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SenorGato

Hypothetical Trade for both NY teams.

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Yankees get:

Justin Upton

Diamondbacks get:

Montero

Brett Gardner

Ivan Nova

Bryan Mitchell

Manny Banuelos

Andrew Brackman

Mets fans...the Red Sox are pretty much an ideal trading partner if you wanted to trade Beltran...what would it take?

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Yankees get:

Justin Upton

Diamondbacks get:

Montero

Brett Gardner

Ivan Nova

Bryan Mitchell

Manny Banuelos

Andrew Brackman

Mets fans...the Red Sox are pretty much an ideal trading partner if you wanted to trade Beltran...what would it take?

Why would the Red Sox want Beltran? And why would they have to give up ANYTHING for him.

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Mets fans...the Red Sox are pretty much an ideal trading partner if you wanted to trade Beltran...what would it take?

I agree with CC, why would the Sox want Beltran? A .217 average? Really!?!?! :rolleyes:

I might straight swap him for JD and Cameron.

I would not give the Mets anyone in the top 100 in the organization. Plus, the Mets would have to dam near pay all of his remaining 20+ million.

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I agree with CC, why would the Sox want Beltran? A .217 average? Really!?!?! :rolleyes:

I might straight swap him for JD and Cameron.

I would not give the Mets anyone in the top 100 in the organization. Plus, the Mets would have to dam near pay all of his remaining 20+ million.

Seriously?

Anyway, he's a damn good player and he doesn't look finished to me. The Red Sox have a huge hole in the OF that could use a high end veteran to fill the gap until one of the high upside guys in the low minors is ready in a couple years. They have the money to do it, they often do business with the Mets, they drafted his nephew in the first round, and he's a great buy low option for a contender with money to spend because it really is commonplace to hear he's finished.

Crawford looks nice, but his athleticism is wasted in LF at Fenway. Werth is nice, but Beltran would cost less financially, he's a better player at a premium position, AND it's only a one year deal.

Edited by SenorGato

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That's not a credible package. That is far too much going too Arizona. Justin Upton isn't Josh Hamilton. .797 OPS... that isn't exactly stellar from a corner outfielder. I know his potential, but we need to see it fulfilled before anyone gives up their farm for him.

Edited by Tyler Durden

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Seriously?

Anyway, he's a damn good player and he doesn't look finished to me. The Red Sox have a huge hole in the OF that could use a high end veteran to fill the gap until one of the high upside guys in the low minors is ready in a couple years. They have the money to do it, they often do business with the Mets, they drafted his nephew in the first round, and he's a great buy low option for a contender with money to spend because it really is commonplace to hear he's finished.

Crawford looks nice, but his athleticism is wasted in LF at Fenway. Werth is nice, but Beltran would cost less financially, he's a better player at a premium position, AND it's only a one year deal.

Ellsbury is not a FA until 2014.

JD and Cameron are signed through next year.

Kalish has earned a chance to stick with the club next year.

Who knows about Hermedia? McDonald?

And as you mentioned, Reddick and a few others are in the wings.

While not a great OF trio, I think Ellsbury-Kalish-Drew with Cameron coming off the bench is better then shipping a decent prospect for an expensive one year rental. Especially, a mid-30s outfielder coming off a knee injury.

If they are going to pony up cash, make a run at Carl Crawford.

Now, if they move Ellsbury........

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That's not a credible package. That is far too much going too Arizona. Justin Upton isn't Josh Hamilton. .797 OPS... that isn't exactly stellar from a corner outfielder. I know his potential, but we need to see it fulfilled before anyone gives up their farm for him.

Upton threw up a .816 OPS at 20 and a .899 at 21. He was arguably the most hyped prospect of the decade before Strasburg (whole different reason) including Prior. The Yankees would not be giving up too much. If you polled around the league for under 25 guys he'd be in the top 5 most talented or "must have" guys.

Ellsbury is not a FA until 2014.

Beltran >>>>>>>>>>> Ellsbury

JD and Cameron are signed through next year.

Beltran >>>>>>>>>> JD (a RF anyway) and Cameron

Kalish has earned a chance to stick with the club next year.

Sure, but you're ignoring that Beltran >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kalish.

Who knows about Hermedia? McDonald?

They suck. I say this as a guy who's called Hermida a breakout star every year for the past 5 years.

And as you mentioned, Reddick and a few others are in the wings.

I was thinking more in the low minors...There's some nice guys at the upper levels but the real upside is with Westmoreland and Beltran's little nephew.

While not a great OF trio, I think Ellsbury-Kalish-Drew with Cameron coming off the bench is better then shipping a decent prospect for an expensive one year rental. Especially, a mid-30s outfielder coming off a knee injury.

I think getting a better player trumps any of that.

If they are going to pony up cash, make a run at Carl Crawford.

Crawford's athleticism is completely wasted in Fenway. Compleeeeeeeeeetely wasted.

Now, if they move Ellsbury........

Include him in the trade...because...once again...Beltran >>>>>>>>>>>>>> your OF.

Edited by SenorGato

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Considering his salary next year, I think it'd be tough to trade Beltran before he proves he's healthy.

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Considering his salary next year, I think it'd be tough to trade Beltran before he proves he's healthy.

The Mets would have to eat some salary just to get anything decent back...TBH I only threw a Beltran trade out because 1. I hear the less intelligent Mets fans talk about it and 2. Boston really is a tailor made trade partner in many ways....that said, because they'd have to give money to get something back then it's pretty pointless to trade a high end talent with one year on his big money deal, no? They're not going to top Beltran in FA, and getting someone like an Ellsbury back would do nothing for their lineup since they already have Reyes and Pagan at the top of a projected 2011 lineup. Crawford would work very well there, but can Bay play RF? Would you move Beltran to RF for Crawford in CF? Actually that one could work...Citi allows both those guys to showcase their athleticism.

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The Mets would have to eat some salary just to get anything decent back...TBH I only threw a Beltran trade out because 1. I hear the less intelligent Mets fans talk about it and 2. Boston really is a tailor made trade partner in many ways....that said, because they'd have to give money to get something back then it's pretty pointless to trade a high end talent with one year on his big money deal, no? They're not going to top Beltran in FA, and getting someone like an Ellsbury back would do nothing for their lineup since they already have Reyes and Pagan at the top of a projected 2011 lineup. Crawford would work very well there, but can Bay play RF? Would you move Beltran to RF for Crawford in CF? Actually that one could work...Citi allows both those guys to showcase their athleticism.

Beltran is how old? He makes how much money? He's hitting how low? Awesome. Thanks but no thanks.

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Beltran is how old? He makes how much money? He's hitting how low? Awesome. Thanks but no thanks.

32, making 18 million, and if you really place that much value on a month worth of batting average then more power to you.

I also fail to understand why the age or money is a big deal considering it's one year. This is especially true considering that 33 isn't even THAT old anymore (this isn't football, it's baseball) and 18 million dollars isn't really anything to the Red Sox if they get a good player who can help them win games.

Still with that said, the Mets would look alot smarter to keep Beltran anyway.

Edited by SenorGato

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Considering his salary next year, I think it'd be tough to trade Beltran before he proves he's healthy.

Exactly. He has played 41 games to date and is hiiting .212.

.

Beltran >>>>>>>>>>> Ellsbury

No arguments. You forgot one other comparison that is important. 34 > 27 Their ages next April. Ellsbury may never reach Beltran's ceiling, but he could and in 2012 he will still be with the Sox.

Beltran >>>>>>>>>> JD (a RF anyway) and Cameron

Again, no arguments. If the Sox could get rid of those two without having to pay them, then getting Beltran is a no-brainer. However, they are either having to give up a very good prospect and/or assume most of the remaining balances of their contracts or give up crap and probably still assume a good portion of their contracts for next season. Ditto Beltran. What do the Mess want? How much are they willing to pay?

Sure, but you're ignoring that Beltran >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kalish.

No arguments.v3. I think Kalish deserves a spot on the Boston roster next year.

I was thinking more in the low minors...There's some nice guys at the upper levels but the real upside is with Westmoreland and Beltran's little nephew.

Fuentes is a few seasons away and Westmoreland you just do not know about. Relatively speaking, only Reddick and Kalish are close to the big league roster. If healthy, Westmreland is ahead of them, but that remains to be seen.

I think getting a better player trumps any of that.

If the outfield was the only area of concern, then getting Beltran makes perfect sense as long as it does not cost too much. However, there are other areas that need to be addressed first. Catcher. Re-singing Beltre or his replacement. A decent pitching coach.

Crawford's athleticism is completely wasted in Fenway. Compleeeeeeeeeetely wasted.

Maybe, but the Sox need to be more athletic. I see the Rays and sit in amazement of much more athletic they are. It is not even close.

Include him in the trade...because...once again...Beltran >>>>>>>>>>>>>> your OF.

That is a dumb trade. Shipping off a guy to somewhere else in order to bring a 34yo OF in the hopes he recovers from a knee injury and returns to form. Now, there is a caveat to it; the trade would have to fix another problem area.

The Sox problem is the god awful Cameron deal handcuffed them. If they were out from under either Drew, Cameron or both of their contracts, then acquiring Beltran makes more sense, but unfortuntely they are not. If Beltran was the missing piece, then it would make sense regardless of cost. However, he will not be and seeing how his 2011 shapes up remains to be seen. It is a bad move for the Sox. We do not know what their salary ceiling is, but I am willing to bet they are close to it.

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I can guarantee you right now that Ellsbury will never be the player Beltran is/was. Baseball Prospectus called Beltran a guy who has quietly been building a resume that is HOF worthy. He's along way off from a HOF, but it's hiiiiiighly unlikely he's going to be posting a sub-.650 OPS season every again. There's no way Boston would be losing 2011 value in that trade, and if that were to happen it's because they want the best 2011 team possible. The guy is an elite defensive CF, a top of the line power/speed offensive player, one of the best and most efficient base runners in the game (he's actually a historically great basestealer), AND he gets on base. You think all that is done because he's one year older and he had a small knee surgery?

Honestly, it sounds more to me like you 1. overrate what the Red Sox are giving up/already have 2. playing it extremely safe without considering everything and 3. know nothing about the player beyond age and injury. Now you have me rooting for this trade to happen. It won't unless the Mets are actually as dumb as the papers make them seem.

Also, what's wrong with Cameron in LF (he's been declining defensively anyways), Beltran in CF, and Drew in RF? Despite the age that's probably one of the best defensive OFs in the league.

On Carl Crawford and the Red Sox: Unless the Red Sox plan to move him into CF then them getting a more athletic LF doesn't really do much for them in Fenway. Smart OFers with less athleticism could play that spot well just by knowing how to play with the wall. Werth kind of makes sense because he can play LF and Drew's on the way out anyway. Crawford...not so much. Alot of Crawford's value is tied into his defense...which is tied into his range...Honestly, if you're targeting a possibly available Devil Ray it should be BJ Upton.

Edited by SenorGato

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I can guarantee you right now that Ellsbury will never be the player Beltran is/was. Baseball Prospectus called Beltran a guy who has quietly been building a resume that is HOF worthy. He's along way off from a HOF, but it's hiiiiiighly unlikely he's going to be posting a sub-.650 OPS season every again. There's no way Boston would be losing 2011 value in that trade, and if that were to happen it's because they want the best 2011 team possible. The guy is an elite defensive CF, a top of the line power/speed offensive player, one of the best and most efficient base runners in the game (he's actually a historically great basestealer), AND he gets on base. You think all that is done because he's one year older and he had a small knee surgery?

Honestly, it sounds more to me like you 1. overrate what the Red Sox are giving up/already have 2. playing it extremely safe without considering everything and 3. know nothing about the player beyond age and injury. Now you have me rooting for this trade to happen. It won't unless the Mets are actually as dumb as the papers make them seem.

Also, what's wrong with Cameron in LF (he's been declining defensively anyways), Beltran in CF, and Drew in RF? Despite the age that's probably one of the best defensive OFs in the league.

On Carl Crawford and the Red Sox: Unless the Red Sox plan to move him into CF then them getting a more athletic LF doesn't really do much for them in Fenway. Smart OFers with less athleticism could play that spot well just by knowing how to play with the wall. Werth kind of makes sense because he can play LF and Drew's on the way out anyway. Crawford...not so much. Alot of Crawford's value is tied into his defense...which is tied into his range...Honestly, if you're targeting a possibly available Devil Ray it should be BJ Upton.

So Beltran is going to have a career rebirth at age 34 coming off of an injury and not being healthy or playing a full slate of games. You want to insert that to play with JD Drew who is always hurt and Mike Cameron who will be 38 and coming off of torn abdominal surgery? Really? For the money, you stick with Ellsbury.

People wanted to get rid of Buchholz in a plethora of make believe trades too....

The Red Sox need to figure out what they're going to do with Beltre, Ortiz and Martinez long before the consider trading for a washed up Carlos Beltran.

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So Beltran is going to have a career rebirth at age 34 coming off of an injury and not being healthy or playing a full slate of games. You want to insert that to play with JD Drew who is always hurt and Mike Cameron who will be 38 and coming off of torn abdominal surgery? Really? For the money, you stick with Ellsbury.

People wanted to get rid of Buchholz in a plethora of make believe trades too....

The Red Sox need to figure out what they're going to do with Beltre, Ortiz and Martinez long before the consider trading for a washed up Carlos Beltran.

1. It's not a rebirth just because he got injured and hasn't set the world on fire after it. It's more likely that he plays closer to what he's averaged throughout his career than not. It's very unlikely he's going to be hitting in the low .200's and posting low .600's OPS. If he's even average Beltran you're getting a top of the line player who can hit anywhere from 2-5 in the lineup.

2. Why are we pretending 34 is old when clearly many baseball players in the 2000's have pulled off being good players after that?

3. Last year and this year are the only times in his career he's played less than 140 games.

4. Martinez is good, but they've already got catching insurance in Saltamacchia.

5. You guys really, really overrate Ellsbury. He's got no power and he's a speed guy who can't even throw up a .360-.370 OBP...he's good but what upside could be left in him? Could he really outdo his '09? That was a 2.5 WARP year for him...Beltran did that (and more) in '09 playing half the season. Beltran's topped that pretty much every year of his career...How likely is it that he outplays Beltran just because he's younger? How likely is it that he outplays Beltran ever?

6. Two things I find funny...Ortiz is already 35...Martinez is 32 next year...neither is anywhere near the athlete Beltran is and both have been injured in some way or another over the past couple years...You're overrating your players...that's why the whole counterpoint has been based around age and recent injury.

You guys are acting like your mid-30's is old. In reality, that's less than halfway through life. These men are professional athletes getting the best training possible...Many have been doing it for years and it's harder to not do it than it is to do it...should I write out a list of players who have played into their 40's just in the last decade? Some even pulled it off after an injury :o . I still don't think anyone here even knows what his injury was.

Edited by SenorGato

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Sorry for the long posts...I really like to talk baseball...I think there's a complete lack of analysis on the other side.

Edited by SenorGato

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Sorry for the long posts...I really like to talk baseball...I think there's a complete lack of analysis on the other side.

And a complete lack of sense on your side. Check out Theo's history of bringing in players. What makes you think there is even a one percent chance he'd consider bringing in Beltran? Nonetheless trading away young players for him. It doesn't make sense.

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And a complete lack of sense on your side. Check out Theo's history of bringing in players. What makes you think there is even a one percent chance he'd consider bringing in Beltran? Nonetheless trading away young players for him. It doesn't make sense.

...I don't get it. What's Theo's history?

Also not sure how the Red Sox trading for an elite CF on a one year deal doesn't make sense for them. It makes complete sense for a 2011 run.

Edited by SenorGato

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...I don't get it. What's Theo's history?

Also not sure how the Red Sox trading for an elite CF on a one year deal doesn't make sense for them. It makes complete sense for a 2011 run.

1. He's not elite. Not anymore at least.

2. There are a plethora of outfielders already under contract for next year. Unless someone is willing to take on Drew's 14 million or Camerons near 8 million, it's not happening.

3. Theo doesn't trade for older players, especially since 2010 and 2011 were "bridge years" in his terms to get the Sox to 2012 and the prospects he thinks will be ready by then.

You're not spinning a winning argument at all. Why would the Sox give up even decent prospects for someone who plays a position that the Sox aren't concerned about for next season. Catcher, 3rd base and bullpen are at the top of the priority list. Not to mention DH.

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Yankees get:

Justin Upton

Diamondbacks get:

Montero

Brett Gardner

Ivan Nova

Bryan Mitchell

Manny Banuelos

Andrew Brackman

Mets fans...the Red Sox are pretty much an ideal trading partner if you wanted to trade Beltran...what would it take?

i wish the mets could trade GMs with the sawx

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1. He's not elite. Not anymore at least.

Yea...bullsh*t. One year is not a trend. There still isn't 5 CFers in the league I'd take over Beltran.

2. There are a plethora of outfielders already under contract for next year. Unless someone is willing to take on Drew's 14 million or Camerons near 8 million, it's not happening.

Which makes it easy to trade one for a better player...We're not exactly talking superstar talent with any of the guys you're talking about here.

I also don't get why you make a big deal about money when the Red Sox have the 2nd highest payroll in baseball.

3. Theo doesn't trade for older players, especially since 2010 and 2011 were "bridge years" in his terms to get the Sox to 2012 and the prospects he thinks will be ready by then.

He traded for a 30 year old no defense catcher just last year...Theo also loves buying low on guys with big upside (Hermida and Saltamacchia come to mind).

You're not spinning a winning argument at all. Why would the Sox give up even decent prospects for someone who plays a position that the Sox aren't concerned about for next season. Catcher, 3rd base and bullpen are at the top of the priority list. Not to mention DH.

The Red Sox aren't worried about CF? They're totally closed to the idea of upgrading the position?

I'm still failing to see the holes in my argument. Your whole shtick is based around the age, which is bullsh*t, the injury, which you have no clue about, and the fact that the Red Sox are loaded with mediocre outfielders so why would they want a good one? Fact of the matter is that if Beltran were to be made available this offseason he'd be at absolute worst the 2nd best position player available...and he plays a far more valuable position than Crawford's LF...especially given the way is Fenway is built.

You underrate the crap out of Beltran.

Edited by SenorGato

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Yea...bullsh*t. One year is not a trend. There still isn't 5 CFers in the league I'd take over Beltran.

Which makes it easy to trade one for a better player...We're not exactly talking superstar talent with any of the guys you're talking about here.

I also don't get why you make a big deal about money when the Red Sox have the 2nd highest payroll in baseball.

He traded for a 30 year old no defense catcher just last year...Theo also loves buying low on guys with big upside (Hermida and Saltamacchia come to mind).

The Red Sox aren't worried about CF? They're totally closed to the idea of upgrading the position?

I'm still failing to see the holes in my argument. Your whole shtick is based around the age, which is bullsh*t, the injury, which you have no clue about, and the fact that the Red Sox are loaded with mediocre outfielders so why would they want a good one? Fact of the matter is that if Beltran were to be made available this offseason he'd be at absolute worst the 2nd best position player available...and he plays a far more valuable position than Crawford's LF...especially given the way is Fenway is built.

You underrate the crap out of Beltran.

I think you overrate him. Theo traded for a 30 year old ctacher who could also play first base and was productive and healthy. The Red Sox have some big time money coming off of the payroll next season. Why would they add to it with an aging outfielder on the decline when they already have someone in that position?

Okay, so tell me this before I go any deeper into this ridiculousness. What would the Sox give up? Unless we're talking a whole lot of nothing, then it wouldn't even be considered.

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I think you overrate him. Theo traded for a 30 year old ctacher who could also play first base and was productive and healthy. The Red Sox have some big time money coming off of the payroll next season. Why would they add to it with an aging outfielder on the decline when they already have someone in that position?

Okay, so tell me this before I go any deeper into this ridiculousness. What would the Sox give up? Unless we're talking a whole lot of nothing, then it wouldn't even be considered.

In what sense am I overrating Beltran? He's a f*ckin CF who plays GG D, hits for power, has a great speed game, is a top athlete in the league, and has been a top of the line player for a decade. How many of those guys even exist?

The guy posted a .915 OPS in over 300 ABs in 2009. What decline? You're really sitting there telling me that he's more likely to post the sub-.650 OPS he's putting up right now in less than 200 ABs? Really? That's supposed to be bought because he's 34 and therefore finished?

Hypothetical trade:

Red Sox get:

Beltran

cash

Mets get:

Ellsbury

Michael Bowden

Jed Lowrie

Stephen Fife

There's no way the Red Sox even lose that trade...or the Mets do that trade...but if he were available it'd be a salary dump meaning the Mets would have to give some money just to get a decent return.

Anyway...this isn't the 20th century...guys have done the extraordinary nowadays and somehow been able to stay athletic past 32. It's a crazy concept, but look around and you'll notice it's actually fairly common in sports to be productive and "old." Ryan Kalish and Jacoby Ellsbury are not what elite OFs are made of...iunno how you plan to compete with the Yankees and Rays in 2011 with mid-range talent.

Also, I'd like you to take a look at this and point to me where the obvious trend towards decline is:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/b/beltrca01-bat.shtml

Edited by SenorGato

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In what sense am I overrating Beltran? He's a f*ckin CF who plays GG D, hits for power, has a great speed game, is a top athlete in the league, and has been a top of the line player for a decade. How many of those guys even exist?

The guy posted a .915 OPS in over 300 ABs in 2009. What decline? You're really sitting there telling me that he's more likely to post the sub-.650 OPS he's putting up right now in less than 200 ABs? Really? That's supposed to be bought because he's 34 and therefore finished?

Hypothetical trade:

Red Sox get:

Beltran

cash

Mets get:

Ellsbury

Michael Bowden

Jed Lowrie

Stephen Fife

There's no way the Red Sox even lose that trade...or the Mets do that trade...but if he were available it'd be a salary dump meaning the Mets would have to give some money just to get a decent return.

Anyway...this isn't the 20th century...guys have done the extraordinary nowadays and somehow been able to stay athletic past 32. It's a crazy concept, but look around and you'll notice it's actually fairly common in sports to be productive and "old." Ryan Kalish and Jacoby Ellsbury are not what elite OFs are made of...iunno how you plan to compete with the Yankees and Rays in 2011 with mid-range talent.

Also, I'd like you to take a look at this and point to me where the obvious trend towards decline is:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/b/beltrca01-bat.shtml

That's an awful trade for the Red Sox. I remember the hypothetical trades of Buchholz for Salty. Now look.

Beltran probably isn't going to be a CFer much longer. The Mets are thinking about moving him to a corner in the off-season. He was an elite player. He will not get back to elite status at his age and the surgery he just had. He's struggled mightily since coming back. It may turn around for him, but not to the player he once was.

I still fail to see how this helps the Red Sox. 2011 if Beltran had a bounce back year it may help but then he'd probably bolt because the Sox don't give out multiple year contracts to 35 year old players. The Red Sox and Epstein are more about building more than just a 2011 contender. They want to build something bigger than that. Trading for Beltran doesn't accomplish that goal. It sets them further back.

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That's an awful trade for the Red Sox. I remember the hypothetical trades of Buchholz for Salty. Now look.

1. This isn't prospect for prospect. Beltran is an established Major League star, not the 21 year old Jarrod Saltamacchia.

2. What exactly are you giving up there that the Red Sox will regret losing?

3. Lol @ the idea of the Red Sox being the losers in that trade...yea...4 mid-level prospects/talents for an All Star CF...plus cash....what a ripoff. :rolleyes: (Sorry for Hamming you, but really? Do you even know who Stephen Fife is?

Beltran probably isn't going to be a CFer much longer.

According to......who?

The Mets are thinking about moving him to a corner in the off-season.

No they're not....Now you're just making things up. Why would he be playing CF right after this super devastating injury if he'd be leaving it next year?

He was an elite player. He will not get back to elite status at his age and the surgery he just had.

Really? According to what rules are we working with here? I ask you again...what was his injury? What are the long term effects of that kind of injury? Why do you keep falling back on age when I've given you many examples of top tier players who didn't drop dead or whatever you think happens at 34?

He's struggled mightily since coming back.

He really hasn't if you've seen him play. Ignoring the low batting average for a second (mind you he's also got a .242 BABIP)...he's not K'ing alot (26) and he's got almost as many walks (25)....his OBP is more than .100 points over his batting average....same for his slugging...which isn't impressive but power is usually the last skill to return...

It may turn around for him, but not to the player he once was.

Again...according to what? The not even 200 PAs he's gotten so far this year?

I still fail to see how this helps the Red Sox.

I'll say it again:

Beltran >>>>>>>>>>> Ellsbury

Beltran >>>>>>>>>>> anyone you'll have in CF next year

Beltran >>>>>>>>>>> Any possible starter you may acquire for the OF next year unless you're getting a top tier player.

It's really not that complicated.

2011 if Beltran had a bounce back year it may help but then he'd probably bolt because the Sox don't give out multiple year contracts to 35 year old players.

Who said anything about resigning him? It's about fielding the best team in 2011.

The Red Sox and Epstein are more about building more than just a 2011 contender.

But I'm pretty sure they want to compete in 2011. You have confidence in a Cameron/Ellsbury/Drew OF for 2011? Is that what they're telling the pitching staff..."wait on it, one day the bats will develop?"

They want to build something bigger than that. Trading for Beltran doesn't accomplish that goal. It sets them further back.

Wtf does that even mean? That's like the tagline of guys who overrate the crap out of the players in the organization. In the trade I posted you're giving up an OF who hasn't put up even an .800 OPS since 127 PAs in '07, a pitcher with middle of the rotation upside...a sleeper 2B type talent in Lowerie (don't buy him as a SS in the long run)...and a pitcher named Stephen Fife who I'm fairly sure you had previous knowledge about until this sentence possibly coaxed a google search.

In return for that you get a CF who's AVERAGE season over his career looks like this:

.281/.359/.492/.851/29 SB/4 CS/106 RBI/28 HR/35 2B/7 3B....while playing a GG caliber CF.

Over the past 3 years not including this one his average season has looked like this:

.290/.375/.510/.885/32 2B/23 HR/20 SB/2 CS....Anyone on the Red Sox capable of doing that? Ryan Kalish going to put up something like that next year?

You keep bringing up age and injury...David Ortiz just threw up a .sub-800 OPS last year while also suffering from a wrist injury...Did he find some kind of magic potion this year that is strictly off limits to Beltran? Your argument makes no sense to me...I don't even get why you think Red Sox fans have as much vision as you to be willing to field a mediocre team in '11 in hope/wait of some great future to come one day...When's the last time that worked out for anyone?

Edited by SenorGato

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I was watching the Mets game today and Beltran didn't seem to have any problem legging out that triple...This might be because his 34th birthday hasn't passed yet so the old age hasn't triggered yet. I don't know what to say about The Injury because it didn't seem to exist at that moment in time...possibly he got over it but more likely is that its effect will also kick in on his 34th birthday.

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I'm not going to go through that ridiculously long post. Suffice it to say, the Sox won't do it. It's not the direction they are heading. It wouldn't benefit them enough. Giving up 3 major league ready players under the age of 30 for a 34 year old coming off a knee surgery doesn't make sense for any team. Period.

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'CrazyCarl40'

3. Theo doesn't trade for older players, especially since 2010 and 2011

No, he just signs washed up old players (Camereon and Lackey) and resigns once great pitchers (Beckett) on serious decline

And you wonder why the Sawx are a 3rd place ballclub :rolleyes:

Edited by JonEJet

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'CrazyCarl40'

3. Theo doesn't trade for older players, especially since 2010 and 2011

No, he just signs washed up old players (Camereon and Lackey) and resigns once great pitchers (Beckett) on serious decline

And you wonder why the Sawx are a 3rd place ballclub :rolleyes:

Beckett is on a decline? I'd like to see that one proved.

Cameron was brought on a two year deal and has been productive year in and year out. Not to mention his stellar defense in CF.

Lackey is not old, has been a top tier pitcher for years and is a playoff stalwart.

The Red Sox are a third place club because the Yankees and the Rays are good. The Sox would be within 3 games of any other division. Before the injuries took their toll they were a half game out.

Stop talking about the Red Sox and worry about the Yankees. CC cannot pitcher every game and who is reliable in the pen besides Mo?

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Beckett isn't in decline.. he's just not that good

Edited by Tyler Durden

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I'm not going to go through that ridiculously long post. Suffice it to say, the Sox won't do it. It's not the direction they are heading. It wouldn't benefit them enough. Giving up 3 major league ready players under the age of 30 for a 34 year old coming off a knee surgery doesn't make sense for any team. Period.

More like the Mets wouldn't do it, because it'd be dumb for them. Taking mediocre garbage from the Red Sox for a top player on a one year deal makes no sense for them.

And yes, it would benefit the Red Sox waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more to make this hypothetical trade than to field an OF with a bunch of mid to low-tier guys in 2011. It's kind of crazy to see nobodies overrated so much.

After reading your stance on Beltran this statement blows my mind:

Cameron was brought on a two year deal and has been productive year in and year out. Not to mention his stellar defense in CF.

I'm actually a huge Mike Cameron fan...power/speed up the middle players are the sh*t...how that statement could be made after all the Beltran stuff you've made up is beyond me.

Oh and since you didn't read my post here's some keys from it:

- You clearly made up that he wouldn't be in CF longer. There's been no reports of such, and why would they let him play CF now then?

- What was his injury? What are the long term effects of that kind of injury? Why do you keep falling back on age when I've given you many examples of top tier players who didn't drop dead or whatever you think happens at 34?

- What made it possible for the just injured and old David Ortiz to post an OPS close to .900 in his age 35 season? How come he didn't continue his downward spiral? Why is Beltran incapable of doing the same?

- Seriously, wtf is so special about what you're giving up in this hypothetical trade?

Edited by SenorGato

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Beckett isn't in decline.. he's just not that good

He is good. When he is healthy, it is just he is never healthy. Oy!

In what sense am I overrating Beltran? He's a f*ckin CF who plays GG D, hits for power, has a great speed game, is a top athlete in the league, and has been a top of the line player for a decade. How many of those guys even exist?

The guy posted a .915 OPS in over 300 ABs in 2009. What decline? You're really sitting there telling me that he's more likely to post the sub-.650 OPS he's putting up right now in less than 200 ABs? Really? That's supposed to be bought because he's 34 and therefore finished?

Hypothetical trade:

Red Sox get:

Beltran

cash

Mets get:

Ellsbury

Michael Bowden

Jed Lowrie

Stephen Fife

There's no way the Red Sox even lose that trade...or the Mets do that trade...but if he were available it'd be a salary dump meaning the Mets would have to give some money just to get a decent return.

Anyway...this isn't the 20th century...guys have done the extraordinary nowadays and somehow been able to stay athletic past 32. It's a crazy concept, but look around and you'll notice it's actually fairly common in sports to be productive and "old." Ryan Kalish and Jacoby Ellsbury are not what elite OFs are made of...iunno how you plan to compete with the Yankees and Rays in 2011 with mid-range talent.

Also, I'd like you to take a look at this and point to me where the obvious trend towards decline is:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/b/beltrca01-bat.shtml

That is a horrible trade for the Sox.

Whether you wrap your fingers around it, Beltran is old.

His 900+ OPS last year was before being injured. In his month back late last season he hit .220. Since his surgery and return this year he is sitting at .211.

Should he better with a full off-season of rehab? Yes. Will he hit his career .851 OPS next year? Maybe, maybe not, but you do not trade a young CF on the rise, and two decent pitching prospects in the hopes Beltran can return to form. Especially, on a one year rental.

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Ellsbury is on the rise? He's not going to get much/any better than he's already been, and he's not bringing a world of health to the table either.

I think Beltran makes alot of sense for the Red Sox. That said I'm wrong, and I just pretty much made a Beltran hype thread. I do understand that if the Mets were to make him available it would immediately have everyone looking at his health.

Still, he'll probably have his best season next year. I'm just saying. He's really good. He also looks healthy, which is more key to next year than what he's hitting after not seeing major league pitching for a year.

Edited by SenorGato

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Ellsbury is on the rise? He's not going to get much/any better than he's already been, and he's not bringing a world of health to the table either.

I think Beltran makes alot of sense for the Red Sox. That said I'm wrong, and I just pretty much made a Beltran hype thread. I do understand that if the Mets were to make him available it would immediately have everyone looking at his health.

Still, he'll probably have his best season next year. I'm just saying. He's really good. He also looks healthy, which is more key to next year than what he's hitting after not seeing major league pitching for a year.

:rolleyes:

Ellsbury's injury was a freak accident and more importantly it was not to his legs or knees. He had played 145 and 153 games his first two seasons.

Seeing that every meaningful stat went up from his first full season to his second full season, he is on the rise.

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