WIZARD OF OZ Mafia Game Thread

[DPR]

You're making this easy... You didn't "defend" the initial pot shot as you suggest. I don't recall you addressing the point about your actions surrounding the I28 lynch at all.

You quoted my response to Bleedin and tried to pick a fight over semantics. That's not "defending"... that's instigating an argument.

I still haven't heard anyone but you suggest that discussing what may have happened on N1 is a good idea.

Would you repeat that intital shot? There have been so many, I'm sure you understand. And I'm happy to address it...

So both you and Slats are coming after me becuase I said I thought it would be okay to discuss why there was no NK? That's your case?

My defense calling system is currently experiencing a high volume of atacks. Please be clear about your points, arguments, and votes, and I will get back to you as soon as is humanly possible. Have a nice day.

[Barmacral]

*PSST* Dude, you're not supposed to heh anymore.

Shucks, guess I won't go about abusing them then.

[Pac]

Would you repeat that intital shot? There have been so many, I'm sure you understand. And I'm happy to address it...

So both you and Slats are coming after me becuase I said I thought it would be okay to discuss why there was no NK? That's your case?

My defense calling system is currently experiencing a high volume of atacks. Please be clear about your points, arguments, and votes, and I will get back to you as soon as is humanly possible. Have a nice day.

of course sir:

"Interesting stuff Runnin... It didn't go unnoticed that he was an aggressive force in the I28 lynch while trying to give the impression he was an impartial observer...

also stands to reason that with his massive ego he'd think he was good enough to push the lynch along and stifle any suspicion that came his way as a result ".

I am not attacking you... I'm attacking the scum role you seem to have gotten in your initial PM from SMC.

[DPR]

of course sir:

"Interesting stuff Runnin... It didn't go unnoticed that he was an aggressive force in the I28 lynch while trying to give the impression he was an impartial observer...

also stands to reason that with his massive ego he'd think he was good enough to push the lynch along and stifle any suspicion that came his way as a result ".

I am not attacking you... I'm attacking the scum role you seem to have gotten in your initial PM from SMC.

And yet, no one else really thought that I was aggressive in I28's lynch. Nor did anyone else mention my massive ego or me pushing the lynch along while I stfled suspicion.

That was all you.

UNlike you, I have spent my time addressing points made about my play. Although, I'll grant you, it would have been easier if when people brought cases against me, I just attacked other people instead. Like you have. heh

[slats]

I thought I already did explain it - which is what we've argued about all day?

I figure the mafia knows perfectly well why there was no NK, so we are in no danger of giving them any info by figuring it out. I gave a nice long explanantion, but I'll have to go back a find it.

You can use the time to figure out how you are going to spin this post.

You didn't.

If you want to go back and explain it, that'll be pretty cool for me.

If instead you want to present a case on Pac, I'm all ears. I left his train to jump on yours. Convince me to jump back. There's no deadline yet, I don't think the town should rush into this. Everyone should weigh what they see here on their own. It's only D2, I'm not pretending that I'm sure of anything.

Although I am comfortable with my vote.

I figure you're the Scarecrow.

[DPR]

You didn't.

If you want to go back and explain it, that'll be pretty cool for me.

If instead you want to present a case on Pac, I'm all ears. I left his train to jump on yours. Convince me to jump back. There's no deadline yet, I don't think the town should rush into this. Everyone should weigh what they see here on their own. It's only D2, I'm not pretending that I'm sure of anything.

Although I am comfortable with my vote.

I figure you're the Scarecrow.

As per the rules: Similarly, You may not reveal the name you were provided with, not even a hint in the slightest degree

I'll do this though - I'm not mafia - do ya'll ever play with Lie Detectors? That ought to clear me up with them if there is one.

State your case and be specific and I will answer every point. That way we avoid a hide-and-go-seek pissing contest.

My case on Pac is simple:

1. He supported Runin's case against me, which I thought was crap.

2. He then tried to mince words a bit which made me suspicious.

3. Then he let go of that case entirely, in an unnatural way.

For the record, I don't see his case on Lily either. I don't have a read on Lily one way or the other yet, but Pac's cases are not holding water with me.

4. After Pac disappeared, and it was bvius that no one was going to bite on is case against me, you show up and vote me, placing me as the vote lead.

This took the heat off of Pac, and put the attention back on me.

But I can tell you that I have no idea why people are coming after me in this game. Everyone is entitled to theri opinion, but I've not heard anything compelling against me yet, even though I've collected 4 votes.

[SMC]

MOD NOTE: You may or may not have noticed that I revised the Game Rules Post to shorten days from 72 hours to 48 hours and weekends are no longer excluded, although I reserve the right to toll the deadline during the weekend.

Day 2 started Friday at 6:17 PM. We've had close to 200 posts since then (only 10 have been mine, including this one) with substantive participation and robust debate. In other words, people are playing the game.

However, since still a significant number of players haven't posted this weekend, I will view the deadline as partially tolled. So, rather than the deadline being 6:17 PM on Monday ...

DEADLINE SET FOR 12:15 P.M. TUESDAY, JUNE 29

Note, if there is game stagnation tomorrow I will push up the deadline to 12:15 A.M. Monday Night/Tuesday Morning

[Naeann]

I don't recall saying I "didn't understand" your moves. I asked why so gung ho about Slats and then voting for Pac? I asked you to bring up posts and you couldn't be bothered. Pac himself bothered to go back and find what you were talking about. He was suspicious of you both and said so all thru that big bad scary attack on you. You, however, had it out with Slats and then... BAM right back on Pac. I'd ask you to make it more clear why but you apparently can't be bothered. Its the very same "can't be bothered" attitude someone else is harboring.

I think Pac is right. You realize your case on Slats will get nowhere while a few other people have votes on Pac too. I don't see enough to make me wanna switch off of Lily. I like my vote where it is but you are acting like a doodoo head.

[Naeann]

And really DPR? You are getting pissy at someone for supposedly twisting words? HEH.

[DPR]

I don't recall saying I "didn't understand" your moves. I asked why so gung ho about Slats and then voting for Pac? I asked you to bring up posts and you couldn't be bothered. Pac himself bothered to go back and find what you were talking about. He was suspicious of you both and said so all thru that big bad scary attack on you. You, however, had it out with Slats and then... BAM right back on Pac. I'd ask you to make it more clear why but you apparently can't be bothered. Its the very same "can't be bothered" attitude someone else is harboring.

I think Pac is right. You realize your case on Slats will get nowhere while a few other people have votes on Pac too. I don't see enough to make me wanna switch off of Lily. I like my vote where it is but you are acting like a doodoo head.

Pac answered the question for you - In my view, Pac has acted the scummiest, so it's a moot point. But, even if Slats was my number one, and Pac my number 2, a vote toward Pac means something, and a vote toward Slats woud be pointless. You know this.

And no, if I didn't think Pac was acting scummy, I wouldn't have voted for him.

But most of all, it's D2, and frankly, I havn't seen a really strong case on anyone yet, which is why I'm curious as to why so many are brigin the heat. What's the point? You know that too.

[DPR]

And really DPR? You are getting pissy at someone for supposedly twisting words? HEH.

Touche', mon ami.

I'ts not my intention to be pissy, but I am tired. I'm going to slink back to the rathole and curl up in my hammock. G'night.

[Verbal]

Since Lily is green, I'll do all of my responses in Blue

All sarcasm aside, you do realize that none of the points you made actually go toward making a case, right? It looks like half a page of thinly veiled snark followed by a vote motivated by personal reasons.

If I'm wrong, I'm happy to re-adress.

But if I'm right, then i think it is time for you to be as good as your word, and get over old vendettas. I know I shouldn't have turned Runin loose to play Pirate Roulette with you, and I do feel kind of bad about that. On the other hand, it was so totally intoxicatingly evil, and I just couldn't help myself. *snickers*

Now you're trying to invent a reason for me to come after you as well? That's the worst case of metagaming I've seen in quite a while. Btw, you remember the result of that night? While the town lost the game, I remember blocking that NK. In other words, your ego would (and should) have lost the game for your team, if not for a totally inactive townie during endgame.

I'm switching to red to keep things from being confusing.

We can go round and round, but I'd rather see what other's make of this. I'm leaning toward you playing a bit differently than I've seen before, but I'd like ot hear from those that have played with you more than I have.

Here you are again trying to cuddle up to someone even while arguing with them.

And holy what the hell DPR? You are going so strongly against Slats and then out of left field you vote for Pac but keep a FOS on Slats so you don't look stupid for having argued with him for 5 pages?

Amen, sista.

Why go to all of the trouble of trying to make me look like the aggressor, when you brought up points against me first?

You try and paint it like I was on the offensive - but I had just finished fighting off Runin, and Verbal, so I guess I wasn't enthused about somebody else taking a crappy pot shot at me.

But, you decided to take that crappy pot shot anyway, so I defended.

I'll tell you what, so that we can all save posts and reading time, I'll ask that everyone with a case against me go ahead and use the convenient "bullet-point" style.

You list your reasons, and I'll answer them to the best of my ability. I'll try to keep the sarcasm low, but I can't gaurantee that a "heh" or a "meh" won't slip out. If you have problems with that, I'm sure that they are running very exciting and sensitive games over at www.OPRAH.com.

Ha. You "finished" fighting off Runin or myself? I don't know about Runin, but you're not done with me yet. In your last dozen or so posts, you've only done 1 thing pro-town, and that was your post for the lie detector. Every other post has been scummy.

[slats]

I originally voted you because of this section from a long post:

But why not discuss thta there was no NK? The mafia already know exactly why, so the town won't gve them any info. And, the speculation might well lead to combination of ideas, or cause a mafia to slip up.

IMO, speculation about the lack of an NK can be good.

I had two problems with it:

1.) You state that the mafia already know exactly why their NK failed. I can understand if you want to speculate that maybe they know why, but you didn't say that. You said they know. Why?

2.) What benefit is there to the town to discuss the possibilities of why there was no NK?

My feeling was that the mafia don't know why their (your) NK failed, and they (you) are hoping the town will fill you in.

Now it's a D2 type of thing. Nothing concrete. But you never answered those two points, and that's just been one component of some very poor defending on your part. A lot of word twisting, changing the focus of what I'm saying, and trying to flip it all back on me before voting Pac. My initial vote was just to get some insight on those points above a little bit, but your responses have me comfortable with it.

[Verbal]

Trying to explain in a different way is the mark of a townie trying to get their point across. Trying to wordsmith (what DPR is doing) is the mark of somebody trying to get a group distracted from their original intent.

[Lily]

I'm not mafia

I can tell you with 100% certainty that this is a true statement. And not because I am mafia, either. Or the cop. Or really much of a threat to the mafia. I am neither the cop, mafia, or much of a threat to the mafia. There's my lie detector statement, if there is one in this game.

With a deadline now in place, I will say it outright. The biggest trains at the moment are both no good. Neither of us is mafia. I will tell you what I am if I must, but I

[AVM]

Can someone explain the whole lie detector bit? Strikes me a lot like that post restriction thing put together by smash I think it was? a few games ago

[Lily]

Sure.

http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Lie_Detector

It's a pretty popular role on DM. Well, kind of popular. Personally, I hate it. But I've used it with restrictions.

[Bleedin Green]

MOD NOTE: You may or may not have noticed that I revised the Game Rules Post to shorten days from 72 hours to 48 hours and weekends are no longer excluded, although I reserve the right to toll the deadline during the weekend.

Day 2 started Friday at 6:17 PM. We've had close to 200 posts since then (only 10 have been mine, including this one) with substantive participation and robust debate. In other words, people are playing the game.

However, since still a significant number of players haven't posted this weekend, I will view the deadline as partially tolled. So, rather than the deadline being 6:17 PM on Monday ...

DEADLINE SET FOR 12:15 P.M. TUESDAY, JUNE 29

Note, if there is game stagnation tomorrow I will push up the deadline to 12:15 A.M. Monday Night/Tuesday Morning

Do what you want with this game, but you've got to cut people a break on the weekends. I understand fully wanting to keep this thing moving, but you also don't want to be make playing this game a chore for people. Let's be honest, most people here participate in this game as an exception to actually doing things like, you know... work.

[Bleedin Green]

Oh, and I've gotten all caught up, but having been a belligerent drunk throughout pretty much this entire weekend and being completely exhausted, I can't get into the whole analysis of this tonight. Assuming that I don't hate myself enough in the morning enough to not get up and go to work, I'll chime in at some point once I get settled in during the AM.

[AVM]

As per the rules: Similarly, You may not reveal the name you were provided with, not even a hint in the slightest degree

I'll do this though - I'm not mafia - do ya'll ever play with Lie Detectors? That ought to clear me up with them if there is one.

State your case and be specific and I will answer every point. That way we avoid a hide-and-go-seek pissing contest.

My case on Pac is simple:

1. He supported Runin's case against me, which I thought was crap.

2. He then tried to mince words a bit which made me suspicious.

3. Then he let go of that case entirely, in an unnatural way.

For the record, I don't see his case on Lily either. I don't have a read on Lily one way or the other yet, but Pac's cases are not holding water with me.

4. After Pac disappeared, and it was bvius that no one was going to bite on is case against me, you show up and vote me, placing me as the vote lead.

This took the heat off of Pac, and put the attention back on me.

But I can tell you that I have no idea why people are coming after me in this game. Everyone is entitled to theri opinion, but I've not heard anything compelling against me yet, even though I've collected 4 votes.

To me, it seemed like the attention began with the interaction between you and the monkey at the end of D1. Additionally, the 2nd GOOD point against you was your commentary on the lack of a NK. Finally, your case against Pac. He supported a case against you that you thought was crap? Isn't everyone going to feel that way about any case against them? I do somewhat follow point #3, but that's really it.

You and Lily with the lie detector thing is boggling to me, and as I see her as your biggest supporter right now (and also one of the worst looking players) -- doesn't scream don't vote me, to me. In fact, exactly the opposite.

vote: DPR

[Lily]

You do realize that suspecting anything just because it's new to you, even though it's documented, is pretty narrow minded, right?

Can't wait to mod here!

[JustInFudge]

FYI - I got a pretty busy day at work, I should be able to check the board though...but if I dont come around...you'll know why.

Nothing has changed my mind on Pac as of now.

[SMC]

Do what you want with this game, but you've got to cut people a break on the weekends. I understand fully wanting to keep this thing moving, but you also don't want to be make playing this game a chore for people. Let's be honest, most people here participate in this game as an exception to actually doing things like, you know... work.

MOD NOTE: Bleedin Sour Grapes, today is Monday and I said that the deadline is Tuesday. People are active on the weekends and I gave those who weren't a "break" by not imposing the deadline today.

[DPR]

I KNOW IT'S A LONG POST, BUT IT'S THE ONLY WAY I HAD TO DISCUSS EACH POINT BROUGHT UP AGAINST ME. PLEASE DON'T SKIM. THIS FIRST QUOTE FROM ME, IN RESPONSE TO PAC IS WHERE I DID ORIGINALLY ANSWER A LOT OF THE QUESTIONS THAT SLATS KEEPS ACCUSING ME OF NOT ANSWERING. I'LL ALSO ANSWER THEM IN MORE DETAIL BELOW.

Why are you accusing me of "slight of hand"?

You posted, above, that you did notice that there was no nightkill (as did everyone) but that you didn't see a benefit to discussing it.

Then you go on to discuss it, by saying you doubt that the scum have to earn their nightkill.

Being confused about the pupose of saying any of that at all, I posted "Why post this?"

I wasn't leading you, or trying to frame you. I could have posted:

1. We all noticed that there was no NK. You putting it into words raises flags with me because it is redundant, which is sometimes a tell for somone that is trying to sound innocent.

2.Then you say that you don't see a benefit to discussing it. Why?

I can see the logic of not discussing the game setup on D1 - you don't want the town to slip and give the mafia any info.

But why not discuss thta there was no NK? The mafia already know exactly why, so the town won't gve them any info. And, the speculation might well lead to combination of ideas, or cause a mafia to slip up.

IMO, speculation about the lack of an NK can be good.

3. Even after you just said you didn't think we should discuss it, you throw in a little discussion about how you doubt the scum have to earn their NK.

So you are encouraging people not to discuss it, but you wanted to make sure that no one though that the scum would have to earn their NK?

The entire post was either redundant, or contradictory. So I asked why you posted it.

You reply with a remark about how myslef and others have crippled the town with outlandsih theories - okay, but that's not happening in this game, is it?

Then you accuse me of slight of hand because I said what I meant.

So, at this point, I have to ask what you think of the points I've just made, and ask why you did that. No slight of hand - just straight forward questions.

I originally voted you because of this section from a long post:

I had two problems with it:

1.) You state that the mafia already know exactly why their NK failed. I can understand if you want to speculate that maybe they know why, but you didn't say that. You said they know. Why?

2.) What benefit is there to the town to discuss the possibilities of why there was no NK?

My feeling was that the mafia don't know why their (your) NK failed, and they (you) are hoping the town will fill you in.

Now it's a D2 type of thing. Nothing concrete. But you never answered those two points, and that's just been one component of some very poor defending on your part. A lot of word twisting, changing the focus of what I'm saying, and trying to flip it all back on me before voting Pac. My initial vote was just to get some insight on those points above a little bit, but your responses have me comfortable with it.

I've re-posted my previous post with the "exactly why" quote bolded so that there are no mistakes.

I'd like to point out that the entire above post was a thoughtful response to Pac's claims against me.

Slats - in your 1st point, you ask about my use of "exactly why" and go on to ask how I would know that about the mafia.

I've said it before, but it's a phrasing issue - I could have said "the mafia know good and damn well why the NK didn't go through" or "I think the mafia know a lot more than you are giving them credit for".

No one but the mafia knows "exactly" what they know, and I think we need to be realistic about the use of a phrase vs. a slip.

Do you really think that any mafia would slip like that?

I've defended. I've called it a mis-read on your part based on phrasing. I'm not sure what else I can do for you here, but I'll be as clear as I can.

I do feel like the mafia know why their NK didn't go through, and I'll bet that it was a trade to try and aquire the Witch or the Wizard.

I've explained this as well, as you and I went round and round over you "misunderstanding" of my use of the phrase "conversion game".

I never siad that this was a conversion game - I did say that both sides were likely trying to convert (or something to that effect) the Wizard or the Witch.

That's twice you seem to have misunderstood what I have said.

You are usually sharper than that. I don't remember you having a lot of problems reading other people's posts.

I also think that it is telling that another player like Verbal is using our exchanges to try and twist my explanations into "wordsmithing" vs. "clarifying points".

That would be the same Verbla who has not contributed much of anything to the game other than to attack me.

I bring it up becuase I believe that somewhere in the Runin/Verbal/Pac/Slats group, we almost certainly have a mafia, if not two. Barm laying low does not look good for him, either.

2nd. Point: What benefit to the town is there in discussing the lack of NK?

I've blued my original post to Pac (above) where I summed this up.

The bottom line is, I feel like the mafia do know why the NK failed, and I think that by discussing it, we share our thoughts and perceptions about the matter, and stand a better chance of catching a mafia. I've seen it done and it gets back to the idea about "many heads are better than one."

It is up to each Town player not to slip with info, but we are all professionals here, right? The mafia also stands a chance of slipping, which would be very, very good for the town this early in the game.

My thought is, the more conversatin the better. It get's people active in the game and provides a nice evidence trail for later on when the real slips are more likely to happen.

I've already explained, but will do so again, why I think that the mafia do know why there was no NK:

We have a Witch and a Wizard up for grabs in some fashion. It would make complete sense for the mod to let them try to recruit a power role into their fold in place of a nightkill.

This early in the game, when they are at full strength, is the best time to do that. Plus, skipping a NK is wise to a degree because it gives the town no information.

Now, they could have been blocked, or hit a vest, or the person that the Doc was covering - but statistically, these are unlikely outcomes. Not impossible, but unlikely.

My opinion is, the mafia traded an early NK for a chance to gain the Wizared or Witch. I think that if we talk about that idea, we could logic out more info.

My question now is, why are so many people afraid to talk about it? The mafia surely does not want us to figure out what's going on, and I can't think of a better reason than that to discuss it.

I'm willing to accept that others have a different opinion, but I don't think that it makes a good case against me.

That's it - I"ll answer any questions, but I'm on record with everything stated above.

[Dan.]

I KNOW IT'S A LONG POST, BUT IT'S THE ONLY WAY I HAD TO DISCUSS EACH POINT BROUGHT UP AGAINST ME. PLEASE DON'T SKIM. THIS FIRST QUOTE FROM ME, IN RESPONSE TO PAC IS WHERE I DID ORIGINALLY ANSWER A LOT OF THE QUESTIONS THAT SLATS KEEPS ACCUSING ME OF NOT ANSWERING. I'LL ALSO ANSWER THEM IN MORE DETAIL BELOW.

I've re-posted my previous post with the "exactly why" quote bolded so that there are no mistakes.

I'd like to point out that the entire above post was a thoughtful response to Pac's claims against me.

Slats - in your 1st point, you ask about my use of "exactly why" and go on to ask how I would know that about the mafia.

I've said it before, but it's a phrasing issue - I could have said "the mafia know good and damn well why the NK didn't go through" or "I think the mafia know a lot more than you are giving them credit for".

No one but the mafia knows "exactly" what they know, and I think we need to be realistic about the use of a phrase vs. a slip.

Do you really think that any mafia would slip like that?

I've defended. I've called it a mis-read on your part based on phrasing. I'm not sure what else I can do for you here, but I'll be as clear as I can.

I do feel like the mafia know why their NK didn't go through, and I'll bet that it was a trade to try and aquire the Witch or the Wizard.

I've explained this as well, as you and I went round and round over you "misunderstanding" of my use of the phrase "conversion game".

I never siad that this was a conversion game - I did say that both sides were likely trying to convert (or something to that effect) the Wizard or the Witch.

That's twice you seem to have misunderstood what I have said.

You are usually sharper than that. I don't remember you having a lot of problems reading other people's posts.

I also think that it is telling that another player like Verbal is using our exchanges to try and twist my explanations into "wordsmithing" vs. "clarifying points".

That would be the same Verbla who has not contributed much of anything to the game other than to attack me.

I bring it up becuase I believe that somewhere in the Runin/Verbal/Pac/Slats group, we almost certainly have a mafia, if not two. Barm laying low does not look good for him, either.

2nd. Point: What benefit to the town is there in discussing the lack of NK?

I've blued my original post to Pac (above) where I summed this up.

The bottom line is, I feel like the mafia do know why the NK failed, and I think that by discussing it, we share our thoughts and perceptions about the matter, and stand a better chance of catching a mafia. I've seen it done and it gets back to the idea about "many heads are better than one."

It is up to each Town player not to slip with info, but we are all professionals here, right? The mafia also stands a chance of slipping, which would be very, very good for the town this early in the game.

My thought is, the more conversatin the better. It get's people active in the game and provides a nice evidence trail for later on when the real slips are more likely to happen.

I've already explained, but will do so again, why I think that the mafia do know why there was no NK:

We have a Witch and a Wizard up for grabs in some fashion. It would make complete sense for the mod to let them try to recruit a power role into their fold in place of a nightkill.

This early in the game, when they are at full strength, is the best time to do that. Plus, skipping a NK is wise to a degree because it gives the town no information.

Now, they could have been blocked, or hit a vest, or the person that the Doc was covering - but statistically, these are unlikely outcomes. Not impossible, but unlikely.

My opinion is, the mafia traded an early NK for a chance to gain the Wizared or Witch. I think that if we talk about that idea, we could logic out more info.

My question now is, why are so many people afraid to talk about it? The mafia surely does not want us to figure out what's going on, and I can't think of a better reason than that to discuss it.

I'm willing to accept that others have a different opinion, but I don't think that it makes a good case against me.

That's it - I"ll answer any questions, but I'm on record with everything stated above.

There are a lot of different reasons why a NK might have failed. I would think the fact that nobody wants to discuss it with you should be a sign to you. It's a little bit odd to me that you feel so strongly about the NK-traded-for-conversion theory after only one night. I could definitely see your points if we just came out of our second or third NKless night, but I think it's jumping the gun a bit after only N1.

[Dan.]

On that note, I'll vote DPR for now. I wasn't getting scummy vibes from him earlier, but I think I can buy the case on him at the moment.

[Dan.]

I'd also like more reactions to the lie detector thing. Dpr wanted us to claim this in star wars so I may be more suspicious of it due to that.

[DPR]

On that note, I'll vote DPR for now. I wasn't getting scummy vibes from him earlier, but I think I can buy the case on him at the moment.

Dan, just to be clear, I am explaining my ideas - I never tried to push the town into doing them, I just wanted to explain where my head was at.

Of course, every time i try to be really clear or explain myself, i get another vote. meh

As far as the Lie Detector thing goes, I've figured it was bound to pop up after the SW game discussion, and this is the perfect theme for it. It's a great role.

I do wish people would please try to understand what I am saying and not instantly think that I am mafia. Damn.

[Bleedin Green]

I am currently in an office with no working A/C. It's possible my contributions may suffer, because I think I may be about to die.

[Bleedin Green]

MOD NOTE: Bleedin Sour Grapes, today is Monday and I said that the deadline is Tuesday. People are active on the weekends and I gave those who weren't a "break" by not imposing the deadline today.

I was speaking more towards your overall commentary as opposed to this specific deadline. And I don't have sour grapes about anything, it seems as though you're the one who can't get over it, friend.

[SMC]

OFFICIAL VOTE COUNT--DAY 2

DPR (6) -- Barm, Runin, Verbal, Slats, AVM, Dan

Smash (2) -- JVOR, Vicious

Lily (4) -- Pac, Smash, Nae, Sharrow

JiF (1) -- CTM

Pac (3) -- JiF, Lily, DPR

THOSE NOT VOTING: BG, Hess

With 18 Ozites in the Castle, it takes 10 to lynch.

DEADLINE IN 26 HOURS, 35 MINUTES

[Bleedin Green]

Looking back at the current leading cases, I've found I don't really feel any differently about Pac or Lily than I did earlier. Pac had me concerned early on, but I've since become ok with his play, so I'm not really feeling a vote there. Lily I can see the case against, just don't see it as particularly strong and feel like she's no more scummy to me this time around than any other time. Of course it is worth watching since I don't want to let someone off just because they always appear scummy, but I don't want to lynch someone for that reason alone either.

As far as DPR, I've gone back and forth on my feelings on him. I think I kind of see what he's saying with some points, but he's pushing a little too hard on some pretty flimsy points. The fact that the majority of the people he's played with previously seem to have a scummy vibe from him is also something that's absolutely caught my attention. I feel good enough about that relative to the other options to help turn up the pressure on him here, so will throw a vote that way.

Vote: DPR

[slats]

The bottom line is, I feel like the mafia do know why the NK failed, and I think that by discussing it, we share our thoughts and perceptions about the matter, and stand a better chance of catching a mafia. I've seen it done and it gets back to the idea about "many heads are better than one."

It is up to each Town player not to slip with info, but we are all professionals here, right? The mafia also stands a chance of slipping, which would be very, very good for the town this early in the game. [..]

We have a Witch and a Wizard up for grabs in some fashion. It would make complete sense for the mod to let them try to recruit a power role into their fold in place of a nightkill.

This early in the game, when they are at full strength, is the best time to do that. Plus, skipping a NK is wise to a degree because it gives the town no information.

Now, they could have been blocked, or hit a vest, or the person that the Doc was covering - but statistically, these are unlikely outcomes. Not impossible, but unlikely.

My opinion is, the mafia traded an early NK for a chance to gain the Wizared or Witch. I think that if we talk about that idea, we could logic out more info.

My question now is, why are so many people afraid to talk about it? The mafia surely does not want us to figure out what's going on, and I can't think of a better reason than that to discuss it.

Tried to pare this down.

From the few times playing with you, I know that you are capable of getting a theory in your head and believing that it's true. My feelings are similar to Dan's, where I think you're drawing way too much from the lack of NK's N1. There are too many possibilities to say you know that they know exactly why their NK failed. And maybe that's a phrase turn to you, but being that sure of something this early in the game is going to catch my attention.

To the second point - every townie comes complete in this game with a specific, important piece of information that they have to be extremely careful about not letting slip. Maybe one of them knows exactly why Dorothy's NK didn't go thru last night - as in your game, when I prevented all NK's on N1. No reason for them to talk about that, or be asked about it.

I'd wait a couple phases before testing out a theory like this, rather than being so sure of it so early. Maybe that is just a difference in opinion about how the game should be played, but on D2, it's the best I've got so far.

I worked all weekend, and I'm off today. Once I finish my coffee this morning, I'm out of here. I'm gonna leave my vote where it is for the time being.

[Pac]

The next time I see a "lie detector" in a game will be the first. I'm not saying it's impossible but I am thinking highly unlikely. Trying to use that as a way to get out of pressure seems contrived.

DPR is 1A for me and seems to be pulling away so I'll:

Unvote

Vote DPR

[slats]

I'd also like more reactions to the lie detector thing. Dpr wanted us to claim this in star wars so I may be more suspicious of it due to that.

For the record, I'm completely ignoring the lie detector thing until I see some reason to stop ignoring it. And then I'll steer clear from answering any questions about deviant sexual behavior.