Traffic Ticket Question

[Bleedin Green]

Given some of the members of this board as well as a general interest in venting, I have a little story to share that other than jokes and mocking that are sure to come, also might hopefully get some sort of useful information.

So today I was driving to work and perhaps going just slightly over the speed limit, and get myself pulled over for the first time in my life. I'm polite and cooperative and when the officer asks me about my driving record I inform him its 100% clean, which it is. He leaves and when he returns he informs me that he "cut me a break" on the speeding ticket, and instead gave me a ticket for "following too closely", which was completely bogus, but who am I to argue with the guy when he's giving me a break, or so he says. I get to work and decide to look up the penalty for the ticket. The fine itself is negligible, which is great, but of course I wanted to look up the point value. And this is where this event turned from a minor inconvenience to making me furiously anger. As it turns out, the points for the statue I was given a ticket for is 5 points as opposed to the 2 points that would have accompanied the speeding ticket. Are you ****ing kidding me?!?

What the hell do I do about this? Obviously I can go to court and fight it, but outside of my word versus the officer's, what else can I really say? It has me absolutely beside myself and I really can't concentrate on anything at this. Be it work or whatever. All I keep thinking about how ridiculous this is and if I get hit with 5 points I am so beyond screwed, as I'd likely be unable to afford my car insurance which means goodbye to my car and my job (although that wouldn't be the worst thing in the world). This is seriously un-****ing-believable.

[CTM]

Given some of the members of this board as well as a general interest in venting, I have a little story to share that other than jokes and mocking that are sure to come, also might hopefully get some sort of useful information.

So today I was driving to work and perhaps going just slightly over the speed limit, and get myself pulled over for the first time in my life. I'm polite and cooperative and when the officer asks me about my driving record I inform him its 100% clean, which it is. He leaves and when he returns he informs me that he "cut me a break" on the speeding ticket, and instead gave me a ticket for "following too closely", which was completely bogus, but who am I to argue with the guy when he's giving me a break, or so he says. I get to work and decide to look up the penalty for the ticket. The fine itself is negligible, which is great, but of course I wanted to look up the point value. And this is where this event turned from a minor inconvenience to making me furiously anger. As it turns out, the points for the statue I was given a ticket for is 5 points as opposed to the 2 points that would have accompanied the speeding ticket. Are you ****ing kidding me?!?

What the hell do I do about this? Obviously I can go to court and fight it, but outside of my word versus the officer's, what else can I really say? It has me absolutely beside myself and I really can't concentrate on anything at this. Be it work or whatever. All I keep thinking about how ridiculous this is and if I get hit with 5 points I am so beyond screwed, as I'd likely be unable to afford my car insurance which means goodbye to my car and my job (although that wouldn't be the worst thing in the world). This is seriously un-****ing-believable.

tickets are reduced in court all the time. A lot of times the officer won't even show up and the prosecutor will make a deal with you directly or with your lawyer.

[Green DNA]

Take a 3 hour driving class and you will get 4 points knocked off your record for insurance purposes (but not driving record purposes). It is well worth it.

[Bleedin Green]

tickets are reduced in court all the time. A lot of times the officer won't even show up and the prosecutor will make a deal with you directly or with your lawyer.

While I know this, I fully expect to get absolutely no deal or reduction whatsoever. For no other reason than the fact that its just the way my life works. Yeah, I'm a real optimist.

Take a 3 hour driving class and you will get 4 points knocked off your record for insurance purposes (but not driving record purposes). It is well worth it.

That's definitely good. The insurance issue is by far the biggest problem for me, because I can't even imagine what kind of cost increase I'd be looking at, and frankly I doubt I'd be able to afford it. I'm not overly worried about the points on my driving record given that prior to today I had 0.

[PatriotReign37]

Play the game and hire a lawyer if the prosecutor wont deal directly with you.

[DHJF]

[ZachEY]

Did you contact the court for the 5 pt information, or did you get it on the internet.

Not to say the web is definitely wrong, but I wouldn't trust for something of this magnitude.

There's a joke in there somewhere, did you catch it?

[Max'sDroid]

Did you contact the court for the 5 pt information, or did you get it on the internet.

Not to say the web is definitely wrong, but I wouldn't trust for something of this magnitude.

There's a joke in there somewhere, did you catch it?

Google is never wrong.

[Akhilesh Babaganoush]

Google is never wrong.

Incorrect. Keep waiting for Skynet to go online. My people will never let it happen.

[Bleedin Green]

Did you contact the court for the 5 pt information, or did you get it on the internet.

Not to say the web is definitely wrong, but I wouldn't trust for something of this magnitude.

There's a joke in there somewhere, did you catch it?

From the internet, but its directly from the NJ MVC website for the corresponding statute, so I would imagine its fairly accurate. I'm going to have to wait until the ticket actually gets into the system to talk to anyone about it, but I'm not nearly that patient.

[Aten]

Play the game and hire a lawyer if the prosecutor wont deal directly with you.

I spend a fair amount of time cleaning up pro se litigants' messes and I very rarely advise anybody not to bother with representation, but it's not going to do him a whole lot of good here. Lawyering up only gets you leeway to the extent that it makes things easier for the judge and opposing counsel. If the matter involves substantial litigation, retaining counsel will get you a break because it spares them from, e.g., having to read and respond to ridiculous filings in pidgin legalese. Hiring a lawyer over a non-DUI traffic case doesn't really simplify anything for anybody. Just go in, see if you can get a deal, and if all else fails take the class.

[slats]

Not sure about the courts in NJ. In NY, it's different from county to county. In Nassau, I can make deals. In Suffolk, it's pretty much guilty or not.

I'd say if you can make a deal, make one. With your driving record, that shouldn't be difficult. If no one's cutting you a deal, plead innocent. They'll adjourn if the officer isn't there. If you come back a couple times and the officer never shows, they'll throw it out eventually. Time consuming, but worth it. Especially if you're looking at 5 points.

[The Gun Of Bavaria]

Given some of the members of this board as well as a general interest in venting, I have a little story to share that other than jokes and mocking that are sure to come, also might hopefully get some sort of useful information.

So today I was driving to work and perhaps going just slightly over the speed limit, and get myself pulled over for the first time in my life. I'm polite and cooperative and when the officer asks me about my driving record I inform him its 100% clean, which it is. He leaves and when he returns he informs me that he "cut me a break" on the speeding ticket, and instead gave me a ticket for "following too closely", which was completely bogus, but who am I to argue with the guy when he's giving me a break, or so he says. I get to work and decide to look up the penalty for the ticket. The fine itself is negligible, which is great, but of course I wanted to look up the point value. And this is where this event turned from a minor inconvenience to making me furiously anger. As it turns out, the points for the statue I was given a ticket for is 5 points as opposed to the 2 points that would have accompanied the speeding ticket. Are you ****ing kidding me?!?

What the hell do I do about this? Obviously I can go to court and fight it, but outside of my word versus the officer's, what else can I really say? It has me absolutely beside myself and I really can't concentrate on anything at this. Be it work or whatever. All I keep thinking about how ridiculous this is and if I get hit with 5 points I am so beyond screwed, as I'd likely be unable to afford my car insurance which means goodbye to my car and my job (although that wouldn't be the worst thing in the world). This is seriously un-****ing-believable.

I'll give you my perspective from Michigan so remember it's based on our laws, not your state's.

When I worked the road I used to do something similar to this all the time. If I pulled someone over for something small like speeding or pushing a red light and they had a clean record, I would usually either give them a verbal warning, or when I knew I needed a few to "maintain my performance standard", a/k/a my unofficial official ticket quota, I would write them for Sudden Acceleration. Yes, much like your Following Too Closely ticket, that is not what the person did, but i wrote it because it was 0 points and does not post on the driving record. My guess is that this is what the officer intended, but who knows.

First thing is don't go nuts too fast. If you go to court or call the station to complain, all the officer will do is simply amend the ticket back to the original charge. As weird as it seems, I've given people breaks before and they've made such a scene, that I've amended 0 point tickets back to their original 4 point tickets. Instead of walking out of there with a small fine and no one besides us and the court knowing, now their insurance company is getting a nice little letter.

Let's look at a couple angles for you to pursue.

1. Call the court and confirm the fine and points penalty. I'm telling you right now, 5 points for following too closely is ridiculously high in my mind and just doesn't sound right at all. Other than , Reckless, Drunk or Suspended Driving, there isn't a single traffic ticket I can write you over 4 points in the ENTIRE state of Michigan, unless you're in a Construction Zone. Hell, Carless Driving in Michigan is only 3points.

2. Call the officer at work. Now be careful here, don't want to be a dick to the guy who thought he just gave you a break. If you find out that the following too closely ticket is really 5 points, share your concern with the officer about the point differential. Say it diplomatically, something along the lines of "I really appreciate the fact you have me a break, but the points are double my original speeding. Is it supposed to be like that?"

3. Set a court date. If you confirm that the ticket is actually 5 points and you're unable to get a hold of the officer, ask for a court date. Not sure how it works in your state, but ask for an Informal Hearing or whatever it's called in your location where it's just you, the officer & the judge/magistrate. When it starts, they will typically ask you how you plead and if it's anything like in Michigan, you can plead 'guilty with an explanation'. When he asks you what your explanation is, say something to effect of "Sir, I admit I was speeding and make no excuses for it. The officer intended to give me a break on the road by writing me for following too closely and while I greatly appreciate his break, I'm only concerned because the points for my current violation are significantly higher than the original. Given my excellent driving record and the fact that this is my first violation, I respectfully ask that the court consider this and amend the charge to something with less of a point impact on my license" If you walk in there and say what the cop did was BS, and go off on some tangent you'll lose. If you walk in there and claim you weren't speeding, you'll lose.

There's my for what it's worth. I still don't think a 5 point violation was the officer's intent, so make sure you double check everything and making a friendly, professional call to the officer can't hurt at all to clarify stuff.

[Bleedin Green]

I'll give you my perspective from Michigan so remember it's based on our laws, not your state's.

When I worked the road I used to do something similar to this all the time. If I pulled someone over for something small like speeding or pushing a red light and they had a clean record, I would usually either give them a verbal warning, or when I knew I needed a few to "maintain my performance standard", a/k/a my unofficial official ticket quota, I would write them for Sudden Acceleration. Yes, much like your Following Too Closely ticket, that is not what the person did, but i wrote it because it was 0 points and does not post on the driving record. My guess is that this is what the officer intended, but who knows.

First thing is don't go nuts too fast. If you go to court or call the station to complain, all the officer will do is simply amend the ticket back to the original charge. As weird as it seems, I've given people breaks before and they've made such a scene, that I've amended 0 point tickets back to their original 4 point tickets. Instead of walking out of there with a small fine and no one besides us and the court knowing, now their insurance company is getting a nice little letter.

Let's look at a couple angles for you to pursue.

1. Call the court and confirm the fine and points penalty. I'm telling you right now, 5 points for following too closely is ridiculously high in my mind and just doesn't sound right at all. Other than , Reckless, Drunk or Suspended Driving, there isn't a single traffic ticket I can write you over 4 points in the ENTIRE state of Michigan, unless you're in a Construction Zone. Hell, Carless Driving in Michigan is only 3points.

2. Call the officer at work. Now be careful here, don't want to be a dick to the guy who thought he just gave you a break. If you find out that the following too closely ticket is really 5 points, share your concern with the officer about the point differential. Say it diplomatically, something along the lines of "I really appreciate the fact you have me a break, but the points are double my original speeding. Is it supposed to be like that?"

3. Set a court date. If you confirm that the ticket is actually 5 points and you're unable to get a hold of the officer, ask for a court date. Not sure how it works in your state, but ask for an Informal Hearing or whatever it's called in your location where it's just you, the officer & the judge/magistrate. When it starts, they will typically ask you how you plead and if it's anything like in Michigan, you can plead 'guilty with an explanation'. When he asks you what your explanation is, say something to effect of "Sir, I admit I was speeding and make no excuses for it. The officer intended to give me a break on the road by writing me for following too closely and while I greatly appreciate his break, I'm only concerned because the points for my current violation are significantly higher than the original. Given my excellent driving record and the fact that this is my first violation, I respectfully ask that the court consider this and amend the charge to something with less of a point impact on my license" If you walk in there and say what the cop did was BS, and go off on some tangent you'll lose. If you walk in there and claim you weren't speeding, you'll lose.

There's my for what it's worth. I still don't think a 5 point violation was the officer's intent, so make sure you double check everything and making a friendly, professional call to the officer can't hurt at all to clarify stuff.

Thanks man, really appreciate the help. And I absolutely won't be going off or catching any attitude when speaking to anyone about this. I don't even really feel compelled to, the situation is just frustrating and honestly its part of the reason I started this thread, just to blow off a little steam.

As messed up as seems, I agree that I still don't think that the guy was going out of his way to somehow screw me for no apparent reason and stick me with more points. I've got a clean record and wasn't even the least bit argumentative with him. I'll have to call and get it all worked out, but that's always the tough part for me. Anytime things like this come up I just want them taken care of as quickly as possible, but in a case like this its a waiting game (which I just hate) and there's not much I can do about that.

[Aten]

I still don't think a 5 point violation was the officer's intent

Bet? It's funny how being a cop obligates you to give them the benefit of the doubt whenever hilarity ensues. Any mechanic will tell you that most of them are crooks, any doctor will tell you that most of them are quacks, and I'll tell you that most lawyers are retards. It strikes me as kind of implausible that every instance of pigs gone wild can be ascribed to such an infinitessimal minority as you guys would have everybody believe.

[The Gun Of Bavaria]

Bet? It's funny how being a cop obligates you to give them the benefit of the doubt whenever hilarity ensues. Any mechanic will tell you that most of them are crooks, any doctor will tell you that most of them are quacks, and I'll tell you that most lawyers are retards. It strikes me as kind of implausible that every instance of pigs gone wild can be ascribed to such an infinitessimal minority as you guys would have everybody believe.

The percentage of idiots in my line of work is no greater than any other line of work. However, since doctors and mechanics don't issue tickets, the general consensus amongst those who find our line of work disgusting when it doesn't suit their own personal needs, is that we're some form of runaway profession hellbent on wreaking havoc with the general public. Breaking news: there are a lot of douchebag cops out there, but you know what, there are a lot of good ones too.

[The Gun Of Bavaria]

Thanks man, really appreciate the help. And I absolutely won't be going off or catching any attitude when speaking to anyone about this. I don't even really feel compelled to, the situation is just frustrating and honestly its part of the reason I started this thread, just to blow off a little steam.

As messed up as seems, I agree that I still don't think that the guy was going out of his way to somehow screw me for no apparent reason and stick me with more points. I've got a clean record and wasn't even the least bit argumentative with him. I'll have to call and get it all worked out, but that's always the tough part for me. Anytime things like this come up I just want them taken care of as quickly as possible, but in a case like this its a waiting game (which I just hate) and there's not much I can do about that.

Dude I got my first two tickets within 2 months of each other back in my previous career days. First one was 63/50 mph and the guy's break was a 10 over / 2 point ticket. Second was a prohibited turn ticket 2 months later. Asked me what my record was like, I said I had one, and he came back to tell me "Now you have two".

I smiled with great pride when I saw he was fired & charged for stealing property out of the property room a year later.

[CTM]

The percentage of idiots in my line of work is no greater than any other line of work. However, since doctors and mechanics don't issue tickets, the general consensus amongst those who find our line of work disgusting when it doesn't suit their own personal needs, is that we're some form of runaway profession hellbent on wreaking havoc with the general public. Breaking news: there are a lot of douchebag cops out there, but you know what, there are a lot of good ones too.

I'd say that about cops, mechanics and lawyers.. to be honest..

that being said, there are a ton of good cops, but also a ton of complete douches on power trips..

[The Crusher]

The percentage of idiots in my line of work is no greater than any other line of work. However, since doctors and mechanics don't issue tickets, the general consensus amongst those who find our line of work disgusting when it doesn't suit their own personal needs, is that we're some form of runaway profession hellbent on wreaking havoc with the general public. Breaking news: there are a lot of douchebag cops out there, but you know what, there are a lot of good ones too.

oooo, like officer sexy. At my sons school theirs this hot lady cop that makes sure non off the kids are diving out of their parents car before they get to the drop off zone. Last year some kid got hit coming out of his moms car on the curb and had his femur and pelvis smashed. Since then sexy lady cop has been out their.

[Aten]

The percentage of idiots in my line of work is no greater than any other line of work.

Idiots I'll concede. Authoritarian losers not so. Let's run my examples through your #2 above. If you take your car in for an oil change and come back to find it on blocks, do you have to preface asking the mechanic why this is so with groveling? What if the doctor sews your butt shut with a sponge inside?

[PatriotReign37]

I spend a fair amount of time cleaning up pro se litigants' messes and I very rarely advise anybody not to bother with representation, but it's not going to do him a whole lot of good here.

If he keeps it off his driving record it would - so his insurance does not increase.

If I cannot speak to the prosecutor, Id rather pay a Lawyer $100 plus court charges to make it a non moving violation. Most Lawyers that deal with that sort of stuff around here are in court every week anyway for the guy that nabbed last month. They get a stack of tickets and run them through at the same time.

[Scott Dierking]

Bet? It's funny how being a cop obligates you to give them the benefit of the doubt whenever hilarity ensues. Any mechanic will tell you that most of them are crooks, any doctor will tell you that most of them are quacks, and I'll tell you that most lawyers are retards. It strikes me as kind of implausible that every instance of pigs gone wild can be ascribed to such an infinitessimal minority as you guys would have everybody believe.

I have had several instances where cops have given me a break when I was dead to rights.

Painting with a broad brush does not work on any professional level.

I generally find that if you treat someone with respect, it is respect that you get back. of course, there are those instances where someone is gung ho, but that is the breaks.

[Bleedin Green]

Seriously... WHAT THE ****?!? So the saga continues...

To give you a little background for this most recent chapter, in order to park in Hoboken you need a parking permit. Which I have had since the day I moved into town. In February they sent me a renewal notice. The cost of renewal was $5. Simple enough. I gladly paid it and went along my merry way. Today I go to my car and what do I see? A ticket on my window for $68 for an expired parking permit, specifically stating "permit not renewed", which as you know by now, is inaccurate. Oh yes, and a boot on my car. Needless to say I call the number and while not in the best of moods, I am as pleasant as reasonably can be expected to the person I'm talking to. I explain the situation to her to the point she understands whats going on and says that as long as the Hoboken Parking Authority can confirm my renewal, then it can be taken care of.

The catch? Oh, it just so happens they aren't open until Monday. Catch number two? Unless I pay for it, the boot won't be removed until not only the situation is settled with the parking authority, but the ticket is also dismissed. Catch number three? If the car is still booted as of Monday, it will be towed.

Everyone got all of that? So that leaves me with one choice, to pay the fee for boot removal of $150. So just to recap, instead of a $5 renewal (which I did actually pay, but they obviously have ****ed up on), I'm getting charge $218 worth of fines / fees. Needless to say this WILL be worked out, and I'll stop payment on the $150 charge if I have to, but again I seriously ask WHAT THE ****?!?

The best part is that I could even be re-ticketed and re-booted any time between now and Monday for the same thing, since I have no means of doing anything about them not having my permit renewed in the system.

Some people accuse me of being a pessimist, but the truth is I'm just a realist who can't ever catch a ****ing break. Unbelievable.

[CTM]

Seriously... WHAT THE ****?!? So the saga continues...

To give you a little background for this most recent chapter, in order to park in Hoboken you need a parking permit. Which I have had since the day I moved into town. In February they sent me a renewal notice. The cost of renewal was $5. Simple enough. I gladly paid it and went along my merry way. Today I go to my car and what do I see? A ticket on my window for $68 for an expired parking permit, specifically stating "permit not renewed", which as you know by now, is inaccurate. Oh yes, and a boot on my car. Needless to say I call the number and while not in the best of moods, I am as pleasant as reasonably can be expected to the person I'm talking to. I explain the situation to her to the point she understands whats going on and says that as long as the Hoboken Parking Authority can confirm my renewal, then it can be taken care of.

The catch? Oh, it just so happens they aren't open until Monday. Catch number two? Unless I pay for it, the boot won't be removed until not only the situation is settled with the parking authority, but the ticket is also dismissed. Catch number three? If the car is still booted as of Monday, it will be towed.

Everyone got all of that? So that leaves me with one choice, to pay the fee for boot removal of $150. So just to recap, instead of a $5 renewal (which I did actually pay, but they obviously have ****ed up on), I'm getting charge $218 worth of fines / fees. Needless to say this WILL be worked out, and I'll stop payment on the $150 charge if I have to, but again I seriously ask WHAT THE ****?!?

The best part is that I could even be re-ticketed and re-booted any time between now and Monday for the same thing, since I have no means of doing anything about them not having my permit renewed in the system.

Some people accuse me of being a pessimist, but the truth is I'm just a realist who can't ever catch a ****ing break. Unbelievable.

This kind of nonsense happens to me all the time. hate government and just about anything their involved in.

Recently i was pulled over and had my car impounded on the side of the road, because i was late on registration, (i had moved, never got the slip w/e) it was a saturday, i was 1hr from home with my 2 young kids and they brought me to a nearby shopping center to wait for someone to pick me up. Then I couldn't register online, cause I didn't have the slip that comes in the mail. The phone and physical locations we're closed. So i had to get a ride home, then a ride back on Monday after stopping at DMV to get registered, then over to the police station, finally to the private impound lot. Get my car, start driving home, and realize the hillbilles running the place, had stoled like $50 worth of quarter and other change in the car + god knows what else. And this is the place the cops are contracted with to impound cars.

I understand i was in error, but I've been a registered and licensed driver in this state for almost 20 years and my car had been registered for 2 years prior. I have never been in trouble with the law in anyway, and I get dumped on the side of the road cause i neglected to pay their BS registration fees (in a state that i already pay a ton of taxes in) **** em.

anyway.. good luck

[Dan.]

Sorry to hear about your troubles, Bleedin. That really sucks. Good luck with everything!

[Bleedin Green]

This kind of nonsense happens to me all the time. hate government and just about anything their involved in.

Recently i was pulled over and had my car impounded on the side of the road, because i was late on registration, (i had moved, never got the slip w/e) it was a saturday, i was 1hr from home with my 2 young kids and they brought me to a nearby shopping center to wait for someone to pick me up. Then I couldn't register online, cause I didn't have the slip that comes in the mail. The phone and physical locations we're closed. So i had to get a ride home, then a ride back on Monday after stopping at DMV to get registered, then over to the police station, finally to the private impound lot. Get my car, start driving home, and realize the hillbilles running the place, had stoled like $50 worth of quarter and other change in the car + god knows what else. And this is the place the cops are contracted with to impound cars.

I understand i was in error, but I've been a registered and licensed driver in this state for almost 20 years and my car had been registered for 2 years prior. I have never been in trouble with the law in anyway, and I get dumped on the side of the road cause i neglected to pay their BS registration fees (in a state that i already pay a ton of taxes in) **** em.

anyway.. good luck

Yeah, the whole ridiculousness of how they handle things is insane. Having to go through that, especially with your kids is just unreal. They take it to such ridiculous degrees. And especially when you're talking about something as simple as sending in a renewal check, I would bet its about a 50-50 shot whether the fault is on the person themselves or the governing body just f'ing up. Yet somehow they feel its an appropriate response to go to such extremes as impounding or booting a car.

In the case of Hoboken, they only really use boots for the purpose of forcing out of towners to pay their parking tickets, all residents don't get booted because they have all of your relevant info from your permit. And yet because of a clerical issue with renewal, they slap a boot that will take $150 to get off on a car that has a valid (albeit "expired" by a few weeks) parking permit, whether they were right or wrong. I'm just hoping to God I get through this weekend without any further problems, because at least on Monday I can just sit there and argue with the people at the Parking Authority until they fix their mistake and get the rest of this crap worked out from there, but until then, I can just keep getting slapped with one BS ticket (and boot) after another.

[CTM]

Yeah, the whole ridiculousness of how they handle things is insane. Having to go through that, especially with your kids is just unreal. They take it to such ridiculous degrees. And especially when you're talking about something as simple as sending in a renewal check, I would bet its about a 50-50 shot whether the fault is on the person themselves or the governing body just f'ing up. Yet somehow they feel its an appropriate response to go to such extremes as impounding or booting a car.

In the case of Hoboken, they only really use boots for the purpose of forcing out of towners to pay their parking tickets, all residents don't get booted because they have all of your relevant info from your permit. And yet because of a clerical issue with renewal, they slap a boot that will take $150 to get off on a car that has a valid (albeit "expired" by a few weeks) parking permit, whether they were right or wrong. I'm just hoping to God I get through this weekend without any further problems, because at least on Monday I can just sit there and argue with the people at the Parking Authority until they fix their mistake and get the rest of this crap worked out from there, but until then, I can just keep getting slapped with one BS ticket (and boot) after another.

Sometime i wish i was a lawyer an could just sue these people for fun

[uart]

What state? NJ is pretty blatant about selling reductions in points.