Blackout Posted May 15, 2010 Share Posted May 15, 2010 1.79 ERa...and that isn't even the best ERA on the team Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BroadwayJoe12 Posted May 16, 2010 Share Posted May 16, 2010 Andy is probably having the best beginning to a season he's had ever, he's just been phenomenal. His babip has always been above the league average, besides his first two years in Houston, and this year is well below. He has drastically lowered his line-drive rate and is serving up more ground balls than he's used to. I've been just floored with how well he's been pitching; I mean, an ERA+ of ~200 is insane. I think the more important thing to look at here is the ramifications this could have on his future HOF potential. With the win today, he currently has 99 more wins than losses at 234 wins to 135 losses. **There has never been a pitcher who has finished his career with 100 or more wins than losses, who hasn't been inducted into Cooperstown. Yes, he is lacking a Cy young, but he has finished top 5 in voting 4 times and I personally believe his postseason pitching could offset that a bit. If he can continue this pace, which history says he probably can't, and finishes top 5 in CYA voting, he may have pushed himself over the edge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxman Posted May 16, 2010 Share Posted May 16, 2010 Broadway -- If he breaks 250 wins and ends up with 6 rings it is going to be hard to keep him out of the HOF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SenorGato Posted May 16, 2010 Share Posted May 16, 2010 Broadway -- If he breaks 250 wins and ends up with 6 rings it is going to be hard to keep him out of the HOF. Yankee or MLB? He's a very good MLB pitcher, and probably one of the top 100 pitchers of all time, but he's not a MLB HOF. Pettitte, along with Bernie Williams, was the guy I used to model myself after on the baseball field. To watch his career like many Yankee fans have you know that the guy's a top player of the time, but he was never "wow, I'm watching a HOF" special. Same could be said of Mussina, and Mussina was (probably/arguably) a better pitcher than Pettitte. Funnily enough...Mussina is BR's best comp for Pettitte through his age 33 season: http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/p/pettian01.shtml I thought Pettitte >>>> Pat Hentgen in '97, but I was also 9 and a Yankee fan/Canada hater. If there was a Hall of Very Good, Mussina and Pettitte would be the first two guys I'd want in. Bernie Williams too...not to many people realize how good Bernie was during the Yankees run...from '96-'01 he averaged a .953 OPS and from '93-'99 he set a new career high in BA every year (peaking at .342). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrazyCarl40 Posted May 16, 2010 Share Posted May 16, 2010 The way the HOF has been voting, Pettitte won't sniff the HOF because of the HGH. That's the way the votes have gone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxman Posted May 16, 2010 Share Posted May 16, 2010 The way the HOF has been voting, Pettitte won't sniff the HOF because of the HGH. That's the way the votes have gone. You know what, that is a good point. I overlooked that and if that is what keeps him out I am okay with it. Because I want all the stat inflaters out of the hall as a big f you for cheating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PS17 Posted May 16, 2010 Share Posted May 16, 2010 You know what, that is a good point. I overlooked that and if that is what keeps him out I am okay with it. Because I want all the stat inflaters out of the hall as a big f you for cheating. No A-Rod or Manny? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrazyCarl40 Posted May 16, 2010 Share Posted May 16, 2010 No A-Rod or Manny? It's going to be really interesting to see how it all shakes out in the next decade or two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxman Posted May 16, 2010 Share Posted May 16, 2010 No A-Rod or Manny? If it was up to me, neither would get in. That is how much I think they ruined the game. If you were caught or it was really obvious (Bonds, McGwire, Sosa) then you are out in my book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BroadwayJoe12 Posted May 16, 2010 Share Posted May 16, 2010 If it was up to me, neither would get in. That is how much I think they ruined the game. If you were caught or it was really obvious (Bonds, McGwire, Sosa) then you are out in my book. Such a difficult topic. Because I grew up with my mother and family idolizing Micky Mantle, Mays, Williams, Gherig etc. and while steroids weren't a big topic, amphetamines definitely were. Players used to talk about taking greenies coming back from WWII. Now if we were to get into the pharmacology of it all, those can def be considered PEDs. Now, most of the players were using them just to stay awake and get up for the game, but it's still a thin line. I personally would vote Arod, Sosa, McGwire and Bonds in the HOF, but I just think it's important to judge these players against the same players of their era. We can call it the steroid era and the HOF caliber of that era go in. But in the same sense, I understand those who don't want them in either, so I feel your point Max. Also, it just makes me respect so much more what guys like Pedro and the Big Unit were able to do..especially pedro. For his last year or two in montreal and first 4 years in Boston, he was just filthy...especially compared to the average pitcher. As a little caveat. I don't have the numbers, but I do know that baseball really started to gain prominence again during the Sosa McGwire HR chase of Maris... Baseball can hate them all they want, but I still remember them as the two who saved baseball. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NIGHT STALKER Posted May 16, 2010 Share Posted May 16, 2010 Such a difficult topic. Because I grew up with my mother and family idolizing Micky Mantle, Mays, Williams, Gherig etc. and while steroids weren't a big topic, amphetamines definitely were. Players used to talk about taking greenies coming back from WWII. Now if we were to get into the pharmacology of it all, those can def be considered PEDs. Now, most of the players were using them just to stay awake and get up for the game, but it's still a thin line. I personally would vote Arod, Sosa, McGwire and Bonds in the HOF, but I just think it's important to judge these players against the same players of their era. We can call it the steroid era and the HOF caliber of that era go in. But in the same sense, I understand those who don't want them in either, so I feel your point Max. Also, it just makes me respect so much more what guys like Pedro and the Big Unit were able to do..especially pedro. For his last year or two in montreal and first 4 years in Boston, he was just filthy...especially compared to the average pitcher. As a little caveat. I don't have the numbers, but I do know that baseball really started to gain prominence again during the Sosa McGwire HR chase of Maris... Baseball can hate them all they want, but I still remember them as the two who saved baseball. Don't even go there trying to compare amphetamines with PED's...why don't we start looking into cortisone shots then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dierking Posted May 16, 2010 Share Posted May 16, 2010 What Pettitte is doing is absolutely amazing at his age, and for just that one big blip of abuse and lying about it, the games seems all class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
talisaynon Posted May 16, 2010 Share Posted May 16, 2010 Don't even go there trying to compare amphetamines with PED's...why don't we start looking into cortisone shots then. Not a fair comparison. I don't see cortisol on the banned substance list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxman Posted May 16, 2010 Share Posted May 16, 2010 What Pettitte is doing is absolutely amazing at his age, and for just that one big blip of abuse and lying about it, the games seems all class. Good post. I wonder how his friendship is going with Clemens these days? Andy lied but I give him credit for eventually doing the right thing... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SenorGato Posted May 16, 2010 Share Posted May 16, 2010 Don't even go there trying to compare amphetamines with PED's...why don't we start looking into cortisone shots then. Cortisone shots are legal. Amphetamines, for the most part, aren't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BroadwayJoe12 Posted May 16, 2010 Share Posted May 16, 2010 Don't even go there trying to compare amphetamines with PED's...why don't we start looking into cortisone shots then. What's wrong with comparing the two??? I never said they were exactly the same, merely similar. And, point in fact, they are PEDs....merely for the fact that, they enhance one's performance. Low to medium doses of amphetamines provide one with improved reaction time, cognitive function, increased feelings of alertness and a decreased sense of exhaustion and fatigue. *This enables the player to 1) have greater reaction time to sit on the fastball and wait for the breaking pitch 2) gives them the ability to "see" the ball better 3) allows them to get up and be able to perform for the entire season without going through fatigue slumps etc. Steroids and amphetamines both improve the performance of a player by enabling them to perform better, albeit in very different ways. Using any of these drugs in baseball is still considered cheating. It's just my personal opinion that there aren't levels of cheating; just because one substance may be viewed as a less reprehensible form of cheating, doesn't mean it still isn't cheating. I have an open mind about it, yes, I wish it didn't happen, but Bonds, A-rod, Manny etc. are without a doubt some of the best baseball players the game has ever seen and to refuse them the HOF is doing a disservice to baseball in my eyes. I know many disagree, but that's why it's not our decision I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Posted May 16, 2010 Share Posted May 16, 2010 As a little caveat. I don't have the numbers, but I do know that baseball really started to gain prominence again during the Sosa McGwire HR chase of Maris... Baseball can hate them all they want, but I still remember them as the two who saved baseball. It's important not to forget that. A lot of people wrote off baseball after the postseason was canceled due to a labor dispute. That home run chase really restored public attention and good will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SenorGato Posted May 16, 2010 Share Posted May 16, 2010 I wish it didn't happen, but Bonds, A-rod, Manny etc. are without a doubt some of the best baseball players the game has ever seen and to refuse them the HOF is doing a disservice to baseball in my eyes. +1 It is a huge disservice to the game. Look at it from another way...why do they have to be punished based on the level of performance they give? They can't get into the HOF...guys like Alex Sanchez miss 50 baseball games in one season...and many other (I'm talking hundreds) of PED users get nothing at all. It's not like steroids made those guys as talented as they were/are. If we're going to target cheaters, do it right and get everyone. Of course, there'd be like 6 guys left in the HOF, but baseball would be nicer or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackout Posted May 16, 2010 Author Share Posted May 16, 2010 i'd let in the best 5-10 steroid players and hold a special "steroid wing" a-rod, manny, bonds, mcgwire, sosa, clemens, palmiero, canseco etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SenorGato Posted May 16, 2010 Share Posted May 16, 2010 [quote name='Blackout Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackout Posted May 17, 2010 Author Share Posted May 17, 2010 Should we then create a wing for the many different types of cheaters? Sign stealers in one wing...amphetamine users in another...game fixers (Shoeless Joe finally gets in!)...spitballers/ball scuffers.... spitballing was outlawed in 1920 (but grandfathered) last LEGAL spitballer retired in the early 1930's anyone after him sure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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