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Maxman

How many WS will the Yankees win in a row this time?

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As long as Free Agency remains in baseball, the Yankees have a chance.

History shows us in baseball, if the playing field is leveled, the Yankees successes are eliminated.

Take for instance when the draft was instituted, the Yankees went through one of their more serious droughts.

Thankfully, for the Bombers, Free Agency was instituted, and shortly thereafter championships returned.

Voila! Although George did even mess that up for a time.

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Indicate where I said you were incorrect.

Fine, we are in agreement then.

At least the Yankees aren't using other teams as their "farm teams" as they did in the 50's. They ARE NOT blatantly skirting the rules as they did then.

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You should write a book.

The books have already been written, the facts are there.

Only 8 teams in the American League at the time and one of them was certainly a farm system for the Yankees.

Check the roster for the '61 Yankees sometime, and see where almost half those players came from on that roster.

Edited by Scott Dierking

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Dude I don't care. My favorite baseball team won the World Series this year. What went on 30 years before I was born means nothing to me.

And that is fine.

But trust me when I tell you that there are plenty of those young fans who do care (27!, 27!, 27!), who have no idea how slanted things were even then.

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Here's the sad part to me about this nonsensical argument. You act as if the Yankees have been doing something wrong, like they've been cheating or breaking some rule to make themselves good.

The Yankees were successful in the 30s, 40s and 50s because they were the first team to set up a national scouting network. The fact that you spin this as a negative is laughable as it revolutionized the game FOR THE BETTER.

The fact that you and your ilk constantly spin the Yankees wisely allocating their resources and having it result in success on the field as a bad thing is pathetic. They should be applauded for it, not demonized. This is America the last time I checked. The point is to win.

Ask the owners of the KC Royals if the Yankees are bad for baseball when his attendance increases by 30% whenever they come to town.

Over the last decade and a half, after returning from a strike/lockout that could have killed the game for good, baseball's attendance has soared to record levels and TV ratings are up across the board. How, exactly, are the Yankees "bad" for baseball when they've been the dominant team in that stretch?

They actually did cheat in the 50's or 60's..

How did they acquire Clete Boyer? ;)

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Scott this is a bit off topic but I am curious, do you have a small penis?

Please don't answer if you are not comfortable disclosing that information. Thanks either way.

How do you even know I am a man?

And, if I was a man, and had a small penis, wouldn't I look to become a fan of the Yankees, as some sort of compensation mechanism?

Edited by Scott Dierking

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He was traded to the Yanks as part of a 13 player deal in 1957 where the Yanks sent 7 players to the Kansas City A's in return for 6 players. OH FOR SHAME!!! Tha Yankees made a trade!!! I am shocked and appalled! :akf:

June 4, 1957: Sent by the Kansas City Athletics to the New York Yankees to complete an earlier deal made on February 19, 1957. The Kansas City Athletics sent players to be named later, Art Ditmar, Bobby Shantz, Jack McMahan, and Wayne Belardi to the New York Yankees for a player to be named later, Irv Noren, Milt Graff, Mickey McDermott, Tom Morgan, Rip Coleman, and Billy Hunter. The New York Yankees sent Jack Urban (April 5, 1957) to the Kansas City Athletics to complete the trade. The Kansas City Athletics sent Curt Roberts (April 4, 1957) and Clete Boyer (June 4, 1957) to the New York Yankees to complete the trade.

http://www.thebaseballpage.com/players/boyercl02.php

Those dirty underhanded bastards!!!! :rolleyes:

Do you know who advised the A's to draft Clete Boyer, and for what purposes?

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Here, Kleck, I will help you:

In John E. Peterson's book The Kansas City Athletics, A Baseball History 1954-1967 has a quote from the colorful Bill Veeck saying, "Until Arnold Johnson died, Kansas City was not an Independent Major League baseball team at all. It was nothing more than a loosely controlled Yankee farm club."

That statement, ladies and gentlemen, from the long term Chicago White Sox owner was the true reality of Kansas City Athletics baseball from the mid 1950s through the early 1960s. Out of the 238 players who played for both the A's and Yankees, a whopping 59 players were exchanged in a series of 16 trades lasting six years. Many of those deals heavily favored the Yankees with a few minor exceptions when the A's actually came out on top.

The roots of this story begins when a wealthy Chicago businessman and Yankee Stadium owner named Arnold Johnson won a fierce battle to purchase the Philadelphia A's from the cash strapped Mack family. In order for Johnson to complete his transaction to acquire the A's, he had to sell his stake in Yankee Stadium.

The A's, at that time, were largely a rundown club of mediocre players with little or no prospects and a bare boned farm system. With the help of his business associates, who were the Yankee co-owners, Del Webb, Dan Topping and Larry Mac Phail, Johnson procured Kansas City as the A's new home. Incidentally, Johnson also owned the Kansas City Blues Stadium, in which was a Yankee farm club for the 18 years prior to the sale.

The Yankees helped facilitate the A's move by giving the Kansas City territorial rights to Johnson and didn't even demand compensation because the Blues were an unprofitable club. Johnson did give the Yankees a sum of $57,000 to help them relocate their Triple-A team to Denver. Johnson then sold Blues Stadium to the City of Kansas City, who in turn, leased it back to Johnson and renamed it Kansas City Municipal Stadium, which became the A's new home. Coincidentally, Johnson had Yankees co-owner Del Webb's construction company rebuild the stadium in order to make it major league ready.

Now mind you, the Major League Baseball owners approved of all of this. Back then, club owners had gentleman agreements between clubs and the Yankees were the most powerful team in all of baseball. Not many people stood in their way. Most people believed Johnson's reasoning for buying the A's was more for investment purposes only and that he really didn't care about the fans in Kansas City. Most thought he'd buy the A's and then try to move them to a more lucrative market in Los Angeles. Also, this was a new time in baseball where people were buying teams, running them down on purpose and them sell them off for a profit. Whatever Johnson's motives were, only he knew, but his history of making horrible deals to weaken the A's leads to the possible conclusion that Johnson planned to run the team down and then move it.

Once Johnson solidified his hold on the A's, the trades with Yankees started off slowly. On March 30, 1955 the A's purchased veteran pitchers Ewell Blackwell, Tom Gorman and first basemen Dick Kryhoski from NY. Then the A's purchased pitcher Lou Sleater on April 28, 1955. The first actual trade occurred on May 11, 1955 when the A's dealt pitcher Sonny Dixon and cash for pitcher Johnny Sain and outfielder Enos Slaughter. The A's made a few more cash deals that season with the Tigers, Indians, Dodgers and Pirates.

In 1956, the A's made three more deals with Yankees, and in one of the deals, they sold their best hitter, outfielder Enos Slaughter, back to the Yankees on a waivers claim on August 25. The A's did score a coup against the Yankees on October 16 of that same year when they acquired outfielder Bob Cerv from the Yankees in a simple cash deal. Cerv went on to become an All Star in 1958, but the Yankees didn't quite forget that deal because they re-acquired Cerv back from the A's in 1960.

On February 19, 1957, the A's made one of their worst deals with the Yankees by shipping three of their best players, pitchers Bobby Shantz, Art Ditmar and bonus baby third baseman Clete Boyer, plus two minor leaguers, for a bunch of Yankee castoffs and older players. Some league officials accused the A's of signing Boyer to a minor league contract and protecting him for two years so they could send him to New York. The league rules for bonus babies back then meant that you had to protect them on your 40-man roster for two years in order for them not be drafted away in the Rule 5 Draft.

On June 15, 1957, the A's again traded one of their best hitters, first basemen Harry "Suitcase" Simpson and two other players for a Yankee brawler Billy Martin and pitching prospect Ralph Terry. Some baseball writers claimed the Yankees sent Terry to the A's so the Yankees could get more seasoning out of him in a non-pressure pitching environment and eventually reacquire him from the A's at a later date, which actually happened two years later.

In 1958, the A's made two more trades with the Yankees. In both of those deals, the A's shipped two of their best pitchers, Duke Maas and veteran Murry Dickson to the Yankees for their stretch run in 1958, receiving little or nothing in return. During the 1959 season, the A's made two of their worst deals to date with NY. On May 26 1959, the A's shipped future 20-game winner Ralph Terry and power-hitting third baseman Hector Lopez to NY for two old pitchers, Johnny Kucks and Tom Sturdivant, and second baseman Jerry Lumpe. Both Lopez and Terry were big contributors to the Yankees success.

On December 11, 1959, the A's traded slugging outfielder Roger Maris, shortstop Joe DeMaestri and first baseman Kent Hadley to NY in exchange for an elder outfielder Hank Bauer, another outfielder in Yankee manager Casey Stengel's dog house, Norm Siebern, and a sore-armed Don Larsen. Maris went on to hit 39 homers for NY in 1960 and broke Babe Ruth's single season homerun record with 61 in 1961 and won the MVP awards for both years.

The 1961 NY Yankees were considered one of the best team ever in baseball and the A's contributed 10 players to that club. Sadly, on March 10, 1960, A's owner Arnold Johnson died at the age of 53 of a brain aneurysm. Soon after, the deals to NY stopped for the A

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This doesn't even explain it that well... the Yankees liked Boyer, but the money it would take to sign him would mean that they'd have to keep him on the Major League roster for 2 years based on the Bonus Rule that had been instituted to keep teams from hoarding talent and stashing them in the minors.

Having a contending team and not wanting to waste a roster spot on a developing 18-year old, the Yankees (apparently) had the A's sign Boyer and keep him on the roster for 2 years. Then, just days before his required Major League service time was satisfied, he was sent to the Yankees as a "player to be named later" in a deal the teams had made 4 months earlier. Boyer then spent 3 years in the Yankees farm system before becoming their regular 3B in 1960.

The A's eventually admitted to this arrangement

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Wow. Now the whining is retroactive to trades back in the 50's and 60's.

If you choose to go through the world wearing blinders, that is fine. All we are doing is educating some that may want to learn.

If it offends your homeristic tendencies, we apologize.

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Your name is needle dick. the-waterboy-20090806010802718_640w.jpg

We get it ,we get it.

Yankee fans have big dicks through their association with their team, any other fans don't.

That has become apparent through today.

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Scott what has become apparent is that you hate the Yankees.

Back on topic, regardless of why, HOW many World Series will the Yankees win in a row?

I have never said otherwise.

I also understand now, that a select few don't want to hear that their team has had unfair advantages.

So be it.

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It's not education. It's one side of the the story.

You're wasting everyone's time. No one cares, except for the bitter few. It is akin to those still talking about Obama's true birthplace or the Florida recount in Bush's re-election. We've all heard the "waaaaa they spend too much money" B.S. and "waaaa, they took advantage" crap. It's been constantly refuted, so I'm not going to rehash it.

You know what the best part is for us? All of this constant whining just extends our Championship celebration. We love it. Absolutely eat it up.

So keep it coming. Please. We love it when people make themselves unwittingly look silly and bitter on behalf of their team because they know theirs will never compete with the history of success that this one has. I actually think all the joy of winning constantly might wane a bit if it weren't for all of the comical whining. So to the whiners and haters out there, thank you for keeping the feeling alive.

Guido, are you saying the A's WERE NOT on the take with the Yankees?

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I'm saying it has nothing to do with the 2009 World Champions or the topic of this thread. Not even remotely.

But keep whining about it. You're only inflating Yankee fans more.

So I guess the other thing I'm saying is "Thank you".

You are welcome.

Some of your kin have a strange way of acknowledging this.

BTW-Jet fans should never call Patriot fans cheats*, by this line of thinking.

Edited by Scott Dierking

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LOL.

And others would contend that the Yankees have won despite certain unfair advantages to them, i.e. the Luxury Tax.

With another $27 million of their own hard-earned money back in their own pockets this past offseason, instead of gifted to poorly managed teams like Pittsburgh, the Yankees may have been able to grab one or two more key free agents.

Two sides to every story, but you only want to see yours.

And we won't ask to be forgiven for having free market ideals.

You really believe the luxury tax evens the field? really? How naive are you.

Hey, this exists for the Mets, too. I have never said otherwise.

It is a poor, poor system of equality. And baseball likes that just fine.

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Cheating, huh? Guess you missed a key line from your own post:

"Now mind you, the Major League Baseball owners approved of all of this."

Yeah, just like the Pats. Didn't realize the 1st round pick and millions in fines they got were considered "approval" :rolleyes:

You think it is fair to have teams in cohorts? It isn't cheating if there is no penalty?

Do you believe some of the things you say?

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Again, I didn't say that. Stop puttings words in my mouth (or keyboard?).

I said the Luxury Tax is a disadvantage to the Yankees. Do you contend that it isn't?

Not a disadvantage that levels the field. It is a speed bump that they gladly fly through.

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Any owner can do what the Steinbrenners do.

Spend money to make money.

It was quite the other way around with how Steinbrenner did it.

"Any" owner is not in the NY market and has the ability to negotiate contracts with that leverage. That is a HUGE advantage.

Hey, give the Yanks credit. They are a brand and do it well.

But baseball history is littered with them taking advantages of systems, and what most would call cheating at times.

Notice that when the baseball draft was instituted, the Yankees had one of their longest droughts of success.

Thankfully, for them, free agency came up

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Yes because you started the day thinking that everyone wanted to hear this stuff. But now you realize people don't.

Keep it up and I am bringing madmike back. Box and one on Dierking, lol.

Max, I know for a fact that they DON'T want to hear it.

I am conditioned for that.

I will go back to the hole you prefer I stay.

I did get the satisfaction that you thought about my penis today.

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Thats not saying much.

You WISH the mets could have a drought like that.

Barton, at one time, baseball meant a lot to me and it was my passion of sports. To me, it truly is the best sport, if you break it down to its core essence.

I was as hardcore Mets as any Yankee fan on this board.

Now, I see the sport for what it is, and it is a total shill to the big market franchises. Actually, any sport is, it makes the sport more pertinent and meaningful, by their reckoning.

But baseball is the worst at it, and it has always been that way.

Do I follow the Mets with a fervent, still? Yes, of course. Bit that fire is tempered greatly because I know, even with all their ineptitude, the field is greatly slanted towards them.

Is that fun? Is that sport? Not so much in my mind. It takes away some of the pleasure when things are going well.

I fully realize this is only me talking and it is one opinion. But at least you know where I am coming from.

I wanted the scorched earth during the last strike.

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baseball needs a cap, eventually.

but its not the yankees fault.

I don't blame the Yankees. They can only play the game that is presented to them.

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:rl: What world do you live in? Come on.

What do you dispute?

Would you call, one team using another as it's own farm system to acquire players illegally and making lopsided trades, cheating?

I would love your definition?

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I can't wait for the cap, really looking forward to it. When the Yankees win the World Series that 1st year the haters will be scrambling. :-P

I will be the first to give mad props.

A cap alone doesn't do it. There has to be revenue sharing and a world draft. You would also have to develop a floor for salary.

Never gonna happen

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Then what is the point of bitching about it?

The rest of baseball needs to get with the program because the teams who refuse to spend anything on talent are more guilty of causing a disparity than any team in the top 10 in spending.

The commissioner needs to stop breaking his own rule and stop pocketing the luxury tax money the Yankees pay his Brewers.

You can't really tell how they spend their money.

What if, rather than just spending revenue received from the luxury tax, a team chose to invest that money in player development, rather than a free agent?

To me, that would be a smarter use of the money.

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This isnt a charity, its about winning. Free agents are much more of a sure thing than developing players. With the amount of pressure put on everyone to win this is what you get.

Your in la la land with this.

For every CC Sabathia in Free Agency, there are 5 Carl Pavanos. Those that never pan out.

And heck, why even discuss a CC Sabathia? A small club has no shot at that type.

For small clubs to thrive, they have do invest in their own development (Twins, Rays, etc), and hold on to their own as long as they can.

Is it a sure fire system? Of course not.

But it is hard for a small market team to blow their load on one player.

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That's just not true and you know it.

So what is better for a small market team:

Risk big money on one player, and hope that he pans out and singularly carries your team?

Or invest in a system that promotes scouting and development to feed the big league club with multiple players every few years?

History shows us it is the clubs that develop their own-Minn, Fla., Tampa, Milwaukee, that have had the successes.

I can't think of a small market team that was put over the top by a free agent signing.

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All those guys listed were not signed as free agents. There are some trades in there.

I recently heard someone, Jeff Nelson I think, talk about how the Yankees (players) knew Kevin Brown had nothing left when he was pitching in big spots for them.

Back on topic, small market teams don't have a real opportunity to sign big name free agents.

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Back on topic, I definitely think the Yankees will be favored to win it all next year.

The Yankees are back.

Yup, Free agency allows that.

We have done a complete circle

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I would love to listen to you tell your kids about the Yankees. Sitting in the food court at the mall chuckling as someone in Yankee gear walks by...it would be fun to watch.

My boys draw their own conclusions.

One does not care at all about baseball, the other hates the Yankees ;)

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You know Scotty, it's posters like you that make me stay away from posting...not because of facts (which you rarely have), but your ignorance of facts that you try to pass on to the younger Yankee fans that leads to pissing contests and heated debates.

You bring up the '61 Yankees...do you really want to go there? Let's start with that starting lineup group back then. The catcher at that time Elston Howard...home grown. Clete Boyer 3b, obtained from the A's 6 years earlier. Tony Kubek, SS...home grown. Bobby Richardson, 2b...home grown. Yogi Berra LF...homegrown. Mickey Mantle, cf...homegrown. Roger Maris, RF...obtained two years earlier from the A's. So, the only two not brought up from the Yankee farm system was Maris and Boyer...and like I mentioned above, Boyer had been already with the Yankees for 6 years. Go look up every team that played in '61 and see how many homegrown players they had in their starting nine. I'll throw in Whitey Ford as the ninth in my lineup since there was no DH back then. And say it Scotty...Whitey Ford was...ding, ding, ding...HOMEGROWN.

So, they had more "core" guys playing on that team then this current '09 team. You guys that want to contstanly bash the Yankees is becoming a hate thing more than a joke. Face it, they have 27 titles...Yogi has more rings then that Sux team combined that likes to think they are on the same plateau as the Yankees. And as far as your Mets go, are they even in the same town? And thank the good lord I've been on this earth for 16 of those 27.

And notice you rarely see Yankee fans stirring the pot of other teams or their fans unless they are prompted like I was today. Give it up already Scotty...at least I have one team that makes me proud...the Jets, not so much.

"Edit"...damn, old age is getting to me...the lightning rod coming off the bench that year...Johnny Blanchard....HOME ****ING GROWN!

10 players acquired from the A's in trades NS. Odd, huh?

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Dont tell scotty but the yankees had alot more homegrown players on their team then his phillies did.

And those home grown players couldn't get it done until a half billion was added in payroll with FA's this year.

Cashman should be executive of the year. It was very difficult knowing that CC Sabathia and Teixiera would actually help the club. And all the Yankees had to do was bid 40 mill more over the other clubs asking their services.

Tough gig.

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Come on Scotty, you're a better baseball observer than that. Yankee "core" players have won those WS titles back then...look it up. Show me a WS championship team that won strictly with homegrown players.

And there is nothing wrong with trades...all teams do it...the trick is to do it right. Some teams haven't mastered that technique..."Meet the Mets, greet the Mets..."

NS-would you say it is competitive, when one team uses another as a farm system, to stash players, make lopsided trades?

That's competitive?

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