What is Dan Marino's legacy?

[Blackout]

He doesnt have one. Next question.

lol how so?

[jason423]

I think where you rate Marino depends on how much you value postseason success. Does postseason success simply add to greatness or is it the measure of greatness? If it is the measure of greatness than Marino is going to rank low. By the same measure Brady and Warner are far better than Manning. Aikman is on a different planet than Favre and almost any other QB.

I kind of think the postseason adds to it. The argument I always hear about Elway having two rings somehow being validation for him ranking at number 3 of all time is pretty ridiculous. Elway in 97 and 98 was basically playing the Trent Dilfer/Brad Johnson role. Elways postseason legacy was bringing all those teams to the Super Bowl in the 1980s not those two teams he just happened to be on in the late 1990s. I think that is enough to put him ahead of Marino. Even if he finished with just the losses on the resume his postseasons were so much better that he should be higher.

But how many playoff games did Marino lose in his prime that he was expected to win? Two? The Pats game in the 85 season and I think they were a favorite when they lost to Buffalo in one of the Bills SB years. These were not great teams he was on.

Of the guys I have seen alot of Id rate Marino at 3. Even with the lack of SBs and underdog type wins Id put him ahead of Manning and Brady. Hes behind Montana and Elway though.

[jason423]

That's just not true.

Baseball's an individual sport. It's like golf with teams. It's different. But even when talking about the all-time greats in that sport, how they performed on a championship level matters as far as their legacy is concerned.

But the legends in basketball and hockey are champions. Michael Jordan and Wayne Gretzky just aren't viewed the same way -no matter what kind of amazing numbers they put up- without the championships.

Marino's legacy will always be as a guy who should've been good enough to win a Super Bowl, but didn't.

Other than ripping on A-rod, you think people really care much in baseball? I think there are some pitchers who are judged on titles, but I dont think people really care much otherwise. Bonds sucked as a postseason player before the roid era, but even before the steroids I dont think anyone did not believe he was either the best or second best player (behind Griffey jr) of the era. I dont think Bonds' legacy would have ever been different had he won a title even if the steroid stuff never happened.

Basketball is always going to be judged by titles because its the one sport where one guy can simply dominate the entire game. I think that holds much more weight for a basketball star than a QB. I think its more important for a QB than a baseball guy because a baseball guy can be totally taken away while a QB can not. There are almost always a few points in a good career where a QB has that chance to have that special drive to cement a legacy. He also is the one position with the best chance to throw a game away when he plays poorly. I think its very close to a pitcher in baseball.

[Klecko73isGod]

I agree that Jordan and Gretzky's reputations were propelled by Championships. My point was that you don't often see players who are criticized for not winning a Champ.

Stat-compiling, non-SB-winning douchy prick.

[Mentos]

"The drive" was against Schotty's Browns for christ sakes. A game that shouldnt have even happened if it werent for Gastineau's dumb ass. If the Jets played the Broncos in the AFC Championship, they win that game....like they had beaten them a few weeks earlier.

Why would the Jets have won that game?

The game would have been in Denver. Including the divisional playoff win over NE, the Broncos were 8-1 at home that year. The Jets were a good road team, though (5-3 in regular season), but to say the Jets would have won the AFC Championship Game in Mile High Stadium is wild speculation.

The regular season game was played in New Jersey in October. It was not "a few weeks earlier". It was a few months earlier.

[Mentos]

But how many playoff games did Marino lose in his prime that he was expected to win? Two? The Pats game in the 85 season and I think they were a favorite when they lost to Buffalo in one of the Bills SB years. These were not great teams he was on.

I think there was one more- a playoff game from his rookie season.

In the Marino era, I believe these are the playoff games the Dolphins lost when they were favored to win-

1983 Divisional playoff: Seattle 27 @ Miami 20

1985 AFC Championship: New England 31 @ Miami 14

1992 AFC Championship: Buffalo 29 @ Miami 10

edit- I did overlook the "in his prime" qualifier, so you were basically correct when you wrote that Marino lost two playoff games in his prime when the Dolphins were favored

[Blackout]

Mentos....Was not Marino favored to win the Superbowl???

the 15-1 49ers were an underdog I believe

[Mentos]

[quote name='Blackout

[Blackout]

really? interesting

[TNJet]

A guy that was usually outdone by Ken O'brien?

[Mistalava]

The great Marino won exactly 0 more Super Bowls than Ken O'Brien. So what "legacy" are we talking about here?

[JoeWillie]

Not at all. Look at the numbers. What did Elway do that was so special?

Marino and Montana were the QB's of that generation. I'd even put Jim Kelly ahead of him. Elway is at the top of the second tier with Kosar and O'brien.

"The drive" was against Schotty's Browns for christ sakes. A game that shouldnt have even happened if it werent for Gastineau's dumb ass. If the Jets played the Broncos in the AFC Championship, they win that game....like they had beaten them a few weeks earlier.

Also, the year prior Elway got in on a gift Ernest Byner fumble.

The AFC at the time was the sacrificial lamb for the NFC. Once Elway played a real team he got embarrassed.

Elway is the most overrated QB of all time. And its ridiculous that because of TD that people are actually considering him the best ever.

The guy cried about being picked by the Colts. He was a panzy from day 1.

Good grief.

[Matt39]

Good grief.

Care to refute anything I said? Or just use smilies?

[Mentos]

[quote name='Blackout

[JoeWillie]

Care to refute anything I said? Or just use smilies?

Yeah, I'll refute.

Did you see Elway play in the 80's or are you just passing judgement by looking at a stat book like people do with Marino?

John Elway took a team that had no business being near a Super Bowl to 3 of them in 4 years.

And who were the great players he had around him on offense?

Sammy Winder?

Vance Johnson?

Geral Wilhite?

Mark Jackson?

Steve Jackson?

Ricky Nattiel?

Not a single Hall of Famer in the bunch ... not even a single All-Pro player in the bunch.

Jim Kelly had Thurman Thomas, Andre Reed, and James Lofton.

Joe Montana had Jerry Rice, John Taylor, and Roger Craig.

Troy Aikman had Emmitt Smith, Michael Irvin, and Jay Novacek.

Elway carried a slightly above average team to the Super Bowl in 3 out of 4 years basically by himself offensively.

And you put him on a par with Bernie Kosar and Ken O'Brien?

Dude, come back when you have a clue.

[Matt39]

Yeah, I'll refute.

Did you see Elway play in the 80's or are you just passing judgement by looking at a stat book like people do with Marino?

John Elway took a team that had no business being near a Super Bowl to 3 of them in 4 years.

And who were the great players he had around him on offense?

Sammy Winder?

Vance Johnson?

Geral Wilhite?

Mark Jackson?

Steve Jackson?

Ricky Nattiel?

Not a single Hall of Famer in the bunch ... not even a single All-Pro player in the bunch.

Jim Kelly had Thurman Thomas, Andre Reed, and James Lofton.

Joe Montana had Jerry Rice, John Taylor, and Roger Craig.

Troy Aikman had Emmitt Smith, Michael Irvin, and Jay Novacek.

Elway carried a slightly above average team to the Super Bowl in 3 out of 4 years basically by himself offensively.

And you put him on a par with Bernie Kosar and Ken O'Brien?

Dude, come back when you have a clue.

He played in the weak AFC and got embarrassed when he went up against an NFC team. He put up average numbers. He was a glorified Bernie Kosar.

Nobody put Elway in the same conversation with Joe and Dan until TD got him his rings.

86 Kosar 3854 yards/Elway 3485 yards

87 Kosar 3033 yards/Elway 3198 yards

88 Kosar hurt

89 Kosar 3533 yards/Elway 3051 yards

90 Kosar 2562 yards (missed 3 games)/Elway 3526 yards

91 Kosar 3487 yards/Elway 3253 yards

[StillerPaul]

Yeah, I'll refute.

Did you see Elway play in the 80's or are you just passing judgement by looking at a stat book like people do with Marino?

John Elway took a team that had no business being near a Super Bowl to 3 of them in 4 years.

And who were the great players he had around him on offense?

Sammy Winder?

Vance Johnson?

Geral Wilhite?

Mark Jackson?

Steve Jackson?

Ricky Nattiel?

Not a single Hall of Famer in the bunch ... not even a single All-Pro player in the bunch.

Jim Kelly had Thurman Thomas, Andre Reed, and James Lofton.

Joe Montana had Jerry Rice, John Taylor, and Roger Craig.

Troy Aikman had Emmitt Smith, Michael Irvin, and Jay Novacek.

Elway carried a slightly above average team to the Super Bowl in 3 out of 4 years basically by himself offensively.

And you put him on a par with Bernie Kosar and Ken O'Brien?

Dude, come back when you have a clue.

Good post. John Elway was certainly the best QB i've ever seen play.

[Matt39]

Good post. John Elway was certainly the best QB i've ever seen play.

Why? Because he could throw the ball really hard and far? His career passer rating is 79.

I never understood the Elway hype. Statistically speaking, he was a lot closer to Kosar and Obrien than Dan and Joe.

[StillerPaul]

Why? Because he could throw the ball really hard and far? His career passer rating is 79.

I never understood the Elway hype. Statistically speaking, he was a lot closer to Kosar and Obrien than Dan and Joe.

It's all a matter of personal opinion I guess. I just saw him as the most athletically gifted QB that i've ever seen. Dude played on an average team and in a weaker conference but got the most out of them imo. Put Kosar or Kelly on those Bronco teams and they don't get them that far IMO.

[JoeWillie]

He played in the weak AFC and got embarrassed when he went up against an NFC team. He put up average numbers. He was a glorified Bernie Kosar.

Nobody put Elway in the same conversation with Joe and Dan until TD got him his rings.

86 Kosar 3854 yards/Elway 3485 yards

87 Kosar 3033 yards/Elway 3198 yards

88 Kosar hurt

89 Kosar 3533 yards/Elway 3051 yards

90 Kosar 2562 yards (missed 3 games)/Elway 3526 yards

91 Kosar 3487 yards/Elway 3253 yards

Whatever, bro'.

If you think Bernie Kosar is on a par with John Elway, then I'll just let your post stand for itself and let others judge because this argument is just too ridiculous for me to continue.

But if all you value are statistics, here's an important one you left out...

Super Bowls ...

John Elway - 5

Bernie Kosar - 0

[Matt39]

It's all a matter of personal opinion I guess. I just saw him as the most athletically gifted QB that i've ever seen. Dude played on an average team and in a weaker conference but got the most out of them imo. Put Kosar or Kelly on those Bronco teams and they don't get them that far IMO.

Athletically gifted, I wouldnt argue. I just never understood the hype behind Elway. Terrell Davis put him in the GOAT conversation somehow. He went from lovable loser to possibly the greatest ever? Meh...I know stats never tell the whole story, but statistically he doesnt even have top 10 numbers.

[StillerPaul]

This is yet another debate where stats can be mis-leading.

That's why I don't care to use stats to debate/argue a players career. John Elway was surrounded with far less talent than alot of those other greats. Much easier to trust what my own eyes saw over stats.

[StillerPaul]

Athletically gifted, I wouldnt argue. I just never understood the hype behind Elway. Terrell Davis but him in the GOAT conversation somehow. He went from lovable loser to possible the greatest ever? Meh...

OK, TD did help him, no doubt. But what did Jim Kelly max out at with Thurman Thomas, Andre Reed et al,not to mention the very good Bills D back then.

Kosar had Mack, Byner, Slaughter, Brennan and a very good D as well.

Compare that to the cast surrounding Elway and I think you'll get where JoeWillie and myself are coming from.

[Matt39]

OK, TD did help him, no doubt. But what did Jim Kelly max out at with Thurman Thomas, Andre Reed et al,not to mention the very good Bills D back then.

Kosar had Mack, Byner, Slaughter, Brennan and a very good D as well.

Compare that to the cast surrounding Elway and I think you'll get where JoeWillie and myself are coming from.

Kelly had four Super Bowl appearances himself, if were going to use that. And he had similar relults to Elway. The sacrificial lamb to the NFC.

And TD at his best was a top 3 back I've ever seen play. His 98 season was the best ever, imo.

[JoeWillie]

This is yet another debate where stats can be mis-leading.

That's why I don't care to use stats to debate/argue a players career. John Elway was surrounded with far less talent than alot of those other greats. Much easier to trust what my own eyes saw over stats.

Bingo.

If you never saw a player play, especially in their prime, it's hard to comment on him because statistics can be interpreted in many different ways. A quarterback's career numbers can also be inflated or deflated by many things out of a player's control such as coaching philosophy, a team's style of play, the players around him, the era he played in, etc...

For example, it's interesting to think about what may have been different had Dan Marino played for a conservative coach like Dan Reeves in the mid' 80's while Elway played for the 80's Dolphins. It probably would have had drastic effects on both player's statistics.

Or if Marino would had been drafted by his hometown Steelers as was rumored. Perhaps his passing statsistics may not have been what they were because of the Smashouth Pittsburgh style, but maybe Danny Boy has a few rings instead.

Who knows?

All you can go by is what you see in a player by watching them play in the situation they're in, taking into account all the factors ... not just "stats" alone.

Dan Marino never won a Super Bowl, but I know by watching him play in his prime that there wasn't a QB I feared more with the game on the line in the 4th quarter than him.

Same with Elway.

Your eyes usually paint a different picture than statistics out of a book.

That's why I never compare players I saw to players I didn't see ... it's kind of silly.

[JoeWillie]

Kelly had four Super Bowl appearances himself, if were going to use that. And he had similar relults to Elway. The sacrificial lamb to the NFC.

And TD at his best was a top 3 back I've ever seen play. His 98 season was the best ever, imo.

And I thought Jim Kelly was a great QB ... very underrated.

But he was also surrounded by Hall of Famers on both sides of the ball that Elway never had and Elway won twice once he got another great player beside him in Terell Davis.

And let's not forget, Elway had a pretty darn good performance in his final Super Bowl ... threw for almost 340 yards that day and an 80 yard TD, so it wasn't all Davis in that game.

[Mentos]

Why? Because he could throw the ball really hard and far? His career passer rating is 79.

I never understood the Elway hype. Statistically speaking, he was a lot closer to Kosar and Obrien than Dan and Joe.

Elway was arguably the most athletically gifted QB. He played pretty much the first decade of his career with no true standout RBs, WRs, or TEs. He finally got a major weapon when Shannon Sharpe was drafted in 1990, though he didn't break out until 1992. In 1994, Denver signed Anthony Miller and he had a couple decent seasons there. Then they added Terrell Davis and Rod Smith and finally Elway had a number of weapons.

By 1987 Elway was one of the best QBs in the league. He was the Associated Press 2nd team All-Pro pick (Joe Montana was the 1st team pick). Elway received major acclaim well before Super Bowl 32 and 33 wins.

[Blackout]

one could argue Elway made T.D. too

[Matt39]

[quote name='Blackout

[Blackout]

how many superbowl appearances did TD win without Elway?

meanwhile Elway had been to 3 prior

[RutgersJetFan]

I think where you rate Marino depends on how much you value postseason success. Does postseason success simply add to greatness or is it the measure of greatness? If it is the measure of greatness than Marino is going to rank low. By the same measure Brady and Warner are far better than Manning. Aikman is on a different planet than Favre and almost any other QB.

I kind of think the postseason adds to it. The argument I always hear about Elway having two rings somehow being validation for him ranking at number 3 of all time is pretty ridiculous. Elway in 97 and 98 was basically playing the Trent Dilfer/Brad Johnson role. Elways postseason legacy was bringing all those teams to the Super Bowl in the 1980s not those two teams he just happened to be on in the late 1990s. I think that is enough to put him ahead of Marino. Even if he finished with just the losses on the resume his postseasons were so much better that he should be higher.

But how many playoff games did Marino lose in his prime that he was expected to win? Two? The Pats game in the 85 season and I think they were a favorite when they lost to Buffalo in one of the Bills SB years. These were not great teams he was on.

Of the guys I have seen alot of Id rate Marino at 3. Even with the lack of SBs and underdog type wins Id put him ahead of Manning and Brady. Hes behind Montana and Elway though.

Best post in what's turned into an insanely dumb thread.

[StillerPaul]

Best post in what's turned into an insanely dumb thread.

Why thank you. Some of us worked really hard to de-rail this sucker.

[GreenGoblin]

Marino was and is nothing more than a sh