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NIGHT STALKER

The Yankees core four......

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Jesus said the world be deceived, but youtube = TRUTH?

One thing I will say is that people that do not pay too much attention to a sport are not qualified to nickel and dime over which player is better, but they are exactly the type of people that should tell you who belongs in the HOF. If somebody that doesn't intently follow the sport is intimately familiar with a player's accomplishments that tells me they deserved some consideration for eternal remembrance.

I was sarcastic about youtube.

Also, im still waiting for your answer....you know what im talking about.

(but I know better)

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I was sarcastic about youtube.

Also, im still waiting for your answer....you know what im talking about.

(but I know better)

Actually, you don't.

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If villain_the_foe was from Topeka, Kansas instead of the Bronx, I would agree.

What Hector just said! I respect how you can disagree with me in one regard but have enough brain cells to know that if you're from the very boro that knowing the history is pretty much self explanatory. You're obviously not a moron.

:swing:

Edited by villain_the_foe

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Actually, you don't.

Show me then, with your answer. lol.

You cant, cuz im right.

And dont respond back about "how im NOT right".....Just prove it then.

Edited by villain_the_foe

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Show me then, with your answer. lol.

You cant, cuz im right.

And dont respond back about "how im NOT right".....Just prove it then.

I have more productive things to do. I hear that beating your head against a wall only burns 150 calories an hour.

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I have more productive things to do. I hear that beating your head against a wall only burns 150 calories an hour.

(Thats funny, I can point to like 30 replies from you that show otherwise)

Yeah,........right. Mind your business next time and save yourself some calories in that head of yours.

Or go to youtube and learn something. :-)

Oh, and if responding to me is so counter-productive, then do us both a favor an never respond to me, or write about me, or think about me. Pay me AND what I say no mind. Either do that or just give me my answer instead of waiting to send stupid comments my way just to talk shyte though on the inside you know that you didnt respond to my posting because I was right and you're too self-centered to admit it.

Now back on subject. I think Posada and Pettitte are HOF'ers in my opinion.

Edited by villain_the_foe

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What Hector just said! I respect how you can disagree with me in one regard but have enough brain cells to know that if you're from the very boro that knowing the history is pretty much self explanatory. You're obviously not a moron.

Actually, that's not at all what I'm saying.

Dom's point was that for you, as someone who does not closely follow baseball, to be familiar with Posada's accomplishments, may be a sign that he should get consideration for the HOF. My point is that if you were from anywhere except for the borough in which the man has played for the past 15 years, that argument would have more merit, as you will obviously hear more about him and have some hometown bias.

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What if Pettitte wins the Cy Young this year? Does that put him over the top?

He 9-2 with a 2.48 ERA so he's definitely in the conversation. He's well on his way to his third 20-win season, 21 wins this year would also put him right at 250 career wins.

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What if Pettitte wins the Cy Young this year? Does that put him over the top?

He 9-2 with a 2.48 ERA so he's definitely in the conversation. He's well on his way to his third 20-win season, 21 wins this year would also put him right at 250 career wins.

See CrazyCarl's response to that about cheaters. :rolleyes:

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See CrazyCarl's response to that about cheaters. :rolleyes:

So no one from either Red Sox "championship*" team from this decade can go to the Hall of Fame? (I can't wait for Schilling to be outed. It will be a beautiful day when that arrogant prick is disgraced.)

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See CrazyCarl's response to that about cheaters. :rolleyes:

Until they vote in a known PEDs user, my point is valid. I'm sorry if you don't know what a valid point is.

So no one from either Red Sox "championship*" team from this decade can go to the Hall of Fame? (I can't wait for Schilling to be outed. It will be a beautiful day when that arrogant prick is disgraced.)

Which Red Sox player that is a known steroid user would be HOF worthy? Manny? He shouldn't get in if Bonds and McGwire don't.

And what about Curt Schilling make you think he was a roid user? Certainly not his physique. Although, PEDs aside, I think Schilling is more worthy than Pettitte.

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Until they vote in a known PEDs user, my point is valid. I'm sorry if you don't know what a valid point is.

Which Red Sox player that is a known steroid user would be HOF worthy? Manny? He shouldn't get in if Bonds and McGwire don't.

And what about Curt Schilling make you think he was a roid user? Certainly not his physique. Although, PEDs aside, I think Schilling is more worthy than Pettitte.

Petitte's already won 22 more games while losing nine fewer so he's got a much better win percentage .635 to .597. Schilling's ERA is better 3.46 to 3.86 but he pitched many more years in the National League (13) than Petitte (3) did so it's a negligible difference.

Petitte's won more games in fewer years and he's got twice as many rings.

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What if Pettitte wins the Cy Young this year? Does that put him over the top?

He 9-2 with a 2.48 ERA so he's definitely in the conversation. He's well on his way to his third 20-win season, 21 wins this year would also put him right at 250 career wins.

We're not even half-way through the season and there are a half-dozen pitchers with similar stats to Pettitte, so I'm not going to handicap his chance for winning the Cy Young, but if he managed to, it would greatly help his chances.

Here's a list of SP's that at least overlapped eras with Pettitte and what I think their chances are for Hall induction:

First Ballot

Pedro Martinez

Randy Johnson

Greg Maddux

Tom Glavine

Second Ballot after BBWA Grandstanding

Roger Clemens

Near-lock

John Smoltz

Should be in

Curt Schilling (without rehashing that debate)

Jury is Still Out

Roy Halladay

Tim Lincecum

Johan Santana

CC Sabathia

On the outside looking in

Mike Mussina

Andy Pettitte

I personally think that Pettitte's postseason performance is somehwat overblown, in that while his overall numbers look good (18-9, 3.90), he has had some truly dreadful series - '97 and '98 vs. CLE, '99 vs. ATL, '01 vs. ARI, '02 vs. ANA.

He's been the model of consistency, in that this should be his 13th season of at least 14 wins, but I don't think he's ever been dominant enough to warrant selection to the HOF. Then again, I'm someone that values dominance over compiling and, in Pettitte's case, having the good fortune to play on a consistent winner. I also happen to think that Wins are one of the least useful indicators in judging relative pitching performances.

I wouldn't cry if they put him in, but having watched baseball intently (both leagues) for his entire career, I just don't think of Andy Pettitte as a HOF'er.

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We're not even half-way through the season and there are a half-dozen pitchers with similar stats to Pettitte, so I'm not going to handicap his chance for winning the Cy Young, but if he managed to, it would greatly help his chances.

Here's a list of SP's that at least overlapped eras with Pettitte and what I think their chances are for Hall induction:

First Ballot

Pedro Martinez

Randy Johnson

Greg Maddux

Tom Glavine

Second Ballot after BBWA Grandstanding

Roger Clemens

Near-lock

John Smoltz

Should be in

Curt Schilling (without rehashing that debate)

Jury is Still Out

Roy Halladay

Tim Lincecum

Johan Santana

CC Sabathia

On the outside looking in

Mike Mussina

Andy Pettitte

I personally think that Pettitte's postseason performance is somehwat overblown, in that while his overall numbers look good (18-9, 3.90), he has had some truly dreadful series - '97 and '98 vs. CLE, '99 vs. ATL, '01 vs. ARI, '02 vs. ANA.

He's been the model of consistency, in that this should be his 13th season of at least 14 wins, but I don't think he's ever been dominant enough to warrant selection to the HOF. Then again, I'm someone that values dominance over compiling and, in Pettitte's case, having the good fortune to play on a consistent winner. I also happen to think that Wins are one of the least useful indicators in judging relative pitching performances.

I wouldn't cry if they put him in, but having watched baseball intently (both leagues) for his entire career, I just don't think of Andy Pettitte as a HOF'er.

Mussina and Petitte>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Curt Schilling.

And it ain't that close. Mussina has 54 more wins and higher winning percentage by almost 40 points. He pitched his entire career in the American league.

Schilling is by far the most overrated pitcher ever.

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We're not even half-way through the season and there are a half-dozen pitchers with similar stats to Pettitte, so I'm not going to handicap his chance for winning the Cy Young, but if he managed to, it would greatly help his chances.

Here's a list of SP's that at least overlapped eras with Pettitte and what I think their chances are for Hall induction:

First Ballot

Pedro Martinez

Randy Johnson

Greg Maddux

Tom Glavine

Second Ballot after BBWA Grandstanding

Roger Clemens

Near-lock

John Smoltz

Should be in

Curt Schilling (without rehashing that debate)

Jury is Still Out

Roy Halladay

Tim Lincecum

Johan Santana

CC Sabathia

On the outside looking in

Mike Mussina

Andy Pettitte

I personally think that Pettitte's postseason performance is somehwat overblown, in that while his overall numbers look good (18-9, 3.90), he has had some truly dreadful series - '97 and '98 vs. CLE, '99 vs. ATL, '01 vs. ARI, '02 vs. ANA.

He's been the model of consistency, in that this should be his 13th season of at least 14 wins, but I don't think he's ever been dominant enough to warrant selection to the HOF. Then again, I'm someone that values dominance over compiling and, in Pettitte's case, having the good fortune to play on a consistent winner. I also happen to think that Wins are one of the least useful indicators in judging relative pitching performances.

I wouldn't cry if they put him in, but having watched baseball intently (both leagues) for his entire career, I just don't think of Andy Pettitte as a HOF'er.

JH, would you consider Hank Aaron a dominant player or a compiler or maybe both? He only won 1 MVP and never hit 50 HR's in a season in his career.

For me, I always looked at Aaron as a player looking in when compared to Mays and Mantle.

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Petitte's already won 22 more games while losing nine fewer so he's got a much better win percentage .635 to .597. Schilling's ERA is better 3.46 to 3.86 but he pitched many more years in the National League (13) than Petitte (3) did so it's a negligible difference.

Petitte's won more games in fewer years and he's got twice as many rings.

This will be my only post on Schilling, as I have gone through this enough with you and neither of our opinions is obviously going to change. I just need to touch on your flimsy point here:

- Pettitte, at this point, has started 36 more games than Schilling in his career

Schilling has a decision rate of 83% in games started x 36 = ~30

Schilling's career winning percentage is .597 x 30 = ~18

So, given this extrapolation (that relies on too many assumptions to have any real value), that would give Pettitte approximately 4 more wins than Schilling in an equal number of games started. That is despite Pettitte pitching for teams with a winning percentage of probably .100 points better than Schilling's. I'm not doing adding it all up right now, but I know that the Phillies were under .500 for Schilling's tenure there.

If you really want to talk about winning percentage, take a look at their postseason numbers.

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This will be my only post on Schilling, as I have gone through this enough with you and neither of our opinions is obviously going to change. I just need to touch on your flimsy point here:

- Pettitte, at this point, has started 36 more games than Schilling in his career

Schilling has a decision rate of 83% in games started x 36 = ~30

Schilling's career winning percentage is .597 x 30 = ~18

So, given this extrapolation (that relies on too many assumptions to have any real value), that would give Pettitte approximately 4 more wins than Schilling in an equal number of games started. That is despite Pettitte pitching for teams with a winning percentage of probably .100 points better than Schilling's. I'm not doing adding it all up right now, but I know that the Phillies were under .500 for Schilling's tenure there.

If you really want to talk about winning percentage, take a look at their postseason numbers.

There's several truckloads of guys who belong in the Hall of Fame ahead of Curt Schilling.

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JH, would you consider Hank Aaron a dominant player or a compiler or maybe both? He only won 1 MVP and never hit 50 HR's in a season in his career.

For me, I always looked at Aaron as a player looking in when compared to Mays and Mantle.

I think Aaron is the perfect combination of the two. I agree that there are many players more dominant, but Aaron was at or near the top of the league for a very long time.

- hit over .300 for his (lengthy) career and won 2 batting titles

- led the league in HR's 4 times, finished top-5 ten other times

- led the league in RBI's 4 times, 6 other top-5 finishes

- les the league in Runs Scored 3 times, 9 other top-5 finishes

- won an MVP, finished in the top-5 seven other times (7th All-time in MVP Shares)

- was an All-Star every year, save for his first and last seasons

Definitely not a compiler, unlike say, a Rafael Palmiero.

As far as the 50 HR's, the only people to hit 50+ in a season while Aaron was playing were Mays (twice), Mantle (twice), and Maris. Not bad company.

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I think Aaron is the perfect combination of the two. I agree that there are many players more dominant, but Aaron was at or near the top of the league for a very long time.

- hit over .300 for his (lengthy) career and won 2 batting titles

- led the league in HR's 4 times, finished top-5 ten other times

- led the league in RBI's 4 times, 6 other top-5 finishes

- les the league in Runs Scored 3 times, 9 other top-5 finishes

- won an MVP, finished in the top-5 seven other times (7th All-time in MVP Shares)

- was an All-Star every year, save for his first and last seasons

Definitely not a compiler, unlike say, a Rafael Palmiero.

As far as the 50 HR's, the only people to hit 50+ in a season while Aaron was playing were Mays (twice), Mantle (twice), and Maris. Not bad company.

Everything has to be taken into consideration though was what I was trying to get at. Aaron played his home games in match box stadiums where his homerun totals are magnified...could you see him playing in the "old" Yankee Stadium? His HR totals would have been more compared to Joe DiMaggio's.

Mantle would have had a field day in the dimensions below in the Aarons's home ballpark...and you have to take into consideration before you point out the short foul poles in Yankee Stadium that Mantle was not a pull hitter by any stretch of the imagination...many, and I mean many of his fly balls were caught 450 ft away for outs...he would have had a field day in this "new" Yankees Stadium as well. You just have to take a lot into consideration when comparing players...a lot of variables come into play.

Aaron's home fields...

milwaukeecountystadium1.png

fultoncounty.jpg

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Everything has to be taken into consideration though was what I was trying to get at. Aaron played his home games in match box stadiums where his homerun totals are magnified...could you see him playing in the "old" Yankee Stadium? His HR totals would have been more compared to Joe DiMaggio's.

Mantle would have had a field day in the dimensions below in the Aarons's home ballpark...and you have to take into consideration before you point out the short foul poles in Yankee Stadium that Mantle was not a pull hitter by any stretch of the imagination...many, and I mean many of his fly balls were caught 450 ft away for outs...he would have had a field day in this "new" Yankees Stadium as well. You just have to take a lot into consideration when comparing players...a lot of variables come into play.

There is some truth in Atlanta being a "Launching Pad" (being 1,000 ft above sea level helped), but by the same token, Milwaukee wasn't as friendly as its dimensions suggested, as the walls were 10' high.

Aaron's did see an uptick in HR/PA when moving to Atlanta, but his home and road splits are almost identical in 15,000 career plate appearances:

Home - .303/.379/.557, 385 HR, 1117 RBI, 1081 R

Away - .306/.369/.552, 370 HR, 1180 RBI, 1094 R

For all of the talk of how much Yankee stadium hurt him, Mantle's career OPS at home (1.007) is better than on the road (.964):

Home - .307/.431/.576, 259 HR, 711 RBI, 788 R

Away - .292/.416/.548, 264 HR, 733 RBI. 826 R

Amongst the 500 HR club, guys like Mel Ott (a ridiculous 1.718 home/road HR ratio), Ernie Banks (1.306 H/R ratio), Jimmie Foxx (1.272), or Frank Robinson (1.211) clearly enjoyed an advantage hitting at home, whereas Eddie Mathews (0.862), Ted Williams (.908), Mike Schmidt (.936), and even Babe Ruth (.946) suffered from a tougher home park.

Aaron's career ratio of 1.041 is closer to the mean for that group (1.058), while Mantle's .985 is slightly lower.

If you want to look at someone whose career was greatly helped by his home park, look no further than Jim Rice:

Home - .320/.374/.546

Away - .277/.330/.459

Edited by JohnnyHector

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Jesus said the world be deceived, but youtube = TRUTH?

One thing I will say is that people that do not pay too much attention to a sport are not qualified to nickel and dime over which player is better, but they are exactly the type of people that should tell you who belongs in the HOF. If somebody that doesn't intently follow the sport is intimately familiar with a player's accomplishments that tells me they deserved some consideration for eternal remembrance.

Actually, that's not at all what I'm saying.

Dom's point was that for you, as someone who does not closely follow baseball, to be familiar with Posada's accomplishments, may be a sign that he should get consideration for the HOF. My point is that if you were from anywhere except for the borough in which the man has played for the past 15 years, that argument would have more merit, as you will obviously hear more about him and have some hometown bias.

Now I clearly understand what you mean, though I still took it correctly. Not following baseball closely "today" doesnt mean that I never have. So just because the game sucks to me today (kinda like basketball today) doesnt mean that im not familiar with what could be considered HOF stats.

For example. I havent watched basketball closely since 2003. However, I know that Kobe Bryant is going to the HOF because I understand what is considered accomplishments of the game. I dont have to be a rabid basketball fan TODAY to know this. All I need to know are his accomplishments. He's being compared to Michael, a man that I knew very well watching ball heavily in the 90's and early 00's. That in itself should atleast let a person know that Kobe must be putting up some numbers and some championships to be in the same conversation with one of the greatest of all time. Shyte, you wouldnt even need stats for that lol. Its not hard to have such an opinion you see?

though in the end its still just my opinion. Instead of us going back and forth about me and what I know or dont know, lets stick to the point that both Posada and Pettitte have the stats to be considered, cuz at the end of the day it doesnt matter what I know, what matters are the stats right (the stats are bias...not me)? Fans of the game that watch it closely could still agree base on the stats that its possible.....so the comments about me and how closely I watch things doesnt matter and isnt worth even stating because its irrelevant. My awareness is obviously close enough, and if it wasnt I wouldnt have said anything. Go down to Yankee stadium and ask that question to insane baseball fans, they'll tell you the same. But then again it would be "bias" and no longer about how much they know now wouldnt it? Thats why its opinion. I guess we'll see soon enough.

Lets stick to the subject, how about that? Talking about the 1st law of thermodynamics when im talking about Posada and Pettitte only gives me a feeling that you watch me closer than you do baseball. It's old already Hector. And that goes for me too because I keep falling for it.

Edited by villain_the_foe

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For example. I havent watched basketball closely since 2003. However, I know that Kobe Bryant is going to the HOF because I understand what is considered accomplishments of the game. I dont have to be a rabid basketball fan TODAY to know this. All I need to know are his accomplishments. He's being compared to Michael, a man that I knew very well watching ball heavily in the 90's and early 00's. That in itself should atleast let a person know that Kobe must be putting up some numbers and some championships to be in the same conversation with one of the greatest of all time. Shyte, you wouldnt even need stats for that lol. Its not hard to have such an opinion you see?

The contributions of Posada and Pettitte to their team's championships are not even in the same stratosphere as Kobe or MJ.... they're more like Horace Grant and Ron Harper. You can't compare individual impact between basketball and baseball, because rarely can a baseball player make such a dominant individual impact, with few exceptions like Johnson/Schilling in '01, Joe Carter in '93, etc.

though in the end its still just my opinion. Instead of us going back and forth about me and what I know or dont know, lets stick to the point that both Posada and Pettitte have the stats to be considered, cuz at the end of the day it doesnt matter what I know, what matters are the stats right (the stats are bias...not me)? Fans of the game that watch it closely could still agree base on the stats that its possible.....so the comments about me and how closely I watch things doesnt matter and isnt worth even stating because its irrelevant. My awareness is obviously close enough, and if it wasnt I wouldnt have said anything. Go down to Yankee stadium and ask that question to insane baseball fans, they'll tell you the same. But then again it would be "bias" and no longer about how much they know now wouldnt it? Thats why its opinion. I guess we'll see soon enough.

The fact that you even suggested that there was any merit to debating Posada as the best catcher of all-time shows me that you're either uniformed, biased, crazy, or some combination of the 3. Like I said, you'd have a hard time making a strong argument that he's even in the top-5 of catchers in NY baseball history.

Lets stick to the subject, how about that? Talking about the 1st law of thermodynamics when im talking about Posada and Pettitte only gives me a feeling that you watch me closer than you do baseball. It's old already Hector. And that goes for me too because I keep falling for it.

The only common thread between you and baseball in my eyes is 'fantasy' and I enjoy the baseball version of it much more.

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The contributions of Posada and Pettitte to their team's championships are not even in the same stratosphere as Kobe or MJ.... they're more like Horace Grant and Ron Harper. You can't compare individual impact between basketball and baseball, because rarely can a baseball player make such a dominant individual impact, with few exceptions like Johnson/Schilling in '01, Joe Carter in '93, etc.

The fact that you even suggested that there was any merit to debating Posada as the best catcher of all-time shows me that you're either uniformed, biased, crazy, or some combination of the 3. Like I said, you'd have a hard time making a strong argument that he's even in the top-5 of catchers in NY baseball history.

The only common thread between you and baseball in my eyes is 'fantasy' and I enjoy the baseball version of it much more.

ok, show me then.

Edited by villain_the_foe

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ok, show me then.

Huh?

I was saying that I enjoy participating in Fantasy Baseball far more than I enjoy reading about the fantasy world that you live in... that's all.

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Huh?

I was saying that I enjoy participating in Fantasy Baseball far more than I enjoy reading about the fantasy world that you live in... that's all.

Ok. Thats cool, better yet, I know exactly how to solve this lil fantasy issue.

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Ok. Thats cool, better yet, I know exactly how to solve this lil fantasy issue.

To be honest, I'm not really enjoying fantasy baseball either this year. My teams are both for ****.

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To be honest, I'm not really enjoying fantasy baseball either this year. My teams are both for ****.

I can care less. You're about to make my ignore list anyway.

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Ignoring your obvious anti-Piazza bias, here are the players from his era for comparison:

Piazza - .308/.377/.545, 527 HR, 1335 RBI, 1048 R

I. Rodriguez - .299/.336/.470, 306 HR, 1285 RBI, 1325 R

Posada - .277/.379/.482, 252 HR, 990 RBI, 841 R

Javy Lopez - .287/.337/.491, 260 HR, 864 RBI, 674 R

162 Game Average

Piazza - .308, 36 HR, 113 RBI, 89 R

Pudge - .299, 20 HR, 86 RBI, 88 R

Posada - .277, 25 HR, 98 RBI, 83 R

Lopez - .287, 28 HR, 93 RBI, 73 R

Is Javy Lopez someone you would ever even consider for the HOF?

I don't know about Lopez, but I am pretty confident that both Piazza and Pudge were steroid users. I think that has to be taken into account. Pudge today is about 30 lbs lighter and a total slap hitter now that there is drug testing.

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