WIZARD OF OZ Mafia Game Thread

[RuninOut]

Lily, Runin, since you two seem to have the magical ability of always knowing each other's alignment, why have neither of you shared that info yet?

Most of the time people don't believe us, and Lily is playing off tilt. Normally she is passionate no matter what alignment, and the blatant apathy of her early posts have seemed very weird.

I have a few ideas, but nothing to material atm. I would like to see her play more this game.

[DPR]

Since Lily is green, I'll do all of my responses in Blue

You couldn't help but include that little bolded part, could ya? Btw, I also think you have something to explain.

Truth? No, I couldn't. It damn near kills me not to do it in every post, but then everybody starts complaining, and I get lynched, yada, yada, yada. But you've known this for years, so why try to make a point of it now?.

Actually, no. All eyes on YOU, DPR. You.

Yeah, all eyes were on Vic because of the whole "Vicgod" thing, which he addressed, and explained a bit.

I did get a little chill up my spine though. Especially with that last "You". heh

This is nice. Cuddle up with Sharrow and make him think you're cool with him. You think that if he's town, he'll be saying to himself "Ohh, that DPR must be innocent - he thinks I am!" Nah.

It's fairly traditional to say who you think is scum and who you think is town. All I said was that I didn't have a negative vibe on Sharrow. I still don't. Sue me.

No. Only when he acts it, hehe. Some games he tries to lead the town, and it's obvious that everything he's saying is pro-town. In other games, he tries to lead and everything sounds weird. Like now.

I'll give you this point, DPR. Runin has had a soft spot for you since he starting playing on DM. You are one of the vets, and sometimes it does appear that he just wants to take you down for the sport of being able to. I can relate - I wanted to do that with Doggin my first few months of mafia on DM. I got over it, and so will Runin.

Buuuut....in this case, I do think that Runin is right.

Verby, did you want to explain to all of the nice people why you would want to come after me? It's only fair.

Vote: DPR

All sarcasm aside, you do realize that none of the points you made actually go toward making a case, right? It looks like half a page of thinly veiled snark followed by a vote motivated by personal reasons.

If I'm wrong, I'm happy to re-adress.

But if I'm right, then i think it is time for you to be as good as your word, and get over old vendettas. I know I shouldn't have turned Runin loose to play Pirate Roulette with you, and I do feel kind of bad about that. On the other hand, it was so totally intoxicatingly evil, and I just couldn't help myself. *snickers*

[Lily]

Runin, is it really that bad? I know I've been distracted, but if even you are commenting, I guess I'd better offer something.

At this point, I don't really have any firm leads on scum. I do, however have some people who I am putting at the bottom of my list. I'm leaning town on: DPR, Vicious, Slats, JiF, and Runin. I'm leaning townish (less than the others) on Barm and Nae. And there are a lot of others I need to hear more from to get a read.

I expect Pac to jump all over this, so I'll just get his name in here. I said when I voted that I wanted to pressure him to see how he responds to DPR's statements. I'm still waiting. Wanting to pressure does NOT equal that I'm sure someone is scum. So, let's not go there, okay?

Everybody else is somewhere in the middle, to varying degrees. It's far too early to have a numerical order of suspects just yet.

Oh, and Pac, nice try grouping my votes as OMGUS. If that was the case, I'd have tried to bury Vic d1. He was all over me. I wasn't happy about that, but he seems to read town to me so far.

[CTM]

I had a hell of a time formatting this, so I hope it turned out okay, if anybody actually bothers to read it. My responses in green:

You would need a handbook

[Bleedin Green]

kill me

I'd normally be happy to oblige, but I have no idea what the **** is going on in this ridiculous thread right now.

Part of me wishes we had some stupid ****ing Penningtologists to trash right now, it would be so much easier.

Damn fools.

[Smashmouth]

I was going to give Hess a little more time because I think he has some personal stuff going on. If he can't play i'm sure he'll ask to be replaced.

I think someone mentioned Verbal was having internet issues. He's been around a few times and been a no-show.

Smash was the next guy in line so I voted him.

So basicly what your saying is , you got nothin.

[Pac]

So basicly what your saying is , you got nothin.

Do you think anything I'm saying about Lily has merit or am I nuts?

[Pac]

I'd normally be happy to oblige, but I have no idea what the **** is going on in this ridiculous thread right now.

Part of me wishes we had some stupid ****ing Penningtologists to trash right now, it would be so much easier.

Damn fools.

Someones hungover right about now.

[slats]

Voting Pac, I wanted to take a look at what Lily was talking about with DPR's questions towards him - really hoping to reinforce my vote. Instead, I came away with more questions than answers. This in particular caught my attention:

But why not discuss thta there was no NK? The mafia already know exactly why, so the town won't gve them any info. And, the speculation might well lead to combination of ideas, or cause a mafia to slip up.

IMO, speculation about the lack of an NK can be good.

The mafia already know exactly why there was no NK? Really?

In my experience, the scum gets a note from the mod saying, "your NK failed," not, "sorry, but you hit the self-protecting doc," or "whoops! You hit a one use vest, try again tomorrow!"

My feeling is the town should simply be grateful for the lack of a NK, and move on. I think it could very well be a townie slipping up and giving the scum info rather than the other way around. Really, much more likely that a townie has specific info on why a NK didn't go thru than the scum. In fact, in DPR's own game, I knew why the scum's NK failed N1 because I prevented it - the scum had no idea that the Pumpkin That Shoots Laser Beams Out Of It's Ass shut them down.

In fact, the only slip up I can envision over the lack of NK's coming from scum would be this sort of phishing for info about it. So much so that I'm gonna...

unvote

vote: DPR

[SMC]

OFFICIAL VOTE COUNT--DAY 2

DPR (4) -- Barm, Runin, Verbal, Slats

Smash (2) -- JVOR, Vicious

Lily (1) -- Pac

JiF (2) -- CTM, Sharrow

Pac (2) -- JiF, Lily

With 18 Ozites in the Castle, it takes 10 to lynch.

[Dan.]

Do you think anything I'm saying about Lily has merit or am I nuts?

You're not nuts, if you had been on my side in the Predators game I would have been very happy to that someone agreed with me about her play. My issue is that I now honestly don't know what's scummy or not, coming from her. In the last game I was thinking, "Aha! I've caught her!" when she was avoiding answering any of JVoR's questions. But it turned out that she was just picking and choosing when to respond to things. It's hard for me to tell the difference because my only experience with her has been where she was town. Was there anything noticeably different in the way she played the Lost game??

Out of the posts you pulled up, this one seemed the most promising to me. The "this is how I would play as scum" line is odd, considering she often says she's really good as scum (I don't know why she'd give that away, or at least it has the pretense of giving us more information than it does).

That makes sense. I have a lot to learn about being town, and haven't had much practice. I play town the way I play scum because that's what I know how to do, so you're probably always going to have this problem with me. I'll give you a freebie, though. If I come out guns blazing earlier than usual, either the person is obviously pinging my radar or I'm up to something.

[DPR]

Voting Pac, I wanted to take a look at what Lily was talking about with DPR's questions towards him - really hoping to reinforce my vote. Instead, I came away with more questions than answers. This in particular caught my attention:

The mafia already know exactly why there was no NK? Really?

In my experience, the scum gets a note from the mod saying, "your NK failed," not, "sorry, but you hit the self-protecting doc," or "whoops! You hit a one use vest, try again tomorrow!"

My feeling is the town should simply be grateful for the lack of a NK, and move on. I think it could very well be a townie slipping up and giving the scum info rather than the other way around. Really, much more likely that a townie has specific info on why a NK didn't go thru than the scum. In fact, in DPR's own game, I knew why the scum's NK failed N1 because I prevented it - the scum had no idea that the Pumpkin That Shoots Laser Beams Out Of It's Ass shut them down.

In fact, the only slip up I can envision over the lack of NK's coming from scum would be this sort of phishing for info about it. So much so that I'm gonna...

unvote

vote: DPR

I don't like this one bit. Slats, you not a simple thinker, or a simple player, so I find it suspicious that you imply that the mafia tried and failed at their NK attempt because they hit the player that a Doc covered, or a vest.

Especially when everyone knows that this is a conversion game. In most of the conversion games that you have played, did the mafia give up a NK for a conversion attempt?

And, the mafia would know exactly what happened in that instance.

I also find your vote on me to be oppotunistic, like you were looking for a cheap reason to slide a vote in on me and bring me closer to lynch.

I'm FOS'ing Slats for now, and will wait to see how he responds before I vote.

In my experience, Slats is usually very well thought out and if he is not certain of something, he'll make that clear.

[Smashmouth]

Do you think anything I'm saying about Lily has merit or am I nuts?

Well your pretty much nuts but ill go back and give it another read for ya

[slats]

I don't like this one bit. Slats, you not a simple thinker, or a simple player, so I find it suspicious that you imply that the mafia tried and failed at their NK attempt because they hit the player that a Doc covered, or a vest.

Especially when everyone knows that this is a conversion game. In most of the conversion games that you have played, did the mafia give up a NK for a conversion attempt?

And, the mafia would know exactly what happened in that instance.

I also find your vote on me to be oppotunistic, like you were looking for a cheap reason to slide a vote in on me and bring me closer to lynch.

I'm FOS'ing Slats for now, and will wait to see how he responds before I vote.

In my experience, Slats is usually very well thought out and if he is not certain of something, he'll make that clear.

I'll concede that there are instances where the mafia may know exactly what happened, but there are far more instances where they would have no idea why their NK didn't go thru. And for those, it's more likely that a townie has the info - not the scum. I don't see any real benefit to the town discussing the lack of NK's. Maybe you can fill us in.

And you're either spinning when you call this a conversion game, or you know a lot more than me about what's going on behind the scenes.

Here's what SMC has to say:

What makes matters worse is the overbearing Wizard and that prissy Good Witch of the North have arrived at the castle, and disguised themselves as well. They are neither Ozite nor Outcast and watch and wait. The Wicked Witch and Dorothy need the Wizard

[Smashmouth]

PAC I like the points you make on Lily its basicly the same Points I made about Bleedin last game and no one seemed to jump on and vote with me. Maybe I should have pushed a bit more like your doing here.

Im going to Vote Lily and see what kind of response it gets.

[slats]

I don't like this one bit. Slats, you not a simple thinker, or a simple player, so I find it suspicious that you imply that the mafia tried and failed at their NK attempt because they hit the player that a Doc covered, or a vest.

Just wanted to add that I'm not implying anything here. Like I said, I see no reason to discuss the reasons behind a lack of NK's, and simply cited two common examples of failed NK attempts where the scum wouldn't know anything other than the fact that their attempt failed.

You finding that "suspicious," reads to me like you're still phishing.

You're the one who said that the "mafia already know exactly why," their NK failed. I think you're the one who should be explaining your position. Because that reads like a slip from someone who knows exactly why their NK failed to me.

[Dan.]

kill me

Do you have any read on Lily yet, level-headed one?

[JustInFudge]

Dropping the PM thingy, obviously SMC isnt cool with it, Lily is somewhat right that it might not be safe to discuss, I'll just chalk it up to flavor and move on. After thinking about it, I dont think Runin would say something like that if he was scum anyway...maybe thats a little wifom but wouldnt make a ton of sense to use it that way.

I'm sticking with Pac for now. There are 7 others not voting so I'm hoping Monday will bring some activity, but I just question some of his play thus far, seems off.

[Jets Voice of Reason]

So basicly what your saying is , you got nothin.

Basically i am saying you have not started to play yet this game.

I don't especially love these two candidates. They are kind of at the middle of my list of suspects right now. If i had to choose one right now it would be DPR But i would still think it's early enough to choose a 3rd candidate.

[Naeann]

Dropping the PM thingy, obviously SMC isnt cool with it, Lily is somewhat right that it might not be safe to discuss, I'll just chalk it up to flavor and move on. After thinking about it, I dont think Runin would say something like that if he was scum anyway...maybe thats a little wifom but wouldnt make a ton of sense to use it that way.

I'm sticking with Pac for now. There are 7 others not voting so I'm hoping Monday will bring some activity, but I just question some of his play thus far, seems off.

I chalked that up to him spending two plus days trying to save his computer?

[Dan.]

Basically i am saying you have not started to play yet this game.

I don't especially love these two candidates. They are kind of at the middle of my list of suspects right now. If i had to choose one right now it would be DPR But i would still think it's early enough to choose a 3rd candidate.

His more recent posts were leaning more townish to me. Or I may be reading too much into things.

[JustInFudge]

I chalked that up to him spending two plus days trying to save his computer?

No...not that, he's playing much more hesitant than usual. Pac is typically more aggressive and ready to pull the trigger at any moment. Its got nothing to do with his obsession with ghey midget porn.

[Naeann]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pac2566

Do you think anything I'm saying about Lily has merit or am I nuts?

The Lost game she played confused townie with a f'ed up role that most people bought. "conversion finder" and "some sort of vest thing that I don't know how it works" Pac made a very good case against her which she then tried to knock down as nothing and that Pac just has it out for her from last game. As far as the post of hers you quoted...

First she says she has alot to learn about being town and "out of practice" though she just finished a game as town? Then she says she plays it the exact same way she plays scum. Contractiction much? According to her own words she plays a very good scum.. apparently so as she had just about everyone fooled in the Lost game with the confused innocent act. She then finishes up that post saying absolutely nothing. Her "freebie" is saying if she goes guns blazing at someone she either finds them scummy or she is scum and up to something... No!?! Really?

I look at it this way... more people found her suspicious though did nothing about it in the predator game when she WAS innocent than in this game and Lost game where they thought she was playing a bit off but "that's just Lily". The fact that even Runin is confused by her play keeps my suspicions on her. I'm liking her far more than anyone else at this point. Same reasons as yesterday with more added on now.

Vote Lily.

[Naeann]

No...not that, he's playing much more hesitant than usual. Pac is typically more aggressive and ready to pull the trigger at any moment. Its got nothing to do with his obsession with ghey midget porn.

Lol.. we had to keep him and Monkey man on a leash in the predator qt... They wanted to blow things up.

[Naeann]

And it seems to me he's going pretty strongly against Lily? Is he usually worse than that?

[DPR]

I'll concede that there are instances where the mafia may know exactly what happened, but there are far more instances where they would have no idea why their NK didn't go thru. And for those, it's more likely that a townie has the info - not the scum. I don't see any real benefit to the town discussing the lack of NK's. Maybe you can fill us in.

I've found it to be the opposite, where the mafia are given the information so that they can put a plan into action. Your scenario is possible, and I'm not saying it isn't, but I feel like it is more probable that the mafia does know what is happening.

I'm basing that on the setup - you have Ozites, Outcasts, and two Neutrals. If SMC was hiding info from the mafia, he's have to hide things from the Ozites as well for balance. IMO, adding in the Neutral factor into a guessing game would make it unbalanced. I think it is more likely that both teams know what they are supposed to do, especially since the Ozites know who the Wicked Witch is and are protecting protect "her". Does that make sense?

And you're either spinning when you call this a conversion game, or you know a lot more than me about what's going on behind the scenes.

When I read whay SMC posted, I definitely get the impression that both teams are trying to find (and I'm counting "find" as synonymous with conversion) to bring them onto their side.

He has clearly stated that the Wizard and the Witch will be beneficial to the side that finds them. What other scenario would it be if not conversion?

This is no straight up conversion game. Every player who started this game as town will end the game as town. That's a given. We do have two players who are not aligned. Do they become aligned when the Dorothy or the WWoW finds them? That's a plausible conclusion, but not the only one. And I don't think the scum are giving up NK attempts in their effort to find those two players. I think that's a major stretch.

Or you know something the town doesn't know.

Okay, so you end your post with innuendo.

1. You vote for me based on my thoery, but then give your theory by stating that the game is no straight conversion game? It's contradictory, and misleading - I never said it was a classic conversion game, which you know very well because you've described what I did mean above.

2. Then, you describe my theory again by re-stating it and saying that is is plausible. This is a double-contradiction, and might well be a slip on your part.

3. You end by saying that it is a "major stretch" that the scum would give up a NK attempt for a chance to convert the Wizard or Witch. I'll grant you, I'ts just my theory, but I don't feel like it's a major stretch - it's certainly been done before.

Then you close by trying to make me look suspicious again.

Overall, I just don't like your responses and I don't feel like you've added anything to your argument.

My FOS is still on Slats.

[Pac]

No...not that, he's playing much more hesitant than usual. Pac is typically more aggressive and ready to pull the trigger at any moment. Its got nothing to do with his obsession with ghey midget porn.

Dude what are you talking about?? I spent over an hour re-reading Lily and pasting all those quotes. Just because I'm not calling her names doesn't mean I'm not being aggressive.

[Pac]

I don't especially love these two candidates. They are kind of at the middle of my list of suspects right now. If i had to choose one right now it would be DPR But i would still think it's early enough to choose a 3rd candidate.

Care to share your suspect list?

[slats]

I've found it to be the opposite, where the mafia are given the information so that they can put a plan into action. Your scenario is possible, and I'm not saying it isn't, but I feel like it is more probable that the mafia does know what is happening.

Now you're back-tracking. You said before the that scum knew exactly what happened with their NK, now you're saying that they probably know. In my experience, the scum only knows that their NK failed. Rarely anything more.

I'm basing that on the setup - you have Ozites, Outcasts, and two Neutrals. If SMC was hiding info from the mafia, he's have to hide things from the Ozites as well for balance. IMO, adding in the Neutral factor into a guessing game would make it unbalanced. I think it is more likely that both teams know what they are supposed to do, especially since the Ozites know who the Wicked Witch is and are protecting protect "her". Does that make sense?

Hasn't he done exactly that? We opened the day scene with no NK's, and no other information. Obviously, he's "hidden" from the town whether the scum even attempted a NK last night.

When I read whay SMC posted, I definitely get the impression that both teams are trying to find (and I'm counting "find" as synonymous with conversion) to bring them onto their side.

He has clearly stated that the Wizard and the Witch will be beneficial to the side that finds them. What other scenario would it be if not conversion?

First, players going from neutral to aligned does not make this a conversion game.

Second, I do believe that's the most likely scenario, and said as much. Nothing more, nothing less. You're the one who's trying to spin that into something more with this nonsense:

1. You vote for me based on my thoery, but then give your theory by stating that the game is no straight conversion game? It's contradictory, and misleading - I never said it was a classic conversion game, which you know very well because you've described what I did mean above.

2. Then, you describe my theory again by re-stating it and saying that is is plausible. This is a double-contradiction, and might well be a slip on your part.

Double-contradiction? Slip up on my part? C'mon man. What could I have possibly slipped? You're trying to turn things around because I accused you of potentially slipping up by saying that the scum knows exactly why their NK failed last night.

And there are other possibilities for the unaligned. Maybe they have an item or grant a wish (or whatever else might fit the material) for whoever finds them first, but they remain on their own. But that's splitting hairs.

My comments about conversion games were based on yours:

Especially when everyone knows that this is a conversion game. In most of the conversion games that you have played, did the mafia give up a NK for a conversion attempt?

This is why I said this isn't a straight conversion game. Townies aren't being converted, two specific players are being sought after. Seems to me that Dorothy and the WWoW have the ability to look for them (based on SMC's opening scene), and that the scum as a team would have their NK as a separate power.

With 18 people in the game, they're going to make a guess that they'll hit on one of those roles? Makes very little sense.

What makes more sense is that the scum don't know what happened, and they want to find out.

So yeah, I think it's a major stretch.

3. You end by saying that it is a "major stretch" that the scum would give up a NK attempt for a chance to convert the Wizard or Witch. I'll grant you, I'ts just my theory, but I don't feel like it's a major stretch - it's certainly been done before.

Then you close by trying to make me look suspicious again.

Overall, I just don't like your responses and I don't feel like you've added anything to your argument.

My FOS is still on Slats.

Actually, the whole post was intended to show why I feel you're suspicious.

[JustInFudge]

Lol.. we had to keep him and Monkey man on a leash in the predator qt... They wanted to blow things up.

Dude what are you talking about?? I spent over an hour re-reading Lily and pasting all those quotes. Just because I'm not calling her names doesn't mean I'm not being aggressive.

Its more about what Nae just posted. You had the perfect opportunity to be Pac and you didnt. Feel like someone was pulling the reigns.

[Bleedin Green]

Someones hungover right about now.

Nah, slept straight through the hangover.... it's a gift.

[Pac]

Its more about what Nae just posted. You had the perfect opportunity to be Pac and you didnt. Feel like someone was pulling the reigns.

Is this feeling less, more, or equal to the one you had about I28?

[Dan.]

My god, these colored fonts are giving me headache. Haha.

Its more about what Nae just posted. You had the perfect opportunity to be Pac and you didnt. Feel like someone was pulling the reigns.

This could be a good point. Off the top of my head, I can't remember playing a game with Pac in which he was town. He was scum in the last game and the Thing game, and both times I felt like he was playing pretty even keel. It seems like everyone has this image of Pac as a super aggressive player when town. All I can think of is Pac as a more balanced guy, which could be because he's like this as scum, and that's what I'm used to from him.

vote: Pac

[DPR]

I'm switching to red to keep things from being confusing.

Now you're back-tracking. You said before the that scum knew exactly what happened with their NK, now you're saying that they probably know. In my experience, the scum only knows that their NK failed. Rarely anything more.

I guess we have different opinions on the matter. I'm still betting that the mafia probably does know exactly what happened last night. If you want to try and make hay out of my phrasing, knock yourself out.

Hasn't he done exactly that? We opened the day scene with no NK's, and no other information. Obviously, he's "hidden" from the town whether the scum even attempted a NK last night.

SMC has hidden the game setup from everybody, granted. But my point was that you can't keep too much infomration from either side if one is protecting player, and both are hunting for potential power allies. It just wouldn't balance out right.

For the record, I am saying that I believe that the mafia do know why there was no nightkill, and that this pint is what you are basing your vote for me on.

First, players going from neutral to aligned does not make this a conversion game.

Second, I do believe that's the most likely scenario, and said as much. Nothing more, nothing less. You're the one who's trying to spin that into something more with this nonsense:

Again, this is a double contradiction - you can't disagree with me over a point, and then agree with that point.

If you think it's the most likely scenario, as you have stated, then you knew exactly what I meant by it, and everythign you are doing is just trying to put me into a corner.

I never said that any other players owuld be converted - just the two. You making it look like anything else menas that you are doing the spinning.

Double-contradiction? Slip up on my part? C'mon man. What could I have possibly slipped? You're trying to turn things around because I accused you of potentially slipping up by saying that the scum knows exactly why their NK failed last night.

And there are other possibilities for the unaligned. Maybe they have an item or grant a wish (or whatever else might fit the material) for whoever finds them first, but they remain on their own. But that's splitting hairs.

My comments about conversion games were based on yours:

This is just classic two-stepping by a player who has lost the ability to bring focus to their point. Not good.

And I never said that their were not other possibilities, I just offered a theory on which possibility I felt was the strongest, which by the way, you have not done.

This is why I said this isn't a straight conversion game. Townies aren't being converted, two specific players are being sought after. Seems to me that Dorothy and the WWoW have the ability to look for them (based on SMC's opening scene), and that the scum as a team would have their NK as a separate power.

With 18 people in the game, they're going to make a guess that they'll hit on one of those roles? Makes very little sense.

What makes more sense is that the scum don't know what happened, and they want to find out.

So yeah, I think it's a major stretch.

Think whatever you like. Just please get off of the conversion thing...for the love of all that's holy.

And with 18 people in the game, yoiu think the odds of hitting the doc protecred person are higher than finding one of two Neutrals? Again, your points contradict. meh.

Actually, the whole post was intended to show why I feel you're suspicious.

We can go round and round, but I'd rather see what other's make of this. I'm leaning toward you playing a bit differently than I've seen before, but I'd like ot hear from those that have played with you more than I have.

[Pac]

This could be a good point. Off the top of my head, I can't remember playing a game with Pac in which he was town. He was scum in the last game and the Thing game, and both times I felt like he was playing pretty even keel. It seems like everyone has this image of Pac as a super aggressive player when town. All I can think of is Pac as a more balanced guy, which could be because he's like this as scum, and that's what I'm used to from him.

vote: Pac

lol... what a bunch of hogwash.