Its Official..Even Rex cant fix 'The Ghoul'

[Smashmouth]

already answered this question... there were 3 players picked 6 overall or higher in the last 10 years that fit this description... one of which is Vernon Davis.

Everyone on the planet called Davis a bust... pretty much from the day he got there until last week... when he scored 3 TD and is the #1 receiving target on that team... i.e. exactly what they drafted him to be.

Who in the hell called Vernon Davis a bust ?? he had 52 catchs his second year and is a beast blocking. Then he had 32 catches which is not up to what was expected but its not horrible now this year hes going berserk. Hes always blocked well so tell me Bit who said Vernon Davis was ever remotely close to a bust ?

You are going strictly on possibility with Gholston he has played Horribly not bad not decent HORRIBLY he showed nothing. The guy has not gotten close to a sack or even a REAL pressure on a QB yet thats almost laughable. When I say Pressure I dont mean within 5 feet I mean either hitting a QB as he is about to throw or flushing the QB out of the pocket he has done neither of the 2. He stinks and the only reason he is on this team is because of his contract now please stop the crap with this guy its getting sickening

[JohnnyHector]

NO im trying to get a handle on the word "BUST"

A supposed pass-rusher whose career highlight, after a year and a half in the league, is running down an opposing ball carrier 25 yards down the field?

[bitonti]

Who in the hell called Vernon Davis a bust ?? he had 52 catchs his second year and is a beast blocking. Then he had 32 catches which is not up to what was expected but its not horrible now this year hes going berserk. Hes always blocked well so tell me Bit who said Vernon Davis was ever remotely close to a bust ?

go to google, type in "vernon davis bust" there are over 51,000 hits.

check em out there are literally legions of people saying he was a bust.

The guy has not gotten close to a sack or even a REAL pressure on a QB yet thats almost laughable. When I say Pressure I dont mean within 5 feet I mean either hitting a QB as he is about to throw or flushing the QB out of the pocket he has done neither of the 2. He stinks and the only reason he is on this team is because of his contract now please stop the crap with this guy its getting sickening

to be technical he flushed out Cutler and almost got him last year late against Broncos.

he was also very close to getting sacks against Collins and Brees

You are probably going to reply some BS about how im happy with "almost" (im not) but u said he never came close, that's completely untrue.

if we listened to the forum posters, Vernon Gholston has NO pro football ability. Critique a guy, ok but at least try to be honest.

[bitonti]

A supposed pass-rusher whose career highlight, after a year and a half in the league, is running down an opposing ball carrier 25 yards down the field?

what was Bryan Thomas' career highlight at this stage? Calvin Pace?

How many NFL players are stars at 23?

[bitonti]

VD got hurt in his rookie year, but still manged 3 TDs.

In his second season, he started all 14 games he was healthy for.

He managed 9 TDs before this season which is a huge step in production above Gholston.

you say that as a Jets fan looking back.

but SF fans looking forward saw all of this "EVIDENCE" as signs Vernon Davis was a pure BUST.

[slats]

you say that as a Jets fan looking back.

but SF fans looking forward saw all of this "EVIDENCE" as signs Vernon Davis was a pure BUST.

Regardless of what SF fans might've said, thought, or posted on the internet, Vernon Davis had a better start to his career than Gholston.

Give me a player with the same start as Gholston who actually became a player. The fact that you keep changing the parameters of the discussion only serves to underscore just how impossible that is.

[ZachEY]

you say that as a Jets fan looking back.

but SF fans looking forward saw all of this "EVIDENCE" as signs Vernon Davis was a pure BUST.

Who was the UDFA taking playing time away from Vernon Davis?

I don't care about what SF fans say, nor do I care about defining the term 'bust'... what I care about is Vernon Gholston's performance as a New York Jet. The man (boy if you want) was drafted to be a pass rushing specialist at #6 overall, and given millions upon millions of dollars.

Thus far, his career highlights, as pointed out are:

1. Almost sacking Jay Cutler last season.

2. Hitting David Carr hard in preseason and getting a penalty for it.

3. A preseason sack.

4. Tackling a running back from behind.

You've pointed to a ton of players who may not have been 'impact' right off the bat, but they started, or at the very least, were not 'irrelevent'. That's what Gholston is... Irrelevent.

You want to use another word besides bust... How about 'sucks'. Vernon Gholston sucks. Is it possible he wont 'suck' in the future? Yes. Can we say that he wont based on anything we've seen from him thus far? No.

[JohnnyHector]

already answered this question... there were 3 players picked 6 overall or higher in the last 10 years that fit this description... one of which is Vernon Davis.

Everyone on the planet called Davis a bust... pretty much from the day he got there until last week... when he scored 3 TD and is the #1 receiving target on that team... i.e. exactly what they drafted him to be.

Your comparables have been terrible, actually.

I looked back at the top 10 picks in every draft since 1990 and can't find one front-7 player that has done as little as Gholston has in his first 2 years in the league. Not Andre Wadsworth, Jamir Miller, Chris Clairborne, Courtney Brown, Jamal Reynolds, Brodrick Bunkley, Jamaal Anderson, or even Jonathan Sullivan. Not Glenn Dorsey or Chris Long, either...

I've been preaching patience with Gholston and still think the door hasn't shut on him completely, but it's closing rapidly. The fact of the matter is that there hasn't been a DL/LB drafted in the top 10 in the last 20 years that has done as little in his first season and a half as Vernon Gholston.

[ZachEY]

Your comparables have been terrible, actually.

I looked back at the top 10 picks in every draft since 1990 and can't find one front-7 player that has done as little as Gholston has in his first 2 years in the league. Not Andre Wadsworth, Jamir Miller, Chris Clairborne, Courtney Brown, Jamal Reynolds, Brodrick Bunkley, Jamaal Anderson, or even Jonathan Sullivan. Not Glenn Dorsey or Chris Long, either...

I've been preaching patience with Gholston and still think the door hasn't shut on him completely, but it's closing rapidly. The fact of the matter is that there hasn't been a DL/LB drafted in the top 10 in the last 20 years that has done as little in his first season and a half as Vernon Gholston.

I would celebrate this pwnage if there was any reason to get excited about the fact that you basically demonstrated that our guy is the worst since 1990.

[Klecko73isGod]

Your comparables have been terrible, actually.

I looked back at the top 10 picks in every draft since 1990 and can't find one front-7 player that has done as little as Gholston has in his first 2 years in the league. Not Andre Wadsworth, Jamir Miller, Chris Clairborne, Courtney Brown, Jamal Reynolds, Brodrick Bunkley, Jamaal Anderson, or even Jonathan Sullivan. Not Glenn Dorsey or Chris Long, either...

I've been preaching patience with Gholston and still think the door hasn't shut on him completely, but it's closing rapidly. The fact of the matter is that there hasn't been a DL/LB drafted in the top 10 in the last 20 years that has done as little in his first season and a half as Vernon Gholston.

+1

I am predicting 5 sacks for him this Sunday though....

[bitonti]

Give me a player with the same start as Gholston who actually became a player. The fact that you keep changing the parameters of the discussion only serves to underscore just how impossible that is.

ill give you two... Bryan Thomas and Calvin Pace.

im not the one changing the parameters... these are both first rounders, who dissapointed at first... got their game together... and became good if not great NFL players.

Keep in mind Gholston is 23. Pace is 27.

5 years from now Gholston will be 28, Pace will be 32.

Do we really think VG won't get better as he hits his prime? Because that's the position you guys are taking, that a 23 year old football player isn't getting any better than he is today.

[ZachEY]

ill give you two... Bryan Thomas and Calvin Pace.

im not the one changing the parameters... these are both first rounders, who dissapointed at first... got their game together... and became good if not great NFL players.

Keep in mind Gholston is 23. Pace is 27.

5 years from now Gholston will be 28, Pace will be 32.

Do we really think VG won't get better as he hits his prime? Because that's the position you guys are taking, that a 23 year old football player isn't getting any better than he is today.

You keep ignoring the fact that both of these players were significantly better than Gholston at this point in their careers.

I see no reason to believe VG will be in the league at 28.

[bitonti]

The fact of the matter is that there hasn't been a DL/LB drafted in the top 10 in the last 20 years that has done as little in his first season and a half as Vernon Gholston.

ok well how many DL/LB drafted in the top 10 in the last 20 years showed up to a team with 2 first round DL/LB on their just-signed 2nd contracts? How many of those players showed up to playoff caliber teams?

First off sack stats don't prove jack squat.

BUt if we leave that aside for a second... If VG were getting all the reps and his stats still stunk you'd all have a point. Mangini hardly played him... He played basically 4 games this year... HE shouldn't start over Pace or Thomas, there's nothing wrong or unexpected about that.

[bitonti]

You keep ignoring the fact that both of these players were significantly better than Gholston at this point in their careers.

3.5 or 1 sacks are significantly better than 0? These guys weren't productive anyway you want to look at it.

I see no reason to believe VG will be in the league at 28.

I'd take the other side of that action, anytime. He might not be the sackmaster they wanted but he'll linger in the league for a while, bank on it.

[JohnnyHector]

what was Bryan Thomas' career highlight at this stage? Calvin Pace?

Pace recorded 2 sacks against SF early in his second season and had 5 total in the same number of games that Gholston currently has zero.

Bryan Thomas had 1.5 sacks by this point, was not a top-10 pick, and didn't get the opportunity to start 4 games out of the gate in year two due to the suspension of one of the players ahead of him on the depth chart.

Besides, if Vernon Gholston's upside is Bryan Thomas (which he is sadly still far from), then he's a bust as the #6 pick in the draft.

How many NFL players are stars at 23?

There is a grey area between "useless" and "star", you know... right?

Edited October 27, 2009 by JohnnyHector

[Vicious89x]

ill give you two... Bryan Thomas and Calvin Pace.

im not the one changing the parameters... these are both first rounders, who dissapointed at first... got their game together... and became good if not great NFL players.

Keep in mind Gholston is 23. Pace is 27.

5 years from now Gholston will be 28, Pace will be 32.

Do we really think VG won't get better as he hits his prime? Because that's the position you guys are taking, that a 23 year old football player isn't getting any better than he is today.

Mayo- 23

K.Rivers- 23

Curry- 23

Cushing- 22

I'd say those guys are doing ok.

[bitonti]

Who was the UDFA taking playing time away from Vernon Davis?

his name was Eric Johnson. He wasn't a UDFA he was a 7th rounder. And he went to Yale.

[Matt39]

ok well how many DL/LB drafted in the top 10 in the last 20 years showed up to a team with 2 first round DL/LB on their just-signed 2nd contracts? How many of those players showed up to playoff caliber teams?

First off sack stats don't prove jack squat.

BUt if we leave that aside for a second... If VG were getting all the reps and his stats still stunk you'd all have a point. Mangini hardly played him... He played basically 4 games this year... HE shouldn't start over Pace or Thomas, there's nothing wrong or unexpected about that.

He didnt get in a game that was over at halftime. That should be a huge red flag when a UDFA is getting your reps.

[bitonti]

Mayo- 23

K.Rivers- 23

Curry- 23

Cushing- 22

I'd say those guys are doing ok.

none are stars or even living up to the pick.

Mayo was doing great but got hurt.

Rivers got his jaw broken by a wide out.

Curry is learing how to pass rush on a terrible defense.

Cushing gets alot of tackles on a very poor defense.

[Vicious89x]

none are stars or even living up to the pick.

Mayo was doing great but got hurt.

Rivers got his jaw broken by a wide out.

Curry is learing how to pass rush on a terrible defense.

Cushing gets alot of tackles on a very poor defense.

Yet Gholston can't produce on a good defense.

[ZachEY]

his name was Eric Johnson. He wasn't a UDFA he was a 7th rounder. And he went to Yale.

Bull crap.

Eric Johnson was a 5 year vet at the time who made a solid career for himself. You're going to tell me that's similar to Westerman, who's an UDFA in his first season.

I guess you're not going to address the rest of the post.

[Smashmouth]

ill give you two... Bryan Thomas and Calvin Pace.

im not the one changing the parameters... these are both first rounders, who dissapointed at first... got their game together... and became good if not great NFL players.

Keep in mind Gholston is 23. Pace is 27.

5 years from now Gholston will be 28, Pace will be 32.

Do we really think VG won't get better as he hits his prime? Because that's the position you guys are taking, that a 23 year old football player isn't getting any better than he is today.

Prime ? Vernon Gholston will be out of football in his prime.

Bit this is not about what a 6th pick has the potential to do this is about a bad football player who cant do any of the things it takes to be successful at his position or any position os defense for that matter.

He cant get off blocks and looks hopeless trying.

He can't tackle and is basicly a turnstile when he tries to grab a RB (usually arm tackling)

He tries to arm tackle and does not get the full force of his body into the tackle.

He is NEVER EVER in on an assist and never dives in the pile to try and force a fumble.

He has not had one big play in his entire NFL career. NOT ONE. The Johnson run was to his side and he got blown out of the play. Good LB's dont get blown out. He persued Johnson and caught him because the safties were closing in on the play which signifigantly slowed Johnson yet you give VG credit for a great play. Thats a Joke.

He never gets real pressure on the QB. EVER. The play you keep pointing out with Cutler was when Cutler rolled to Gholstons side and Gholston was not even blocked and began to persue Cutler. Bad example of pressure, really bad.

Just the fact that you would use 2 so called pressures in a span of 23 games as an example is beyond laughable.

[bitonti]

Pace recorded 2 sacks against SF early in his second season and had 5 total in the same number of games that Gholston currently has zero.

Bryan Thomas had 1.5 sacks by this point, was not a top-10 pick, and didn't get the opportunity to start 4 games out of the gate in year two due to the suspension of one of the players ahead of him on the depth chart.

The entire Jets defense for the first 4 weeks was getting TREMENDOUS pressure but very few sacks.

They did a great job and went 3-1.

The fact they didn't get sacks doesn't mean it was a bad defense. Far from it in fact.

I feel the same about GHolston, the fact he doesn't get sacks doesn't make him a bad player.

If it's year 5 of his career and he's still sack-free then sure call him a BUST. but now it's just too early, he could get much better... in fact that's what 23 year old player do more often than not... they get better.

[JohnnyHector]

ok well how many DL/LB drafted in the top 10 in the last 20 years showed up to a team with 2 first round DL/LB on their just-signed 2nd contracts? How many of those players showed up to playoff caliber teams?

Any more conditions on this scenario? Did he have to play for a college north of the Mason-Dixon line and east of the Mississippi? Do his first and last name also have to end in the same two letters?

First off sack stats don't prove jack squat.

They do when you're an OLB on a team that blitzes like crazy and you have ZERO.

BUt if we leave that aside for a second... If VG were getting all the reps and his stats still stunk you'd all have a point. Mangini hardly played him... He played basically 4 games this year... HE shouldn't start over Pace or Thomas, there's nothing wrong or unexpected about that.

If he had shown more flashes than one play against Tennessee where he actually hustled, then I would agree. He's been on the field more than enough to prove something, though, and he has yet to.

[bitonti]

Bull crap.

Eric Johnson was a 5 year vet at the time who made a solid career for himself. You're going to tell me that's similar to Westerman, who's an UDFA in his first season.

I guess you're not going to address the rest of the post.

it's me vs 17 chuckleheads in this thread sorry im not parsing every word of every post.

the niners didn't spend a first round pick on davis so that Eric Johnson would be playing

FWIW you guys are takling about Westerman getting more reps in 1 game out of 7. in the other 6 VG got way more reps than Westerman. Maybe Rex was trying something different but Westy did no better than VG.

[Vicious89x]

Pace recorded 2 sacks against SF early in his second season and had 5 total in the same number of games that Gholston currently has zero.

Bryan Thomas had 1.5 sacks by this point, was not a top-10 pick, and didn't get the opportunity to start 4 games out of the gate in year two due to the suspension of one of the players ahead of him on the depth chart.

Besides, if Vernon Gholston's upside is Bryan Thomas (which he is sadly still far from), then he's a bust as the #6 pick in the draft.

There is a grey area between "useless" and "star", you know... right?

This.

Most rookies fall in between showing promise of being something. Promise is production like tackles, assists, sacks, etc. Promise isn't OMG DID YOU SEE HIM GET OFF THAT BLOCK... FOR ONCE!!! AMAZING.

[ZachEY]

3.5 or 1 sacks are significantly better than 0? These guys weren't productive anyway you want to look at it.

Forget the sacks. They were on the field. Something Gholston can't even earn at this point.

[JohnnyHector]

it's me vs 17 chuckleheads in this thread sorry im not parsing every word of every post.

Doesn't that tell you something? Again, I'm one of the more patient ones when it comes to Gholston, but your defense of him is completely without merit. If Pace hadn't been suspended, I could even agree with you, but Gholston didn't show nearly enough in those games for me to think he will ever live up to his draft slot, or even be a solid starter.

Westy did no better than VG.

That's not exactly an argument to hang your hat on.

[bitonti]

He has not had one big play in his entire NFL career. NOT ONE.

Just the fact that you would use 2 so called pressures in a span of 23 games as an example is beyond laughable.

just the fact that you have enough evidence from his "entire" NFL career, basically a handful of games...

[ZachEY]

it's me vs 17 chuckleheads in this thread sorry im not parsing every word of every post.

the niners didn't spend a first round pick on davis so that Eric Johnson would be playing

FWIW you guys are takling about Westerman getting more reps in 1 game out of 7. in the other 6 VG got way more reps than Westerman. Maybe Rex was trying something different but Westy did no better than VG.

No, they didn't spend a 1st rounder so that EJ would be playing. But that's the difference. Davis did play. And he got hurt. And Eric Johnson was not retained after VD's rookie season.

No one expects VG to take BT or CP's job, but if he was a rotational player who showed flashes, at least there would be something to get excited about. He's done NOTHING.

As for chuckleheads, there's only one guy here supporting a #6 overall pick, who can't get on the field.

And, he has 1 less sack, but is no worse than a rookie UDFA. I'm just happy he fell to us.

Edited October 27, 2009 by EY

[bitonti]

That's not exactly an argument to hang your hat on.

My argument is not that Gholston will be great... my argument is that it's not right to call a guy a bust who is 23, broke the all time sack record at ohio state, runs a 4.6 40, jumps 42 inches straight up, benches 225 37 times, weighs 270 pounds, and still best football in front of him.

There's an awful lot of potential there... it might never be realized but writing him off now is foolhardy.

[Smashmouth]

it's me vs 17 chuckleheads in this thread sorry im not parsing every word of every post.

the niners didn't spend a first round pick on davis so that Eric Johnson would be playing

FWIW you guys are takling about Westerman getting more reps in 1 game out of 7. in the other 6 VG got way more reps than Westerman. Maybe Rex was trying something different but Westy did no better than VG.

And by reading this who would ya think had the 1 sack between them ?

[Vicious89x]

Doesn't that tell you something? Again, I'm one of the more patient ones when it comes to Gholston, but your defense of him is completely without merit. If Pace hadn't been suspended, I could even agree with you, but Gholston didn't show nearly enough in those games for me to think he will ever live up to his draft slot, or even be a solid starter.

That's not exactly an argument to hang your hat on.

I essentially gave up on him completely after the 3rd game this year. The truth is- when you're drafted that high you're expected to be inserted in the line-up and produce SOMETHING. The guys I mentioned aren't world beaters, but they are in there making plays and learning on the job. That's what most defensive guys do when drafted high. This isn't a QB position where it's more cerebral and you need to learn a ton and you need to absorb, etc. The reason I pointed out those other guys drafted around him or after is that they are in there doing SOMETHING. Gholston just hasn't done enough. If we were to insert him in the lineup for the sake of doing it we're doing it as a detriment to our team.

Right now Gholston is a body on defense. Not a player on defense.

[SouthernJet]

my concerns are 90% based on fact that a high 1st rounder in his 2nd year he isnt even making it out to the playing field much at all..

[ZachEY]

My argument is not that Gholston will be great... my argument is that it's not right to call a guy a bust who is 23, broke the all time sack record at ohio state, runs a 4.6 40, jumps 42 inches straight up, benches 225 37 times, weighs 270 pounds, and still best football in front of him.

There's an awful lot of potential there... it might never be realized but writing him off now is foolhardy.

There's no potential based on anything he's done in the NFL. That's the whole point. There's potential based on big muscles.

He has not once flashed potential at the NFL level.

Could Usan Bolt be a WR? He could beat every DB by 2-3 steps.

As I said before, fine, don't call him a bust, but at this point, he sucks. And he's shown no promise that he might not suck at some point later.