Yankees slugger Rodriguez hits 599th home run

[#27TheDominator]

According to Canseco, Clemens never touched PEDs and FWIW, Jose's never been wrong.

IMO anybody that has their own "personal trainer" that follows them from team to team and they insist has access to the lockers has gone past suspect and well into smoking gun territory.

I just assume everyone did. Is it flawed? Sure....but I think it s safe to assume most players did at some point.

Say it is 60%.

That makes comparisons pretty difficult to do.

IMO it's probably closer to 100% than 60%, but the comparison is still difficult to do. The fact is, that is what the statistics loving baseball geeks love. It gives them one more factor to compare while they are having these fun but meaningless debates.

[Scott Dierking]

IMO anybody that has their own "personal trainer" that follows them from team to team and they insist has access to the lockers has gone past suspect and well into smoking gun territory.

IMO it's probably closer to 100% than 60%, but the comparison is still difficult to do. The fact is, that is what the statistics loving baseball geeks love. It gives them one more factor to compare while they are having these fun but meaningless debates.

Anybody who doesn't believe Clemens did PEDs is extremely naive and delusional.

[Klecko73isGod]

Anybody who doesn't believe Clemens did PEDs is extremely naive and delusional.

Just as naive anyone who doesn't believe Curt Shilling took them. Just as naive as anyone who thinks that steroids were only in widespread use in MLB for a 7 year period in the late 90s and early 2000s and that nobody ever touched them before that.

[NIGHT STALKER]

Anybody who doesn't believe Clemens did PEDs is extremely naive and delusional.

Anyone that doesn't believe that most players haven't done them is extremely naive and delusional. It's too bad they haven't released the 100 names on the "list".

You think your boy Piazza hasn't done them?

[Lil Bit Special]

Anyone that doesn't believe that most players haven't done them is extremely naive and delusional. It's too bad they haven't released the 100 names on the "list".

You think your boy Piazza hasn't done them?

I'd be stunned if he didnt.

Not sure why again it becomes a Yankee/Sox/Mets argument. Hell, if I was a betting man I would bet that the Mets had more juicers than any team out there. With the tattle-tale on their team? Wouldnt be surprised if Wilbum was using too and now his balls and brain are smaller.

[NIGHT STALKER]

I'd be stunned if he didnt.

Not sure why again it becomes a Yankee/Sox/Mets argument. Hell, if I was a betting man I would bet that the Mets had more juicers than any team out there. With the tattle-tale on their team? Wouldnt be surprised if Wilbum was using too and now his balls and brain are smaller.

It's a Yanks Mets Sox debate on here because that is what most of the posters are...every freaken team has/had juicers. Again, when owners are willing to shell out millions of bucks to pay these guys, it's like feeding raw meat inside a lion's cage.

[Scott Dierking]

Just as naive anyone who doesn't believe Curt Shilling took them. Just as naive as anyone who thinks that steroids were only in widespread use in MLB for a 7 year period in the late 90s and early 2000s and that nobody ever touched them before that.

With Clemens, there is multiple smoking guns.

What evidence is there on Schilling that amounts to credible use?

Man, you are just all over.

[Scott Dierking]

Anyone that doesn't believe that most players haven't done them is extremely naive and delusional. It's too bad they haven't released the 100 names on the "list".

You think your boy Piazza hasn't done them?

Piazza very well may have, I don't know.

This thread has become people throwing out names where there is not real evidence, as opposed to talking about the player(s), who we KNOW did them.

[Klecko73isGod]

With Clemens, there is multiple smoking guns.

What evidence is there on Schilling that amounts to credible use?

Man, you are just all over.

How about how Schilling suddenly struck out more than 300 batters in back to back years just before he was set to become a free agent at the age of 30 when he never fanned more than 186 in a season prior to that and then suddenly did it again four years later when he was set to become a free agent again? All of this was during the height of the steroid era BTW. But no, Schilling never touched the stuff. He's the only guy who had a sudden dramatic jump in his numbers during the 90s and 00s who wasn't dirty.

The main thing against Clemens is the testimony of a highly dubious witness and the one guy who has a track record of being 100% accurate in his charges of who's been dirty and who's been clean says Clemens never touched the stuff.

[Scott Dierking]

How about how Schilling suddenly struck out more than 300 batters in back to back years just before he was set to become a free agent at the age of 30 when he never fanned more than 186 in a season prior to that and then suddenly did it again four years later when he was set to become a free agent again? All of this was during the height of the steroid era BTW. But no, Schilling never touched the stuff. He's the only guy who had a sudden dramatic jump in his numbers during the 90s and 00s who wasn't dirty.

The main thing against Clemens is the testimony of a highly dubious witness and the one guy who has a track record of being 100% accurate in his charges of who's been dirty and who's been clean says Clemens never touched the stuff.

You mind naming some names here, because honestly, your posts don't make much sense with subtle innuendo.

That, and your facts are totally wrong on Schilling and his numbers and years

Do you also realize, that while you are arguing that Schilling did steroids and those affected his performance, that you started this thread asking for proof that steroids effect performance? You really are all over

[#27TheDominator]

Piazza very well may have, I don't know.

This thread has become people throwing out names where there is not real evidence, as opposed to talking about the player(s), who we KNOW did them.

Eh, if I'm at the Bridge of Death and the Old Man asks me to name three players that took PEDs I'm 100% sure I could say Piazza, Ortiz and Brady Anderson and cross in safety.

[Scott Dierking]

Eh, if I'm at the Bridge of Death and the Old Man asks me to name three players that took PEDs I'm 100% sure I could say Piazza, Ortiz and Brady Anderson and cross in safety.

Ho does all this relate to Rodriguez and the significance (or diminishing significance of ) hitting 600 homers?

[#27TheDominator]

Ho does all this relate to Rodriguez and the significance (or diminishing significance of ) hitting 600 homers?

It relates exactly 100% the same way that Curt Schilling does. Those are three people that haven't been "caught" that I'm certain used. In Ortiz case it may have just been GH, but it will amount to pretty much the same thing. Are those players diminished? Maybe, but you can't go off on a tangent with Klecko and expect everybody else to stick to the thread title.

Personally, I am more offended by this whole Clinton style "DENY! DENY! DENY!" bull**** than I am with people who make a simple admission and move on.

[Klecko73isGod]

You mind naming some names here, because honestly, your posts don't make much sense with subtle innuendo.

That, and your facts are totally wrong on Schilling and his numbers and years

Do you also realize, that while you are arguing that Schilling did steroids and those affected his performance, that you started this thread asking for proof that steroids effect performance? You really are all over

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/s/schilcu01.shtml

Oh that's gotta hurt!

[Scott Dierking]

It relates exactly 100% the same way that Curt Schilling does. Those are three people that haven't been "caught" that I'm certain used. In Ortiz case it may have just been GH, but it will amount to pretty much the same thing. Are those players diminished? Maybe, but you can't go off on a tangent with Klecko and expect everybody else to stick to the thread title.

Personally, I am more offended by this whole Clinton style "DENY! DENY! DENY!" bull**** than I am with people who make a simple admission and move on.

Here is what Klecko has done in this thread-

1. Tell us how steroids helped AROD

2. Steroids do not affect reflecxes/reaction

3. Prove that steroids helped AROD

4. All these other athletes (with names) used steroids. They had to-Look at their numbers

You can't make this stuff up.

[Scott Dierking]

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/s/schilcu01.shtml

Oh that's gotta hurt!

What years' was Curt a Free agent?

[Klecko73isGod]

It relates exactly 100% the same way that Curt Schilling does. Those are three people that haven't been "caught" that I'm certain used. In Ortiz case it may have just been GH, but it will amount to pretty much the same thing. Are those players diminished? Maybe, but you can't go off on a tangent with Klecko and expect everybody else to stick to the thread title.

Personally, I am more offended by this whole Clinton style "DENY! DENY! DENY!" bull**** than I am with people who make a simple admission and move on.

Thank you.

SD is acting like only a handful of guys took steroids and that it only happened during a relatively short period of time.

The truth is steroid use was incredibly widespread and started long before the recent so called "steroid era" even began.

Did steroids improve these guys performance? Probably. But to what extent none of us will ever really know. There is no real to quantify how many homeruns someone hit as a result of taking steroids just as there is no real way to quantify how many home runs were hit as a result of players taking greenies in the 60s.

To suggest that these guys are any more guilty of cheating than those guys were is ludicrous. Throughout history different tonics and elixirs have been sold to athletes with the promise of enhanced performance. Some of them worked some of them didn't.

What will never change is the desire to get that edge. The most astonishing thing to my father is hearing guys like Willie Mays (his idol) and Hank Aaron saying that if these things existed in their day that they would have taken them. They took different things to get a perceived edge.

I personally think steroid use became so rampant at one point that ironically the playing field was just as level as it would be if no one was taking them.

I am just fed up with people acting like 1996-2004 was really so much different than the rest of baseball history because it really wasn't.

[Klecko73isGod]

Here is what Klecko has done in this thread-

1. Tell us how steroids helped AROD

2. Steroids do not affect reflecxes/reaction

3. Prove that steroids helped AROD

4. All these other athletes (with names) used steroids. They had to-Look at their numbers

You can't make this stuff up.

They don't. There is no medical evidence that even remotely suggest that they do. What most performance/strength enhancers do is enable athletes to recover more quickly from workouts. Enabling them to work out longer and harder and get stronger. There is nothing you can take that will improve your reflexes or reaction time. Maybe adderall but I've never heard of athletes using it.

And that's not all that I've done in this thread. That's what you've chosen to take from what I've said and my point has completely flown over your head.

Read my post just prior to this, really read it, and maybe you'll get it.

[Scott Dierking]

Thank you.

SD is acting like only a handful of guys took steroids and that it only happened during a relatively short period of time.

The truth is steroid use was incredibly widespread and started long before the recent so called "steroid era" even began.

Did steroids improve these guys performance? Probably. But to what extent none of us will ever really know. There is no real to quantify how many homeruns someone hit as a result of taking steroids just as there is no real way to quantify how many home runs were hit as a result of players taking greenies in the 60s.

To suggest that these guys are any more guilty of cheating than those guys were is ludicrous. Throughout history different tonics and elixirs have been sold to athletes with the promise of enhanced performance. Some of them worked some of them didn't.

What will never change is the desire to get that edge. The most astonishing thing to my father is hearing guys like Willie Mays (his idol) and Hank Aaron saying that if these things existed in their day that they would have taken them. They took different things to get a perceived edge.

I personally think steroid use became so rampant at one point that ironically the playing field was just as level as it would be if no one was taking them.

I am just fed up with people acting like 1996-2004 was really so much different than the rest of baseball history because it really wasn't.

Then how do you account for the rapid decrease in runs scored and overall offense in baseball the last 2 years?

Did they raise the mound again?

I NEVER said it was a "handful" of players. I have no idea, just like you do. All these things are guesses and uninformed guesses

[Klecko73isGod]

What years' was Curt a Free agent?

Do you deny that his numbers seem artificially enhanced during those two periods of his career?

It's not odd that a guy who never struck out more than 186 batters in a season would suddenly strike out 319 at the age of 30?

Wow you're naive.

[Scott Dierking]

They don't. There is no medical evidence that even remotely suggest that they do. What most performance/strength enhancers do is enable athletes to recover more quickly from workouts. Enabling them to work out longer and harder and get stronger. There is nothing you can take that will improve your reflexes or reaction time. Maybe adderall but I've never heard of athletes using it.

And that's not all that I've done in this thread. That's what you've chosen to take from what I've said and my point has completely flown over your head.

Read my post just prior to this, really read it, and maybe you'll get it.

Will working out more help reflexes/reaction?

[Scott Dierking]

Do you deny that his numbers seem artificially enhanced during those two periods of his career?

It's not odd that a guy who never struck out more than 186 batters in a season would suddenly strike out 319 at the age of 30?

Wow you're naive.

You ddnt answer my question, what years was CS a Free Agent?

[Scott Dierking]

Do you deny that his numbers seem artificially enhanced during those two periods of his career?

It's not odd that a guy who never struck out more than 186 batters in a season would suddenly strike out 319 at the age of 30?

Wow you're naive.

How do you explain Roger Clemens then

[Klecko73isGod]

Then how do you account for the rapid decrease in runs scored and overall offense in baseball the last 2 years?

Did they raise the mound again?

I NEVER said it was a "handful" of players. I have no idea, just like you do. All these things are guesses and uninformed guesses

For a homerun to be hit there are two major factors at play: the speed of the pitch and the speed of the bat.

Steroid using pitchers can generally throw harder and steroid using hitters can swing the bat harder. Add in a more tightly wound ball designed to go further and you have an offensive explosion. Add in expansion which brings in pitchers that previously wouldn't be pitching at that level and it goes even crazier.

I think the reason for the drop off is that they finally started testing for steroids, some major names got popped and the overall usage dropped significantly. At the same time, the talent level has caught up to the expansion so pitching has simply improved.

It goes in waves and always has.

[Scott Dierking]

For a homerun to be hit there are two major factors at play: the speed of the pitch and the speed of the bat.

Steroid using pitchers can generally throw harder and steroid using hitters can swing the bat harder. Add in a more tightly wound ball designed to go further and you have an offensive explosion. Add in expansion which brings in pitchers that previously wouldn't be pitching at that level and it goes even crazier.

I think the reason for the drop off is that they finally started testing for steroids, some major names got popped and the overall usage dropped significantly. At the same time, the talent level has caught up to the expansion so pitching has simply improved.

It goes in waves and always has.

It has not gone in a sharp decline like this, since they lowered the mound.

So obviously, yes, steroids helped players hit and hot the ball further. I don't see how you can say differently.

You still ignoring when CS became a free agent

[Klecko73isGod]

How do you explain Roger Clemens then

Clemens numbers were far more consistent throughout his career. Clemens struck out 238 at the age of 23 and 291 when he was 25. He also never struck out more than 292 in his career. He slumped to 160, 168 and 132 in injury plagued and strike years when he was 30, 31 and 32.

He rebounded once he was healthy to strike out 257 while still with the Sox in 96. So much for him suddenly not taking off until he was with Toronto. People also forget that those Red Sox teams of the mid90s were pretty terrible.

Clemens struck out 200 or more 12 times in his career and he did it when he was young as well as when he was old and also in between.

Schilling only struck out 200 or more five times and they were all after the age of 30? That's a little strange.

[Klecko73isGod]

Will working out more help reflexes/reaction?

Not working out like the work outs that steroids help you with.

You can take tons of batting practice and do other types of exercises. But there is no way steroids can improve your reflexes, reaction or eyesight.

[Klecko73isGod]

It has not gone in a sharp decline like this, since they lowered the mound.

So obviously, yes, steroids helped players hit and hot the ball further. I don't see how you can say differently.

You still ignoring when CS became a free agent

If I was off on that I was off on that. Doesn't change the fact that the timing of his big strikeout years is incredbly suspicious.

[Scott Dierking]

Not working out like the work outs that steroids help you with.

You can take tons of batting practice and do other types of exercises. But there is no way steroids can improve your reflexes, reaction or eyesight.

Like any other drug, I am sure they will affect everyone differently. Yes their greatest benefit are purported to be the "cycling" program, but we can feel with prettry good confidence there re other benefits-witness baseball's meteoric explosion of offense.

[Scott Dierking]

If I was off on that I was off on that. Doesn't change the fact that the timing of his big strikeout years is incredbly suspicious.

They were not his Free Agent years.

Schilling was hurt a number of those other years, and that can partially explain why he "jumped".

Others can claim that may also be symptomatic of PED use.

I prefer not to accuse based on numbers alone, unless there is decent other evidence. With CS, no one has supplied that.

You can be sure he was a player who was not liked by all his peers-If someone had dirt on him, they may spill that

[Bob]

Piazza very well may have, I don't know.

This thread has become people throwing out names where there is not real evidence, as opposed to talking about the player(s), who we KNOW did them.

You mean like you consistently do with Clemens? Sure there have been allegations. Not an ounce of proof. Yet, you act like it's settled.

Don't be a hypocrite, Dierk. You're better than that.

[Bugg]

Why?

In the 90's, there were no rules against it. It improved your play, ultimately getting you paid more money. Hell, you'd be dumb not to take them at that point, especially if you were a fringe big leaguer.

So you're David Arias, about to be dumped by the Twins. And suddenly you take the needle from the same trainer as A-rod back in the DR. And you transformed into Sawx legend Big Papi, David Ortiz, witha huge ass long-term contract to boot.

Or your could "be clean" and go back to obscurity and if you didn't save up, may be being a poor guy in the DR.

I take the needle. ANd by all accounts Ortiz is a decent guy. The roids probably helped a bunch, but he still had to perform. And he did so against other players and pitchers who all took the needle too. It possibly wasn't an edge, he was merely keeping up.

The Rays' Gabe Kapler was as a rookie with the Tigers regularly featured in bodybuilding mags. His physique throughout his career screams ROIDS. Yet I see no one demanding he be dumped. If Andy Pettitte, The All American Boy doing Bible commercials , took the needle, any of them might have done it. Bad news-Santa and the Easter Bunny might be BS too.

The only problem I have ever had as Yankee fan is that the report Selig solicited from Sawx shareholder and board member George Mitchell obviously whitwashed the Sawx. We are to believe that with the likes of known and obvious like Ortiz, Mo Vaughan, Kapler and others going into the Sawx clubhouse over the years Mitchell had no idea who the Boston equivalent of Macnamee or Radomski was. And that was crap. When it finally came out last year that Ortiz did use, MLB tried ridiculously to cover for him. Again, Ortiz is a nice man and I wish him well. But MLB sticking up for one franchise and not others is crap. Bud Selig knew damn well in 1998 what was going on, and to pretend otherwise is a joke.

[Klecko73isGod]

Like any other drug, I am sure they will affect everyone differently. Yes their greatest benefit are purported to be the "cycling" program, but we can feel with prettry good confidence there re other benefits-witness baseball's meteoric explosion of offense.

Have you seen Gabe Kapler recently? Dude looks like he's lost 50 lbs since he played for the Red Sox in '06. He has stick legs now. This guy used to be built like a brick ****house. He's never hit a lot of home runs.

You can take steroids the livelong day. If you ain't got it, you ain't got it.

[Klecko73isGod]

So you're David Arias, about to be dumped by the Twins. And suddenly you take the needle from the same trainer as A-rod back in the DR. And you transformed into Sawx legend Big Papi, David Ortiz, witha huge ass long-term contract to boot.

Or your could "be clean" and go back to obscurity and if you didn't save up, may be being a poor guy in the DR.

I take the needle. ANd by all accounts Ortiz is a decent guy. The roids probably helped a bunch, but he still had to perform. And he did so against other players and pitchers who all took the needle too. It possibly wasn't an edge, he was merely keeping up.

The Rays' Gabe Kapler was as a rookie with the Tigers regularly featured in bodybuilding mags. His physique throughout his career screams ROIDS. Yet I see no one demanding he be dumped. If Andy Pettitte, The All American Boy doing Bible commercials , took the needle, any of them might have done it. Bad news-Santa and the Easter Bunny might be BS too.

The only problem I have ever had as Yankee fan is that the report Selig solicited from Sawx shareholder and board member George Mitchell obviously whitwashed the Sawx. We are to believe that with the likes of known and obvious like Ortiz, Mo Vaughan, Kapler and others going into the Sawx clubhouse over the years Mitchell had no idea who the Boston equivalent of Macnamee or Radomski was. And that was crap. When it finally came out last year that Ortiz did use, MLB tried ridiculously to cover for him. Again, Ortiz is a nice man and I wish him well. But MLB sticking up for one franchise and not others is crap. Bud Selig knew damn well in 1998 what was going on, and to pretend otherwise is a joke.

Not to mention Manny.

But even with the roids, there had to be a certain level of talent that enabled these guys to accomplish what they accomplished. Lots of guys took roids, not all of them hit 50 home runs. Hell, in Kapler's case he never saw double digits after the age of 25.

[neckdemon]

wow what a debate this has become. bottom line: rodriguez is a proven cheater and i'm not impressed with his HR accomplishments. which sucks because i was really pulling for him to grab the record from that scumbag bonds. but alas......he was shown to be a cheater as well.