Joe Klecko belongs in the Hall of fame, Plain and Simple- Bleacher Report

[DMaynard]

Calm down. I wasn't on your lawn.

[DMaynard]

I love Hill and think he is a more worthy candidate than Klecko who I think is a marginal candidate.

Bethea played almost his entire career in the merged league. He was drafted in 68.

Shaw played on a run oriented Bills team and I believe that's why he eventually got in. I agree with you about Hill who was a devestating run blocker but the Jets while a very good running team where essentially a passing team. While pass blocking was important pro football at least the majority of it was still essentially a running game. Hill may have been over looked because of it and he may have be intentionally slighted by his over powering performance in the SB which pissed off the establishment in pro football at the time.

That is a very good point that I did not think of.

It was also pretty impressive that Hill was switched to RT in the middle of his career out of necessity and did not miss a beat. I think he also played every game. I think we can all agree he had a pretty impressive career (even if he did have Kevin McHale shoulders).

[Mentos]

I think he also played every game. I think we can all agree he had a pretty impressive career (even if he did have Kevin McHale shoulders).

Hill missed one game in 1963.

He only played in 3 regular season games in 1977. I will not assume he missed the 11 other games. It is possible the Rams picked him up late in the 1977 season. It is possible that Hill was a training camp cut in 1977 and then was picked up late in the season after the Rams lost somebody to injury. In addition to the three regular season games, Hill played in the Rams-Vikings playoff game.

[Mentos]

Not being a finalist isn't exactly a criteria. The judgement of those idiots is what we're complaining about in the first place.

FWIW, I think Winston Hill retired before I was 10 years old and left the Jets when I was 8 and I still remember him. It's not from ESPN Classic either.

You can argue about their judgments till the cows come home, but these are not people who watch ESPN Classic and make their judgments off that. These guys were around the players and coaches. They watched many games, talked to personnel men around the league, talked to coaches, discussed players in meetings with other writers, etc. They are the folks chosen by the PFHOF to induct players and they are more qualified than anyone else. If Hall induction was left to players or coaches, then we'd see all kinds of crazy inductees. The Hall membership would likely be doubled because players would go overboard with the inductions.

Hill was never a consensus 1st-team All-Pro pick, so it is very tough for me to say he's the biggest Hall travesty.

[Mentos]

I stand by what I said. The fact that an o-lineman from the AFL has never been a finalist is not surprising. The dopes just discovered in the last few years who Billy Shaw and Elvin Bethea were. If you never saw Hill play, and are interested, I will be happy to enlighten you as to the specific reasons Hill was so great. Then you can give me the specifics of who you think is a greater travesty, and we can let the board judge.

First of all, the burden of proof lies with you. You made the statement, so you have to back it up.

I'll list for you a number of players. You'll have to show why each one of them is a worse candidate than Hill.

You wrote that no AFL offensive lineman has been a finalist. There are some offensive linemen who played the bulk of their career in the AFL and are enshrined in the Hall. Jim Otto, Ron Mix, and Billy Shaw are in. Jim Tyrer was a finalist in 1981.

Please show how all of these players are less deserving of Hall induction than Hill (note: most of these fellows have been Hall finalists)-

Ken Anderson

Erich Barnes

Al Blozis

Cris Carter

Charley Conerly

Richard Dent

Chris Doleman

Willie Galimore

Randy Gradishar

L.C. Greenwood

Rosey Grier

Ray Guy

Chris Hanburger

Cliff Harris

Lester Hayes

Chuck Howley

Claude Humphrey

Lee Roy Jordan

Jerry Kramer

Bob Kuechenberg

Eugene Lipscomb

Tommy Nobis

Jimmy Patton

Andre Reed

Johnny Robinson

Donnie Shell

Duke Slater

Mac Speedie

Ken Stabler

Dick Stanfel

Jim Tyrer

I'll stop there for now.

Hill was a very good player. That is obvious. Calling him the greatest Hall of Fame travesty is not obvious.

[Savage69]

You can argue about their judgments till the cows come home, but these are not people who watch ESPN Classic and make their judgments off that. These guys were around the players and coaches. They watched many games, talk to personnel men around the league, talked to coaches, discussed players in meetings with other writers, etc. They are the folks chosen by the PFHOF to induct players and they are more qualified than anyone else. If Hall induction was left to players or coaches, then we'd see all kinds of crazy inductees. The Hall membership would likely be doubled because players who go overboard with the inductions.

Hill was never a consensus 1st-team All-Pro pick, so it is very tough for me to say he's the biggest Hall travesty.

John Riggens made the HOF and made the Pro Bowl and 1st team All Pro just once.. W/R Chris Carter made 8 Pro Bowls a 2 1st team All Pro teams and isn't in.. Riggens showed up in big games and has a ring so the ring and post season play must make a difference..

[Mentos]

John Riggens made the HOF and made the Pro Bowl and 1st team All Pro just once.. W/R Chris Carter made 8 Pro Bowls a 2 1st team All Pro teams and isn't in.. Riggens showed up in big games and has a ring so the ring and post season play must make a difference..

It also depends upon who else was playing the position at the time. Ray Nitschke was only a 1-time Pro Bowler due to a logjam of excellent middle linebackers in the 1960s. We know Nitschke was great and deserves his spot in the Hall. I am not a slave to Pro Bowl and All-Pro honors.

In comes up in the Hill case, though, because while he was an 8-time All-Pro pick, it was mostly 2nd team honors by the various selecting organizations. He did get some 1st team looks, but not enough to ever be a consensus 1st teamer in any given year. Half his career was spent in what was considered a lesser league and this hurts him. Otto, Mix, and Shaw stood out more in the AFL. They were 1st team type of guys whereas Hill was not.