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Its Official..Even Rex cant fix 'The Ghoul'


SouthernJet

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My argument is not that Gholston will be great... my argument is that it's not right to call a guy a bust who is 23, broke the all time sack record at ohio state, runs a 4.6 40, jumps 42 inches straight up, benches 225 37 times, weighs 270 pounds, and still best football in front of him.

There's an awful lot of potential there... it might never be realized but writing him off now is foolhardy.

Bit pointing out a players physical status in the NFL and using it as an example of what you think he might become is a bad arguement. The guy can not play football on the NFL level and its not because of his physical ability its because hes a really bad football player. If you watch his technique in just about every aspect of his game he is terrible even when he bull rushes all he does is push back his blocker never making any attempt to come off the block and get to the QB. Also VG is 24 years old not 23.

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As I said before, fine, don't call him a bust, but at this point, he sucks. And he's shown no promise that he might not suck at some point later.

ok fine but he's still young enough that he can turn it around. Westerman is a UDFA he's also 24 and a full year older than Gholston.

if usain bolt went to miami university and broke Michael Irvin's receiving record... that would be something wouldn't it?

Gholston recorded somethng like 20+ sacks in the Big 12 I refuse to believe he forgot how to play ball.

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My argument is not that Gholston will be great... my argument is that it's not right to call a guy a bust who is 23, broke the all time sack record at ohio state, runs a 4.6 40, jumps 42 inches straight up, benches 225 37 times, weighs 270 pounds, and still best football in front of him.

If he was looking to be a contestant on the Superstars competition, then those numbers would impress me. Until they translate to on-the-field production, they're meaningless.

There's an awful lot of potential there... it might never be realized but writing him off now is foolhardy.

I'm not writing him off yet, but I'm also objective enough to realize that he has done less than any other front-7 player drafted in the top-10 over the last 20 years. That might not mean anything to you, but it is not a good sign from where I'm sitting.

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Also VG is 24 years old not 23.

June 5, 1986 (1986-06-05) he's 23. just turned it before training camp infact

I agree his technique sucks... remember who this player is... he was known as a project coming out of OHio State... Chris Long was the "safe" pick, GHolston was the "upside" pick... VG got all those sacks with no technique... imagine what he could do with some practice?

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I'm not writing him off yet, but I'm also objective enough to realize that he has done less than any other front-7 player drafted in the top-10 over the last 20 years. That might not mean anything to you, but it is not a good sign from where I'm sitting.

maybe the difference is that I don't care about the sunk cost. top 10 who cares? I don't care that the Jets used a high pick or that they paid him alot of money. I don't care that there's a UDFA with 1 more sack than him on the roster.

All that matters is does this player have potential going forward? and the objective answer is yes. if he was cut tomorrow every 3-4 team in the league would put in a claim, for the same reasons the Jets drafted him. Because he's young, powerful, fast and raw. He might never get it all together but if he does... watch out.

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ok fine but he's still young enough that he can turn it around. Westerman is a UDFA he's also 24 and a full year older than Gholston.

if usain bolt went to miami university and broke Michael Irvin's receiving record... that would be something wouldn't it?

Gholston recorded somethng like 20+ sacks in the Big 12 I refuse to believe he forgot how to play ball.

To me it's the same thing that's happened to Greg Oden here in Portland.

Both of these guys were the biggest, fastest, strongest guys in the game. They just, with their raw ability, overpowered people and imposed their will against WEAKER opponents.

When you get to the pro's, those weaker opponents are weeded out for the most part. You still have to be a good enough athlete and talent to even be 2nd or 3rd string in the NFL. And when you never have to rely on technique and know-how to be good, when you are put on a more level playing field you just never catch up to guys who have worked on those things.

It's not that he forgot how to play ball, it's that he never bothered to learn the fundamentals. He just physically dominated people. That changes in the NFL. There are only a select few that can do that at the NFL level and VG is not one of those guys.

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For those arguing that VG is a bust and ganging up on Bit over it....what do you want Bit to say?

I think his argument is fair. Its too early to call VG a full on bust. Why is he wrong and why cant he have that opinion?

For me, it's not that he's claiming it's to early to call Gholston a complete bust (because I happen to agree)... it's his assertion that there are players in recent history whose performance in their first 2 years was comparable (no top-10 picks in the last two decades), who went on the have successful careers.

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For those arguing that VG is a bust and ganging up on Bit over it....what do you want Bit to say?

I think his argument is fair. Its too early to call VG a full on bust. Why is he wrong and why cant he have that opinion?

That opinion is fine. Problem is that it extends to thinking that VG was a mistaken, or being unhappy with VG.

Bust is just a term, a simple way of saying something more complex. I doubt this whole conversation is about a term.

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To me it's the same thing that's happened to Greg Oden here in Portland.

Both of these guys were the biggest, fastest, strongest guys in the game. They just, with their raw ability, overpowered people and imposed their will against WEAKER opponents.

When you get to the pro's, those weaker opponents are weeded out for the most part. You still have to be a good enough athlete and talent to even be 2nd or 3rd string in the NFL. And when you never have to rely on technique and know-how to be good, when you are put on a more level playing field you just never catch up to guys who have worked on those things.

It's not that he forgot how to play ball, it's that he never bothered to learn the fundamentals. He just physically dominated people. That changes in the NFL. There are only a select few that can do that at the NFL level and VG is not one of those guys.

I agree with that but Greg Oden is 21! even younger than VG. FWIW oden suffered a very nasty injury but even then will a 21 year old with immense natural gifts get better at his job? The answer is probably he will. Let's be real I'd take Greg Oden on the knicks today.

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For those arguing that VG is a bust and ganging up on Bit over it....what do you want Bit to say?

I think his argument is fair. Its too early to call VG a full on bust. Why is he wrong and why cant he have that opinion?

Good point JIF in a normal situation when a player is not playing up to the potential you expect. But when you have a player like Vernon Gholston who has not done one single thing to warrant the arguement, Bit is going to take some hits for that arguement. I have yet to see a great tackle by this guy or even a few tackles in a row or even a really good tackle. Nothing this kid has done stands out in my mind other than one single play in a preseason game aganst players who probably didnt make an NFL roster and even that play was a free run at the QB nothing special there.

23 games and All Im asking for is one play that really sticks in your mind just one single play.

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For me, it's not that he's claiming it's to early to call Gholston a complete bust (because I happen to agree)... it's his assertion that there are players in recent history whose performance in their first 2 years was comparable (no top-10 picks in the last two decades), who went on the have successful careers.

How is his career that much different than Vernon Davis? if he changes teams, why can't he be Cedric Benson?

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maybe the difference is that I don't care about the sunk cost. top 10 who cares? I don't care that the Jets used a high pick or that they paid him alot of money. I don't care that there's a UDFA with 1 more sack than him on the roster.

And that would be fine if there wasn't a salary cap, but the cap hit the Jets would incur prevents them from cutting him in place of a more competent player. If Gholston was a UDFA, would he still be on the roster? Would he be ahead of Marques Murrell on the depth chart? You don't know, because the very fact that he was the #6 pick in the draft and signed for a ton of guaranteed money influences decisions.

All that matters is does this player have potential going forward? and the objective answer is yes. if he was cut tomorrow every 3-4 team in the league would put in a claim, for the same reasons the Jets drafted him. Because he's young, powerful, fast and raw. He might never get it all together but if he does... watch out.

Big difference in taking a flyer on a guy for a low salary and being stuck with a guy who is all potential, no results for the salary of the #6 pick in the draft...

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How is his career that much different than Vernon Davis? if he changes teams, why can't he be Cedric Benson?

Bit your using the wrong guys to make your point. Cedric benson had some really good games as a rookie. There is a reason the Bears let Jones go. he then had some bad times but so did his team for that matter. Cedric Benson is another bad example to make your arguement.

I really cant think of any players who were so terrible and I mean TERRIBLE their first 2 years then turned it around. Keep in mind with Vernon Gholston its not just a stat thing. His play on the field is just so bad its pathetic. Even in games when all he had to do was rush the passer he never gets close. Thats not a good thing Bit.

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How is his career that much different than Vernon Davis?

Vernon Davis flashed as a rookie. His first reception, in his first NFL game, was a 31-yard TD. In one play, he did more than Gholston has done to date. On top of that, he had 3 TD's in his first year, in which he missed 6 games due to a fracture in his leg.

He was good in his second year and regressed a little last year, but some of that was due to Martz and his offense not really incorporating the TE. I'd say he has been pretty decent thus far in 2009.

if he changes teams, why can't he be Cedric Benson?

Sadly, maybe that's what he needs... a wakeup call, a stiff kick in the *** to let him know that he can't get by on past accomplishments and big arms.

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For me, it's not that he's claiming it's to early to call Gholston a complete bust (because I happen to agree)... it's his assertion that there are players in recent history whose performance in their first 2 years was comparable (no top-10 picks in the last two decades), who went on the have successful careers.

Gotcha.

The only problem is, what can he use to defend himself from this barade? Most people use history or other examples to defend their position. I dont necessarily see a problem with using those examples.

Yes they are different, but the circumstances IMO doesnt really change the underlying principle which is, it is not completely out of the questions that VG can turn it around and hey maybe their situations werent the same, but check these guys out for example.

That opinion is fine. Problem is that it extends to thinking that VG was a mistaken, or being unhappy with VG.

Bust is just a term, a simple way of saying something more complex. I doubt this whole conversation is about a term.

FWIW, just reading from Bit's perspective, it really does look like its about the term. He's not comfortable with calling him a bust yet and he defends why. Whether you like his defense or not is your choice, but IMO they're valid, different, but valid.

From the bashers perspective, its seems more like, F VG he sucks and there is no defending how bad he sucks.

Good point JIF in a normal situation when a player is not playing up to the potential you expect. But when you have a player like Vernon Gholston who has not done one single thing to warrant the arguement, Bit is going to take some hits for that arguement. I have yet to see a great tackle by this guy or even a few tackles in a row or even a really good tackle. Nothing this kid has done stands out in my mind other than one single play in a preseason game aganst players who probably didnt make an NFL roster and even that play was a free run at the QB nothing special there.

23 games and All Im asking for is one play that really sticks in your mind just one single play.

Well, I'm not going to go this route with you because we've done it before. IMO, you and some others overall hatred toward the guy prevent you from seeing anything good he's done. Good being used very loosely here, ftr.

And while I dont see much to give me hope that VG can turn it around. He's definitely not as bad as some of you make him out to be. And the overall principle of this argument, doesnt really change the fact that 23 games into someones career, knowing he was project, knowing he had inept CS his rookie year and barely played, knowing he missed OTA's that season, knowing he is playing a different position then he did in college, knowing he's in his 2nd defense scheme in as many years in the league, and knowing that he has 2 very good players in front of him makes it really easy to agree with Bit on this debate. And I say that knowing that VG doesnt seem to be a very good Football player.

Get my point?

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The only problem is, what can he use to defend himself from this barade? Most people use history or other examples to defend their position. I dont necessarily see a problem with using those examples.

Yes they are different, but the circumstances IMO doesnt really change the underlying principle which is, it is not completely out of the questions that VG can turn it around and hey maybe their situations werent the same, but check these guys out for example.

You can't effectively prove your point that history can repeat itself by citing past events that are not at all parallels to the situation at hand.

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You can't effectively prove your point that history can repeat itself by citing past events that are not at all parallels to the situation at hand.

Ahhh, this beauty. Having a History degree, I often had to argue this. Believe you me, historians do this all the time.

Some times it works, other times it doesnt. In this case, there is enough similarity IMO to effectively make a point, because none of you are proving anything since we cant see into the future.

That said, Bit has effectively made a point in which the proof wont be available anytime soon.

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Ahhh, this beauty. Having a History degree, I often had to argue this. Believe you me, historians do this all the time.

Some times it works, other times it doesnt. In this case, there is enough similarity IMO to effectively make a point, because none of you are proving anything since we cant see into the future.

That said, Bit has effectively made a point in which the proof wont be available anytime soon.

Five sacks. Gholston will have five sacks this Sunday. DID I STUTTER?

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Ahhh, this beauty. Having a History degree, I often had to argue this. Believe you me, historians do this all the time.

Some times it works, other times it doesnt. In this case, there is enough similarity IMO to effectively make a point, because none of you are proving anything since we cant see into the future.

That said, Bit has effectively made a point in which the proof wont be available anytime soon.

Please, don't get into semantics... Change my statement to:

You can't effectively make a point that history can repeat itself...

There is nothing effective about claiming that hope is not lost for Gholston, because <insert name> didn't play at a Pro Bowl level in his first season - though he was more than competent and showed flashes of ability... something that Gholston has failed to do as a pro.

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Please, don't get into semantics... Change my statement to:

You can't effectively make a point that history can repeat itself...

There is nothing effective about claiming that hope is not lost for Gholston, because <insert name> didn't play at a Pro Bowl level in his first season - though he was more than competent and showed flashes of ability... something that Gholston has failed to do as a pro.

Why does everyone get upset when semantics are involved? This is like the 4th time that someone asked me not get into semantics.

Especailly considering this whole argument is revolved around semantics and the word bust.

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Why does everyone get upset when semantics are involved? This is like the 4th time that someone asked me not get into semantics.

Who's upset? You bolded a bunch words to make your flimsy point... I obviously realize, though I (mistakenly) used the word "prove", that you cannot predict future events.

Especailly considering this whole argument is revolved around semantics and the word bust.

My involvement has nothing to do with the use of the term "bust". I took umbrage with the shoddy examples bitonti was using to claim that Gholston is not a lost cause.

Again, I don't think all hope is lost, but you're talking about someone being worse than any other player of his position and draft status of the last two decades... it's unchartered territory, no different than an underclassman entering the NFL with less than 20 college starts and being anointed the teams starting QB in training camp.

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Bit your using the wrong guys to make your point. Cedric benson had some really good games as a rookie. There is a reason the Bears let Jones go. he then had some bad times but so did his team for that matter. Cedric Benson is another bad example to make your arguement.

I really cant think of any players who were so terrible and I mean TERRIBLE their first 2 years then turned it around. Keep in mind with Vernon Gholston its not just a stat thing. His play on the field is just so bad its pathetic. Even in games when all he had to do was rush the passer he never gets close. Thats not a good thing Bit.

benson blew,...what games were u watching

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benson blew,...what games were u watching

He averaged 4.1 YPC in each of his first 2 seasons and scored 6 TD's in his second year - the same number as teammate Thomas Jones, who had twice as many carries.

Benson played poorly in his only year as the #1 RB for the Bears, in which he averaged 3.4 YPC, but the team as a whole only averaged 3.1 YPC. Adrian Peterson didn't perform any better in the 5 games he started that season.

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Who's upset? You bolded a bunch words to make your flimsy point... I obviously realize, though I (mistakenly) used the word "prove", that you cannot predict future events.

My involvement has nothing to do with the use of the term "bust". I took umbrage with the shoddy examples bitonti was using to claim that Gholston is not a lost cause.

Again, I don't think all hope is lost, but you're talking about someone being worse than any other player of his position and draft status of the last two decades... it's unchartered territory, no different than an underclassman entering the NFL with less than 20 college starts and being anointed the teams starting QB in training camp.

I was kidding.

And my point was, how else is he suppossed to argue with 7 people calling him a moron for defending a player that he feels isnt a bust? He tried using example from what he's seen on the field, but people like to completely dismiss that because he doesnt look like Demarcus Ware.

FTR, some of the example are bad, but the over premise, I kind of get why he is going that route.

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All of those players, except Gholston, are at least on the field.

Chris Long had 4 sacks and a FF in his rookie year.

McFadden has 5 TDs thus far.

Dorsey has also put up better numbers and was a starter, unlike Gholston who doesn't see the field.

The names you put out only further prove how bad Gholston is. Because these guys are 'underperforming', but they're a significant improvement above what we've got.

You're wasting your time, Bit is a God when it comes to the draft you can't tell him he is even wrong, after all he has a website.

That fact that he brought up

Ricky Williams, Cedric Benson and VD shows he has no idea what the hell he is talking about.

And if VG played how C Long has been playing I'd have hope he could become a good player.

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He averaged 4.1 YPC in each of his first 2 seasons and scored 6 TD's in his second year - the same number as teammate Thomas Jones, who had twice as many carries.

Benson played poorly in his only year as the #1 RB for the Bears, in which he averaged 3.4 YPC, but the team as a whole only averaged 3.1 YPC. Adrian Peterson didn't perform any better in the 5 games he started that season.

benson was the 4th playa selected

he was cut..that should tell u how much he suked in Chitown

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benson was the 4th playa selected

he was cut..that should tell u how much he suked in Chitown

Benson was cut after ending the 2007 with another injury and being arrested twice... he wasn't good in 2007, but neither were any other RB's on the roster. His performance (or perceived lack thereof) in Chicago is overstated - and this is coming from someone who drafted his sorry *** as my RB2 in fantasy that season.

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Benson was cut after ending the 2007 with another injury and being arrested twice... he wasn't good in 2007, but neither were any other RB's on the roster. His performance (or perceived lack thereof) in Chicago is overstated - and this is coming from someone who drafted his sorry *** as my RB2 in fantasy that season.

chitown fans would label him a bust

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I agree with that but Greg Oden is 21! even younger than VG. FWIW oden suffered a very nasty injury but even then will a 21 year old with immense natural gifts get better at his job? The answer is probably he will. Let's be real I'd take Greg Oden on the knicks today.

Immense natural gifts don't mean sh-t when you have the knees of a 50-year-old. The fact that Durant's going to be one of the top 5 players in the league within 2 years compounds just how awful a choice that was.

The latter statement is absurd and really makes me question how much basketball you watch. Oden would fair about as well in D'Antoni's systen as Chris Wilcox did. That's about it. He gets up and down the court no faster than Curry does, and by no means is that a credit to Curry. Durant on the other hand, I might sacrfice a limb to get him on the Knicks.

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