Redskins Cheerleader Disabled after Flu shot.

[JohnnyHector]

[quote name='Blackout

[villain_the_foe]

[quote name='Blackout

[villain_the_foe]

Your doctor was only looking to put that into your shot to do society a favor for years to come.

lol. you a wild boy.

[ZachEY]

[quote name='Blackout

[Bob]

Your doctor was only looking to put that into your shot to do society a favor for years to come.

Repped.

[villain_the_foe]

Almost every vaccination has mercury in it. Spermacide only means you *might* not be able to get someone pregnant that day.

A little research would help.

When you say that "almost every vaccine has mercury in it", are you making the suggestion that its cool because its in every vaccine? (Im just asking EY)

Babys are now given up to 25 vaccine/booster shots within their first two years before their immune system is fully operable (I believe this is to undermind the immune system so that infant isnt healthy and the drug business has another life long customer). The mercury in these 25 shots hold over 200% of what is considered safe for adult humans to have but we put that amount of mercury into our infants every single day simply because we trust the doctors. generally speaking, doctors only do what they were taught to do. They no longer do the research themselves, and the ones that actually do research voice their findings and get their practice liscenses revoked and if they work for themselves their practices shut down and their info never makes news....but it does make the internet. Overall the typical doctors always have the same conclusions...synthetic drugs. Dont believe me? The TV even says it. The TV advertises the drug to you, tell you the 1000's of side effects that come from the drug, then tell you to ask your doctor about this drug and if its right for you. This is backwards.

And what do they do if you dont give your child the 25 shots? You cant enroll your child in school because of the "threat" that he/she would pose to other children who "took the shot". That doesnt make sense either. Either the shots protect you or it doesnt. So they use the education system, and any other system that we have become subordinate to to make u do what they want you to do. And how many of us can affort to home teach our children? Many of us would do it if a 3rd of our check didnt go to taxes...we would be able to afford it. Instead mommy and daddy both have to work so you have no choice but to leave your child with the public system or risk not being able to pay rent.

Prescription drugs kill more people yearly then the Swine flu, But I still see Duane Reade all over the city like crack houses in the 80's. Its because their hustle has changed up, from crack and herion to Viagra and Tamiflu.

Nature (God) doesnt make mistakes like that, People trying to play god do. We flouridate the water and use the lame excuse that its good for your teeth, but when we reach alternative sources you see that there's a history of cases where flouride is a severe risk to your health...not only that but the main ingredient of rat poisoning is flouride, yet we brush our teeth with it, drink it, shower with it cook with it etc.

The Squalene in the swine flu shot is also the primary antibody found in the blood of soldiers who have Gulf War syndrome...from the vaccinations issued by the military. But when you make a connection like this people dismiss it the same way people make connections between infant vaccinations and autism. You can simply observe the parallels.

Im not saying this from a right/wrong perspective, however, as a person who has actually done a fair amount of research on this and many other areas I've seen some alarming things that make me much more cautious to simply "take a shot". When you try to force people to do things like take shots thats also something to look at. I've never seen "force" amongst people be utilized for good. I've seen a shytload of horrible things come about from force though. Slavery, Genocide, Holocaust,...pick your poison.

I tell you this. If this girl in the video would have done some research like you or me I think she would be a Redskin's cheerleader right now. Really sad what we do to one another on this planet. I try not to lose faith within all of us, but boy do we make it easy not to want to trust each other.

You know what I've always found alarming? How the best hospitals would boast about the thousands and thousands of people they've treated year after year. While ost would look at that hospital as a dependable hospital, I wonder why are there so many people sick, yet we're supposed to be at the "cutting edge" of medical practice? Something else that when you think about it doesnt make sense.

Speaking about something that REALLY DOESNT MAKE SENSE.....dont let me start on the infamous "Planned Parenthood". You'd be surprised.

[joebabyny]

When you say that "almost every vaccine has mercury in it", are you making the suggestion that its cool because its in every vaccine? (Im just asking EY)

Babys are now given up to 25 vaccine/booster shots within their first two years before their immune system is fully operable (I believe this is to undermind the immune system so that infant isnt healthy and the drug business has another life long customer). The mercury in these 25 shots hold over 200% of what is considered safe for adult humans to have but we put that amount of mercury into our infants every single day simply because we trust the doctors. generally speaking, doctors only do what they were taught to do. They no longer do the research themselves, and the ones that actually do research voice their findings and get their practice liscenses revoked and if they work for themselves their practices shut down and their info never makes news....but it does make the internet. Overall the typical doctors always have the same conclusions...synthetic drugs. Dont believe me? The TV even says it. The TV advertises the drug to you, tell you the 1000's of side effects that come from the drug, then tell you to ask your doctor about this drug and if its right for you. This is backwards.

And what do they do if you dont give your child the 25 shots? You cant enroll your child in school because of the "threat" that he/she would pose to other children who "took the shot". That doesnt make sense either. Either the shots protect you or it doesnt. So they use the education system, and any other system that we have become subordinate to to make u do what they want you to do. And how many of us can affort to home teach our children? Many of us would do it if a 3rd of our check didnt go to taxes...we would be able to afford it. Instead mommy and daddy both have to work so you have no choice but to leave your child with the public system or risk not being able to pay rent.

Prescription drugs kill more people yearly then the Swine flu, But I still see Duane Reade all over the city like crack houses in the 80's. Its because their hustle has changed up, from crack and herion to Viagra and Tamiflu.

Nature (God) doesnt make mistakes like that, People trying to play god do. We flouridate the water and use the lame excuse that its good for your teeth, but when we reach alternative sources you see that there's a history of cases where flouride is a severe risk to your health...not only that but the main ingredient of rat poisoning is flouride, yet we brush our teeth with it, drink it, shower with it cook with it etc.

The Squalene in the swine flu shot is also the primary antibody found in the blood of soldiers who have Gulf War syndrome...from the vaccinations issued by the military. But when you make a connection like this people dismiss it the same way people make connections between infant vaccinations and autism. You can simply observe the parallels.

Im not saying this from a right/wrong perspective, however, as a person who has actually done a fair amount of research on this and many other areas I've seen some alarming things that make me much more cautious to simply "take a shot". When you try to force people to do things like take shots thats also something to look at. I've never seen "force" amongst people be utilized for good. I've seen a shytload of horrible things come about from force though. Slavery, Genocide, Holocaust,...pick your poison.

I tell you this. If this girl in the video would have done some research like you or me I think she would be a Redskin's cheerleader right now. Really sad what we do to one another on this planet. I try not to lose faith within all of us, but boy do we make it easy not to want to trust each other.

You know what I've always found alarming? How the best hospitals would boast about the thousands and thousands of people they've treated year after year. While ost would look at that hospital as a dependable hospital, I wonder why are there so many people sick, yet we're supposed to be at the "cutting edge" of medical practice? Something else that when you think about it doesnt make sense.

Speaking about something that REALLY DOESNT MAKE SENSE.....dont let me start on the infamous "Planned Parenthood". You'd be surprised.

what are you talking about, pediatric vaccines other than flu have been free of the mercury preservative for almost a decade. Maybe you should find a new conspiracy theory book to read.

[ZachEY]

When you say that "almost every vaccine has mercury in it", are you making the suggestion that its cool because its in every vaccine? (Im just asking EY)

I'm saying that it's alarmist, in the same way people claim the swine flu is alarmist.

The mercury in vaccinations is part of a compound called thimerosal, which exits the blood incredibly quickly, and has been proven (with many studies) to not pose any health risk.

Further, only small levels of the compound are even found in modern vaccinations.

A bunch of people bought into the 'Vaccinations cause Autism' craze, based on one study which was funded by a legal team trying a case in which they needed to prove just that. Countless studies have proven this to be bad science since, but no one remembers those.

[villain_the_foe]

what are you talking about, pediatric vaccines other than flu have been free of the mercury preservative for almost a decade. Maybe you should find a new conspiracy theory book to read.

May we PM one another? maybe you can show me what you have and I'll do the same. Maybe we can learn from one another.

[villain_the_foe]

I'm saying that it's alarmist, in the same way people claim the swine flu is alarmist.

The mercury in vaccinations is part of a compound called thimerosal, which exits the blood incredibly quickly, and has been proven (with many studies) to not pose any health risk.

Further, only small levels of the compound are even found in modern vaccinations.

A bunch of people bought into the 'Vaccinations cause Autism' craze, based on one study which was funded by a legal team trying a case in which they needed to prove just that. Countless studies have proven this to be bad science since, but no one remembers those.

I remember this. I guess it boils down to what you want to believe, debunkers, debunkers who debunk debunkers or parallels. I dont go for "official" stories. Not saying you do, Im just saying I dont. What I do is follow the parallels.

You seem very informed about this, which are the type of people I like to hold these type of conversations with. I never want to feel like Im convincing someone because what I say sounds convincing or scary. I do feel that our point of views are different but you are no fool.

I take into consideration what many toxicological researchers and doctors have stated about the massive side effects of thimerosal, be it altering DNA fragmentation, to spasms etc. There are side effects from thimerosal EY.

Not trying to convice you or anything, and Im not saying that every piece of information that me or you come across is the unmoving "Truth", but I do think that there are many pieces that make common sense that tend to be completely ignored. Most would underestimate the power of common sense, but you and I know that common sense seems to be the most uncommon thing on the planet at times.

All im saying is that I dont allow the official story to be my official story, neither do I allow the alternative to...I look at the results of what is going on and those patterns. From there, I look at the work presented....especially from the people considered radicals or mad scientist. The people who are laughed at and/or ridiculed are ususally the people with the useful information. Thats a fact throughout history. Alternate info seems to have been more consistent with the situation of the times then the official report IMO. Its tangible.

If you would like some of what im talking about PM me. I dont want this thread to get too far off topic because of what we're talking about.

My bad for the edits.

[ZachEY]

Give this a read if you have interest. I think it's a strong synopsis of the MMR Vaccination/Autism scare.

http://www.newsweek.com/id/185853/page/1

My theory is that yes, occasionally people react poorly to vaccinations, but that's not really any different than people reacting poorly to peanut butter, or people getting hit by buses. The good far outweighs the bad, but occasionally, bad things happen. Do I think that cell phones cause brain tumors? No. Do I think that one or two people may have gotten a brain tumor thanks to their cell phone? Very Possible.

Further, people in trauma look for a reason for their suffering, so they're willing to cling to bad science if it helps them point the finger.

[villain_the_foe]

Give this a read if you have interest. I think it's a strong synopsis of the MMR Vaccination/Autism scare.

http://www.newsweek.com/id/185853/page/1

My theory is that yes, occasionally people react poorly to vaccinations, but that's not really any different than people reacting poorly to peanut butter, or people getting hit by buses. The good far outweighs the bad, but occasionally, bad things happen. Do I think that cell phones cause brain tumors? No. Do I think that one or two people may have gotten a brain tumor thanks to their cell phone? Very Possible.

Further, people in trauma look for a reason for their suffering, so they're willing to cling to bad science if it helps them point the finger.

That was a very bold statement.

Im not comparing bus accidents to induced neurological disorders, that wouldnt be fair to the bus in my opinion. Seriously though, I will take a read and I will send you some info myself. Like I said, im not trying to convince you...you already have concluded that it is a "scare". I'd just would like you to read some stuff and hopefully you'll reconsider that it isnt "bad science" and something that could and should be looked at with more seriousness.

This is lives that we're talking about. Much more beyond right and wrong/ Official report and mad scientist.

[JerryK]

My father-in-law is always geting anti-vaccination stuff from his Chropractor.

The Chiropractors around here send people home with all the "vaccinations are evil" propaganda. It amazes me that they do NOT go to medical school, but advise people on non-chiropractic MEDICAL decisions, and have no legal liability for this.

Chiropractors want us to all be cured by their back rubs. My wife LOVES her chiropractor. She's been praising this chiropractor for about 10 years now. All I see is that after 10 years, her back STILL HURTS.

If you're afraid of vaccinations and modern medicine, let me tell you a story:

One of my best friends is in great shape. 6'8, was a starter in college BB and baseball. As a senior, he was selected by the Seattle Mariner's scouts for his pitching. (didn't go, long story). Well, his family is into all this "alternative" medicine stuff. They do all their medicine between their Chiropractor and their "holistic practitioner" who provides them with scented sniffing-oils and magical magnets. I love this guy but they've always been a little on the edge medically.

In February this year, he gets a backache. The chiropractor makes his money. They keep going...and the holistic guy does his song-and-dance for a month or so. Finally, (end-march) it's so bad, he can hardly walk. Hasn't left his house in 3 weeks. They reluctantly go to a REAL doctor. Guess what? His backache is multiple myeloma...a blood cancer that has entered his bones. It's normally curable, but his jackass chiropractor wanted his monthly 80 bucks more than suggesting the man see a real friggin' doctor. Now, he may not survive. His weight has plummeted. He hobbles into church and genuinely looks like a concentration camp survivor. We don't know if the guy will pull thru. He has a great wife and 3 kids.

What's my point in all this? Medical doctors aren't politicians. Most of them have a genuine desire to use science to make us all better. If you read a newspaper article that makes you fear Doctors...Be very afraid. Somebody's probably feeding you B.S. to collect some cash.

Rant over. Sorry....I really didn't intend to dump on this thread.

[ZachEY]

That was a very bold statement.

Im not comparing bus accidents to induced neurological disorders, that wouldnt be fair to the bus in my opinion. Seriously though, I will take a read and I will send you some info myself. Like I said, im not trying to convince you...you already have concluded that it is a "scare". I'd just would like you to read some stuff and hopefully you'll reconsider that it isnt "bad science" and something that could and should be looked at with more seriousness.

This is lives that we're talking about. Much more beyond right and wrong/ Official report and mad scientist.

It's only bold now that you literally bolded it.

It's a basic psychological principal. It's the same one that makes organized religion so popular. We search for meaning in life. When something bad happens, we want to know why. In religion, the answer is, 'God had a plan'. In Autism, and other neurological disorders, it's often, 'vaccinations'. That doesn't mean that God doesn't have a plan, or god isn't real, nor that vaccinations don't cause damage, but rather they are convenient coping mechanisms.

I've concluded it's 'bad science' because by definition (the scientific method) that's exactly what it is. In order for something to be considered scientific fact, it needs to be reproducible. Thus far, the MMR/Autism studies have not been.

[villain_the_foe]

It's only bold now that you literally bolded it.

It's a basic psychological principal. It's the same one that makes organized religion so popular. We search for meaning in life. When something bad happens, we want to know why. In religion, the answer is, 'God had a plan'. In Autism, and other neurological disorders, it's often, 'vaccinations'. That doesn't mean that God doesn't have a plan, or god isn't real, nor that vaccinations don't cause damage, but rather they are convenient coping mechanisms.

I've concluded it's 'bad science' because by definition (the scientific method) that's exactly what it is. In order for something to be considered scientific fact, it needs to be reproducible. Thus far, the MMR/Autism studies have not been.

I doubt that me or you add to the popularity so easily. I hear what you saying but It isnt to "point the finger", it is to understand. Some people stop at a certain point with their search....there's a manufactured reasoning in place when people go half way. That is usually organized religion. We tend to look outside ourselves for the answers when everything that we to seek is inside. As a society we're on the cutting edge of science but spiritually we're f'ed up, looking outside ourselves.

Here you go. This is a new paper.

http://www.generationrescue.org/binstock/090518-Toxicity-of-Thimerosal.htm

This is much more specific, from Oxford University online Journal.

http://toxsci.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/86/1/132

I didnt read yours yet, I get off of work at 12 and im finishing up my paperwork. I'll make sure to read your work once I reach the house and some food, and will comment.

I do appreciate you sharing your thoughts though. Many people cant do that while also accepting other peoples points of view as their opinion. I even have a tough time with that sometimes.

You're a good dude EY.

[ZachEY]

I'll take a deeper look later, but to be honest, your quoting journals that I don't feel qualified to comment on. The article I gave you is in plain English and sure that means it's been pre-interpreted, but I know that I'm not educated enough to know what conclusions are being directly drawn from overly prolix medical terminology. They talk about lots of different processes that I'm not sure I know what they mean, so I can't say how practically they translate.

[villain_the_foe]

I'll take a deeper look later, but to be honest, your quoting journals that I don't feel qualified to comment on. The article I gave you is in plain English and sure that means it's been pre-interpreted, but I know that I'm not educated enough to know what conclusions are being directly drawn from overly prolix medical terminology. They talk about lots of different processes that I'm not sure I know what they mean, so I can't say how practically they translate.

Thats fair. I just didnt want to send you something that didnt atleast show figures from actual test that was ran. thats why I sent both. we'll both take a deeper look and continue later.

Be easy my dude.

[villain_the_foe]

Give this a read if you have interest. I think it's a strong synopsis of the MMR Vaccination/Autism scare.

http://www.newsweek.com/id/185853/page/1

My theory is that yes, occasionally people react poorly to vaccinations, but that's not really any different than people reacting poorly to peanut butter, or people getting hit by buses. The good far outweighs the bad, but occasionally, bad things happen. Do I think that cell phones cause brain tumors? No. Do I think that one or two people may have gotten a brain tumor thanks to their cell phone? Very Possible.

Further, people in trauma look for a reason for their suffering, so they're willing to cling to bad science if it helps them point the finger.

Reading your synopsis I can honestly say that Wakefields theory isnt being debunked based off of medical proof, but of the conflict of interest that was being put together to try to discredit him, hence his work.

Your synopsis was lengthy, but it didnt support the notion that the MMR vaccine was safe at all. Even with the researchers that found no connection to MMR and autism you have to take that with a grain of salt. Remember, you have to ask yourself "what was the purpose of their research"? If their purpose was to debunk a theory, find little to no connection then trust me, that would be quite easy to do. All you have to do is use the very motivation that you have for your reasoning and drawn a conclusion around that, completely utilizing facts that support your theory and omit other facts that would cause you to dig deeper for the actual truth. This is something that Darwin used quite often in his area of expertise. You cant tell that to a follower of Darwin though. They tend not to listen.

Remember, the very same people that stated in the very first paragraph that Wakefield felt a moral purpose to present this info did the same thing to protect their theory of the MMR vaccine being safe in the first place. They stated that his work faulty, based off of a conflict of interest. This in a court of law can work, but for the sake of our conversation I would have thought that I would get more of a medical approach to prove that the MMR vaccine is in fact safe and has no connection with the inflammed intestines and harmful proteins that Wakefield discovered in his tests. Instead, the creators of this synopsis took the easy way out and twisted words together to cause the reader to think a certain way...hence, and I quote: "Although in their paper the scientists noted that "we did not prove an association between the MMR and autism, Wakefield was adamant. "It's a moral issue for me," he said, "and I can't support the continued use of [the MMR] until this issue has been resolved."

This would lead the typical reader to believe that Wakefield is just making stuff up from here on out just because of his moral belief. In fact he's simply supporting his theory. You cannot prove an association with MMR and Autism and still call it a "theory". It would no longer be a theory but a fact. He specifically states that he cant support MMR until this theory has been put to rest...which is EXACTLY what a doctor that has lives in his hands everyday is supposed to do when coming across an inconsistency. There is no such thing as a stupid quesiton, or in this case, a stupid theory, especially if parallels indicate that neurological disorders are possibly being induced. You have to take EVERY caution when it comes to a situation where the mass population of the planet are receiving these shots. You see, the debunkers are concerned about making Wakefield look like an as$ if you will, Wakefield is more concerned about his medical practice and the patients that he provides care for. I honestly dont see the problem in this. And even if he's wrong for example, you have to always protect the right for someone to be wrong, because if we continue to simply discredit people with fancy wording and twisting of statements then how do we ever move forward with finding out the true cause of Autism in the first place when we cant even get over theoretic criticism of MMR and its possible connection with it? It is very important that we protect our right to be wrong; though from what I've read Mr. Wakefield is closer to the root then the debunkers give him credit for.

A much more clear cut question. Where is the medical research proving that his theory is wrong? My mama always told me that until you can PROVE an Idea wrong you have to take it for what its worth. His idea stands on the basis that though he didnt prove a direct association, he did show a timetable of 1 to 14 days after receiving the MMR that these ailments began (which is the parellel, and this stands even by the debunkers own words by stating that Autism "just so happens" to form around the time children receive their MMR shots). On I believe the 2nd page there was a statement that said the development of Autism just so happens to come about around the same time children get their MMR shots. Problem is this, you cant defeat a theory with another theory. If the MMR shot is safe, that has to be proven. Your synopsis didnt prove that. It used twisting of statements and info, conflict of interest and wordings to make it seem like what Mr. Wakefield was doing was complete nonsense instead of him actually being a concerned researcher and taking accountability for his profession and trying to make the medication that we give our young as safe as possible under his watch. This is simple, in order for Wakefields theory to be false, it must be proven that the inflammed intestines, the harmful protein in the blood traveling to the brain and causing havoc is not due to the MMR vaccine. The only way to prove this is to figure out what is causing these issues. Where is that information? Until that theory is truely dismissed by proof then his theory, no matter how absurd, is as credible as researchers saying that MMR is safe. They are both theories, except one is widely accepted as truth, and the other one is built on actually establishing truth.

I got to the middle of page 3. Im tired my dude. Ill read the last page tomorrow and further my excercise of drilling holes into this poorly onsided presentation (IMO).

When you get a chance, go through my non-lengthy synopsis with the medical research and try to punch holes if you like. if you dont know the medical terms thats cool. Its enough regular english there to know where the researcher is going and when you come across words or phrases that you dont understand look it up. This is how I researched this. I want to be able to back up what I speak on so I cant just send you some paragraphs without atleast showing that I did my homework. You'd be hardpressed to drill holes though, especially with your own synopsis not even providing you with any type of medical proof...just some "conflict of interest" court house rhetoric (so far, still have one page to go).

Holla at you tomorrow my dude.

[Sharrow]

A mistake that a lot of people seem to make is the difference between correlation and causation. Like the ridiculous "gateway drug" arguments.

[ZachEY]

It's not so much what Wakefield said, but rather it's interpretations by the general populous that matter. In other words, even if Wakefield admits, which the author points out, that we are not yet certain, but, in the Kangaroo Court (or Court of Public Opinion), that didn't matter.

I would argue that the author does a better job pointing out Wakefield's admission than the general public, and that's what matters.

The point being, we've had numerous studies, since Wakefield's that have done their best to exhornorate MMR from Autism (it's impossible to prove 100% a negative, which helps create these scares) but those things get ignored.

Another thing I thought of on my way to work this morning relates more to the original posting. Lets say the flu shot does in fact cause dystonia. Well, at this point, significantly more people die from the flu than get dystonia from the shot. Those numbers get left out in these pieces.

[villain_the_foe]

It's not so much what Wakefield said, but rather it's interpretations by the general populous that matter. In other words, even if Wakefield admits, which the author points out, that we are not yet certain, but, in the Kangaroo Court (or Court of Public Opinion), that didn't matter.

I would argue that the author does a better job pointing out Wakefield's admission than the general public, and that's what matters.

The point being, we've had numerous studies, since Wakefield's that have done their best to exhornorate MMR from Autism (it's impossible to prove 100% a negative, which helps create these scares) but those things get ignored.

Another thing I thought of on my way to work this morning relates more to the original posting. Lets say the flu shot does in fact cause dystonia. Well, at this point, significantly more people die from the flu than get dystonia from the shot. Those numbers get left out in these pieces.

We cant say that a researchers theories dont matter, especially with the type of theory thats being presented. Im not interested in the kangaroo court, those people are only the spectators. These are the people that will agree with something based its popularity...even if someone shows them clear as day that their opinion is wrong.

I didnt find a shred of proof that MMR's are safe. Given that we're both not doctors I will not take it that far in regards to proof, however, there wasnt even a comprehensive piece of work put together to atleast assure Mr. Wakefield or the general public of the safety of the drug. Mr. Wakefield's character was attacked instead of his theory being put to rest. Yes, he stated that (at this particular time) there was no proof that MMR and autism was directly linked, but he did provide a time table which is all he needed to provide a theory strong enough in my opinion to warrant a deeper look, especially if it means protecting lives.

It isnt impossible to prove something if it is provable. Also, you say that you cant do it 100%, I'll accept that, but your report didnt even attempt at 10%. It only attacked Wakefields theory and point of view. It didnt respond with a point of view as well. Neither you nor myself, if taking a stand for the MMR shot can say that the report at hand even tried to give answers to the inflammed intestines, proteins etc. They didnt even try. They just ignored it. Again, if you cant prove a theory wrong then you have to respect its validity. I can show you (which I have) info from years ago up to now that can further validate the inconsistency with the MMR shot. We simply continue to turn the other cheek, and it most cases, never even hear about it because the media doesnt play all sides fairly and only supports the official doctrine. We both know thats not fair.

Doctors make the notion that these drugs are proven "Safe", this is where they go wrong. If they tell it how it is and state that its experimental then that will give the general public more of an accurate idea of what they're dealing with and then will allow them to atleast consider what a alternative researcher presents to the table. You have to admit, outside of Wakefields work being looked at as nonesense, there wasnt anything in your report to directly combat his findings. What was being done was a level of persuasion through putting words together for triggering points of view...not fact; shyt, not even a hypothesis was presented. Wordsmiths do this very well.

As for the flu/dystonia piece, you're right. My only response is this, many people suffer different types of ailments from these shots, not just Dystonia. However, these are always pushed to the side so we never really get an accurate view of whats really going on. There's people on this very site that have even stated that they got sick right after they got the flu shot. Why would we take a shot that makes us sick when we werent sick in the first place? All because we were told that we need to take this shot because we need to be safe from something that our immune system will handle itself. We continue to undermind our own natrual defenses with sythetics and then want to defend the synthetics when more and more people gets sick, on top of trying to debunk researchers theories on putting together and showing the inconsistencies to why people may be getting sick. This to me just doesnt make sense. The more meds we present, the sicker people are. When I was growing up, I was considered to be just a hyper kid with alot of energy to burn. Now this is called A.D.D. and we're trying to medicate what a park, a bike and some quaility time with parents could satisfy.

People who notice the parallels can atleast consider Wakefields work simply by knowing that for the past 30 years humanity has been making and using more and more drugs for more and more things. Most of these things are synthetic. Its gotten to the point where even TV runs ads on new "break through" drugs that in all reality is not break through. The drugs are to help you "live with the condition or disease" than to cure it. Well, a person like myself that understands that the medical field is a business will then ask this. Why would I cure a "dis-ease" when I can help people live with it by masking the symptoms? They will come back again and again for the same drugs. If I cure it they only come one time.

You and I both know that there are massive politics in the medical field, and at the end of the day in every field...money talks. This is the problem we face today. We'll discredit a person that is looking past the money and are trying to fix a problem, or at minimum, show that there IS a problem. Autism isnt being taken seriously, just like breast cancer for example. We'd rather look at football players where pink cleats and gloves instead of doctors finding a cure. We cant find a cure for cancer but we can surely build a hydrogen bomb that can destroy countries as we know it. Our priorities are messed up.

[ZachEY]

We cant say that a researchers theories dont matter, especially with the type of theory thats being presented. Im not interested in the kangaroo court, those people are only the spectators. These are the people that will agree with something based its popularity...even if someone shows them clear as day that their opinion is wrong.

I didnt find a shred of proof that MMR's are safe.

Unfortunately, I think it does matter. Popular opinion shapes our beliefs. You made a joke against me with a photo of a ship sailing off the end of a flat world. Fact is, people believed that, because it was popular opinion and there was no proof. In many cases, it's not the truth that shapes our behavior, but the version of the truth that is widely accepted. The 'Swine Flu Pandemic' is about popular opinion, not about fact, and that's the parallel I'm trying to draw for you. Everyone believes it's a bigger problem than it is, so we all fear it. Much like, I believe, many people think MMR Vaccination is the cause of these other problems, so campaigns are launched against it, etc.

Again, as I said, it's hard to prove a negative. There's no definitive proof that they do cause these problems as yet either. So, really, are we not back where we started?

Also, the point of view I gathered from the article was discrediting Wakefield and adding that numerous studies since then have found no link, which further discredits the original study, which doesn't have to be based on anything more than as I mentioned before, the necessity of reproduction in scientific method.

[villain_the_foe]

Unfortunately, I think it does matter. Popular opinion shapes our beliefs. You made a joke against me with a photo of a ship sailing off the end of a flat world. Fact is, people believed that, because it was popular opinion and there was no proof. In many cases, it's not the truth that shapes our behavior, but the version of the truth that is widely accepted. The 'Swine Flu Pandemic' is about popular opinion, not about fact, and that's the parallel I'm trying to draw for you. Everyone believes it's a bigger problem than it is, so we all fear it. Much like, I believe, many people think MMR Vaccination is the cause of these other problems, so campaigns are launched against it, etc.

Again, as I said, it's hard to prove a negative. There's no definitive proof that they do cause these problems as yet either. So, really, are we not back where we started?

No....the social norms which dictate public/popular opinion shapes our beliefs. This is exactly why outside of football I dont watch television. Of course people believed that the world was flat at one time. This is because they didnt have the whole truth, only part.

Fact: There were people burned at the stake, thrown in jail for life simply because at that time they disagreed and stated that they earth was round. People couldnt fathom this because they thought that people would fall off at the bottom. It was only until gravity was understood that people was able to "broaden their perception of what is possible in this reaility" and realize that the earth is in fact round. Once this happened, it became the social norm. Now you would be looked at as an idiot if you were to say the earth was flat. Yet, a few hundred years ago if you believed the truth it would have gotten you killed or imprisoned. However, what happened to all of the pioneers who were thrown in jail and burnt at the stake for popular belief? I also sent you something from Ghandi that said that even if it is the minority, the truth is still the truth.

The swine flu pandemic isnt a pandemic you see. Wordings like "pandemic" can cause you to take a shot that can possibly make you sick...causing the very pandemic that you were running away from in the first place instead of confronting it. The powers that be understand this very well.

We are definitely back where we started, and that start is to consider without bias someones theory...especially if you cant provide proof that the theory is wrong. Thats what i've been presenting to you all this time. The theories should be looked at closely. I wish to goodness that Wakefield is wrong, especially knowing that literally billions of people take these shots. We dont know what these shots do to us, only what we're told it does. Is that not fair to say? Also, isnt it fair to question, especially if we are being forced as parents to give to our children before we even get them home to a warm and loving home? Also, there was alot of other stuff that I stated in my last post that you didnt really touch. IMO that kinda helps with my point im presenting.

[Mandarinia]

holy heck thats scary. I never received a flu shot, and now, never will.

[villain_the_foe]

holy heck thats scary. I never received a flu shot, and now, never will.

Dont do that. Dont take what you've read in this convo as the end result. I used to do that alot when I started to think differently. I realized that though I seen something wrong, just to take someone elses point of view simply because its was the alternative isnt smart to do. If you have concerns about the flu shot PLEASE...do not take what I or EY have said as "fact". This is simply a conversation btwn people with different approaches to life. Do the research yourself and come to your own conclusion that is genuine to you. I am not a leader of men/women, only myself.

[ZachEY]

No....the social norms which dictate public/popular opinion shapes our beliefs. This is exactly why outside of football I dont watch television. Of course people believed that the world was flat at one time. This is because they didnt have the whole truth, only part.

Fact: There were people burned at the stake, thrown in jail for life simply because at that time they disagreed and stated that they earth was round. People couldnt fathom this because they thought that people would fall off at the bottom. It was only until gravity was understood that people was able to "broaden their perception of what is possible in this reaility" and realize that the earth is in fact round. Once this happened, it became the social norm. Now you would be looked at as an idiot if you were to say the earth was flat. Yet, a few hundred years ago if you believed the truth it would have gotten you killed or imprisoned. However, what happened to all of the pioneers who were thrown in jail and burnt at the stake for popular belief? I also sent you something from Ghandi that said that even if it is the minority, the truth is still the truth.

The swine flu pandemic isnt a pandemic you see. Wordings like "pandemic" can cause you to take a shot that can possibly make you sick...causing the very pandemic that you were running away from in the first place instead of confronting it. The powers that be understand this very well.

We are definitely back where we started, and that start is to consider without bias someones theory...especially if you cant provide proof that the theory is wrong. Thats what i've been presenting to you all this time. The theories should be looked at closely. I wish to goodness that Wakefield is wrong, especially knowing that literally billions of people take these shots. We dont know what these shots do to us, only what we're told it does. Is that not fair to say? Also, isnt it fair to question, especially if we are being forced as parents to give to our children before we even get them home to a warm and loving home? Also, there was alot of other stuff that I stated in my last post that you didnt really touch. IMO that kinda helps with my point im presenting.

I didn't touch on everything because I don't really have the time to get into a point by point debate. I really shouldn't be doing this at all right now, but I'm procrastinating.

I think you basically just made my point when you say that:

The swine flu pandemic isnt a pandemic you see. Wordings like "pandemic" can cause you to take a shot that can possibly make you sick...causing the very pandemic that you were running away from in the first place instead of confronting it.

If it's viewed as a problem, then people will act like it is, regardless of fact. Even if the original claim, be it the danger of the swine flu, or the MMR vaccination can not be verified.

The fact that 'literally billions' of people are taking these shots is also supportive of their merit, no? Because literally Billions of people are safe from MMR and an incredibly small number of people are presenting the side effects. Further, in the case of autism, we do see it in unvaccinated populations, thus making it more difficult to establish causation.

[ZachEY]

holy heck thats scary. I never received a flu shot, and now, never will.

You should note that Guillan Barre (according to 'New Scientist) is 40X more likely to occur from the actual flu, than the flu shot.

I'm not so confident there's ever been another recorded case of Dystonia from Flu Shot before.

[ZachEY]

Also, Villian, I know this wont really mean much to you, but it seems as if the original topic, the connection to dystonia, has been removed from the Dystonia Wikipedia, as professionals seem to be doubting the causation there...

Also... This:

There have been continuing inquiries and comments about the Maryland woman who reports developing dystonia as a result of getting a flu shot.

Because of the concern of individuals with dystonia as to whether or not to get a flu shot because of this reported case, DMRF sought the opinion of Dystonia experts on this case. It is their unanimous consensus that this case does not appear to be dystonia but rather a stress reaction of some type.

Since there has never been a validated case of dystonia resulting from a flu shot, the experts polled believe this case should not deter anyone from getting a flu shot. As with any medical procedure or treatment option, BEBRF encourages you to discuss the risks and benefits of getting the flu vaccine with your doctor. Bob Campbell

BEBRF Webmaster

[villain_the_foe]

I didn't touch on everything because I don't really have the time to get into a point by point debate. I really shouldn't be doing this at all right now, but I'm procrastinating.

I think you basically just made my point when you say that:

The swine flu pandemic isnt a pandemic you see. Wordings like "pandemic" can cause you to take a shot that can possibly make you sick...causing the very pandemic that you were running away from in the first place instead of confronting it.

If it's viewed as a problem, then people will act like it is, regardless of fact. Even if the original claim, be it the danger of the swine flu, or the MMR vaccination can not be verified.

The fact that 'literally billions' of people are taking these shots is also supportive of their merit, no? Because literally Billions of people are safe from MMR and an incredibly small number of people are presenting the side effects. Further, in the case of autism, we do see it in unvaccinated populations, thus making it more difficult to establish causation.

Yeah, forgot that you're at work. I work the afternoon shift so im bullshyting right now myself. My point that you pointed out certainly can work in your favor too. Thats the beautiful thing about establishing theories to work on. My only problem is the fact that 800 million people are being "scared" into taking this swine flu vaccine simply because 1000 people of 800 million people have died from it. The news make it seem like a plague. You see it everyday on the news. Honestly, when is the last time you've turned on the TV or was just conducting your life and did not hear about the swine flu.

This is like the new fad. go to any news or information website, it wont be long before you come across it. What are the percentages of 8,000,000 to 1,000 in comparison? The media is taking it to such the ridiculous heights that even me and you, two people who are usually at one another throats have to even call a time out to speak sensibly . What is the world coming to EY? lol.

Seriously though, Look at the Swine flu scare of 1976 and tell me what you think. 500 people got sick and 25 people died, in a span of 10 weeks like 50 million people got a shot simply because the TV told them that this was going to spread all over the country. It didnt, and 1000's of more people died from "what was supposed to help" then the actual flu itself. Dude, this isnt me talking, this is actual documented fact.

You absolutely have a valid point about MMR's, given that it is a THEORY, let me not discredit that. My problem is that the CDC, FDA and doctors in general are posing the safety of the drug as fact and not theory. This is my #1 and only problem. If it was a fact I wouldnt have any legs to stand on within this conversation my dude.

It isnt a fact. No one was able to discredit the researchers findings in regards to the parallel, and this is only in respects to the person in your report, I havent even touched the information that I sent you...keep that in mind. Again, for the sake of our health, this is more important than what me and you believe to be the social norm of the planet. Lets get past all the make up and beauty of this and get right to the core. MMR's are theoritically safe. Lets put it that way.

[villain_the_foe]

Also, Villian, I know this wont really mean much to you, but it seems as if the original topic, the connection to dystonia, has been removed from the Dystonia Wikipedia, as professionals seem to be doubting the causation there...

Also... This:

There have been continuing inquiries and comments about the Maryland woman who reports developing dystonia as a result of getting a flu shot.

Because of the concern of individuals with dystonia as to whether or not to get a flu shot because of this reported case, DMRF sought the opinion of Dystonia experts on this case. It is their unanimous consensus that this case does not appear to be dystonia but rather a stress reaction of some type.

Since there has never been a validated case of dystonia resulting from a flu shot, the experts polled believe this case should not deter anyone from getting a flu shot. As with any medical procedure or treatment option, BEBRF encourages you to discuss the risks and benefits of getting the flu vaccine with your doctor. Bob Campbell

BEBRF Webmaster

Dude, i've noticed alot of inconsistencies about Wiki and their lack of usage of things on their site when it comes to proper representation in their encylopedia. I'd rather use multiple sources to help narrow things down.

[ZachEY]

Here's a few quotes in the aftermath of this girl:

Many doctors, experts, and the Centers For Disease Control still say the seasonal flu vaccine is safe and recommends the general public get the shot.

There is no definitive research to prove that the seasonal flu can cause Dystonia but there's nothing to disprove it either. So rare, that many doctors 9NEWS NOW talked with, haven't even heard of such a reaction due to the vaccine.

9NEWS NOW dug deeper. The CDC says its Vaccine Adverse Events Reporting Systems or VAERS reveals there have been 5 reports* since 1991 of people suffering from dystonia after a billion doses of seasonal flu vaccines were administered.

http://www.wusa9.com/news/local/story.aspx?storyid=92392&catid=158

The asterik is mine because there's a conflicting report that it's only 3 in over a billion.

Now, this is what is scary. 5 per over a billion have reported this. And we still can't establish a definitive cause. However, from the CDC:

more than 200,000 people are hospitalized from flu-related complications; and

about 36,000 people die from flu-related causes.

But, back to popular opinion. People will remember Desiree because she's got a pretty face and pretty dramatic symptoms. Not the numbers. That's adding to the vaccination scare. When in reality, we need to remember that 10 days after, does not mean, 'because of'.

The point being, you have an astronomically larger chance of dying from the flu than you do of getting a neurological disorder from the shot.

[ZachEY]

Dude, i've noticed alot of inconsistencies about Wiki and their lack of usage of things on their site when it comes to proper representation in their encylopedia. I'd rather use multiple sources to help narrow things down.

As I said, I didn't think it would affect your POV, just pointing it out.

[villain_the_foe]

Here's a few quotes in the aftermath of this girl:

http://www.wusa9.com/news/local/story.aspx?storyid=92392&catid=158

The asterik is mine because there's a conflicting report that it's only 3 in over a billion.

Now, this is what is scary. 5 per over a billion have reported this. And we still can't establish a definitive cause. However, from the CDC:

But, back to popular opinion. People will remember Desiree because she's got a pretty face and pretty dramatic symptoms. Not the numbers. That's adding to the vaccination scare. When in reality, we need to remember that 10 days after, does not mean, 'because of'.

The point being, you have an astronomically larger chance of dying from the flu than you do of getting a neurological disorder from the shot.

Remember those parallels that I mentioned earlier? It came up again.

Your researcher noticed the change in health of the children between 10 to 14 days of the children taking the shot.

Desiree becomes sick 10 days after she receives this shot.

Im not saying that the concoction of drugs will give a person Dystonia every time. There are many other issues that we havent touched on that points theoretically at vaccines in general, for example, the possibility of peoples IQ's being stunted given these shots as well as many other things that cant be disproven.

What kills me is this. We take chances with our bodies to not catch the flu...something that is treatable none the less, just to take shots that if they go wrong can do things to you that are "irreversable". Also, the flu (From what we are told) changes seasonally, this is why if you have a flu shot last year you'll have to get another one this year. The shots are not the same year in year out so you cant say that Desiree's situation is isolated when the concoctions are not even isolated.

And with the swine flu, there have been doctors and researchers to go as far as saying that the shot wont help given the unusual transformation nature of this particular strand. A researcher that was on Russian news a few months back had even made the statement that there's a great possiblity that this strand of the swine flu was manufactured in labs in the US. Not saying that this is true, but do you and I know what are going on in these labs? We're not even told whats going on in most labs. We know that even on major university campuses bacterial cultures are experimented with.

Look at the swine flu situation in the city over the summer. The media called it an "outbreak" yet I noticed that the swine flu was mainly secluded to Queens public schools and Rikers island. That isnt an outbreak, this is an isolated incident. How can an outbreak be isolated at the sametime?

INCONSISTENCIES!

Oh, and I find it really amusing how given the great push to get the children vaccinated that the outbreak just so happened to be in public schools too.

[ZachEY]

Villian, I get that there are these parallels, I'm just pointing out, that in any study, a result of 5 in a billion would be deemed statistically insignificant.

If 5 people in a billion ate a BLT before beating their wives, is it fair to say that eating BLTs cause spousal abuse?

That's the whole point I'm trying to make... You are much more likely to die of the flu, or Measles, Mumps, Rubella, or Polio, or any of the other things we're vaccinated for, then you are to get a neurological disorder of which only a casual relationship can be formed as of now.

[neckdemon]

Remember those parallels that I mentioned earlier? It came up again.

Your researcher noticed the change in health of the children between 10 to 14 days of the children taking the shot.

Desiree becomes sick 10 days after she receives this shot.

Im not saying that the concoction of drugs will give a person Dystonia every time. There are many other issues that we havent touched on that points theoretically at vaccines in general, for example, the possibility of peoples IQ's being stunted given these shots as well as many other things that cant be disproven.

What kills me is this. We take chances with our bodies to not catch the flu...something that is treatable none the less, just to take shots that if they go wrong can do things to you that are "irreversable". Also, the flu (From what we are told) changes seasonally, this is why if you have a flu shot last year you'll have to get another one this year. The shots are not the same year in year out so you cant say that Desiree's situation is isolated when the concoctions are not even isolated.

And with the swine flu, there have been doctors and researchers to go as far as saying that the shot wont help given the unusual transformation nature of this particular strand. A researcher that was on Russian news a few months back had even made the statement that there's a great possiblity that this strand of the swine flu was manufactured in labs in the US. Not saying that this is true, but do you and I know what are going on in these labs? We're not even told whats going on in most labs. We know that even on major university campuses bacterial cultures are experimented with.

Look at the swine flu situation in the city over the summer. The media called it an "outbreak" yet I noticed that the swine flu was mainly secluded to Queens public schools and Rikers island. That isnt an outbreak, this is an isolated incident. How can an outbreak be isolated at the sametime?

INCONSISTENCIES!

Oh, and I find it really amusing how given the great push to get the children vaccinated that the outbreak just so happened to be in public schools too.

yeah it's a big conspiracy.......