Its Official..Even Rex cant fix 'The Ghoul'

[BroadwayJ667]

everyone knows I've been trying to support this guy, but he just hasn't done anything to warrant it anymore. The last fan of Gholston throws down his flag.

he would really have to do something special now for me to get back on the band wagon.

but i don't care I'm happy Justin Miller is back

[Vicious89x]

As you can see here, Gholston is remarkably consistant in his play making ability irregardless of the amount of snaps he sees.

It is exactly THIS kind of consistancy that this defense sorely lacks

FTMFW

[JiFtheOracle]

FTMFW

**** the man **** world???

[ZachEY]

**** the man **** world???

for the muthha fukkin win

[jason423]

I honestly think it's a different story with Oden. I think the will's there, but his body just can't hold up. He still shows flashes here and there, but I just don't think his body will follow where his mind wants to go, and the high volume of fouls only add to it. What set him apart at Ohio State was just how agile he was for a man that big, he might have had the best lateral movement in the paint that I've ever seen on a college center. And that's including Duncan and Shaq (though I never had the fortune of seeing Alcindor or Russell play). But you simply can't be a big man in the NBA and have knees this bad, you just can't.

Fwiw, he has looked pretty awesome this preseason. But I think every NBA fan is just waiting for this year's knee injury to hit. It's bound to happen sooner or later.

That might honestly wind up being the 2nd worst NBA Draft mistake ever when all is said and done. Portland would have guarenteed themselves at least 2 rings and probably more with a Durant/Roy/Aldridge trifecta. Durant is just an alien, scoring like that at will on NBA defenders at age 20 is absurd. Dude was 6th in the league in scoring last year with a .422% from the arc in his 2nd year. His 2nd year! At age 20!!

Its such a tough thing to pass up in the NBA when there is a player with size. At the time I thought Durant was the best prospect in the draft, but the facts are the big guys win rings and Durant was not going to have a growth spurt to reach the size of a Greg Oden. There was no way a team could pass him up unless he failed a physical. What made Durant so great to me was that he just showed so many tools at such a young age. I remember people going nuts that he could barely bench 185, but you get stronger over time. The fact is the guy could shoot, jump, handle, rebound, showed good range and eventually was going to grow into that body. The way the league was moving he was the perfect fit as he could project to potentially playing 4 spots on the floor in a pinch and be an offensive mismatch at every spot.

Oden was simply a man playing against boys in college. He was a 7 foot version of LeBron in terms of physical maturity, except Im not sure those same attributes than LeBron had in playing the 2 or 3 tranlsate the same way for a guy playing center in terms of advantages. Oden was going to have to work much harder to get the offensive putback baskets and flash to the post to get a quick dunk. Sadly I dont think we will ever get a chance to see what he could be. But maybe even with the bad knees he can have a career like an Arvydas Sabonis or Emeka Okafor, but in order to do that he has to change his game around to protect his knees as best he can.

[RutgersJetFan]

Its such a tough thing to pass up in the NBA when there is a player with size. At the time I thought Durant was the best prospect in the draft, but the facts are the big guys win rings and Durant was not going to have a growth spurt to reach the size of a Greg Oden. There was no way a team could pass him up unless he failed a physical. What made Durant so great to me was that he just showed so many tools at such a young age. I remember people going nuts that he could barely bench 185, but you get stronger over time. The fact is the guy could shoot, jump, handle, rebound, showed good range and eventually was going to grow into that body. The way the league was moving he was the perfect fit as he could project to potentially playing 4 spots on the floor in a pinch and be an offensive mismatch at every spot.

Oden was simply a man playing against boys in college. He was a 7 foot version of LeBron in terms of physical maturity, except Im not sure those same attributes than LeBron had in playing the 2 or 3 tranlsate the same way for a guy playing center in terms of advantages. Oden was going to have to work much harder to get the offensive putback baskets and flash to the post to get a quick dunk. Sadly I dont think we will ever get a chance to see what he could be. But maybe even with the bad knees he can have a career like an Arvydas Sabonis or Emeka Okafor, but in order to do that he has to change his game around to protect his knees as best he can.

See, the thing about Oden is that he just had never one of those "holy crap" games until the Nat'l Championship against Florida. I remember watching Ohio State more than enough times that year, and though the athletic ability was undoubtedly there (the way he patrolled the baseline was really a thing of beauty), he just never did anything before that game to make me think to myself; "it's all over, nobody's going to be able to guard this guy." You saw that with guys like Duncan and even Lebron's high school games early on. Guys who within 10 minutes of turning on the tube at any given night, you'd be able to make that type of assessment. You never got that with Oden with the exception of that one game. That was always my problem with him. Now his knees have him inevitably cursed to be the Bill Walton Part Deux.

Durant on the otherhand, total opposite. I had him ranked #1 by a country mile. I get the traditional logic behind big men, but let's be honest, Durant was the clear-cut better prospect at the time in terms of both talent and potential and the past 2 years have only reinforced this. His ceiling was higher then and it most certainly is now. I totally agree with picking the center if both are equal, but the only thing Oden had going for him was his position. Everyone got blinded by the false hope that he'd turn into David Robinson when the fact is that the best pure scoring prospect since Iverson was sitting there, ripe for the taking.

The reason I can rant for hours about this is because it pisses me off. Portland is a good organization with a great fan base and a legit superstar in Roy who's just begging for a legit wingman (though their roles would probably have been reversed in due time). And I love the lineup that OKC is putting together, but I just can't set aside what that owner did to Seattle. He completely Modell'd Sonics fans and you just know that seeing how good this kid is is just torture.

[RutgersJetFan]

By the way, I remember people going nuts about the bench press fiasco as well. A 19 year old kid...lol. The sheer absurdity of it in hindsight is almost insulting to any reasonably-minded person.

[JohnnyHector]

See, the thing about Oden is that he just had never one of those "holy crap" games until the Nat'l Championship against Florida. I remember watching Ohio State more than enough times that year, and though the athletic ability was undoubtedly there (the way he patrolled the baseline was really a thing of beauty), he just never did anything before that game to make me think to myself; "it's all over, nobody's going to be able to guard this guy." You saw that with guys like Duncan and even Lebron's high school games early on. Guys who within 10 minutes of turning on the tube at any given night, you'd be able to make that type of assessment. You never got that with Oden with the exception of that one game. That was always my problem with him. Now his knees have him inevitably cursed to be the Bill Walton Part Deux.

Durant on the otherhand, total opposite. I had him ranked #1 by a country mile. I get the traditional logic behind big men, but let's be honest, Durant was the clear-cut better prospect at the time in terms of both talent and potential and the past 2 years have only reinforced this. His ceiling was higher then and it most certainly is now. I totally agree with picking the center if both are equal, but the only thing Oden had going for him was his position. Everyone got blinded by the false hope that he'd turn into David Robinson when the fact is that the best pure scoring prospect since Iverson was sitting there, ripe for the taking.

The reason I can rant for hours about this is because it pisses me off. Portland is a good organization with a great fan base and a legit superstar in Roy who's just begging for a legit wingman (though their roles would probably have been reversed in due time). And I love the lineup that OKC is putting together, but I just can't set aside what that owner did to Seattle. He completely Modell'd Sonics fans and you just know that seeing how good this kid is is just torture.

Agreed... I think what makes the mistake in picking Oden even more egregious is that there are so few dominant centers in the league that you really don't need one to be competitive anymore. Dwight Howard is a freak, but it's not like you need the second coming of Bill Russell to stop him on offense.

The bench press thing also killed me with Durant... it's not like they were asking him to be a 3-technique DT.

[RutgersJetFan]

Agreed... I think what makes the mistake in picking Oden even more egregious is that there are so few dominant centers in the league that you really don't need one to be competitive anymore. Dwight Howard is a freak, but it's not like you need the second coming of Bill Russell to stop him on offense.

The bench press thing also killed me with Durant... it's not like they were asking him to be a 3-technique DT.

See, I'm not so sure I agree with the first point. Even taking into account that the league has gone from being a center's league to a point guard's league, every champ since the Bulls' run has had a pretty dominant big man in the middle. You certainly don't need one to be competitive per se, but I'll be damned if it still doesn't seem like the necessary piece to put it all together. You get a few of the all-time greats from this decade; Kobe, Pierce, Chauncey, Wade...none of those guys have been able to go the distance without an elite big man.

[Vicious89x]

I honestly think it's a different story with Oden. I think the will's there, but his body just can't hold up. He still shows flashes here and there, but I just don't think his body will follow where his mind wants to go, and the high volume of fouls only add to it. What set him apart at Ohio State was just how agile he was for a man that big, he might have had the best lateral movement in the paint that I've ever seen on a college center. And that's including Duncan and Shaq (though I never had the fortune of seeing Alcindor or Russell play). But you simply can't be a big man in the NBA and have knees this bad, you just can't.

Fwiw, he has looked pretty awesome this preseason. But I think every NBA fan is just waiting for this year's knee injury to hit. It's bound to happen sooner or later.

That might honestly wind up being the 2nd worst NBA Draft mistake ever when all is said and done. Portland would have guarenteed themselves at least 2 rings and probably more with a Durant/Roy/Aldridge trifecta. Durant is just an alien, scoring like that at will on NBA defenders at age 20 is absurd. Dude was 6th in the league in scoring last year with a .422% from the arc in his 2nd year. His 2nd year! At age 20!!

Actually last year a lot of people think he just didn't care anymore and it kind of showed in his demeanor. He just seemed so mopey, and a lot of the inside sources said that he had become a person in the locker room to avoid, in a locker room that was very tight knit. Granted this is all the media talking but it is what it is.

I pull for the Blazers cause I am here- but my heart lies with the Knicks. So it's kind of fun having an outsiders perspective on the team. Aldridge will continue to develop and he'll be a nice compliment to Roy. They desperately need a true point guard, although we'll see what happens with Andre Miller.

Oden is that final floating piece. If he stays healthy and realizes his potential the Blazers go from being a team with potential to a team in its championship window. They're just not physical enough and that's what Oden could bring to the table with his size and defense. But I've said it over and over again to Blazer fans here- not getting Durant is a disgusting mistake, Oden could be Sam Bowie v2.0.

/off-topic

[ZachEY]

To get back to football, I think it's worth mentioning that 23 YEAR OLD DEFENDER Aaron Curry has played 6 games in the NFL, started them all, has 37 tackles, 2 sacks, and 2 forced fumbles.

[Vicious89x]

To get back to football, I think it's worth mentioning that 23 YEAR OLD DEFENDER Aaron Curry has played 6 games in the NFL, started them all, has 37 tackles, 2 sacks, and 2 forced fumbles.

But he didn't hit David Carr helmet to helmet and show his raw power once.

2 sacks pffft whatever!

[Obrien2Toon]

got to give Bitonti credit at least. He is still backing him. There are a few people on this thread, not going to name names, that were saying how well he was playing just 5 weeks ago.

Looks like they jumped shipped. So Bitonti although you're obviously wrong, at least you're loyal.

[JohnnyHector]

See, I'm not so sure I agree with the first point. Even taking into account that the league has gone from being a center's league to a point guard's league, every champ since the Bulls' run has had a pretty dominant big man in the middle. You certainly don't need one to be competitive per se, but I'll be damned if it still doesn't seem like the necessary piece to put it all together. You get a few of the all-time greats from this decade; Kobe, Pierce, Chauncey, Wade...none of those guys have been able to go the distance without an elite big man.

You're talking about 11 seasons since the Bulls' last run - 8 of which were won by either Tim Duncan (yeah, he's a "power forward", but whatever) or Shaq. I'd say that skews the argument a bit...

The other 3 seasons? Rashweed/Okur, Kendrick Perkins, and Gasol. Of those guys, only Gasol was what you could consider elite during the championship run. While he was certainly an integral piece, Wallace's 13/8 wasn't a dominating performance.

[bitonti]

got to give Bitonti credit at least. He is still backing him. There are a few people on this thread, not going to name names, that were saying how well he was playing just 5 weeks ago.

Looks like they jumped shipped. So Bitonti although you're obviously wrong, at least you're loyal.

Im taking the long view.

[#27TheDominator]

got to give Bitonti credit at least. He is still backing him. There are a few people on this thread, not going to name names, that were saying how well he was playing just 5 weeks ago.

Looks like they jumped shipped. So Bitonti although you're obviously wrong, at least you're loyal.

I'm not jumping ship. IMO he has played poorly, but not horribly. Biggest disappointment is that he hasn't flashed much. I am SURE that if he were cut that he will land somewhere else. I honestly don't think Westerman has played any better, but that's not saying much.

[slats]

Im taking the long view.

That's why I'm holding onto my Enron stock, too.

[ZachEY]

I'm not jumping ship. IMO he has played poorly, but not horribly. Biggest disappointment is that he hasn't flashed much. I am SURE that if he were cut that he will land somewhere else. I honestly don't think Westerman has played any better, but that's not saying much.

If he were cut, of course he would land somewhere now. Difference is, it'd be a 0 risk proposition, as he would get a near minimum deal. You think anyone would hand him a big contract.

Barring a major turn around, Jets cut him after one more season, accept their losses, and then some other team signs him to an low level contract with some incentives, and if he doesn't pan out in his first year there, he's out of the league.

[#27TheDominator]

If he were cut, of course he would land somewhere now. Difference is, it'd be a 0 risk proposition, as he would get a near minimum deal. You think anyone would hand him a big contract.

Barring a major turn around, Jets cut him after one more season, accept their losses, and then some other team signs him to an low level contract with some incentives, and if he doesn't pan out in his first year there, he's out of the league.

I know that it's obvious he'd land somewhere. My point is that too many people here can't fathom that. The scenario you posted would be his worst case because it seems that he isn't the sharpest knife in the drawer and having a fourth DC in five years would probably cause him to wander around aimlessly again. He did show improvement compared to last season, but the bar was really low.

[jason423]

See, I'm not so sure I agree with the first point. Even taking into account that the league has gone from being a center's league to a point guard's league, every champ since the Bulls' run has had a pretty dominant big man in the middle. You certainly don't need one to be competitive per se, but I'll be damned if it still doesn't seem like the necessary piece to put it all together. You get a few of the all-time greats from this decade; Kobe, Pierce, Chauncey, Wade...none of those guys have been able to go the distance without an elite big man.

That's why I knew and everyone else knew that Oden was going to be the first pick in the draft. The facts are for the most part, the dominant center is what gets it done in the playoffs and wins a title. Duncan, Shaq, Olajuwon...What makes them so important is because when you go on a drought offensively these guys are there for a quick 2 that slows the tempo down and staggers another teams momentum. If they can play with their back to the basket they also eat up fouls from almost everyone on the court because they command the double team. Defensively they intimidate and they keep teams from getting the easy putback off an offensive rebound. There was no PG better than Jason Kidd in NJ, but that team just used to go in the crapper once you slowed down the fast break. That is why Thorn was desperate to bring in a big guy. Look at LA. There is no player on the planet better than Kobe Bryant yet they went out and brought in Gasol. Unless you are one of the top 10 of all time type great (Jordan) you are not winning in a league that has a dominant big guy. Maybe if the bigs all disappear you will, but as long as they exist its tough to pass up the chance to get the next good big.

[JohnnyHector]

That's why I knew and everyone else knew that Oden was going to be the first pick in the draft. The facts are for the most part, the dominant center is what gets it done in the playoffs and wins a title. Duncan, Shaq, Olajuwon...What makes them so important is because when you go on a drought offensively these guys are there for a quick 2 that slows the tempo down and staggers another teams momentum. If they can play with their back to the basket they also eat up fouls from almost everyone on the court because they command the double team. Defensively they intimidate and they keep teams from getting the easy putback off an offensive rebound. There was no PG better than Jason Kidd in NJ, but that team just used to go in the crapper once you slowed down the fast break. That is why Thorn was desperate to bring in a big guy. Look at LA. There is no player on the planet better than Kobe Bryant yet they went out and brought in Gasol. Unless you are one of the top 10 of all time type great (Jordan) you are not winning in a league that has a dominant big guy. Maybe if the bigs all disappear you will, but as long as they exist its tough to pass up the chance to get the next good big.

Leading up to that draft, I figured Oden would go first, though I didn't agree with the choice. You cite three great big men, but the major difference being that Oden was nowhere near as polished, nor did he prove anything close to what Duncan, Shaq, or Olajuwon did in college to consider him to be the shoo-in that the other 3 were when they were selected #1 overall.

Don't get me wrong, I'm pro-big man, being that I've always played PF/C... I just don't think Oden's upside was anywhere near Durant's, nor was he a "safe" enough pick to justify passing on the much better talent.

[RutgersJetFan]

The other 3 seasons? Rashweed/Okur, Kendrick Perkins, and Gasol. Of those guys, only Gasol was what you could consider elite during the championship run. While he was certainly an integral piece, Wallace's 13/8 wasn't a dominating performance.

Oh man, I totally disagree. Wallace was certainly an elite center at the time of that Pistons run and is probably 2nd only to Duncan in terms of guys who were able to guard Shaq in his prime.

[JohnnyHector]

Oh man, I totally disagree. Wallace was certainly an elite center at the time of that Pistons run and is probably 2nd only to Duncan in terms of guys who were able to guard Shaq in his prime.

Yeah, after typing and reading that, I kind of hoped I'd be able to sneak it in. He really was the missing piece for that team, but admitting that would mean that I was left with Kendrick Perkins as my lone exception.

[RutgersJetFan]

That's why I knew and everyone else knew that Oden was going to be the first pick in the draft. The facts are for the most part, the dominant center is what gets it done in the playoffs and wins a title. Duncan, Shaq, Olajuwon...What makes them so important is because when you go on a drought offensively these guys are there for a quick 2 that slows the tempo down and staggers another teams momentum. If they can play with their back to the basket they also eat up fouls from almost everyone on the court because they command the double team. Defensively they intimidate and they keep teams from getting the easy putback off an offensive rebound. There was no PG better than Jason Kidd in NJ, but that team just used to go in the crapper once you slowed down the fast break. That is why Thorn was desperate to bring in a big guy. Look at LA. There is no player on the planet better than Kobe Bryant yet they went out and brought in Gasol. Unless you are one of the top 10 of all time type great (Jordan) you are not winning in a league that has a dominant big guy. Maybe if the bigs all disappear you will, but as long as they exist its tough to pass up the chance to get the next good big.

I think he hadn't even solidified it until that Florida game though. That was always my problem with him. He never consistently wowed me from night to night. I just never saw any reason to put him on the same level of any of those prospects outside of one game. Natural ability and the ability to dominate are two different things when it comes to that position. A guy like Shaq you just knew would be unguardable the second you saw him at LSU in any game. Can't say the same for Oden, it was just blind hope based on his body and agility for that size.

[RutgersJetFan]

Yeah, after typing and reading that, I kind of hoped I'd be able to sneak it in. He really was the missing piece for that team, but admitting that would mean that I was left with Kendrick Perkins as my lone exception.

Yeah, but even with that Celts team, Garnett still qualifies in the same sense that Duncan does. Not a full-time 5 but handles enough of the responsibilities in the paint that you can throw him in there.

[jason423]

Leading up to that draft, I figured Oden would go first, though I didn't agree with the choice. You cite three great big men, but the major difference being that Oden was nowhere near as polished, nor did he prove anything close to what Duncan, Shaq, or Olajuwon did in college to consider him to be the shoo-in that the other 3 were when they were selected #1 overall.

Don't get me wrong, I'm pro-big man, being that I've always played PF/C... I just don't think Oden's upside was anywhere near Durant's, nor was he a "safe" enough pick to justify passing on the much better talent.

But I think you have to consider how much the NBA draft process changed after Garnett proved you could make the jump from high school and be a good player. Oden was deemed to be number 1 from maybe his sophmore year in HS. Teams didnt care about polish. They just care about athletic potential in the NBA. Oden was ridiculously raw in college, but he showed the ability to be a great rebounder and alot of scouts throw college out the window because of the types of defenses he faced.

My guess if people looked a little closer that would have seen a guy that maybe at times is a little lazy considering his size, which really works against you in the NBA, and going to have issues with foul trouble. I just dont think you will ever see a GM pass up size in the NBA.

[Smashmouth]

The thread is over.

CTM is the winner.

He finally won at something and it turned out to be nothing.

[SouthernJet]

bump