2005 Final Win-Shares report

[Blackout]

for those of you who follow sabremetrics

The first number next to each player is batting WS, then we have fielding WS, and total WS. For pitchers, we have first batting WS, then pitching WS.

1 NL A Pujols STL 1B 36.3, 2.0, 38

2 AL A Rodriguez NYA 3B 33.3, 3.3, 37

3 NL D Lee CHN 1B 34.3, 3.0, 37

4 NL B Giles SD OF 32.3, 3.1, 35

5 AL M Ramirez BOS OF 30.9, 2.9, 34

6 NL J Bay PIT OF 30.4, 3.3, 34

7 AL G Sheffield NYA OF 30.5, 2.2, 33

8 AL M Teixeira TEX 1B 29.1, 3.3, 32

9 AL D Ortiz BOS 1B 31.4, 0.2, 32

10 NL C Delgado FLA 1B 30.2, 1.1, 31

11 NL J Kent LAN 2B 26.0, 4.3, 30

12 NL M Cabrera FLA OF 27.4, 2.2, 29

13 NL M Ensberg HOU 3B 24.6, 4.6, 29

14 NL J Edmonds STL OF 23.0, 5.5, 28

15 AL B Roberts BAL 2B 23.5, 5.0, 28

16 NL A Dunn CIN OF 26.5, 1.8, 28

17 NL B Abreu PHI OF 24.8, 3.7, 28

18 NL D Wright NYN 3B 23.1, 4.8, 28

19 NL D Eckstein STL SS 20.6, 7.0, 28

20 AL T Hafner CLE 1B 26.8, 0.0, 27

21 AL V Guerrero LAA OF 24.5, 2.3, 27

22 NL C Utley PHI 2B 22.1, 5.4, 27

23 AL M Young TEX SS 23.0, 4.5, 27

24 AL R Sexson SEA 1B 25.4, 1.6, 27

25 NL R Furcal ATL SS 18.6, 8.1, 27

26 NL D Willis FLA SP 0.7, 25.1, 26

27 NL T Helton COL 1B 23.6, 2.7, 26

28 NL C Floyd NYN OF 21.0, 4.9, 26

29 AL M Tejada BAL SS 20.0, 6.1, 26

30 NL P Burrell PHI OF 22.9, 3.2, 26

31 AL D Jeter NYA SS 19.6, 6.0, 26

32 NL R Clemens HOU SP -0.5, 25.5, 25

33 AL J Giambi NYA 1B 24.5, 0.6, 25

34 AL J Peralta CLE SS 17.0, 8.1, 25

35 AL H Matsui NYA OF 22.6, 2.6, 25

36 AL J Damon BOS OF 19.9, 5.7, 25

37 AL G Sizemore CLE OF 18.2, 6.4, 25

38 NL M Giles ATL 2B 19.0, 5.7, 25

39 AL J Lugo TB SS 18.6, 5.8, 24

40 AL P Konerko CHA 1B 21.5, 2.9, 24

41 NL B Clark MIL OF 16.5, 7.2, 24

42 NL C Lee MIL OF 19.7, 4.0, 24

43 AL I Suzuki SEA OF 19.6, 4.3, 24

44 AL M Buehrle CHA SP -0.1, 23.2, 23

45 AL J Santana MIN SP -0.5, 23.1, 23

46 AL J Mauer MIN C 13.7, 9.2, 23

47 NL T Glaus ARI 3B 19.6, 4.0, 23

48 NL A Jones ATL OF 17.6, 5.8, 23

49 NL C Beltran NYN OF 16.0, 7.2, 23

50 AL C Crawford TB OF 21.0, 2.2, 23

-Manny finishes better than Bigfoot

-Vlad's injury drops him down to 21

-A-rod is still better than Ortiz sabremetically

-51 home runs doesnt mean sh*t for Andruw Jones when you suck in close-and-late and RISP situations

[Blackout]

Top 25 MLB Starting Pitchers, listed by total Win Shares. The first number is batting WS, the second is pitching WS, and the third is total WS:

1 NL D Willis FLA SP 0.7 25.1 26

2 NL R Clemens HOU SP -0.5 25.5 25

3 AL M Buehrle CHA SP -0.1 23.2 23

4 AL J Santana MIN SP -0.5 23.1 23

5 NL A Pettitte HOU SP -2.4 24.4 22

6 NL R Oswalt HOU SP -1.3 23.2 22

7 AL J Garland CHA SP 0.3 21.1 21

8 NL B Webb ARI SP -3.2 22.8 19

9 NL C Zambrano CHN SP -0.1 19.5 19

10 AL B Colon LAA SP 0.3 19.2 19

11 AL J Contreras CHA SP -0.1 18.2 18

12 NL J Smoltz ATL SP -2.8 21.1 18

13 NL P Martinez NYN SP -2.9 21.1 18

14 NL C Carpenter STL SP -4.2 22.7 18

15 AL F Garcia CHA SP -0.6 18.6 18

16 AL K Rogers TEX SP 0.2 17.5 18

17 NL J Peavy SD SP -0.7 18.2 17

18 AL J Lackey LAA SP -0.5 17.2 17

19 AL R Halladay TOR SP -0.1 16.1 16

20 NL N Lowry SF SP 1.2 15.1 16

21 AL R Johnson NYA SP -0.6 16.4 16

22 AL T Wakefield BOS SP 0.1 16.1 16

23 AL J Washburn LAA SP -0.1 14.7 15

24 AL K Millwood CLE SP -0.1 15.3 15

25 AL D Haren OAK SP 0.2 14.3 15

Notice how Clemems has Dontrelle beat with pitching, but his hitting ability drops him while it propells Dontrelle to #1

[Blackout]

Top 20 Relief Pitchers, listed by total Win Shares. Once again, the first number is batting WS, and the second number is pitching WS:

1 AL M Rivera NYA RP 0.0 17.3 17

2 NL B Wagner PHI RP -0.1 15.8 16

3 NL D Turnbow MIL RP 0.0 13.7 14

4 AL J Nathan MIN RP 0.0 13.9 14

5 NL T Jones FLA RP 0.3 13.2 14

6 AL H Street OAK RP 0.0 13.3 13

7 AL M Timlin BOS RP 0.0 13.1 13

8 AL C Politte CHA RP 0.3 11.7 12

9 NL J Valverde ARI RP 0.0 11.8 12

10 NL S Linebrink SD RP 0.0 11.6 12

11 NL B Fuentes COL RP 0.0 11.8 12

12 NL B Lidge HOU RP 0.0 11.9 12

13 NL C Cordero WAS RP 0.0 11.8 12

14 AL D Hermanson CHA RP 0.0 11.6 12

15 AL S Shields LAA RP 0.0 12.2 12

16 AL B Ryan BAL RP 0.0 11.8 12

17 AL F Rodriguez LAA RP 0.0 11.2 11

18 AL J Duchschere OAK RP 0.0 10.6 11

19 AL B Howry CLE RP 0.0 9.7 10

20 AL J Crain MIN RP 0.0 10.1 10

no surprise at who's #1, but im surprised to see Lidge so low

[mbn007]

Top 20 Relief Pitchers, listed by total Win Shares. Once again, the first number is batting WS, and the second number is pitching WS:

1 AL M Rivera NYA RP 0.0 17.3 17

2 NL B Wagner PHI RP -0.1 15.8 16

3 NL D Turnbow MIL RP 0.0 13.7 14

4 AL J Nathan MIN RP 0.0 13.9 14

5 NL T Jones FLA RP 0.3 13.2 14

6 AL H Street OAK RP 0.0 13.3 13

7 AL M Timlin BOS RP 0.0 13.1 13

8 AL C Politte CHA RP 0.3 11.7 12

9 NL J Valverde ARI RP 0.0 11.8 12

10 NL S Linebrink SD RP 0.0 11.6 12

11 NL B Fuentes COL RP 0.0 11.8 12

12 NL B Lidge HOU RP 0.0 11.9 12

13 NL C Cordero WAS RP 0.0 11.8 12

14 AL D Hermanson CHA RP 0.0 11.6 12

15 AL S Shields LAA RP 0.0 12.2 12

16 AL B Ryan BAL RP 0.0 11.8 12

17 AL F Rodriguez LAA RP 0.0 11.2 11

18 AL J Duchschere OAK RP 0.0 10.6 11

19 AL B Howry CLE RP 0.0 9.7 10

20 AL J Crain MIN RP 0.0 10.1 10

no surprise at who's #1, but im surprised to see Lidge so low

Lidge and BJ Ryan. Both were near unhittable most of the season. I would have thought they would be much higher. In fact, I would have either one on my top 10 list of reliefers in the game.

This is one reason why I can't always go with this "Billy Beane" style of analyzing players.

[mbn007]

for those of you who follow sabremetrics

The first number next to each player is batting WS, then we have fielding WS, and total WS. For pitchers, we have first batting WS, then pitching WS.

1 NL A Pujols STL 1B 36.3, 2.0, 38

2 AL A Rodriguez NYA 3B 33.3, 3.3, 37

3 NL D Lee CHN 1B 34.3, 3.0, 37

4 NL B Giles SD OF 32.3, 3.1, 35

5 AL M Ramirez BOS OF 30.9, 2.9, 34

6 NL J Bay PIT OF 30.4, 3.3, 34

7 AL G Sheffield NYA OF 30.5, 2.2, 33

8 AL M Teixeira TEX 1B 29.1, 3.3, 32

9 AL D Ortiz BOS 1B 31.4, 0.2, 32

10 NL C Delgado FLA 1B 30.2, 1.1, 31

11 NL J Kent LAN 2B 26.0, 4.3, 30

12 NL M Cabrera FLA OF 27.4, 2.2, 29

13 NL M Ensberg HOU 3B 24.6, 4.6, 29

14 NL J Edmonds STL OF 23.0, 5.5, 28

15 AL B Roberts BAL 2B 23.5, 5.0, 28

16 NL A Dunn CIN OF 26.5, 1.8, 28

17 NL B Abreu PHI OF 24.8, 3.7, 28

18 NL D Wright NYN 3B 23.1, 4.8, 28

19 NL D Eckstein STL SS 20.6, 7.0, 28

20 AL T Hafner CLE 1B 26.8, 0.0, 27

21 AL V Guerrero LAA OF 24.5, 2.3, 27

22 NL C Utley PHI 2B 22.1, 5.4, 27

23 AL M Young TEX SS 23.0, 4.5, 27

24 AL R Sexson SEA 1B 25.4, 1.6, 27

25 NL R Furcal ATL SS 18.6, 8.1, 27

26 NL D Willis FLA SP 0.7, 25.1, 26

27 NL T Helton COL 1B 23.6, 2.7, 26

28 NL C Floyd NYN OF 21.0, 4.9, 26

29 AL M Tejada BAL SS 20.0, 6.1, 26

30 NL P Burrell PHI OF 22.9, 3.2, 26

31 AL D Jeter NYA SS 19.6, 6.0, 26

32 NL R Clemens HOU SP -0.5, 25.5, 25

33 AL J Giambi NYA 1B 24.5, 0.6, 25

34 AL J Peralta CLE SS 17.0, 8.1, 25

35 AL H Matsui NYA OF 22.6, 2.6, 25

36 AL J Damon BOS OF 19.9, 5.7, 25

37 AL G Sizemore CLE OF 18.2, 6.4, 25

38 NL M Giles ATL 2B 19.0, 5.7, 25

39 AL J Lugo TB SS 18.6, 5.8, 24

40 AL P Konerko CHA 1B 21.5, 2.9, 24

41 NL B Clark MIL OF 16.5, 7.2, 24

42 NL C Lee MIL OF 19.7, 4.0, 24

43 AL I Suzuki SEA OF 19.6, 4.3, 24

44 AL M Buehrle CHA SP -0.1, 23.2, 23

45 AL J Santana MIN SP -0.5, 23.1, 23

46 AL J Mauer MIN C 13.7, 9.2, 23

47 NL T Glaus ARI 3B 19.6, 4.0, 23

48 NL A Jones ATL OF 17.6, 5.8, 23

49 NL C Beltran NYN OF 16.0, 7.2, 23

50 AL C Crawford TB OF 21.0, 2.2, 23

-Manny finishes better than Bigfoot

-Vlad's injury drops him down to 21

-A-rod is still better than Ortiz sabremetically

-51 home runs doesnt mean Sh#t for Andruw Jones when you suck in close-and-late and RISP situations

Ortiz should be a negative in the field. No way he is even a 0.2. He had a couple of errors in 2005, and hardly played in the field. And A-Rod may win a Gold Glove, and only rates a 2.3??? Wright gets twice as high a score??? C'Mon, this isn't right.

[BlackLabelJetsFan]

Ortiz should be a negative in the field. No way he is even a 0.2. He had a couple of errors in 2005, and hardly played in the field. And A-Rod may win a Gold Glove, and only rates a 2.3??? Wright gets twice as high a score??? C'Mon, this isn't right.

Im no sabermatrician, but those that are will tell you that winning a Gold Glove is a highly subjective measure of a player.

There's really no right or wrong, win shares is just another number, useful for comparison, but not really a true measure of a player's talent. Here's a great site about it:

http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/2004-win-shares-have-arrived

There are three types of Win Shares: batting (which includes basestealing), fielding and pitching. Over an entire league, batters receive a little less than half of all Win Shares, and fielding and pitching receive slightly more than half. This will vary quite a bit for separate teams, depending on their relative strengths.

So everyday players tend to garner more Win Shares than pitchers, because they are credited with both batting and fielding Win Shares. Shortstops and catchers generally receive more fielding Win Shares than other positions, because they play more crucial fielding positions. Strikeout pitchers receive more Win Shares than pitchers who allow balls in play, because they don't depend on their fielders as much.

That's why we like the Win Shares system. It's simple and intuitive, and it allows you to compare players and pitchers across baseball history. Here are some other things to keep in mind about Win Shares.

Win Shares adjusts for contexts. For instance:

It adjusts for ballpark and conditions. A run is harder to score in Dodger Stadium than in Coors Field, so hitters receive more credit for what they accomplish in Dodger Stadium.

Fielding stats are adjusted for lefthanded and righthanded pitchers, as well as groundball and flyball pitching staffs. So Win Shares evens out the opportunities presented to fielders on the left side of the field vs. the right side, as well as infielders vs. outfielders.

Win Shares measures contribution, not true talent. If a player has a fluky year and hits, say, 50 home runs, he receives full credit for those home runs. The fact that he's never going to do it again doesn't matter.

Similarly, if a player hits well in the clutch, then Win Shares gives him credit for that, even if hitting in the clutch is not likely to be a consistent skill.

Ace relievers will receive credit for more Win Shares per inning pitched than a starting pitcher will. That's because the innings an ace reliever pitches (late and close) are more important than most of those pitched by a starter.

If a player plays for a team that happens to win a lot of games, he generally won't get credit for more Win Shares than if he had played for a lousy team. Win Shares is fair to all players, in that sense.

Having said that, a player will get credit for more Win Shares if his team happens to exceed its Pythagorean win/loss record. And vice versa.

Add these up, and you can see that Win Shares are a great player comparison tool. I like using them for Hall of Fame discussions, or MVP arguments. Also, they're good for contract evaluations. Conversely, they're not well-suited for evaluating a player's true talent, so they're also not good for forecasting a player's or team's future performance.

Good thread Blackout!