Hypothetical Trade for both NY teams.

[PFSIKH]

Gardner > Ellsbury

If by greater then you mean cannot do anything better then Ellsbury......you are correct.

[Morrissey]

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/articles/2010/09/19/some_red_flags_as_pennant_races_are_unfurling/?page=4

A couple of Mets officials have told me they may make a run at Jacoby Ellsbury this winter;

[SenorGato]

Ellsbury's injury was a freak accident and more importantly it was not to his legs or knees. He had played 145 and 153 games his first two seasons.

Seeing that every meaningful stat went up from his first full season to his second full season, he is on the rise.

He's also a no power mediocre OBP OF...Juan Pierre with good D...useful player...not anything all that special.

Also note Red Sox fans...since I really do like this trade for you guys even a couple weeks later...I think it's actually somewhat of a match made in heaven really...Beltran would playing CF in Fenway and not that ginormous CF they have in Citifield...my guess is he'd be a plus out there.

[PFSIKH]

He's also a no power mediocre OBP OF...Juan Pierre with good D...useful player...not anything all that special.

Also note Red Sox fans...since I really do like this trade for you guys even a couple weeks later...I think it's actually somewhat of a match made in heaven really...Beltran would playing CF in Fenway and not that ginormous CF they have in Citifield...my guess is he'd be a plus out there.

Power is what it is.

Look at Beltran's OBP at 24/25 compared to Ellsbury. They are the same.

Up until this lost season, he was improving. At the end of next season we will see if he was continuing on an improved career path.

[SenorGato]

Power is what it is.

Look at Beltran's OBP at 24/25 compared to Ellsbury. They are the same.

Up until this lost season, he was improving. At the end of next season we will see if he was continuing on an improved career path.

True...Beltran's still better and much more likely to be better next year.

[SenorGato]

Funnily enough, Francessa was talking about the Red Sox and Mets being perfect matches in many places...I think he's guessing right...the Mets need a 2B...the Red Sox have Lowery and Scutaro...the Red Sox need some power from their OF...the Mets happen to be sick of the best CF of the last decade...a player the Red Sox happen to love...the Mets want a pitcher or two...the Red Sox are absolutely loaded with pitchers...

Plus there's a pretty strong, fairly recent history of the organizations doing business with one other? I'm expecting something big between these two teams this offseason.

[CrazyCarl40]

Funnily enough, Francessa was talking about the Red Sox and Mets being perfect matches in many places...I think he's guessing right...the Mets need a 2B...the Red Sox have Lowery and Scutaro...the Red Sox need some power from their OF...the Mets happen to be sick of the best CF of the last decade...a player the Red Sox happen to love...the Mets want a pitcher or two...the Red Sox are absolutely loaded with pitchers...

Plus there's a pretty strong, fairly recent history of the organizations doing business with one other? I'm expecting something big between these two teams this offseason.

LOL! Scutaro is a SS. The best CF of the last decade has won what exactly? Theo told you the Sox love him? The Red Sox are not going to give up anything significant for Beltran. Get over it.

[SenorGato]

LOL! Scutaro is a SS. The best CF of the last decade has won what exactly? Theo told you the Sox love him? The Red Sox are not going to give up anything significant for Beltran. Get over it.

1. I know Scutaro is a SS. Believe it or not, that probably makes him able to play 2B. It wouldn't exactly be like asking Derek Jeter to move off his position.

2. Wtf does it matter what Beltran's won? Is that the special skill the Red Sox are looking for in acquisitons? Winners? What year are you in?

3. The Sox were in the top 5 IIRC for Beltran's services back when he was a free agent.

4. What counts as significant to you? Pretty much anyone in the farm system that'll make it...which is everyone?

[doramide7]

Seriously?

Anyway, he's a damn good player and he doesn't look finished to me. The Red Sox have a huge hole in the OF that could use a high end veteran to fill the gap until one of the high upside guys in the low minors is ready in a couple years. They have the money to do it, they often do business with the Mets, they drafted his nephew in the first round, and he's a great buy low option for a contender with money to spend because it really is commonplace to hear he's finished.

Crawford looks nice, but his athleticism is wasted in LF at Fenway. Werth is nice, but Beltran would cost less financially, he's a better player at a premium position, AND it's only a one year deal.

That's not a credible package. That is far too much going too Arizona. Justin Upton isn't Josh Hamilton. .797 OPS... that isn't exactly stellar from a corner outfielder. I know his potential, but we need to see it fulfilled before anyone gives up their farm for him.

[Blackout]

Beltran is damaged goods

[PFSIKH]

Funnily enough, Francessa was talking about the Red Sox and Mets being perfect matches in many places...I think he's guessing right...the Mets need a 2B...the Red Sox have Lowery and Scutaro...the Red Sox need some power from their OF...the Mets happen to be sick of the best CF of the last decade...a player the Red Sox happen to love...the Mets want a pitcher or two...the Red Sox are absolutely loaded with pitchers...

Plus there's a pretty strong, fairly recent history of the organizations doing business with one other? I'm expecting something big between these two teams this offseason.

And? If he throws enough darts at the board one is eventually going to stick.

Despite your love affair for Beltran, the key words are "the last decade". He will be 34 early next season. Even factoring in injuries his last two years are not great.

Scutaro for Beltran straight up is fair.

[SenorGato]

And? If he throws enough darts at the board one is eventually going to stick.

Despite your love affair for Beltran, the key words are "the last decade". He will be 34 early next season. Even factoring in injuries his last two years are not great.

Scutaro for Beltran straight up is fair.

Possibly on the planet you live on, but that planet clearly has few clues about baseball.

The last decade was f*ckin last year lol...David Ortiz was 34 this year and just had a strong comeback season after a wrist injury...soooooo....forgive me if I think your "zomg age and injury!" argument is as speculative as my trade idea. Fact of the matter there really is an ideal fit.

[PFSIKH]

Possibly on the planet you live on, but that planet clearly has few clues about baseball.

The last decade was f*ckin last year lol...David Ortiz was 34 this year and just had a strong comeback season after a wrist injury...soooooo....forgive me if I think your "zomg age and injury!" argument is as speculative as my trade idea. Fact of the matter there really is an ideal fit.

If by strong comeback you mean Big papi raised his average back to .264...yeah it is strong.

Yeah, if you want to put another 30+ guy in the lineup.

Beltran is old. Maybe escaping citi Field would give him a revival, but he is still old and this team needs youth.

[SenorGato]

Well, tonight pretty much killed that.

On to Jose Reyes to the Red Sox for a major haul...these two teams are going to do a big deal together this offseason.

[CrazyCarl40]

Well, tonight pretty much killed that.

On to Jose Reyes to the Red Sox for a major haul...these two teams are going to do a big deal together this offseason.

Beltran wasn't going to happen anyway.

Reyes won't happen either, unless the Mets take Scutaro and his contract. I'd like to see your definition of major haul. I don't think a guy with a career OBP of .335 would garner a "major haul." May a prospect or two with Scutaro but nothing significant.

[SenorGato]

Beltran wasn't going to happen anyway.

.

Sure it wasn't.

ROtfl...g'd you're a homer. Marco f'ing Scutaro would not get in the way of that kind of trade. No matter what he makes...no matter what special attributes you've chosen to give him...If the Red Sox can upgrade up the middle this offseason I think they will...Scutaro be damned. If Jose Reyes became available they'd be first on line.

[CrazyCarl40]

.

Sure it wasn't.

ROtfl...g'd you're a homer. Marco f'ing Scutaro would not get in the way of that kind of trade. No matter what he makes...no matter what special attributes you've chosen to give him...If the Red Sox can upgrade up the middle this offseason I think they will...Scutaro be damned. If Jose Reyes became available they'd be first on line.

All I'm saying is they'd have to move Scutaro first. Easier said than done. Reyes is good, not great. Not worth trading the farm for, that's for sure. You overvalue MEts players. Hard.

[SenorGato]

All I'm saying is they'd have to move Scutaro first. Easier said than done. Reyes is good, not great. Not worth trading the farm for, that's for sure. You overvalue MEts players. Hard.

:Facepalm...

Really?

In the same post in which you insist that Scutaro would somehow make the Red Sox hesitate to acquire a top 3-5 SS entering his prime?

[CrazyCarl40]

:Facepalm...

Really?

In the same post in which you insist that Scutaro would somehow make the Red Sox hesitate to acquire a top 3-5 SS entering his prime?

Again, reading comprehension. Not Scutaro himself, but his contract. Reyes is an upgrade, but you're not going to have a back-up SS making that kind of money. The Sox aren't the Yanks.

[SenorGato]

Again, reading comprehension. Not Scutaro himself, but his contract. Reyes is an upgrade, but you're not going to have a back-up SS making that kind of money. The Sox aren't the Yanks.

Yes, what I'm saying is that they're way more likely to get the top SS and worry about Scutaro later.

The Sox aren't the Yankees, but they're not going to cry over 5 million for a top of the line utility infielder, which Scutaro is when he's not a starting SS.

[CrazyCarl40]

Yes, what I'm saying is that they're way more likely to get the top SS and worry about Scutaro later.

The Sox aren't the Yankees, but they're not going to cry over 5 million for a top of the line utility infielder, which Scutaro is when he's not a starting SS.

Scutaro won't want to be a utility infielder and that would stunt the growth of Jed Lowrie. I'm not saying the Sox wouldn't explore it, but Scutaro would most likely have to be shipped elsewhere.

Reyes still isn't a huge upgrade. He'd be a number 9 hitter in the AL, which Scutaro was supposed to be this season. Reyes plays better D, has better speed and is younger, but I don't think I'd give up a ton to get him. Hanley Ramirez coming back would be a different story.

[SenorGato]

Scutaro won't want to be a utility infielder and that would stunt the growth of Jed Lowrie. I'm not saying the Sox wouldn't explore it, but Scutaro would most likely have to be shipped elsewhere.

Reyes still isn't a huge upgrade. He'd be a number 9 hitter in the AL, which Scutaro was supposed to be this season. Reyes plays better D, has better speed and is younger, but I don't think I'd give up a ton to get him. Hanley Ramirez coming back would be a different story.

Lowerie would be in the Reyes trade if it were to happen.

Another :facepalm: to that second paragraph...and I only read a sentence and a half of it. You're making my head hurt with this stuff...Let me guess...Reyes wouldn't push Ellsbury out of the leadoff spot? Lol...homers.

[CrazyCarl40]

Lowerie would be in the Reyes trade if it were to happen.

Another :facepalm: to that second paragraph...and I only read a sentence and a half of it. You're making my head hurt with this stuff...Let me guess...Reyes wouldn't push Ellsbury out of the leadoff spot? Lol...homers.

No. Reyes wouldn't. His .335 career OBP in the National League would not be good enough to push Ellsbury out. That's not homer anything. That's stats and facts. Provide some for your arguments if you would like to make them make sense.

[SenorGato]

No. Reyes wouldn't. His .335 career OBP in the National League would not be good enough to push Ellsbury out. That's not homer anything. That's stats and facts. Provide some for your arguments if you would like to make them make sense.

Um...from '06-'09 he averaged a .355 OBP...and he steals bases in bunches at an 80% success rate...not to mention he hits a ton of doubles and triples with above average HR power....Also, he's entering his prime years now so you can probably expect a better OBP and more power....from a SS who doesn't suck at playing SS.

You're being a homer.

I do agree that they'd probably want HRam more.

[CrazyCarl40]

Um...from '06-'09 he averaged a .355 OBP...and he steals bases in bunches at an 80% success rate...not to mention he hits a ton of doubles and triples with above average HR power....Also, he's entering his prime years now so you can probably expect a better OBP and more power....from a SS who doesn't suck at playing SS.

You're being a homer.

I do agree that they'd probably want HRam more.

He's never hit more than 20 homeruns. That is not above average power. The OBP of .355 is better, but that's what Jacoby's was in the AL in 2009. And what you're missing is there is no guarantee that Reyes' game comes to the AL and translates well.

Like I said, they have a lot of in house things to take care of before the look to upgrade positions where they already have penciled in starters, especially upgrade that involve the trading of prospects.

I'm not being a homer, but I'm glad you can resort to call names. That's very big of you.

[SenorGato]

He's never hit more than 20 homeruns. That is not above average power. The OBP of .355 is better, but that's what Jacoby's was in the AL in 2009. And what you're missing is there is no guarantee that Reyes' game comes to the AL and translates well.

Like I said, they have a lot of in house things to take care of before the look to upgrade positions where they already have penciled in starters, especially upgrade that involve the trading of prospects.

I'm not being a homer, but I'm glad you can resort to call names. That's very big of you.

1. How many 20 HR SSs are there in the league?

2. He's a power/speed guy with an improving batting eye...What's not going to translate well? He's also one of the 5 or so best athletes in the league...

3. I'll believe the Red Sox are going for a nice quiet, in-house offseason when I see it. The pitching staff is as deep as anyone's in the league, and they're not going to sit around and wait for a lineup to develop around it.

4. Reyes >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ellsbury. The guy is a 5 win SS according to WARP and again...this is before he's even 28. 5 win anythings don't grow on trees....to find one at SS...to find one at SS that offers more upside...Yeeeeeeea...I'm going to guess that Scutaro and whatever you're dreaming wouldn't hold back anything.

[PFSIKH]

1. How many 20 HR SSs are there in the league?

2. He's a power/speed guy with an improving batting eye...What's not going to translate well? He's also one of the 5 or so best athletes in the league...

3. I'll believe the Red Sox are going for a nice quiet, in-house offseason when I see it. The pitching staff is as deep as anyone's in the league, and they're not going to sit around and wait for a lineup to develop around it.

4. Reyes >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ellsbury. The guy is a 5 win SS according to WARP and again...this is before he's even 28. 5 win anythings don't grow on trees....to find one at SS...to find one at SS that offers more upside...Yeeeeeeea...I'm going to guess that Scutaro and whatever you're dreaming wouldn't hold back anything.

There is no reason to get Reyes.

Jose Iglesisas will be in the majors late next year and he will battle Scutaro for a spot if the Sox pick-up his option for 2012.

As far as "3" goes, the Sox have to be quiet. If they are not, then Yankees will all of a sudden have interest in player A if for no other reason to drive up the price the Sox pay.

The team that took the field in 2010 will look a lot like the one the takes the field in 2011. There are no Texiera's out there that can make a huge difference. Short of a trade for a big bat, the youth movement will continue.

[SenorGato]

There is no reason to get Reyes.

Jose Iglesisas will be in the majors late next year and he will battle Scutaro for a spot if the Sox pick-up his option for 2012.

Oh, sh*t...You shoulda told me Jose Iglesias would be coming up next year. He's WAY better than Jose Reyes...

*cough*Homer*cough*

The team that took the field in 2010 will look a lot like the one the takes the field in 2011.

Yeah...G'luck with that one. You already just told me Iglesias will be up, and there's a gamechanger if there ever was one. Already the team is SIGNIFICANTLY different then. A 20 year old SS who posts a .672 OPS in AA with 49 K's in 221 ABs screams star...I wouldn't want to get in the way of that tsunami of talent.

Edit: Wtf are you talking about here?

As far as "3" goes, the Sox have to be quiet. If they are not, then Yankees will all of a sudden have interest in player A if for no other reason to drive up the price the Sox pay.

You're still crapping your pants over the Yankees? Are you still living in the 90's?

Also, the Yankees can't really mess with the Red Sox trade market if the Red Sox are any kind of shrewd...which your front office is...which is probably why they're not going to bet the entire future on a couple of mediocre prospects like Iglesias. The only guy you've mentioned who has any future with the Red Sox is Reddick, if that.

[PFSIKH]

Oh, sh*t...You shoulda told me Jose Iglesias would be coming up next year. He's WAY better than Jose Reyes...

*cough*Homer*cough*

Yeah...G'luck with that one. You already just told me Iglesias will be up, and there's a gamechanger if there ever was one. Already the team is SIGNIFICANTLY different then. A 20 year old SS who posts a .672 OPS in AA with 49 K's in 221 ABs screams star...I wouldn't want to get in the way of that tsunami of talent.

Edit: Wtf are you talking about here?

You're still crapping your pants over the Yankees? Are you still living in the 90's?

Also, the Yankees can't really mess with the Red Sox trade market if the Red Sox are any kind of shrewd...which your front office is...which is probably why they're not going to bet the entire future on a couple of mediocre prospects like Iglesias. The only guy you've mentioned who has any future with the Red Sox is Reddick, if that.

First, read what I posted.

Iglesias is schedule to be a late season call up. It is Scutaro and Lowrie's position. Iglesias has gold glove potential. His bat is decent, but he has no pop in the bat.

Well as far as 2011, it is what it is. The pitching has 2 Cy candidates and 3 guys that are better then most, but can be all over the board. This will get them to 80+ wins. If reasonably healthy, they can compete with the Yanks and Rays for the playoffs. There is no guy in his prime like Teixera a few years back. There are some good players like Werth, but no difference makers. If they can retain Beltre, Martinexz and maybe Ortiz, they will be ok.

Are you really that clueless? If the Yanks GM is not trying to drive the price up on the Sox then he is an f'ing idiot. And for the record, Theo was the mastermind of the 2010 Sox that were built on great pitching and D. How exactly did that turn out? Theo is a good GM. He has made some great signings in his time, but he also has blown some as well.

Just for the record, Iglesias is very good prospect.

[SenorGato]

First, read what I posted.

Iglesias is schedule to be a late season call up. It is Scutaro and Lowrie's position. Iglesias has gold glove potential. His bat is decent, but he has no pop in the bat.

I did...I still think Scutaro/Lowerie/Iglesias would not stop the Red Sox from acquiring a potential super star SS.

Are you really that clueless? If the Yanks GM is not trying to drive the price up on the Sox then he is an f'ing idiot. And for the record, Theo was the mastermind of the 2010 Sox that were built on great pitching and D. How exactly did that turn out? Theo is a good GM. He has made some great signings in his time, but he also has blown some as well.

Theo Epstein's a top 5 GM and had the Yankees playing catchup with the Red Sox for a minute. If he thinks pitching and D didn't work as well then he'll go offense...and Carlos Beltran or Jose Reyes would be a nice, big way to go offense at a prime time position. I can't wait to see the big move in his back pocket. I have noooo clue why you actually seem to believe the Red Sox won't try to flex some muscle this offseason...They're entirely capable of it with that farm system and the money they can have to spend if they want to spend it.