite of it either and it is pretty glaring how much the difference is.

I didn't say the opposite was true, I said that stats for o-linemen are pretty much a joke. The RB preference was not my idea of an answer for everything, it's just one of a million things that figure into such bull**** stats that have nothing to do with the LT's blocking. I think most people will agree Woody is a better run blocker, so there isn't much reason to run left. They were #1 in the NFL running wide right and right tackle. Why run left? Just to make Troll happy? Dbrick isn't a power blocker so I wouldn't expect to run dead behind him, but if he doesn't block his man on those runs up the middle (Jets ranked #3) they go nowhere.

Football Outsiders "Adjusted Line Yards" totally discounts runs of 11 yards or more. It also adjusts for NFL averages in accordance with down/distance and shotgun formation. Seems to be at the mercy of the OC too.

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I didn't say the opposite was true, I said that stats for o-linemen are pretty much a joke. The RB preference was not my idea of an answer for everything, it's just one of a million things that figure into such bull**** stats that have nothing to do with the LT's blocking. I think most people will agree Woody is a better run blocker, so there isn't much reason to run left. They were #1 in the NFL running wide right and right tackle. Why run left? Just to make Troll happy? Dbrick isn't a power blocker so I wouldn't expect to run dead behind him, but if he doesn't block his man on those runs up the middle (Jets ranked #3) they go nowhere.

Football Outsiders "Adjusted Line Yards" totally discounts runs of 11 yards or more. It also adjusts for NFL averages in accordance with down/distance and shotgun formation. Seems to be at the mercy of the OC too.

The quantity of runs is more or less shown (with a little math done):

Total RB carries = 382

Left end = 8% = ~31 carries

Left tackle = 8% = ~31 carries

Right end = 9% = ~34 carries

Right tackle = 17% = ~65 carries

The quantity of runs or gross aggregate yards gained running left tackle compared to elsewhere isn't what is in dispute, just to be fair. It's how much was gained PER run behind or (presumably) off left tackle. And in that category, the Jets were 32nd in the NFL.

I agree that there are always other factors at play. But it's still a pretty sorry number.

Now if you really want to be fair, then find out what were other teams' average running off left tackle, specifically against our opponents. I charge you with the task of finding for me this vital information.

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The quantity of runs is more or less shown (with a little math done):

Total RB carries = 382

Left end = 8% = ~31 carries

Left tackle = 8% = ~31 carries

Right end = 9% = ~34 carries

Right tackle = 17% = ~65 carries

The quantity of runs or gross aggregate yards gained running left tackle compared to elsewhere isn't what is in dispute, just to be fair. It's how much was gained PER run behind or (presumably) off left tackle. And in that category, the Jets were 32nd in the NFL.

I agree that there are always other factors at play. But it's still a pretty sorry number.

Now if you really want to be fair, then find out what were other teams' average running off left tackle, specifically against our opponents. I charge you with the task of finding for me this vital information.

I'm disputing it. That's "adjusted line yards" a number that weighs a ton of things (including down and distance) which does not correllate to gross aggregate yards gained (it completely discounts runs over 10 yards). I also think it's kind of moronic to use a NFL play by play to deteriine if a run was left end, left tackle or up the middle. Watch the ****ing game. ALL their stats are weighted. It's nice for numbers nerds and for us to argue about, but it's a joke. If they find no statistical differerence between runs up the middle and to either guard position, how can we take them seriously? You want me to believe that there is no difference between Adrien Clarke and Pete Kendall or Faneca? The O line is a unit and the only things that can generally be seperated (sacks and penalties) Dbrick rates highly.

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I'm disputing it. That's "adjusted line yards" a number that weighs a ton of things (including down and distance) which does not correllate to gross aggregate yards gained (it completely discounts runs over 10 yards). I also think it's kind of moronic to use a NFL play by play to deteriine if a run was left end, left tackle or up the middle. Watch the ****ing game. ALL their stats are weighted. It's nice for numbers nerds and for us to argue about, but it's a joke. If they find no statistical differerence between runs up the middle and to either guard position, how can we take them seriously? You want me to believe that there is no difference between Adrien Clarke and Pete Kendall or Faneca? The O line is a unit and the only things that can generally be seperated (sacks and penalties) Dbrick rates highly.

Dude, watch the tape. You haven't watched the tape.

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Yea...I'll just uh...take D'Brick and be happy. Dude's a good lineman who's only improved with age while being extremely durable.

If I ever meet D'Brick I'm going to give him a "F the Haters" t-shirt.

I'm with you and I'll give him a shirt too. The more Troll posts the more I think he's just a hater.

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I'm with you and I'll give him a shirt too. The more Troll posts the more I think he's just a hater.

I am not a hater. I am a realist.

All of our players are not elite, as some people around here claim that they are. I have no problem giving credit where it's due, but I'm not going to suck a guy's dick just because he's wearing a green and white uniform.

And you shouldn't be one to criticize the posts of others, considering you've had 15,000 posts that consist of either this: :) or this: :yawn:.

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I am not a hater. I am a realist.

All of our players are not elite, as some people around here claim that they are. I have no problem giving credit where it's due, but I'm not going to suck a guy's dick just because he's wearing a green and white uniform.

And you shouldn't be one to criticize the posts of others, .

Who here has said " ALL OUR PLAYERS ARE ELITE ? " Show me . I think you're a little out of it. First you said that TJ sucks and that " anyone could run for 1000 yards with that line " Now you're saying that DBrick is the worst LT in the league. Well ? Which is it? :roll:. BTW : Considering the way your post got the crap kicked out of it I don't think I'm alone with the criticism. :P

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Who here has said " ALL OUR PLAYERS ARE ELITE ? " Show me . I think you're a little out of it. First you said that TJ sucks and that " anyone could run for 1000 yards with that line " Now you're saying that DBrick is the worst LT in the league. Well ? Which is it? :roll:. BTW : Considering the way your post got the crap kicked out of it I don't think I'm alone with the criticism. :P

Irish Jet, for one, has been calling Brick a top five left tackle. And I've seen a ton of people praise him for his supposed 2008 breakthrough. The thing is...the 2008 breakthrough was a figment of many's imaginations. I posted info from a reputable site. And it showed that the Jets were ranked dead last in running off left tackle.

When did I say he's the absolute worst in the league? Never did. But, he's not one of the best, and last year, he was actually pretty terrible.

And Thomas Jones doesn't suck. He is, however, the definition of mediocre. But that's not what this thread is about.

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Irish Jet, for one, has been calling Brick a top five left tackle. And I've seen a ton of people praise him for his supposed 2008 breakthrough. The thing is...the 2008 breakthrough was a figment of many's imaginations. I posted info from a reputable site. And it showed that the Jets were ranked dead last in running off left tackle.

When did I say he's the absolute worst in the league? Never did. But, he's not one of the best, and last year, he was actually pretty terrible.

And Thomas Jones doesn't suck. He is, however, the definition of mediocre. But that's not what this thread is about.

Thomas Jones is NOT mediocre. He ain't the best RB in the league but he's pretty ****ing far from mediocre. TJ is a good RB.

As far as Brick is concerned, he's not the best LT in the league, but he's pretty ****ing far from the worst. In fact, he's better than pretty good.

Dude, it's ok to like the players on your team. Giving an accurate assessment of their talent doesn't make you a "homer."

On the flip side, being overly negative about every player on the team doesn't make you objective, it makes you annoying.

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Thomas Jones is NOT mediocre. He ain't the best RB in the league but he's pretty ****ing far from mediocre. TJ is a good RB.

As far as Brick is concerned, he's not the best LT in the league, but he's pretty ****ing far from the worst. In fact, he's better than pretty good.

Dude, it's ok to like the players on your team. Giving an accurate assessment of their talent doesn't make you a "homer."

On the flip side, being overly negative about every player on the team doesn't make you objective, it makes you annoying.

What exactly is it that makes Thomas Jones "a good RB"?

Tell me. Pretty please. With a cherry on top.

And do it without saying "He led the AFC in rushing last year!".

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What exactly is it that makes Thomas Jones "a good RB"?

Tell me. Pretty please. With a cherry on top.

And do it without saying "He led the AFC in rushing last year!".

That's like saying prove Michael Jordan is one of the best basketball players of all time without mentioning his MVP award and six championships.

He did lead the AFC in rushing. How many bad RBs lead their conference in rushing for a season?

The guy has played 10 years in the NFL at a position where the average career span is 2.3 seasons. He's rushed for 1000 yards for four straight years on two different teams. How many RBs have ever done that?

To suggest that he's a bad RB is moronic. Bad RBs don't do what he's done.

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What exactly is it that makes Thomas Jones "a good RB"?

Tell me. Pretty please. With a cherry on top.

And do it without saying "He led the AFC in rushing last year!".

A RB's job is to stay healthy, carry the rock, and pick up yardage. Jones does all 3. You know what set Smith and Martin apart?

Not their super speed...they didn't have that.

Not their super moves...they didn't have that either.

Not their super power...they didn't have that either.

They lasted. They were durable as all hell at a position where durability is probably the biggest factor in success.

Also, D'Brick is closer to being a top 5 tackle than not. It's not exactly like theres a whole boatload of high end LT's out there right now...and guys like Peters and Thomas are as overrated as you think D'Brick is.

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What exactly is it that makes Thomas Jones "a good RB"?

Tell me. Pretty please. With a cherry on top.

And do it without saying "He led the AFC in rushing last year!".

So you are claiming the JETS had a top rusher with a bottom LT... ??

Wow do you even read what you type?

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Irish Jet, for one, has been calling Brick a top five left tackle. And I've seen a ton of people praise him for his supposed 2008 breakthrough. The thing is...the 2008 breakthrough was a figment of many's imaginations. I posted info from a reputable site. And it showed that the Jets were ranked dead last in running off left tackle.

When did I say he's the absolute worst in the league? Never did. But, he's not one of the best, and last year, he was actually pretty terrible.

And Thomas Jones doesn't suck. He is, however, the definition of mediocre. But that's not what this thread is about.

I guess you just see stuff thru negative glasses. BTW you said , and I quote here " All our players are not elite as some people here claim they are". D'Brick is hardly ALL OUR PLAYERS.

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What exactly is it that makes Thomas Jones "a good RB"?

Tell me. Pretty please. With a cherry on top.

And do it without saying "He led the AFC in rushing last year!".

Now you're just being stubborn and dumb. Enough of your foolish negativity.

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That's like saying prove Michael Jordan is one of the best basketball players of all time without mentioning his MVP award and six championships.

He did lead the AFC in rushing. How many bad RBs lead their conference in rushing for a season?

The guy has played 10 years in the NFL at a position where the average career span is 2.3 seasons. He's rushed for 1000 yards for four straight years on two different teams. How many RBs have ever done that?

To suggest that he's a bad RB is moronic. Bad RBs don't do what he's done.

Don't confuse him with facts. :biggrin: He's just a hater with no rhyme or reason when it comes to TJ and D'Brick.

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That's like saying prove Michael Jordan is one of the best basketball players of all time without mentioning his MVP award and six championships.

He did lead the AFC in rushing. How many bad RBs lead their conference in rushing for a season?

The guy has played 10 years in the NFL at a position where the average career span is 2.3 seasons. He's rushed for 1000 yards for four straight years on two different teams. How many RBs have ever done that?

To suggest that he's a bad RB is moronic. Bad RBs don't do what he's done.

You just compared Thomas Jones to Michael ****ing Jordan. Things like this are exactly what I'm talking about when I say that a lot of members of this fanbase vastly over-rate our own players. You know what? If Thomas Jones had six rushing titles and a couple of Super Bowl rings, I believe I'd have a different opinion of him.

Let's take a look at the conference that Thomas Jones led in rushing last year, shall we?

Miami: Timeshare

Buffalo: Lynch missed time with injuries.

New England: Running back by committee.

Cincinnati: Cedric ****ing Benson was their RB.

Cleveland: Jamal Lewis, old and ****ty, running behind a putrid line for a last place team. But, hey, he got his thousand! According to TJ fans, that makes Jamal Lewis ****ing awesome.

Pittsburgh: RBBC due to injuries.

Baltimore: Full blown RBBC.

Kansas City: They sucked, therefore, they threw the ball far more than they ran it.

Oakland: RBBC.

San Diego: Tomlinson had a down year because of lingering injuries.

Denver: They went through eleventy billion RBs due to a rash of injuries.

Jacksonville: Timeshare.

Indianapolis: Addai was injured/ineffective when healthy, if he ever was truly healthy.

Houston: Slaton finished with 40 less yards than Jones on 22 fewer carries. With a worse offensive line.

Tennessee: Timeshare.

There are a few reasons that Thomas Jones led the AFC in rushing last year, a major one being that running back by committee is the current trend in the NFL. Eric Mangini being stuck in the dark ages of having a "plow horse" is the reason Jones won the conference rushing title. Not to mention the fact that Tomlinson, Parker, Addai, and Lynch were either missing games with injuries or playing hurt. The reason TJ led the AFC in rushing? Because his more talented backup only had 76 ****ing carries. Archaic coaching got him his "title", not talent. Jones was second in the conference in CARRIES. That's why he was 1st in rushing yards.

Speaking of archaic, the "1,000 yards is a great season for a RB" idea is more past its prime than Jamal Lewis. That was a feat...in 1976. They don't play 14 games in a season anymore. You know what 1,000 yards in a season means today? 62.5 yards per game. Wow. That's the stuff legends are made of. Sixty yards a game. Throw the ticker tape parade.

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You just compared Thomas Jones to Michael ****ing Jordan. Things like this are exactly what I'm talking about when I say that a lot of members of this fanbase vastly over-rate our own players. You know what? If Thomas Jones had six rushing titles and a couple of Super Bowl rings, I believe I'd have a different opinion of him.

Let's take a look at the conference that Thomas Jones led in rushing last year, shall we?

Miami: Timeshare

Buffalo: Lynch missed time with injuries.

New England: Running back by committee.

Cincinnati: Cedric ****ing Benson was their RB.

Cleveland: Jamal Lewis, old and ****ty, running behind a putrid line for a last place team. But, hey, he got his thousand! According to TJ fans, that makes Jamal Lewis ****ing awesome.

Pittsburgh: RBBC due to injuries.

Baltimore: Full blown RBBC.

Kansas City: They sucked, therefore, they threw the ball far more than they ran it.

Oakland: RBBC.

San Diego: Tomlinson had a down year because of lingering injuries.

Denver: They went through eleventy billion RBs due to a rash of injuries.

Jacksonville: Timeshare.

Indianapolis: Addai was injured/ineffective when healthy, if he ever was truly healthy.

Houston: Slaton finished with 40 less yards than Jones on 22 fewer carries. With a worse offensive line.

Tennessee: Timeshare.

There are a few reasons that Thomas Jones led the AFC in rushing last year, a major one being that running back by committee is the current trend in the NFL. Eric Mangini being stuck in the dark ages of having a "plow horse" is the reason Jones won the conference rushing title. Not to mention the fact that Tomlinson, Parker, Addai, and Lynch were either missing games with injuries or playing hurt. The reason TJ led the AFC in rushing? Because his more talented backup only had 76 ****ing carries. Archaic coaching got him his "title", not talent. Jones was second in the conference in CARRIES. That's why he was 1st in rushing yards.

So basically, what you're saying in comparison is that:

1) Many AFC running backs look awful compared to Jones

2) Others were injured

3) Still others were in a RBBC

So, let's look at these points.

One, many backs look awful compared to Jones? That is a plus for TJ obviously.

TJ 1, AFC 0

Two, others were injured. Again, a plus for TJ since he was solid all year.

TJ 2, AFC 0

Three, RBBC. So for just 1 roster spot and the price of one contract, Jones carried the rock as if he was 2 running backs. Once again, a plus for TJ.

Final Score: TJ 3, AFC 0

Also, I like how you say that he was second in carries as if that is a bad thing. Anyone that can carry the rock that often with quality is a good player to have, not bad.

Let's say that this year David Harris leads the AFC in tackles next year. Is it somehow a knock on him to say, "well, he was in on the 2nd most plays"? No, I don't think so.. not at all. You still have to have the talent to make the tackles, stay in shape, have the fortitude to stay healthy, etc.

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