Noah's Ark found

[JerryK]

Either the universe came from nothing or something. Something as in what? A superior being creating it? Sorry, I just don't buy it.

Well the something could also be another universe. The large hadron collider is has the ability to create 'mini-universes'. Some are fearing what might happen when they try it. So really the only problem we have to solve is where the first one came from.

..and of course... 'where' the universes are now.

[Green DNA]

I'm not baffled by our existence. One day a monkey stood up and said, "f^ck this!" And the human race was born.

But I kid...

When I'm feeling more spiritual than cynical, I agree that the mathematical magic of the heavens could easily be "by design," and that love could be the energy that makes electrons buzz around protons.

I don't think organized religion is ever going to get there, though. In today's society, it's a buttress for ignorance - not the other way around. I recognize that there are many wonderful religious people. Mormons, in particular. I don't understand how anyone could believe that stuff, yet they're some of the sweetest people on the planet.

Then you have the religious nuts using (or hiding behind) their "beliefs" to attack gays, shoot at abortion doctors, or destroy the Twin Towers. Nothing spiritual about that.

I respect anyone to believe anything they want that helps them to cope with this world of ours. As long as they keep it at home.

This!

[Bob]

I think Noah was headed for Hawaii, but when the beavers ate a hole in the bottom of the boat, they had to dock in Turkey for repairs.

Then the tide went out and never came back.

That makes as much sense as anything else about this ridiculous story.

If it's real, I'd like to kick Noah's ass for not swatting both mosquitoes when he had a chance.

[Jetsfan80]

Either the universe came from nothing or something. Something as in what? A superior being creating it? Sorry, I just don't buy it.

Well what else could it be? Whatever created the universe would have had to be something outside of space and time, since neither of those things existed before the Big Bang. It had to be something supernatural, outside the bounds of all laws of nature, physics, etc.

Otherwise, you're arguing that all matter appeared out of nothing, which I think requires MORE of a leap of faith than arguing that God created everything.

[THE ILK]

Congratulations? It was a purchase based on faith, belief not grounded in reality. I wanted to believe and acted on belief. No harm done but certainly I no longer have faith in undercoating. The fact that things don't need to be understood or found to be believed doesn't make it right or a good thing.

The fact that we wrongly act on faith or belief without knowledge all the time is the reason we continue to explore and expand our knowledge base. At this point in the time continuum we may not have the knowledge base necessary to fully understand our origins whether they be the act of a single creator or multiple creators or random acts unconnected or connected? Religion for most of us is a condition based on early indoctrination. We are what are parents were for the most part.

I don't buy into faith as necessarily a positive thing because for the most part it's based on indoctrination and fear. Real spirituality that makes us act out in a kinder manner to our fellow man on the other hand is a wonderful characteristic and that is often a result of faith in something whether God, or fellow man, etc., etc., etc.

I understood it was a purchase based on faith, I was congratulating you on it. I'm sorry the undercoating let you down, I don't blame you for losing faith in it.

My faith is in God, and I would not expect my personal experiences to be yours or anybody else's reality. I agree, the fact that things don't need to be understood or found to be believed doesn't make it right or a good thing.

I encourage you to continue to explore and expand your knowledge base, my faith or belief is not without knowledge. While I may not be able to answer and prove everything, my personal experience has been real enough to give me reason to have faith in such things. It has also allowed me to understand the need and significance for there to be things that require faith in God to believe as I have seen such faith work in my life and cause me to grow spiritually.

Again I believe this comes from ones own personal experiences. I can't expect to understand everything everyone has experienced, nor do I expect everybody to understand what I have experienced either.

Again I agree, religion for most of us is a condition based on early indoctrination. We are what are parents were for the most part. I don't consider myself a religious person because I believe in God. I believe God and religion are two very different things and this belief has not come from my parents or any early indoctrination.

Like you said we should explore and expand our knowledge base, I agree and I have and continue to. I also think all people should, I don't encourage anybody take any body's word on anything, as that is not how I found my faith.

As for your last point about faith, fear and spirituality, it's and excellent point, and I whole heartedly agree. I'm thankful my faith in God leaves me little to fear, allowing me to be more spiritual, and to act kinder. Don't get me wrong I have allot of work to do on myself always. (I may even take it easier on the trolls ) I am very grateful to know I don't worship a God of condemnation and damnation, but a God that loves me and chose to give me life in spite of my short comings.

[THE ILK]

Disclaimer: I really want this to be seen as a scientific point and not a religious one.

I'm a person of faith, but I like the scientific aspect of this discussion.

Frankly, a notion of God is the same as having multiple universes. It all (including God, if you like) has to exist someWHERE, so where is ..."is"?

The speed of light, the red shift, spectrometry, our knowledge of nuclear physics...these all corroborate a rather instantaneous beginning of things. People of faith feeling threatened about this are simply putting Galileo back under house arrest for questioning the Copernican solar system. Galileo was no athiest; he was a Devout Catholic concerned about his findings -- in that day people were convinced the bible put the earth at the center of everything. Galileo was reassured by his Bishop with this quote: "The bible tells us how to go to heaven, not how the heavens go". (I personally love this quote) Unfortunately, the Pope disageed. Today, people's biblical interpretations (not faith itself) are again out of line with science. This shouldn't be feared or argued, but rather an opportunity to work together to better understand our baffling existence.

JerryK, I also appreciate the scientific aspect of the dialogue, and agree that the Big Bang should not make people of faith upset. The fact that the universe, along with time and space, burst into existance in a single moment actually supports Genesis.

Einstein and other physicists and astronomers around before the Big Bang Theory came around would have all agreed that the universe always existed. However, when we all realized it didn't, you had to come to one of 2 conclusions, as was mentioned already. Either the universe came from nothing, or something.

Good stuff, I have no problem with this as my faith is in God and not man.

[JMJ]

I am an atheist. Christians, muslims, jews, etc. - you are all atheists as well. I just don't believe in one more God than you do.

[THE ILK]

I'm not baffled by our existence. One day a monkey stood up and said, "f^ck this!" And the human race was born.

But I kid...

When I'm feeling more spiritual than cynical, I agree that the mathematical magic of the heavens could easily be "by design," and that love could be the energy that makes electrons buzz around protons.

I don't think organized religion is ever going to get there, though. In today's society, it's a buttress for ignorance - not the other way around. I recognize that there are many wonderful religious people. Mormons, in particular. I don't understand how anyone could believe that stuff, yet they're some of the sweetest people on the planet.

Then you have the religious nuts using (or hiding behind) their "beliefs" to attack gays, shoot at abortion doctors, or destroy the Twin Towers. Nothing spiritual about that.

I respect anyone to believe anything they want that helps them to cope with this world of ours. As long as they keep it at home.

I feel the same way about allot of this. There is definitely a difference between religion and God, no doubt, and not everything done in the name of God or religion is of God. It's sad how obvious that has been throughout history and in the present. I'm thankful my faith is in God and not man. The people who do such things are not even in line with their own religious principles, let alone God Himself.

[THE ILK]

Either the universe came from nothing or something. Something as in what? A superior being creating it? Sorry, I just don't buy it.

I respect your right to to believe whatever it is you want to believe, but I'm curious.

Do you believe everything came from something else other than "A superior being creating it."

If so what to you think that is?

If not, and you believe everything came from nothing.

Is there a reason you find it easier to believe that everything came from nothing instead of something?

[THE ILK]

Well the something could also be another universe. The large hadron collider is has the ability to create 'mini-universes'. Some are fearing what might happen when they try it. So really the only problem we have to solve is where the first one came from.

..and of course... 'where' the universes are now.

Let's say for sake of arguments sake, this is the way our universe was put into action.

I think I'd find it even harder to believe that a universe capable of creating other universes, came into existence from nothing.

It's almost like a chicken or the egg thing.

[THE ILK]

Well what else could it be? Whatever created the universe would have had to be something outside of space and time, since neither of those things existed before the Big Bang. It had to be something supernatural, outside the bounds of all laws of nature, physics, etc.

Otherwise, you're arguing that all matter appeared out of nothing, which I think requires MORE of a leap of faith than arguing that God created everything.

I agree.

[THE ILK]

I am an atheist. Christians, muslims, jews, etc. - you are all atheists as well. I just don't believe in one more God than you do.

Isn't an atheist someone who does not believe in God or deities?

So if Christians, Muslims, Jews and etc. do believe in God or deities, how can they be atheists?

[JMJ]

Isn't an atheist someone who does not believe in God or deities?

So if Christians, Muslims, Jews and etc. do believe in God or deities, how can they be atheists?

Does a Christian believe that Allah is God or a God?

Do Jews believe in Jesus Christ?

You all believe in YOUR God and dismiss (don't believe) in the God's of other religions. So like I said, you are atheists as well, I just choose to believe in one less God than you do.

[SouthernJet]

I just choose to believe in one less God than you do.

[JMJ]

In real life, believing and talking to imaginary friends will land you in a straight jacket. In religion however, it is faith!

[SouthernJet]

In real life, believing and talking to imaginary friends will land you in a straight jacket. In religion however, it is faith!

I cant disagree with you there....

[CTM]

Does a Christian believe that Allah is God or a God?

Do Jews believe in Jesus Christ?

You all believe in YOUR God and dismiss (don't believe) in the God's of other religions. So like I said, you are atheists as well, I just choose to believe in one less God than you do.

religion is silly.. faith in an unamed god, less so..

don't confuse the two..

[JMJ]

religion is silly.. faith in an unamed god, less so..

don't confuse the two..

So are you an agnostic theist?

[THE ILK]

Does a Christian believe that Allah is God or a God?

Do Jews believe in Jesus Christ?

You all believe in YOUR God and dismiss (don't believe) in the God's of other religions. So like I said, you are atheists as well, I just choose to believe in one less God than you do.

Christians, Jews and Muslims all believe in the same God as their creator.

Jews and Muslims do not agree with who God made his covenant with Isaac or Ishmael.

They all have a different belief in who Jesus was, but regardless...

If an atheist is someone who does not believe in God or deities, how can you call Christians, Jews and Muslims atheists when they do believe in God or deities?

[JMJ]

Christians, Jews and Muslims all believe in the same God as their creator.

Jews and Muslims do not agree with who God made his covenant with Isaac or Ishmael.

They all have a different belief in who Jesus was, but regardless...

If an atheist is someone who does not believe in God or deities, how can you call Christians, Jews and Muslims atheists when they do believe in God or deities?

So the God of the Christian religion is Allah? They are the same person?

[THE ILK]

In real life, believing and talking to imaginary friends will land you in a straight jacket. In religion however, it is faith!

Who gets to determine whether they are imaginary or not?

[JMJ]

Who gets to determine whether they are imaginary or not?

Definition of imaginary = Lacking factual reality

You can put 2 and 2 together yourself...

[THE ILK]

So the God of the Christian religion is Allah? They are the same person?

I would not call Him a person no.

Christians, Jews and Muslims all believe in the same God as their creator, yes.

[THE ILK]

Definition of imaginary = Lacking factual reality

You can put 2 and 2 together yourself...

So I take it however it is you believe we all got here, you have nothing but facts to prove it.

So how was the universe formed, what are the facts?

[JMJ]

So how I take it however it is you believe we all got here, you have nothing but facts to prove it.

So how was the universe formed, what are your facts?

I don't claim to know and I'm perfectly fine with not knowing. Hopefully some day we will. My #1 beef with religion is that they try to simplify something that we obviously don't know the answer to. Science on the other hand, at least they are humble enough to say we don't know but we're working at it.

Religion = We don't know so it must be MAGIC!

[THE ILK]

I don't claim to know and I'm perfectly fine with not knowing. Hopefully some day we will. My #1 beef with religion is that they try to simplify something that we obviously don't know the answer to. Science on the other hand, at least they are humble enough to say we don't know but we're working at it.

Religion = We don't know so it must be MAGIC!

Well I have said several times in this thread that there is plenty I don't know and I too am fine with that, but that I have faith in what I believe, based on things I do know to be real from personal experience.

I don't feel or claim that to be religion, or simple.

So if what I believe, can be categorized as religion and imaginary, because it lacks "facts" then I guess all of the non factual science is imaginary too.

I humbly believe what I believe, I'm not sure science is so humble on what it is they don't believe.

[JMJ]

Well I have said several times in this thread that there is plenty I don't know and I too am fine with that, but that I have faith in what I believe, based on things I do know to be real from personal experience.

I don't feel or claim that to be religion, or simple.

So if what I believe, can be categorized as religion and imaginary, because it lacks "facts" then I guess all of the non factual science is imaginary too.

I humbly believe what I believe, I'm not sure science is so humble on what it is they don't believe.

That is because Science and Religion work totally opposite than one another. A religious person believes and then dares someone to prove them wrong. Since there are ZERO facts that support Religion, and it is based on faith, it is impossible to do so.

Science on the other hand works backward. A thought, idea or hypothesis is introduced, and then they work as hard as possible to prove it NOT to be true. If they can not, then they call it fact.

People that say Science and Religion can co-exist only do so to not piss off religious people.

[THE ILK]

That is because Science and Religion work totally opposite than one another. A religious person believes and then dares someone to prove them wrong. Since there are ZERO facts that support Religion, and it is based on faith, it is impossible to do so.

Science on the other hand works backward. A thought, idea or hypothesis is introduced, and then they work as hard as possible to prove it NOT to be true. If they can not, then they call it fact.

People that say Science and Religion can co-exist only do so to not piss off religious people.

Well I guess not all people who believe in God should be considered "religious" people then. As I said several times God and religion are two very different things.

I believe in God, I don't consider that to mean I am religious, it's people who categorize God and religions. I believe religions are man made and God is not.

I don't dare anybody to prove me wrong, I have said over and over I do not expect anybody else to understand how my personal experiences lead to my reality, nor do I expect to understand anybody else's.

It's a fact that science can't explain everything, that does not make it imaginary, and further opens the door for the possibility of God.

[CTM]

So are you an agnostic theist?

most closely, yes.. not strongly though..

and again, you have faith to, just yours is in a natural explanation for all of this..

[JMJ]

Well I guess not all people who believe in God should be considered "religious" people then. As I said several times God and religion are two very different things.

I believe in God, I don't consider that to mean I am religious, it's people who categorize God and religions. I believe religions are man made and God is not.

I don't dare anybody to prove me wrong, I have said over and over I do not expect anybody else to understand how my personal experiences lead to my reality, nor do I expect to understand anybody else's.

It's a fact that science can't explain everything, that does not make it imaginary, and further opens the door for the possibility of God.

Gnosticism and theism are two totally different things. Gnosticism deals with knowledge, where theism deals with belief.

I am an Agnostic Atheist. Atheist because I don't believe in God or God's, and Agnostic because the reason I don't believe in them is because I do not feel we have sufficient evidence, knowledge, or facts to believe in them.

We can simply agree to disagree and I don't think either of us would have hard feelings or a problem with that. Hope I didn't come off as too snarky at times during the "debate." Good talk.

[CTM]

ok, scientist jmj..

prove there isn't a god

[JMJ]

most closely, yes.. not strongly though..

and again, you have faith to, just yours is in a natural explanation for all of this..

I wouldn't say I have faith, per se. I just feel we have insufficient evidence to believe in anything. Live by the golden rule (treat others the way you would like to be treated) and everything will sort itself out on it's own.

[JMJ]

ok, scientist jmj..

prove there isn't a god

I can't. You prove there is one.

[THE ILK]

Gnosticism and theism are two totally different things. Gnosticism deals with knowledge, where theism deals with belief.

I am an Agnostic Atheist. Atheist because I don't believe in God or God's, and Agnostic because the reason I don't believe in them is because I do not feel we have sufficient evidence, knowledge, or facts to believe in them.

We can simply agree to disagree and I don't think either of us would have hard feelings or a problem with that. Hope I didn't come off as too snarky at times during the "debate." Good talk.

Not at all I think it was good too, and I understand where you are coming from.

I believe one can experience evidence of God, gain knowledge from it, and because of the realness/divinity of it, know it as fact. This then makes it easy to have faith in other "Godly" things, unseen/unproven.

I believe that it requires faith that this can happen, for it to take place though. Look many are closed to that, or don't believe it's possible and I understand this. I did not believe it until I experienced it for myself, but I got to a place were I was not closed to it's possibility.

Having experienced it, it's become undeniable to me, but hey we're all at different places at different times in life. What's important is that we have a desire to know the truth for ourselves, we never really know where life will take us, and it's not hard to fathom that what we believe today can change tomorrow.

[CTM]

I can't. You prove there is one.

so you saying "there is no god" is a faith based statement, since you can't prove it. yes?