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SenorGato

Hypothetical Trade for both NY teams.

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Yankees get:

Justin Upton

Diamondbacks get:

Montero

Brett Gardner

Ivan Nova

Bryan Mitchell

Manny Banuelos

Andrew Brackman

Mets fans...the Red Sox are pretty much an ideal trading partner if you wanted to trade Beltran...what would it take?

Why would the Red Sox want Beltran? And why would they have to give up ANYTHING for him.

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The Mets would have to eat some salary just to get anything decent back...TBH I only threw a Beltran trade out because 1. I hear the less intelligent Mets fans talk about it and 2. Boston really is a tailor made trade partner in many ways....that said, because they'd have to give money to get something back then it's pretty pointless to trade a high end talent with one year on his big money deal, no? They're not going to top Beltran in FA, and getting someone like an Ellsbury back would do nothing for their lineup since they already have Reyes and Pagan at the top of a projected 2011 lineup. Crawford would work very well there, but can Bay play RF? Would you move Beltran to RF for Crawford in CF? Actually that one could work...Citi allows both those guys to showcase their athleticism.

Beltran is how old? He makes how much money? He's hitting how low? Awesome. Thanks but no thanks.

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I can guarantee you right now that Ellsbury will never be the player Beltran is/was. Baseball Prospectus called Beltran a guy who has quietly been building a resume that is HOF worthy. He's along way off from a HOF, but it's hiiiiiighly unlikely he's going to be posting a sub-.650 OPS season every again. There's no way Boston would be losing 2011 value in that trade, and if that were to happen it's because they want the best 2011 team possible. The guy is an elite defensive CF, a top of the line power/speed offensive player, one of the best and most efficient base runners in the game (he's actually a historically great basestealer), AND he gets on base. You think all that is done because he's one year older and he had a small knee surgery?

Honestly, it sounds more to me like you 1. overrate what the Red Sox are giving up/already have 2. playing it extremely safe without considering everything and 3. know nothing about the player beyond age and injury. Now you have me rooting for this trade to happen. It won't unless the Mets are actually as dumb as the papers make them seem.

Also, what's wrong with Cameron in LF (he's been declining defensively anyways), Beltran in CF, and Drew in RF? Despite the age that's probably one of the best defensive OFs in the league.

On Carl Crawford and the Red Sox: Unless the Red Sox plan to move him into CF then them getting a more athletic LF doesn't really do much for them in Fenway. Smart OFers with less athleticism could play that spot well just by knowing how to play with the wall. Werth kind of makes sense because he can play LF and Drew's on the way out anyway. Crawford...not so much. Alot of Crawford's value is tied into his defense...which is tied into his range...Honestly, if you're targeting a possibly available Devil Ray it should be BJ Upton.

So Beltran is going to have a career rebirth at age 34 coming off of an injury and not being healthy or playing a full slate of games. You want to insert that to play with JD Drew who is always hurt and Mike Cameron who will be 38 and coming off of torn abdominal surgery? Really? For the money, you stick with Ellsbury.

People wanted to get rid of Buchholz in a plethora of make believe trades too....

The Red Sox need to figure out what they're going to do with Beltre, Ortiz and Martinez long before the consider trading for a washed up Carlos Beltran.

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Sorry for the long posts...I really like to talk baseball...I think there's a complete lack of analysis on the other side.

And a complete lack of sense on your side. Check out Theo's history of bringing in players. What makes you think there is even a one percent chance he'd consider bringing in Beltran? Nonetheless trading away young players for him. It doesn't make sense.

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...I don't get it. What's Theo's history?

Also not sure how the Red Sox trading for an elite CF on a one year deal doesn't make sense for them. It makes complete sense for a 2011 run.

1. He's not elite. Not anymore at least.

2. There are a plethora of outfielders already under contract for next year. Unless someone is willing to take on Drew's 14 million or Camerons near 8 million, it's not happening.

3. Theo doesn't trade for older players, especially since 2010 and 2011 were "bridge years" in his terms to get the Sox to 2012 and the prospects he thinks will be ready by then.

You're not spinning a winning argument at all. Why would the Sox give up even decent prospects for someone who plays a position that the Sox aren't concerned about for next season. Catcher, 3rd base and bullpen are at the top of the priority list. Not to mention DH.

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Yea...bullsh*t. One year is not a trend. There still isn't 5 CFers in the league I'd take over Beltran.

Which makes it easy to trade one for a better player...We're not exactly talking superstar talent with any of the guys you're talking about here.

I also don't get why you make a big deal about money when the Red Sox have the 2nd highest payroll in baseball.

He traded for a 30 year old no defense catcher just last year...Theo also loves buying low on guys with big upside (Hermida and Saltamacchia come to mind).

The Red Sox aren't worried about CF? They're totally closed to the idea of upgrading the position?

I'm still failing to see the holes in my argument. Your whole shtick is based around the age, which is bullsh*t, the injury, which you have no clue about, and the fact that the Red Sox are loaded with mediocre outfielders so why would they want a good one? Fact of the matter is that if Beltran were to be made available this offseason he'd be at absolute worst the 2nd best position player available...and he plays a far more valuable position than Crawford's LF...especially given the way is Fenway is built.

You underrate the crap out of Beltran.

I think you overrate him. Theo traded for a 30 year old ctacher who could also play first base and was productive and healthy. The Red Sox have some big time money coming off of the payroll next season. Why would they add to it with an aging outfielder on the decline when they already have someone in that position?

Okay, so tell me this before I go any deeper into this ridiculousness. What would the Sox give up? Unless we're talking a whole lot of nothing, then it wouldn't even be considered.

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In what sense am I overrating Beltran? He's a f*ckin CF who plays GG D, hits for power, has a great speed game, is a top athlete in the league, and has been a top of the line player for a decade. How many of those guys even exist?

The guy posted a .915 OPS in over 300 ABs in 2009. What decline? You're really sitting there telling me that he's more likely to post the sub-.650 OPS he's putting up right now in less than 200 ABs? Really? That's supposed to be bought because he's 34 and therefore finished?

Hypothetical trade:

Red Sox get:

Beltran

cash

Mets get:

Ellsbury

Michael Bowden

Jed Lowrie

Stephen Fife

There's no way the Red Sox even lose that trade...or the Mets do that trade...but if he were available it'd be a salary dump meaning the Mets would have to give some money just to get a decent return.

Anyway...this isn't the 20th century...guys have done the extraordinary nowadays and somehow been able to stay athletic past 32. It's a crazy concept, but look around and you'll notice it's actually fairly common in sports to be productive and "old." Ryan Kalish and Jacoby Ellsbury are not what elite OFs are made of...iunno how you plan to compete with the Yankees and Rays in 2011 with mid-range talent.

Also, I'd like you to take a look at this and point to me where the obvious trend towards decline is:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/b/beltrca01-bat.shtml

That's an awful trade for the Red Sox. I remember the hypothetical trades of Buchholz for Salty. Now look.

Beltran probably isn't going to be a CFer much longer. The Mets are thinking about moving him to a corner in the off-season. He was an elite player. He will not get back to elite status at his age and the surgery he just had. He's struggled mightily since coming back. It may turn around for him, but not to the player he once was.

I still fail to see how this helps the Red Sox. 2011 if Beltran had a bounce back year it may help but then he'd probably bolt because the Sox don't give out multiple year contracts to 35 year old players. The Red Sox and Epstein are more about building more than just a 2011 contender. They want to build something bigger than that. Trading for Beltran doesn't accomplish that goal. It sets them further back.

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I'm not going to go through that ridiculously long post. Suffice it to say, the Sox won't do it. It's not the direction they are heading. It wouldn't benefit them enough. Giving up 3 major league ready players under the age of 30 for a 34 year old coming off a knee surgery doesn't make sense for any team. Period.

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'CrazyCarl40'

3. Theo doesn't trade for older players, especially since 2010 and 2011

No, he just signs washed up old players (Camereon and Lackey) and resigns once great pitchers (Beckett) on serious decline

And you wonder why the Sawx are a 3rd place ballclub :rolleyes:

Beckett is on a decline? I'd like to see that one proved.

Cameron was brought on a two year deal and has been productive year in and year out. Not to mention his stellar defense in CF.

Lackey is not old, has been a top tier pitcher for years and is a playoff stalwart.

The Red Sox are a third place club because the Yankees and the Rays are good. The Sox would be within 3 games of any other division. Before the injuries took their toll they were a half game out.

Stop talking about the Red Sox and worry about the Yankees. CC cannot pitcher every game and who is reliable in the pen besides Mo?

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Funnily enough, Francessa was talking about the Red Sox and Mets being perfect matches in many places...I think he's guessing right...the Mets need a 2B...the Red Sox have Lowery and Scutaro...the Red Sox need some power from their OF...the Mets happen to be sick of the best CF of the last decade...a player the Red Sox happen to love...the Mets want a pitcher or two...the Red Sox are absolutely loaded with pitchers...

Plus there's a pretty strong, fairly recent history of the organizations doing business with one other? I'm expecting something big between these two teams this offseason.

LOL! Scutaro is a SS. The best CF of the last decade has won what exactly? Theo told you the Sox love him? The Red Sox are not going to give up anything significant for Beltran. Get over it.

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Well, tonight pretty much killed that.

On to Jose Reyes to the Red Sox for a major haul...these two teams are going to do a big deal together this offseason.

Beltran wasn't going to happen anyway.

Reyes won't happen either, unless the Mets take Scutaro and his contract. I'd like to see your definition of major haul. I don't think a guy with a career OBP of .335 would garner a "major haul." May a prospect or two with Scutaro but nothing significant.

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.

Sure it wasn't.

ROtfl...g'd you're a homer. Marco f'ing Scutaro would not get in the way of that kind of trade. No matter what he makes...no matter what special attributes you've chosen to give him...If the Red Sox can upgrade up the middle this offseason I think they will...Scutaro be damned. If Jose Reyes became available they'd be first on line.

All I'm saying is they'd have to move Scutaro first. Easier said than done. Reyes is good, not great. Not worth trading the farm for, that's for sure. You overvalue MEts players. Hard.

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:Facepalm...

Really?

In the same post in which you insist that Scutaro would somehow make the Red Sox hesitate to acquire a top 3-5 SS entering his prime?

Again, reading comprehension. Not Scutaro himself, but his contract. Reyes is an upgrade, but you're not going to have a back-up SS making that kind of money. The Sox aren't the Yanks.

Edited by CrazyCarl40

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Yes, what I'm saying is that they're way more likely to get the top SS and worry about Scutaro later.

The Sox aren't the Yankees, but they're not going to cry over 5 million for a top of the line utility infielder, which Scutaro is when he's not a starting SS.

Scutaro won't want to be a utility infielder and that would stunt the growth of Jed Lowrie. I'm not saying the Sox wouldn't explore it, but Scutaro would most likely have to be shipped elsewhere.

Reyes still isn't a huge upgrade. He'd be a number 9 hitter in the AL, which Scutaro was supposed to be this season. Reyes plays better D, has better speed and is younger, but I don't think I'd give up a ton to get him. Hanley Ramirez coming back would be a different story.

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Lowerie would be in the Reyes trade if it were to happen.

Another :facepalm: to that second paragraph...and I only read a sentence and a half of it. You're making my head hurt with this stuff...Let me guess...Reyes wouldn't push Ellsbury out of the leadoff spot? Lol...homers.

No. Reyes wouldn't. His .335 career OBP in the National League would not be good enough to push Ellsbury out. That's not homer anything. That's stats and facts. Provide some for your arguments if you would like to make them make sense.

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Um...from '06-'09 he averaged a .355 OBP...and he steals bases in bunches at an 80% success rate...not to mention he hits a ton of doubles and triples with above average HR power....Also, he's entering his prime years now so you can probably expect a better OBP and more power....from a SS who doesn't suck at playing SS.

You're being a homer.

I do agree that they'd probably want HRam more.

He's never hit more than 20 homeruns. That is not above average power. The OBP of .355 is better, but that's what Jacoby's was in the AL in 2009. And what you're missing is there is no guarantee that Reyes' game comes to the AL and translates well.

Like I said, they have a lot of in house things to take care of before the look to upgrade positions where they already have penciled in starters, especially upgrade that involve the trading of prospects.

I'm not being a homer, but I'm glad you can resort to call names. That's very big of you.

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