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Mariners' Griffey retires


THE ILK

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In my book that title still belongs to Hammering Hank Aaron. Screw Barry Bonds!
Yes, which is why I said if not for injuries.

I also think Mays would have been the first to pass Ruth, if not for the Korean war.

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Man those Mariner teams he played for were absolutely loaded...Griffey was a legitimately great player...a little overrated and rarely as good or better than Bonds even before steroids...Griffey was kind of a throwback...Comes up as a really young supertalent who blew the game away for a few years with speed, power, and all around skills...eventually he did what normal athletes used to do once they hit 30+ years old...Even as a kid I wasn't his biggest fan but I'd be an idiot if I didn't have respect for him. There's no doubt he's a first ballot HOF.

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Yes, which is why I said if not for injuries.

I also think Mays would have been the first to pass Ruth, if not for the Korean war.

I have to disagree here. Having watched both play, I have to go with the Mick. If not for injuries, this guy would have had many and I mean many records in the offensive catagory. With Mays, he was never going to be better than he was...with Mantle, you will never know.

And Mays still had like 4,000 more at bats then Mantle and they came up in the same year. And I'll take it even a step further and throw Ted Williams in there as well...he missed a lot of time during WW II and Korean wars.

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I have to disagree here. Having watched both play, I have to go with the Mick. If not for injuries, this guy would have had many and I mean many records in the offensive catagory. With Mays, he was never going to be better than he was...with Mantle, you will never know.

And Mays still had like 4,000 more at bats then Mantle and they came up in the same year. And I'll take it even a step further and throw Ted Williams in there as well...he missed a lot of time during WW II and Korean wars.

What if Mantle & Mays didn't both play where it was 7000 feet to center field?

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Yes, which is why I said if not for injuries.

I also think Mays would have been the first to pass Ruth, if not for the Korean war.

To my knowledge Willie Mays was never in Korea. Ted Williams was, big time.

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Mays has admitted to taking amphetamines. Mantle might have/probably did.

So, because Bonds is a steriod user, do you think Griffey did them too? That's exactly what you're implying when you say if Mays did amphetamines so Mantle did too. Mantle was an alcoholic, Mays might have/been also.

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How about this...how about Willie and Mickey on steriods?

Willie and Mickey on steroids and...

- Modern medicine in general.

- Diluting the collective starting (and relief) pitching talent they faced with 30 teams of 5-man rotations instead of 16-18 teams of 4-man rotations.

In theoretical terms, the 150 best starters in the country make it now as opposed to only the 60-70 best starters in the country. Half of the starting pitchers today would not be considered worthy of a place on any team's starting rotation with less than half as many opportunities back then.

Steroids or not, as they say, you still have to hit the ball. Well it should be easier to hit the ball vs the 80+ worst starters than the 70 best starters. Willie and Mickey never got to face those 80 "next-best" starters; they only faced the 64-72 best.

(The pitchers also faced that same disadvantage in a 16-18 team league as opposed to a 30-team league. They didn't get to face the dozen or so worst hitters at every position league-wide. The 12 worst-hitting catchers, the 12 worst-hitting 2nd-basemen, etc.)

- Add in how many more games they would have played if they were afforded the opportunity to be a DH - either full-time or part-time turning into full-time - as they got older, or even as they were nursing injuries when they were younger.

But then, you could say the same thing about Aaron, Ruth, etc.

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Willie and Mickey on steroids and...

- Modern medicine in general.

- Diluting the collective starting (and relief) pitching talent they faced with 30 teams of 5-man rotations instead of 16-18 teams of 4-man rotations.

In theoretical terms, the 150 best starters in the country make it now as opposed to only the 60-70 best starters in the country. Half of the starting pitchers today would not be considered worthy of a place on any team's starting rotation with less than half as many opportunities back then.

Steroids or not, as they say, you still have to hit the ball. Well it should be easier to hit the ball vs the 80+ worst starters than the 70 best starters. Willie and Mickey never got to face those 80 "next-best" starters; they only faced the 64-72 best.

(The pitchers also faced that same disadvantage in a 16-18 team league as opposed to a 30-team league. They didn't get to face the dozen or so worst hitters at every position league-wide. The 12 worst-hitting catchers, the 12 worst-hitting 2nd-basemen, etc.)

- Add in how many more games they would have played if they were afforded the opportunity to be a DH - either full-time or part-time turning into full-time - as they got older, or even as they were nursing injuries when they were younger.

But then, you could say the same thing about Aaron, Ruth, etc.

Excellent post there Spermy...just 8 teams in the AL and NL back when they were in their prime.

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pretty good career

but MANY people are over rating him historically

in terms of centerfielders, I would still put him behind Cobb, Mantle, Mays, Dimaggio, Speaker and the negro-league's Oscar Charleston.

still, being #6 at your spot is not bad

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I have to disagree here. Having watched both play, I have to go with the Mick. If not for injuries, this guy would have had many and I mean many records in the offensive catagory. With Mays, he was never going to be better than he was...with Mantle, you will never know.

And Mays still had like 4,000 more at bats then Mantle and they came up in the same year. And I'll take it even a step further and throw Ted Williams in there as well...he missed a lot of time during WW II and Korean wars.

I'm not saying I disagree here. What I meant by my original statement was, based on how many homers May's was hitting per season since he came into the league, and on where he finished in his career.

I think it's safe to say that had he played the 1 an 3/4 seasons he missed due to the Korean war, he would have been the first to pass Ruth.

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What if Mantle & Mays didn't both play where it was 7000 feet to center field?
If Duke played in Yankee stadium and DiMaggio played in Ebbets field, they both would have hit 500 homers.

A great lefty playing in a righty hitters ball park, and a great righty playing in a lefty hitters ball park.

I'm pretty sure Duke was the only lefty in his lineup, and I don't think the Yankees had many righty hitters in theirs. They were like oddities in that matter.

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May's missed 1 an 3/4 seasons because he was, add it to your knowledge.

You are correct to a degree. I'll explain in a second, but let me add my personal experience. As a Vietnam Vet, I hate when I hear vets that served during the Vietnam War say they are Vietnam Vets, but never served in Vietnam...they are called Vietnam era vets.

This is from Mays' bio...

The United States Army drafted Mays in 1952 and he subsequently missed most of the 1952 season and all of the 1953 season. Despite the conflict in Korea, Mays spent most of his time in the army playing baseball at Fort Eustis, Va. Mays missed about 266 games due to military service.

His foot never hit the ground in Korea...

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So, because Bonds is a steriod user, do you think Griffey did them too? That's exactly what you're implying when you say if Mays did amphetamines so Mantle did too. Mantle was an alcoholic, Mays might have/been also.

Tf are you talking about? If I wanted to say or imply that Mantle took amphetamines because Mays did, I would have said that. Do you realize how...simple...that is?

Mantle played hung over almost as many times as he played injured. I don't particularly care because I think the steroids issue is utter garbage, but there's a good chance he'd be given something to improve his condition around game time. Few things jump the body like some Speed (except a Lucky Strike!).

I realize that omg I'm poo-pooing on beloved, nostalgic history by making such an outlandish claim. The use of amphetamines and other PEDs didn't just pop up in the late 80's. They were as rampant...if not moreso...during the late 50's/60's/and 70's. I know that these guys are legends in your memories so you remember them for their charm and their smiles and how they loved the game and all that happy sh*t, but the fact is that twentysomething year old athletes like to get f'd up and party. Those guys rocked out with their ****s out as much as anyone does it nowadays, and it doesn't making a 154 or 162 game season any easier. No one gave a damn back then as long as you could play and you could play well...It certainly was a million times easier to get away with it without a single person caring.

It's certainly more likely to me that he did get some kind of boost more often than not...This is an interesting topic to research since eveeeeeeeeeeeryone seems to assume that the baseball stars from yesteryear were clean as a whistle and did nothing to disturb the natural honor and integrity of the game. That's what human businesses and competition is built around, right? Good 'ol honor and integrity...

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You are correct to a degree. I'll explain in a second, but let me add my personal experience. As a Vietnam Vet, I hate when I hear vets that served during the Vietnam War say they are Vietnam Vets, but never served in Vietnam...they are called Vietnam era vets.

This is from Mays' bio...

The United States Army drafted Mays in 1952 and he subsequently missed most of the 1952 season and all of the 1953 season. Despite the conflict in Korea, Mays spent most of his time in the army playing baseball at Fort Eustis, Va. Mays missed about 266 games due to military service.

His foot never hit the ground in Korea...

I was not implying that he saw combat, only that he missed 1 and 3/4 seasons, due to the war.
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Tf are you talking about? If I wanted to say or imply that Mantle took amphetamines because Mays did, I would have said that. Do you realize how...simple...that is?

Mantle played hung over almost as many times as he played injured. I don't particularly care because I think the steroids issue is utter garbage, but there's a good chance he'd be given something to improve his condition around game time. Few things jump the body like some Speed (except a Lucky Strike!).

I realize that omg I'm poo-pooing on beloved, nostalgic history by making such an outlandish claim. The use of amphetamines and other PEDs didn't just pop up in the late 80's. They were as rampant...if not moreso...during the late 50's/60's/and 70's. I know that these guys are legends in your memories so you remember them for their charm and their smiles and how they loved the game and all that happy sh*t, but the fact is that twentysomething year old athletes like to get f'd up and party. Those guys rocked out with their ****s out as much as anyone does it nowadays, and it doesn't making a 154 or 162 game season any easier. No one gave a damn back then as long as you could play and you could play well...It certainly was a million times easier to get away with it without a single person caring.

It's certainly more likely to me that he did get some kind of boost more often than not...This is an interesting topic to research since eveeeeeeeeeeeryone seems to assume that the baseball stars from yesteryear were clean as a whistle and did nothing to disturb the natural honor and integrity of the game. That's what human businesses and competition is built around, right? Good 'ol honor and integrity...

Oh horse ****...why don't you watch another Billy Crystal movie which you obvious took from "61"...like Yogi said in an interview right after that movie broke..."Mickey didn't party any harder than we all did back in those days"...was Mickey an alcoholic? Yes, after his playing days.

I quit reading your ignorant post right after your comment about "Mantle played hung over almost as many times as he played injured." He played injured all the time for your information.

I suggest you read about Mantle a little more before you take a movie that was dramatized to the full extent to capture an audience like yourself. Those that lived during that era (like myself) got their information first hand and not from some comic/actor who made a movie. You don't put up a liftetime .421 OBP by playing hungover...

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Not saying you said he saw combat...you implied in was in the Korean War. You can be in a war and not see combat.
I undestad this, he was drafted due to the war and missed 1 and 3/4 seasons.

I think he would have past Ruth had he played in those seaosns, that's all I was saying here.

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I undestad this, he was drafted due to the war and missed 1 and 3/4 seasons.

I think he would have past Ruth had he played in those seaosns, that's all I was saying here.

If he didn't pass Ruth, he would have been awful close for sure.

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You are correct to a degree. I'll explain in a second, but let me add my personal experience. As a Vietnam Vet, I hate when I hear vets that served during the Vietnam War say they are Vietnam Vets, but never served in Vietnam...they are called Vietnam era vets.

This is from Mays' bio...

The United States Army drafted Mays in 1952 and he subsequently missed most of the 1952 season and all of the 1953 season. Despite the conflict in Korea, Mays spent most of his time in the army playing baseball at Fort Eustis, Va. Mays missed about 266 games due to military service.

His foot never hit the ground in Korea...

Sounds more like an R&R assignment. :biggrin:

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I KNEW he was drafted. He NEVER to my knowledge went to Korea. Which is what YOU implied.
I said "if not for the Korean war" you even bolded it when you quoted me. I never implied he was in Korea.
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