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Noah's Ark found


SouthernJet
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A friend of mine doesn't believe in God. He said if God existed things like the disaster in Haiti and Fake Boobs would not exist.

He would if free will is part of the picture. Saying God doesn't exist because humans do terrible or immoral things is almost like saying "My kids do terrible things, so that must mean I don't exist".

People who argue against God's existance certainly can make a compelling case, but that point on its own shouldn't really sway people as much as it does.

Admittedly, though, believing that God exists is not as much of a leap as believing in the Biblical worldview, including Noah's Ark.

IBTL.

Edited by Jetsfan80
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He would if free will is part of the picture. Saying God doesn't exist because humans do terrible or immoral things is almost like saying "My kids do terrible things, so that must mean I don't exist".

People who argue against God's existance certainly can make a compelling case, but that point on its own shouldn't really sway people as much as it does.

Admittedly, though, believing that God exists is not as much of a leap as believing in the Biblical worldview, including Noah's Ark.

IBTL.

Good points Jetsfan, but I don’t think that would address the question of “If God exists how come natural disasters happen?” Like what happened in Haiti, the example that Max gave.

I said this earlier; there are things the carnal mind just can’t understand. There is always going to be unanswered questions, things unproven and unseen. If there was proof and answers for everything, there would be no need for faith. God works through love and faith, He builds people up through faith. Therefore there is a need for faith, He wants us to have it, there will always be questions. These things are spiritually understood, not carnally.

Like you said people have free will, so some will choose not to believe, and think it’s stupid for anyone to believe such things. But when God makes something known to ones heart it becomes undeniable. More real than anything one knows, realer than the things they can see, touch and prove, undeniable. Whether they agree with it, understand it, like it or even want to believe it, it’s become to real to deny. This comes from a personal experience, so it should not be expected to be understood by just anyone and everyone. I can't understand allot of what people have in their hearts, no way would I expect them to understand what I have in mine.

Some people don’t want that to be so, they want what they want and feel no need or desire for God to get in their way, so they may never experience such a thing. They may not feel that way forever though, life happens, and that can change, but still some will be closed to it or deny it when it comes, and some may miss it all together. However I do believe God will make Himself known to anybody who really wants to know Him, and has the tiniest bit of faith that He exists. Whether they except and receive Him for who He is, is another story.

I don’t believe what I believe, because I heard somebody say it, or because it’s a religion, or written in a book. Man does not declare who God is, God declares who He is. I believe what I believe because through my life’s experiences God made it real to me. I honestly believe that’s what it takes for anybody to truly believe in and know God.

Remember, ”A wicked and adulterous generation seeks after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas.” Knowing God requires faith, not proof.

Through faith one can know Him, and once He has made Himself known, there's no need or desire for any more proof. He becomes the realist thing in your life, the realist thing you know, undeniable.

Edited by The Brooklyn Jet
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Looks small to have pairs of every animal. Not proof, since any group of engineers looking for credit could make this.

first off thats not a picture of what they found......the article clearly states that. second....how is a group of engineers going to build something like that now and have it carbon dated to 4800 years ago.

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first off thats not a picture of what they found......the article clearly states that. second....how is a group of engineers going to build something like that now and have it carbon dated to 4800 years ago.

Use old wood. The Mediterranean is littered with old shipwrecks whose timbers would be good for this.

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I'm down with the nature of things unseen - things like love, first and foremost - but there's also a line between faith and not using the brain God gave ya.

Not believing in god is having faith as well, just a different kind

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Not believing in god is having faith as well, just a different kind

Consider the scientific model, which I agree with: The 3-d universe *has* a border, and it's growing. Beyond the border? ...by definition 'nothing'. Most physicists accept that all that "is" is contained inside of NOTHING. Think about it some more. It's true, it's real, and it's absolutely insane.

I think that as long as reality is this bizarre, either conclusion -- faith or science or a mix of both -- has a right to be considered.

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Consider the scientific model, which I agree with: The 3-d universe *has* a border, and it's growing. Beyond the border? ...by definition 'nothing'. Most physicists accept that all that "is" is contained inside of NOTHING. Think about it some more. It's true, it's real, and it's absolutely insane.

I think that as long as reality is this bizarre, either conclusion -- faith or science or a mix of both -- has a right to be considered.

and how did something, come out of nothing?

or, what caused the big bang?

if you abjectly reject the idea of god, you have faith in something else unknown to science

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and how did something, come out of nothing?

or, what caused the big bang?

if you abjectly reject the idea of god, you have faith in something else unknown to science

That is literally what gets me everytime. Being serious, there was something. Why? I know what I believe.

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and how did something, come out of nothing?

or, what caused the big bang?

if you abjectly reject the idea of god, you have faith in something else unknown to science

Agreed. Currently physicists speak of "multiply connected multiverses"... but all that does is expand the problem. You still have a border -- and a whole lot of universes -- packed inside of ...nothing.

I don't disagree with what Cosmologists say. But they also think our minds are so molded by 3-d space that we cannot visualize reality beyond it. I say: What about the possibility that our minds understand it perfectly, and that the whole of reality is a bunch of crap?

Have you seen a bunch of hampsters in an aquarium? They're all fat, jammed in a corner, sleeping, except for one. That one hampster is ignoring the others and scratching on the glass for hours on end; convinced there's something not quite right about pellets, cedar and metal wheels. I'm the hampster on the glass; I want to know what the hell is really going on here. I'm ready to take Neo's pill.

Edited by JerryK
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Consider the scientific model, which I agree with: The 3-d universe *has* a border, and it's growing. Beyond the border? ...by definition 'nothing'. Most physicists accept that all that "is" is contained inside of NOTHING. Think about it some more. It's true, it's real, and it's absolutely insane.

I think that as long as reality is this bizarre, either conclusion -- faith or science or a mix of both -- has a right to be considered.

We're a program on a computer. Each major extinction was the computer rebooting. Or a game. Or a thought. Or there's a 4th dimension (time) that we have yet to discover (black holes?!?!?!). Or we're just some planet in the universe. There's alot of things.

Edited by SenorGato
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soooooo

if noahs family were the only people left (hey, enough water to land a boat on top of a mointain, how could any one survive ?)

are we all products of incest ?

That is where you get into the debate over how literally we are to take the Bible. Look at the very beginning of Genesis for example:

1) "On the fourth day...." the sun is created. However, how could there have been three "days" without a sun?

2) When God tells Adam & Eve not to eat the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, he tells them that if they do they will be dead. However, reading this in english is a bad translation. The original Hebrew literally says "you will die so much you will be dead". And no, this is not "spiritual death", a concept not understood 3,000 or so years ago. This is physical death. Yet when they eat the fruit, they don't die.

These "contradictions" are so obvious that there's no way we were meant to read the Bible 100 % LITERALLY. Does this mean that we are not to take moral truths from scripture, AND that there is no historical substance to it? Of course not. Jesus Christ actually did walk the Earth 2,000 years ago, after all, along with Pontius Pilate, Julius Caesar and others, confirmed by sources outside of the Bible.

However, the "contradictions" in scripture ARE a reason that I believe its OK to ask questions about Biblical teachings. One verse in the Gospels says that we're to love God with not only our hearts but our MINDS. If God exists, He didn't give us brains only to just blindly accept things we're taught. That's the biggest mistake that organized religion has made. We should have the opportunity to ask the tough questions and set out to find the answers ourselves, with the help of other curious souls.

To me, the preponderance of the evidence tells me that God exists. And while it takes a greater amount of faith to be a Christian, its the worldview that makes the most sense to me. And to Jewish people who know the story of Noah just as well, if not better, they accept a similar worldview.

IBTL!

Atheists, have at it! ;)

Edited by Jetsfan80
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Does this mean that we are not to take moral truths from scripture, AND that there is no historical substance to it? Of course not.

There are moral truths and historical substance in many novels.

I'd love to see this historical evidence that Jesus actually existed. The gospels themselves were all written anywhere from 70-150 years after the crucifixion is said to've taken place.

I respect your right to believe in it, and I'm genuinely happy for you if it brings you a sense of peace. But, respectfully, I don't buy it at all.

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That is where you get into the debate over how literally we are to take the Bible. Look at the very beginning of Genesis for example:

1) "On the fourth day...." the sun is created. However, how could there have been three "days" without a sun?

2) When God tells Adam & Eve not to eat the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, he tells them that if they do they will be dead. However, reading this in english is a bad translation. The original Hebrew literally says "you will die so much you will be dead". And no, this is not "spiritual death", a concept not understood 3,000 or so years ago. This is physical death. Yet when they eat the fruit, they don't die.

These "contradictions" are so obvious that there's no way we were meant to read the Bible 100 % LITERALLY. Does this mean that we are not to take moral truths from scripture, AND that there is no historical substance to it? Of course not. Jesus Christ actually did walk the Earth 2,000 years ago, after all, along with Pontius Pilate, Julius Caesar and others, confirmed by sources outside of the Bible.

However, the "contradictions" in scripture ARE a reason that I believe its OK to ask questions about Biblical teachings. One verse in the Gospels says that we're to love God with not only our hearts but our MINDS. If God exists, He didn't give us brains only to just blindly accept things we're taught. That's the biggest mistake that organized religion has made. We should have the opportunity to ask the tough questions and set out to find the answers ourselves, with the help of other curious souls.

To me, the preponderance of the evidence tells me that God exists. And while it takes a greater amount of faith to be a Christian, its the worldview that makes the most sense to me. And to Jewish people who know the story of Noah just as well, if not better, they accept a similar worldview.

IBTL!

Atheists, have at it! ;)

The contradictions you speak of are in translation, not scripture. This is a very good read on the scripture you question: http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/2007/05/02/dying-you-shall-die

As far as 3 days without sun, what would that matter? According to the bible there was no life created until after the creation of the sun, and there was light on day 1.

You are right, God didn't give us brains only to just blindly accept things we're taught, but there's more to knowing God than just what can be grasped by the mind.

There are spiritual truths, that certainly do contradict the thinking of the carnal mind, and they are pure wisdom.

The Psalms and the Proverbs are full of them, but I guess that really does not mean much if you think they are not meant to be taken literally.

God gave us more than just a mind for the discernment of truth.

What about the heart, the spirit or soul?

Edited by The Brooklyn Jet
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and how did something, come out of nothing?

or, what caused the big bang?

if you abjectly reject the idea of god, you have faith in something else unknown to science

I think this is actually harder to believe than anything written in the bible.

So there was nothing, and then bang there was something, that led to everything?

I'm sorry but how is that supposed to compute in my mind?

Why would I even want to believe that I come from nothing and when I die I'll go back to nothing?

I honestly think one has to have something against the notion of God to believe this.

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Congratulations. ;)

Congratulations? It was a purchase based on faith, belief not grounded in reality. I wanted to believe and acted on belief. No harm done but certainly I no longer have faith in undercoating. The fact that things don't need to be understood or found to be believed doesn't make it right or a good thing.

The fact that we wrongly act on faith or belief without knowledge all the time is the reason we continue to explore and expand our knowledge base. At this point in the time continuum we may not have the knowledge base necessary to fully understand our origins whether they be the act of a single creator or multiple creators or random acts unconnected or connected? Religion for most of us is a condition based on early indoctrination. We are what are parents were for the most part.

I don't buy into faith as necessarily a positive thing because for the most part it's based on indoctrination and fear. Real spirituality that makes us act out in a kinder manner to our fellow man on the other hand is a wonderful characteristic and that is often a result of faith in something whether God, or fellow man, etc., etc., etc.

Edited by Biggs
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Originally Posted by CTM viewpost.gif

and how did something, come out of nothing?

or, what caused the big bang?

if you abjectly reject the idea of god, you have faith in something else unknown to science

I think this is actually harder to believe than anything written in the bible.

So there was nothing, and then bang there was something, that led to everything?

I'm sorry but how is that supposed to compute in my mind?

Why would I even want to believe that I come from nothing and when I die I'll go back to nothing?

I honestly think one has to have something against the notion of God to believe this.

Disclaimer: I really want this to be seen as a scientific point and not a religious one.

I'm a person of faith, but I like the scientific aspect of this discussion.

Frankly, a notion of God is the same as having multiple universes. It all (including God, if you like) has to exist someWHERE, so where is ..."is"?

The speed of light, the red shift, spectrometry, our knowledge of nuclear physics...these all corroborate a rather instantaneous beginning of things. People of faith feeling threatened about this are simply putting Galileo back under house arrest for questioning the Copernican solar system. Galileo was no athiest; he was a Devout Catholic concerned about his findings -- in that day people were convinced the bible put the earth at the center of everything. Galileo was reassured by his Bishop with this quote: "The bible tells us how to go to heaven, not how the heavens go". (I personally love this quote) Unfortunately, the Pope disageed. Today, people's biblical interpretations (not faith itself) are again out of line with science. This shouldn't be feared or argued, but rather an opportunity to work together to better understand our baffling existence.

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JerryK, I also appreciate the scientific aspect of the dialogue, and agree that the Big Bang should not make people of faith upset. The fact that the universe, along with time and space, burst into existance in a single moment actually supports Genesis.

Einstein and other physicists and astronomers around before the Big Bang Theory came around would have all agreed that the universe always existed. However, when we all realized it didn't, you had to come to one of 2 conclusions, as was mentioned already. Either the universe came from nothing, or something.

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This shouldn't be feared or argued, but rather an opportunity to work together to better understand our baffling existence.

I'm not baffled by our existence. One day a monkey stood up and said, "f^ck this!" And the human race was born. :P

But I kid...

When I'm feeling more spiritual than cynical, I agree that the mathematical magic of the heavens could easily be "by design," and that love could be the energy that makes electrons buzz around protons.

I don't think organized religion is ever going to get there, though. In today's society, it's a buttress for ignorance - not the other way around. I recognize that there are many wonderful religious people. Mormons, in particular. I don't understand how anyone could believe that stuff, yet they're some of the sweetest people on the planet.

Then you have the religious nuts using (or hiding behind) their "beliefs" to attack gays, shoot at abortion doctors, or destroy the Twin Towers. Nothing spiritual about that.

I respect anyone to believe anything they want that helps them to cope with this world of ours. As long as they keep it at home.

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JerryK, I also appreciate the scientific aspect of the dialogue, and agree that the Big Bang should not make people of faith upset. The fact that the universe, along with time and space, burst into existance in a single moment actually supports Genesis.

Einstein and other physicists and astronomers around before the Big Bang Theory came around would have all agreed that the universe always existed. However, when we all realized it didn't, you had to come to one of 2 conclusions, as was mentioned already. Either the universe came from nothing, or something.

Either the universe came from nothing or something. Something as in what? A superior being creating it? Sorry, I just don't buy it.

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