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SenorGato

Hypothetical Trade for both NY teams.

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Mets fans...the Red Sox are pretty much an ideal trading partner if you wanted to trade Beltran...what would it take?

I agree with CC, why would the Sox want Beltran? A .217 average? Really!?!?! :rolleyes:

I might straight swap him for JD and Cameron.

I would not give the Mets anyone in the top 100 in the organization. Plus, the Mets would have to dam near pay all of his remaining 20+ million.

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Seriously?

Anyway, he's a damn good player and he doesn't look finished to me. The Red Sox have a huge hole in the OF that could use a high end veteran to fill the gap until one of the high upside guys in the low minors is ready in a couple years. They have the money to do it, they often do business with the Mets, they drafted his nephew in the first round, and he's a great buy low option for a contender with money to spend because it really is commonplace to hear he's finished.

Crawford looks nice, but his athleticism is wasted in LF at Fenway. Werth is nice, but Beltran would cost less financially, he's a better player at a premium position, AND it's only a one year deal.

Ellsbury is not a FA until 2014.

JD and Cameron are signed through next year.

Kalish has earned a chance to stick with the club next year.

Who knows about Hermedia? McDonald?

And as you mentioned, Reddick and a few others are in the wings.

While not a great OF trio, I think Ellsbury-Kalish-Drew with Cameron coming off the bench is better then shipping a decent prospect for an expensive one year rental. Especially, a mid-30s outfielder coming off a knee injury.

If they are going to pony up cash, make a run at Carl Crawford.

Now, if they move Ellsbury........

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Considering his salary next year, I think it'd be tough to trade Beltran before he proves he's healthy.

Exactly. He has played 41 games to date and is hiiting .212.

.

Beltran >>>>>>>>>>> Ellsbury

No arguments. You forgot one other comparison that is important. 34 > 27 Their ages next April. Ellsbury may never reach Beltran's ceiling, but he could and in 2012 he will still be with the Sox.

Beltran >>>>>>>>>> JD (a RF anyway) and Cameron

Again, no arguments. If the Sox could get rid of those two without having to pay them, then getting Beltran is a no-brainer. However, they are either having to give up a very good prospect and/or assume most of the remaining balances of their contracts or give up crap and probably still assume a good portion of their contracts for next season. Ditto Beltran. What do the Mess want? How much are they willing to pay?

Sure, but you're ignoring that Beltran >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kalish.

No arguments.v3. I think Kalish deserves a spot on the Boston roster next year.

I was thinking more in the low minors...There's some nice guys at the upper levels but the real upside is with Westmoreland and Beltran's little nephew.

Fuentes is a few seasons away and Westmoreland you just do not know about. Relatively speaking, only Reddick and Kalish are close to the big league roster. If healthy, Westmreland is ahead of them, but that remains to be seen.

I think getting a better player trumps any of that.

If the outfield was the only area of concern, then getting Beltran makes perfect sense as long as it does not cost too much. However, there are other areas that need to be addressed first. Catcher. Re-singing Beltre or his replacement. A decent pitching coach.

Crawford's athleticism is completely wasted in Fenway. Compleeeeeeeeeetely wasted.

Maybe, but the Sox need to be more athletic. I see the Rays and sit in amazement of much more athletic they are. It is not even close.

Include him in the trade...because...once again...Beltran >>>>>>>>>>>>>> your OF.

That is a dumb trade. Shipping off a guy to somewhere else in order to bring a 34yo OF in the hopes he recovers from a knee injury and returns to form. Now, there is a caveat to it; the trade would have to fix another problem area.

The Sox problem is the god awful Cameron deal handcuffed them. If they were out from under either Drew, Cameron or both of their contracts, then acquiring Beltran makes more sense, but unfortuntely they are not. If Beltran was the missing piece, then it would make sense regardless of cost. However, he will not be and seeing how his 2011 shapes up remains to be seen. It is a bad move for the Sox. We do not know what their salary ceiling is, but I am willing to bet they are close to it.

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Beckett isn't in decline.. he's just not that good

He is good. When he is healthy, it is just he is never healthy. Oy!

In what sense am I overrating Beltran? He's a f*ckin CF who plays GG D, hits for power, has a great speed game, is a top athlete in the league, and has been a top of the line player for a decade. How many of those guys even exist?

The guy posted a .915 OPS in over 300 ABs in 2009. What decline? You're really sitting there telling me that he's more likely to post the sub-.650 OPS he's putting up right now in less than 200 ABs? Really? That's supposed to be bought because he's 34 and therefore finished?

Hypothetical trade:

Red Sox get:

Beltran

cash

Mets get:

Ellsbury

Michael Bowden

Jed Lowrie

Stephen Fife

There's no way the Red Sox even lose that trade...or the Mets do that trade...but if he were available it'd be a salary dump meaning the Mets would have to give some money just to get a decent return.

Anyway...this isn't the 20th century...guys have done the extraordinary nowadays and somehow been able to stay athletic past 32. It's a crazy concept, but look around and you'll notice it's actually fairly common in sports to be productive and "old." Ryan Kalish and Jacoby Ellsbury are not what elite OFs are made of...iunno how you plan to compete with the Yankees and Rays in 2011 with mid-range talent.

Also, I'd like you to take a look at this and point to me where the obvious trend towards decline is:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/b/beltrca01-bat.shtml

That is a horrible trade for the Sox.

Whether you wrap your fingers around it, Beltran is old.

His 900+ OPS last year was before being injured. In his month back late last season he hit .220. Since his surgery and return this year he is sitting at .211.

Should he better with a full off-season of rehab? Yes. Will he hit his career .851 OPS next year? Maybe, maybe not, but you do not trade a young CF on the rise, and two decent pitching prospects in the hopes Beltran can return to form. Especially, on a one year rental.

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Ellsbury is on the rise? He's not going to get much/any better than he's already been, and he's not bringing a world of health to the table either.

I think Beltran makes alot of sense for the Red Sox. That said I'm wrong, and I just pretty much made a Beltran hype thread. I do understand that if the Mets were to make him available it would immediately have everyone looking at his health.

Still, he'll probably have his best season next year. I'm just saying. He's really good. He also looks healthy, which is more key to next year than what he's hitting after not seeing major league pitching for a year.

:rolleyes:

Ellsbury's injury was a freak accident and more importantly it was not to his legs or knees. He had played 145 and 153 games his first two seasons.

Seeing that every meaningful stat went up from his first full season to his second full season, he is on the rise.

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Gardner > Ellsbury

If by greater then you mean cannot do anything better then Ellsbury......you are correct.

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He's also a no power mediocre OBP OF...Juan Pierre with good D...useful player...not anything all that special.

Also note Red Sox fans...since I really do like this trade for you guys even a couple weeks later...I think it's actually somewhat of a match made in heaven really...Beltran would playing CF in Fenway and not that ginormous CF they have in Citifield...my guess is he'd be a plus out there.

Power is what it is.

Look at Beltran's OBP at 24/25 compared to Ellsbury. They are the same.

Up until this lost season, he was improving. At the end of next season we will see if he was continuing on an improved career path.

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Funnily enough, Francessa was talking about the Red Sox and Mets being perfect matches in many places...I think he's guessing right...the Mets need a 2B...the Red Sox have Lowery and Scutaro...the Red Sox need some power from their OF...the Mets happen to be sick of the best CF of the last decade...a player the Red Sox happen to love...the Mets want a pitcher or two...the Red Sox are absolutely loaded with pitchers...

Plus there's a pretty strong, fairly recent history of the organizations doing business with one other? I'm expecting something big between these two teams this offseason.

And? If he throws enough darts at the board one is eventually going to stick.

Despite your love affair for Beltran, the key words are "the last decade". He will be 34 early next season. Even factoring in injuries his last two years are not great.

Scutaro for Beltran straight up is fair.

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Possibly on the planet you live on, but that planet clearly has few clues about baseball.

The last decade was f*ckin last year lol...David Ortiz was 34 this year and just had a strong comeback season after a wrist injury...soooooo....forgive me if I think your "zomg age and injury!" argument is as speculative as my trade idea. Fact of the matter there really is an ideal fit.

If by strong comeback you mean Big papi raised his average back to .264...yeah it is strong. :rolleyes:

Yeah, if you want to put another 30+ guy in the lineup.

Beltran is old. Maybe escaping citi Field would give him a revival, but he is still old and this team needs youth.

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1. How many 20 HR SSs are there in the league?

2. He's a power/speed guy with an improving batting eye...What's not going to translate well? He's also one of the 5 or so best athletes in the league...

3. I'll believe the Red Sox are going for a nice quiet, in-house offseason when I see it. The pitching staff is as deep as anyone's in the league, and they're not going to sit around and wait for a lineup to develop around it.

4. Reyes >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ellsbury. The guy is a 5 win SS according to WARP and again...this is before he's even 28. 5 win anythings don't grow on trees....to find one at SS...to find one at SS that offers more upside...Yeeeeeeea...I'm going to guess that Scutaro and whatever you're dreaming wouldn't hold back anything.

There is no reason to get Reyes.

Jose Iglesisas will be in the majors late next year and he will battle Scutaro for a spot if the Sox pick-up his option for 2012.

As far as "3" goes, the Sox have to be quiet. If they are not, then Yankees will all of a sudden have interest in player A if for no other reason to drive up the price the Sox pay.

The team that took the field in 2010 will look a lot like the one the takes the field in 2011. There are no Texiera's out there that can make a huge difference. Short of a trade for a big bat, the youth movement will continue.

Edited by PFSIKH

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Oh, sh*t...You shoulda told me Jose Iglesias would be coming up next year. He's WAY better than Jose Reyes...

*cough*Homer*cough*

Yeah...G'luck with that one. You already just told me Iglesias will be up, and there's a gamechanger if there ever was one. Already the team is SIGNIFICANTLY different then. A 20 year old SS who posts a .672 OPS in AA with 49 K's in 221 ABs screams star...I wouldn't want to get in the way of that tsunami of talent.

Edit: Wtf are you talking about here?

You're still crapping your pants over the Yankees? Are you still living in the 90's?

Also, the Yankees can't really mess with the Red Sox trade market if the Red Sox are any kind of shrewd...which your front office is...which is probably why they're not going to bet the entire future on a couple of mediocre prospects like Iglesias. The only guy you've mentioned who has any future with the Red Sox is Reddick, if that.

First, read what I posted.

Iglesias is schedule to be a late season call up. It is Scutaro and Lowrie's position. Iglesias has gold glove potential. His bat is decent, but he has no pop in the bat.

Well as far as 2011, it is what it is. The pitching has 2 Cy candidates and 3 guys that are better then most, but can be all over the board. This will get them to 80+ wins. If reasonably healthy, they can compete with the Yanks and Rays for the playoffs. There is no guy in his prime like Teixera a few years back. There are some good players like Werth, but no difference makers. If they can retain Beltre, Martinexz and maybe Ortiz, they will be ok.

Are you really that clueless? If the Yanks GM is not trying to drive the price up on the Sox then he is an f'ing idiot. And for the record, Theo was the mastermind of the 2010 Sox that were built on great pitching and D. How exactly did that turn out? Theo is a good GM. He has made some great signings in his time, but he also has blown some as well.

Just for the record, Iglesias is very good prospect.

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