Its Official..Even Rex cant fix 'The Ghoul'

[bitonti]

He had 4.5 sacks his 2nd year. How many will Gholston have?

yeah so... Bryan THomas had 1 sack his 2nd year... Gholston could exceed both players or he could not.. either way still too soon to rule him a bust.

[Irish Jet]

BUT DID YOU SEE THAT HIT IN PRESEASON???!!1! YOU CAN'T TEACH THAT!!111!!!

This post FTW!

[Irish Jet]

Gholston registered a tackle as a rookie.

Championship

[Klecko73isGod]

Hugh Douglas had 18 sacks and a TD in his first two seasons, and that was with Rich Kotite coaching him. We can only dream about Gholston starting so slow.

Farrior - 58 tackles and 1 1/2 sacks as a rookie.

Pace - 5 1/2 sacks, two forced fumbles his first two years.

Even Vrabel had 4 sacks in his first two years.

Gholston registered a tackle as a rookie.

Actually Hugh Douglas didn't get off to a slow start by any stretch of the imagination. In fact, he was Defensive Rookie of the Year in 1995 with 10 sacks, easily one of the best Jets draft picks ever.

[JiF]

VG is terrible. He's just not good. Its a shame. All the physical attributes most players dream they had, but he's just not a Football player.

He played decent in spots this year, but there is no reason to think this kid will be worth damn in the NFL.

[Barton]

he cant turn his hips. unbelievable.

[bitonti]

VG is terrible. He's just not good. Its a shame. All the physical attributes most players dream they had, but he's just not a Football player.

He played decent in spots this year, but there is no reason to think this kid will be worth damn in the NFL.

ya know what's great

listening to people complain about a 23 year old defender

after a 38-0 butt whupping of Oakland.

yeah the defense pitched a shut-out, now seems like a great time to discuss how big of a bust Vernon Gholston is...

you guys are ridiculous.

oh by the way how many sacks did Westerman get? 0? they should cut him! no they should pants him on national TV then cut him! argh!

[SouthernJet]

ya know what's great

listening to people complain about a 23 year old defender

after a 38-0 butt whupping of Oakland.

yeah the defense pitched a shut-out, now seems like a great time to discuss how big of a bust Vernon Gholston is...

you guys are ridiculous.

oh by the way how many sacks did Westerman get? 0? they should cut him! no they should pants him on national TV then cut him! argh!

why cut westerman? he actually gets on the field as opposed to The Ghoul

[Vicious89x]

ya know what's great

listening to people complain about a 23 year old defender

after a 38-0 butt whupping of Oakland.

yeah the defense pitched a shut-out, now seems like a great time to discuss how big of a bust Vernon Gholston is...

you guys are ridiculous.

oh by the way how many sacks did Westerman get? 0? they should cut him! no they should pants him on national TV then cut him! argh!

Well, maybe that's ok for a undrafted FA. But for first round #6 overall? Not so much.

[New York Mick]

yeah so... Bryan THomas had 1 sack his 2nd year... Gholston could exceed both players or he could not.. either way still too soon to rule him a bust.

You're ****ing kidding right? BT isn't even a JAG he's a step lower and you want to save face by comparing VG to him? ****ing lovely way to debate, my kid can't dunk a basketball yet but neither could Steve Hawking.

VG sucks there is no other way to look at it, Woodhead had more tackles then him against the Raiders.

[New York Mick]

ya know what's great

listening to people complain about a 23 year old defender

after a 38-0 butt whupping of Oakland.

yeah the defense pitched a shut-out, now seems like a great time to discuss how big of a bust Vernon Gholston is...

you guys are ridiculous.

oh by the way how many sacks did Westerman get? 0? they should cut him! no they should pants him on national TV then cut him! argh!

Did we spend a high pick and a ton of money on Westerman? No, so it's ok for him to suck he is a long shot and he is still getting on the field more then your boy wonder.

[JiF]

ya know what's great

listening to people complain about a 23 year old defender

after a 38-0 butt whupping of Oakland.

yeah the defense pitched a shut-out, now seems like a great time to discuss how big of a bust Vernon Gholston is...

you guys are ridiculous.

oh by the way how many sacks did Westerman get? 0? they should cut him! no they should pants him on national TV then cut him! argh!

I'm very happy about our defensive effort yesterday. I didnt start this topic, but since somebody brought it up, I chimed in and from everything I've seen except for a couple of times this year, VG just doesnt look like a Football player.

You're the projection expert, draft guru guy...how can you look at VG and see any potential. Even in the games that he played well, he never showed any signs of being more than a depth type player. I noticed and defended him for a good game against Tenn., other than that, he's been no-existent.

And why do you love him so much? Its weird.

[New York Mick]

And why do you love him so much? Its weird.

Because he doesn't like admitting he was wrong.

[JiF]

Because he doesn't like admitting he was wrong.

Yeah, I've never had a problem with that. I like to get involved in the draft stuff just as much if not more than anyone else, but I can admitt when I'm wrong.

For example, Matt Ryan, I thought he would be collasal bust. DMC I thought was going to be a world beater. I thought Chris Long would be a monster. I was pretty much wrong about all of them.

VG, I was not wrong about though. He is terrible, like I projected him to be, and I still held out for hope and complimented when he performed decent...but there is just nothing to get excited about with VG.

I hope Bit is right and its just going to take a while to click, but I doubt it.

[JonEJet]

yeah so... Bryan THomas had 1 sack his 2nd year... Gholston could exceed both players or he could not.. either way still too soon to rule him a bust.

There's already a "Mark Sanchez is a bust crowd"

These "fans":bag:

[serphnx]

I mean, the guy did put up a lot of sacks, he also beat up J.Long quite a bit. I understand the pick more than a lot of people seem to, but I get your point.

I agree with BZ though, it seems like the experiment is over, and my guess is he's on the roster 1 more year, and then dropped. Though, without a CBA, I don't know how that would change things.

Unfortunate though, because if he was what we'd hoped, him and Pace would be dangerous.

From what I understand, and I remember reading scouting reports to this effect, he didn't use technique for those sacks. He relied purely on his physical gifts for it in college. At the NFL level, everyone is a freakish athlete. Some are more freakish than others, but everybody is at a ridiculous level, so you really absolutely need technique, and even if you're still relying on your physical attributes to be a top guy, you still put yourself in a position to use them because of proper technique.

Gholston didn't have ANY technique. This guy literally had nothing. I figured he could learn some from LT or something, but it really looks like he isn't picking anything up at all. I'm sure Ryan has personally tried to coach him as well. What can you do at this point?

[Barton]

Hip transplant is our only hope.

[SouthernJet]

What can you do at this point?

let him drive the Team Bus?

[bitonti]

BT isn't even a JAG

Another player people don't understand is Bryan Thomas. The guy is a rock on defense. doesn't get 10 sacks a year therefore he sucks.

whatever

if you guys measure everything by sack stats then yes everyone sucks. Mark Gastineau was awesome.

[ZachEY]

and did Pace suit up his 1st year?

It's posted above, 32 tackles and a sack. Not great, but significantly better than Gholston.

[ZachEY]

yeah so... Bryan THomas had 1 sack his 2nd year... Gholston could exceed both players or he could not.. either way still too soon to rule him a bust.

Gholston would have to get on the field in order to register a sack though. At this point, he's not even getting PT in a blow-out.

Just because the dude has big muscles doesn't make him good.

[villain_the_foe]

Over-rated State University

The football version of Duke.

[SouthernJet]

It's posted above, 32 tackles and a sack. Not great, but significantly better than Gholston.

haha, u missed the point..he freakin suited up,,he could have sat all game and done better than ghoul who wasnt suited in many games his 1st season

[ZachEY]

ya know what's great

listening to people complain about a 23 year old defender

after a 38-0 butt whupping of Oakland.

yeah the defense pitched a shut-out, now seems like a great time to discuss how big of a bust Vernon Gholston is...

you guys are ridiculous.

oh by the way how many sacks did Westerman get? 0? they should cut him! no they should pants him on national TV then cut him! argh!

Westerman, an UDFA has had more of an impact in 7 games with the Jets than Gholston, the #6 overall pick, has in 23.

And whether you're happy about it or not, regardless of the outcome of last week's game against the NFL's worst franchise, Gholston is a big topic for the New York Jets.

Here's a question, considering all those players you mentioned were both not drafted as high as Gholston and all outperformed him at this point in their career... Has there ever been a non-QB who started as poorly as Gholston and turned out not to be a bust?

[ZachEY]

haha, u missed the point..he freakin suited up,,he could have sat all game and done better than ghoul who wasnt suited in many games his 1st season

I thought you may have been going there... Missed it this time.

[New York Mick]

Another player people don't understand is Bryan Thomas. The guy is a rock on defense. doesn't get 10 sacks a year therefore he sucks.

whatever

if you guys measure everything by sack stats then yes everyone sucks. Mark Gastineau was awesome.

BT is a JAG nothing more nothing less the guy isn't a rock for ****sake.

[Ghost]

Disappointing. I see him out of the league in two years.

[jason423]

The lifespan on these guys is 3 years, so really Gholston has one more season to prove to the team he can improve and contribute. I think there is a financial reason for them not to play him right now until he shows enough in practice to be worthy of significant playtime.

[bitonti]

Here's a question, considering all those players you mentioned were both not drafted as high as Gholston and all outperformed him at this point in their career... Has there ever been a non-QB who started as poorly as Gholston and turned out not to be a bust?

its funny you threw 'non QB' in there, because when you take away QBs there's not alot of players left to choose from. some years like 1999 there were 3 QBs taken in the top 6.

however players selected at 6 overall or higher, in the last 10 years, who did not have good starts to their careers but bounced back:

RB Ricky Williams 1999

RB Cedric Benson 2005

TE Vernon Davis 2006

Vernon Davis is a notable name here as he was also known as a physical freak but also an "bust" who just had 3 touchdowns last week.

from the 2008 draft it should also be noted that Chris Long 2 overall, Darren McFadden 4 overall and Glenn Dorsey 5 overall are not playing any better than Vernon GHolston 6 overall.

Are Chris Long, Darren McFadden and Glenn Dorsey also busts? Well they might be if you want to apply labels early.

The truth is it's far too early to tell, 7 games into the 2009 season, whether or not 23 year old 2008 draft pick Vernon Gholston is a bust.

Anyone who insists otherwise doesn't understand the definition of the word bust.

3-5 years minimum it takes to fully judge a draft pick. That's industry standard. The Jets are in year 2 of Gholston's contract and he's still younger than most rookies. He's a boy amongst men. HE will mature and when he does I expect none of you to own up to the bashing... at least no more than a cursory "glad I was wrong" but not the constant obsession and harping that is happening now... after a 38-0 road win.

Edited October 27, 2009 by bitonti

[#27TheDominator]

haha, u missed the point..he freakin suited up,,he could have sat all game and done better than ghoul who wasnt suited in many games his 1st season

He didn't suit up for one game. One. Pace was suiting up for a Cardinals D that absolutely blew. Gholston was suiting up for a Jets D that was fairly stout and stacked at his position.

From what I understand, and I remember reading scouting reports to this effect, he didn't use technique for those sacks. He relied purely on his physical gifts for it in college. At the NFL level, everyone is a freakish athlete. Some are more freakish than others, but everybody is at a ridiculous level, so you really absolutely need technique, and even if you're still relying on your physical attributes to be a top guy, you still put yourself in a position to use them because of proper technique.

Gholston didn't have ANY technique. This guy literally had nothing. I figured he could learn some from LT or something, but it really looks like he isn't picking anything up at all. I'm sure Ryan has personally tried to coach him as well. What can you do at this point?

I don't buy this for a second. He may have technique problems, but it he were going all out he'd still be getting sacks and making plays against NFL level players. IMO his problem is mental. He lacks confidence in what to do and he hesitates or goes half speed which in the NFL makes you a victim. Lack of instinct. Can he learn it? Maybe, maybe not. Probably not.

[Matt39]

Gholston has zero change of direction speed. He's a rigid runner.

[flgreen]

Anyone who insists otherwise doesn't understand the definition of the word bust.

3-5 years minimum it takes to fully judge a draft pick. That's industry standard. The Jets are in year 2 of Gholston's contract and he's still younger than most rookies. He's a boy amongst men. HE will mature and when he does I expect none of you to own up to the bashing... at least no more than a cursory "glad I was wrong" but not the constant obsession and harping that is happening now... after a 38-0 road win.

Your right. I don't understand your definition on the word bust

In today

[bitonti]

Your right. I don't understand your definition on the word bust

In today’s NFL if it takes a player who has a 5 year $40,000,000 contract, 5 years to show any production. For that team he is surly a bust.

What good does it do the Jets if Gholston is a bum for 4 years, eats up all that cap space, has a good year in his 5th season, then signs with the Dolphins. He is a bust for the Jets.

In today’s NFL a player only gets into his second season to decide.

The only reason Gholston will be with the Jets for four years is because of his cap hit. If he were a 3rd rounder he would be following “the boar Hunter”.

When a rookie undrafted free agent takes your job away in your second season. You’re a bust .

I'm not a Gholston hater, I only recently went over to the dark side, but he sure has all the ear marks of a true bust

ok so by your logic, Chris Long, Darren McFadden, Glenn Dorsey are also busts from the same draft?

the only non-busts in the top 6 were Jake Long and Matt Ryan?

***

the term bust has nothing to do with the rate of adjustment between college and pros and it has little to do with whether the player is on his original team when he succeeds.

All that matters is does a player succeed or not?

for example, Calvin Pace didn't do much for the Cardinals... 1 good year... 3 or 4 mediocre years where he didnt' live up to billing. but for the Jets he a great player.

another example James Farrior had 1 good contract year for the Jets ... for the Steelers he's a great player.

You could go and ask a Cards fan if Calvin Pace is a bust... and he will tell you something different than a Jets fan. You can ask a Jets fan if James Farrior was bust and he will tell you something different than a Steelers fan.

The truth is a true bust is a player, proven over time to be VALUE-LESS. A player without value... or even worse, someone who actually hurts his team.

We aren't talking about expectations. No question Gholston is dissapointing compared to the expectations... but he's far from a bust.

I'll give you another example. Vinchenzo Testaverde was the #1 overall heisman winning QB from Miami. He didn't exactly save the Tampa Bay franchise... in fact he was down-right brutal as a Buc. However he went on to play in the league 20+ years... tens of thousands of passing yards, hundreds of touchdowns... great wins such as the Monday Night Miracle etc. Was Vinny T a bust?

using your harsh logic he was in fact a huge bust. I don't see him that way. the truth is not as severe. He never lived up to expectations but was still a great player in the league. Any1 who plays 20+ years is not a bust, I don't care what the price paid was...

It's far too early to declare Gholston a bust. Is he dissaopinting? Yes but he has plenty of time and natural ability to turn it around. He could be a pass rushing force by year 4... and that would be completely normal rate of transition.

Edited October 27, 2009 by bitonti

[Matt39]

I think its pretty safe to say McFadden is a bust. Dorsey as well.

[JiF]

its funny you threw 'non QB' in there, because when you take away QBs there's not alot of players left to choose from. some years like 1999 there were 3 QBs taken in the top 6.

however players selected at 6 overall or higher, in the last 10 years, who did not have good starts to their careers but bounced back:

RB Ricky Williams 1999

RB Cedric Benson 2005

TE Vernon Davis 2006

Vernon Davis is a notable name here as he was also known as a physical freak but also an "bust" who just had 3 touchdowns last week.

from the 2008 draft it should also be noted that Chris Long 2 overall, Darren McFadden 4 overall and Glenn Dorsey 5 overall are not playing any better than Vernon GHolston 6 overall.

Are Chris Long, Darren McFadden and Glenn Dorsey also busts? Well they might be if you want to apply labels early.

The truth is it's far too early to tell, 7 games into the 2009 season, whether or not 23 year old 2008 draft pick Vernon Gholston is a bust.

Anyone who insists otherwise doesn't understand the definition of the word bust.

3-5 years minimum it takes to fully judge a draft pick. That's industry standard. The Jets are in year 2 of Gholston's contract and he's still younger than most rookies. He's a boy amongst men. HE will mature and when he does I expect none of you to own up to the bashing... at least no more than a cursory "glad I was wrong" but not the constant obsession and harping that is happening now... after a 38-0 road win.

I too agree it too early to say he is a full on bust.

But let me ask you this....

Can you honsetly say that you've seen anything from Vernon that makes you think he's not going to be a bust? Because one decent game against Tenn. is not doing it for me and I've tried to believe in the guy and defend him. But when its all said and done the knock on VG entering the draft seems to be spot on, he's just not a Football player.

I hope you're right and it clicks before he leaves the Jets, but there is nothing that makes me believe the light will turn on.