Could This Be The Best Special teams Units We've Had?

[SoFlaJets]

From what I've seen so far from Westhoff's units the KOR PR FG units and punting as well as the cover teams have been almost totally revamped with young and hungry kids. If you think back to the 1998 season when the ST's actually won us a couple of games you'll know how big they can be. I like what I'm seeing-Westhoff's units could be the difference between an AFCE championship and a wildcard if the defense does what we think it can and Schotty's offense doesn't kill us again like parts of the past few years.

[Jbro22]

I don't know, I hope it's not just smoke and mirrors right now. I feel like ST's were a big concern heading into the season with all the stars we picked up this year. Trusnik and Wright were big ST losses from last year.

But they have been playing well, Ihedigbo and Smith stick out the most to me.

[slats]

Westhoff's units could be the difference between an AFCE championship and a wildcard if the defense does what we think it can and Schotty's offense doesn't kill us again...

I agree with you, Jimmy, ST's look very special so far this year. A bright spot in a dim preseason. I'd like a more dynamic KOR, but you can't have everything. Coverage teams have been great. Folk, while not the KO man in Dallas, has shown himself to be an improvement over Feely in that department.

People talk about the defense that the 2000 Ravens had, but their special teams were also top notch. It was both of those units that carried that offense to the Super Bowl title. We need both of those here, too, if we have any hopes of competing.

[SoFlaJets]

I'm not impressed at all with David Clowney as Wallace's replacement at gunner though

[PatsFanTX]

From what I've seen so far from Westhoff's units the KOR PR FG units and punting as well as the cover teams have been almost totally revamped with young and hungry kids. If you think back to the 1998 season when the ST's actually won us a couple of games you'll know how big they can be. I like what I'm seeing-Westhoff's units could be the difference between an AFCE championship and a wildcard if the defense does what we think it can and Schotty's offense doesn't kill us again like parts of the past few years.

How many games did the Jets Special Teams cost the Jets last year?

[SoFlaJets]

How many games did the Jets Special Teams cost the Jets last year?

off the top of my head the second Miami game with Ted Ginn scoring 2 TD's against us

[PatsFanTX]

off the top of my head the second Miami game with Ted Ginn scoring 2 TD's against us

Falcons game as well.

Poor KO's, poor punt coverage, gave the Falcons good field position all day.

[slats]

I'm not impressed at all with David Clowney as Wallace's replacement at gunner though

I don't think Clowney is going to make this team. You might see your boy Larry Taylor getting some work at the gunner spot tomorrow night. Watching Hard Knocks, you get the feeling that Westoff is done with Clowney, and ready to take lil' LT under his wing.

[SoFlaJets]

Falcons game as well.

Poor KO's, poor punt coverage, gave the Falcons good field position all day.

yea-I just asked my wife about that game before I saw your reply here. This year's units are faster and hungrier-also: no James Dearth

[SoFlaJets]

I don't think Clowney is going to make this team. You might see your boy Larry Taylor getting some work at the gunner spot tomorrow night. Watching Hard Knocks, you get the feeling that Westoff is done with Clowney, and ready to take lil' LT under his wing.

I hope so too slats-I saw those videos of Taylor last year up in Canada and he is explosive-I wonder if he can tackle?

[#27TheDominator]

I agree with you, Jimmy, ST's look very special so far this year. A bright spot in a dim preseason. I'd like a more dynamic KOR, but you can't have everything. Coverage teams have been great. Folk, while not the KO man in Dallas, has shown himself to be an improvement over Feely in that department.

People talk about the defense that the 2000 Ravens had, but their special teams were also top notch. It was both of those units that carried that offense to the Super Bowl title. We need both of those here, too, if we have any hopes of competing.

I think the change the rules has changed the KOR. Ours is worse and so is everybody else's. IIRC, the first return against the 'skins was called back for an "illegal wedge" and even then they let somebody in untouched. I think Westhoff didn't catch up to it last year. He seems to be much more involved in personnel this season and they have stated that starters will play ST.

FWIW, I think Clowney makes it, but I haven't been able to see too much of him on specials, so maybe I'm off. I find it odd that you think that Clemens is getting screwed and hasn't gotten a fair shake while you are so ready to cut Clowney. He had some decent games when he was called upon.

[SoFlaJets]

I think the change the rules has changed the KOR. Ours is worse and so is everybody else's. IIRC, the first return against the 'skins was called back for an "illegal wedge" and even then they let somebody in untouched. I think Westhoff didn't catch up to it last year. He seems to be much more involved in personnel this season and they have stated that starters will play ST.

FWIW, I think Clowney makes it, but I haven't been able to see too much of him on specials, so maybe I'm off. I find it odd that you think that Clemens is getting screwed and hasn't gotten a fair shake while you are so ready to cut Clowney. He had some decent games when he was called upon.

he's not good enough to be one-dimensional Dom...Rex was complaining about him yesterday too at his PC about how it could be that he doesn't make more of an impact on ST's. Also, that little conversation they had on Hard Knocks on whether they would consider calling his number when there are so many other pass catchers in front of him-he's like option 6 there.

[slats]

I find it odd that you think that Clemens is getting screwed and hasn't gotten a fair shake while you are so ready to cut Clowney. He had some decent games when he was called upon.

Clemens never lived up to the hype, so a lot of it is on him, obviously - but yeah, I definitely think the Jets are screwing him. They placed the low tender on him to begin with, he signed it rather than show his displeasure by sitting out OTA's, etc., and maybe coercing a trade or release then. The Jets reward that by demanding that he take a $500K pay cut in an uncapped year? He could definitely be a #2 QB somewhere else. You really don't have to look any further than the Giants as a possible destination. He's too nice a guy, who says he wants to play here. I don't get it. He's been jerked around so much since he was drafted with Favre, then Sanchez, and now Brunell, I can't believe he's really happy here.

With Clowney, it seems the coaches talk about him a lot, and almost all of it is how he's not playing up to his potential. It's the opposite of the way they talk about Woodhead, for example, who they can't seem to get enough of. I think these guys are both fighting for those same last couple ST-based roster spots, and that Clowney's on the outside looking in. With his speed, he should be a return man - but he's not. He's not getting downfield as a gunner. What is he exactly?

His couple of decent games came when Cotch was hurt and they'd just traded for Braylon - coming against Miami and Oakland. Other than that, he's really done nothing on offense. Cotch came back, and he was back to being invisible. Now the Jets have added Holmes, and have LT, McKnight, and -yes- Woodhead, who can all catch the ball. I just don't see a spot for him.

[#27TheDominator]

he's not good enough to be one-dimensional Dom...Rex was complaining about him yesterday too at his PC about how it could be that he doesn't make more of an impact on ST's. Also, that little conversation they had on Hard Knocks on whether they would consider calling his number when there are so many other pass catchers in front of him-he's like option 6 there.

I didn't see that as a complaint. He said he wanted more, Ryan spent more time praising his physical ability. I don't see Taylor or any of these other guys playing gunner and they may well be physically incapable. It's funny that the thread is about how you like the coverage, but then want to criticize the player. Even if Clowney is one dimensional, what dimension does Taylor bring that isn't covered by McKnight? I think they go with the more polished WR option, at least until Holmes returns. IMO that's Clowney. If Coles were kept I'd be more inclined to expect Clowney to be out for a ST'er.

[Bruce Banner]

Back up LBers and TEs are the best raw material for STs. Some people have said that one of the advantages of the 3-4 defense is more LBers for STs but I'm too lazy too look up who said that. Might have been Parcells. This roster is going to give Westhoff tons of prime candidates for STs, he better do well with it.

[Integrity28]

How many games did the Jets Special Teams cost the Jets last year?

In the Year of the Lord Favre two-thousand and the eight... Jets special teams saved the Jets in quite a few close games, giving the impression that the team was much better than it was. Leon Washington specifically bailed Mangini and Favre out in at least 2-3 games himself.

[SoFlaJets]

I didn't see that as a complaint. He said he wanted more, Ryan spent more time praising his physical ability. I don't see Taylor or any of these other guys playing gunner and they may well be physically incapable. It's funny that the thread is about how you like the coverage, but then want to criticize the player. Even if Clowney is one dimensional, what dimension does Taylor bring that isn't covered by McKnight? I think they go with the more polished WR option, at least until Holmes returns. IMO that's Clowney. If Coles were kept I'd be more inclined to expect Clowney to be out for a ST'er.

McKnight can't hold onto the ball, Larry Taylor can Dom-do you trust him getting a punt with 2 minutes left and us needing a scoring drive? I absolutely trust Taylor making the play and holding on to the rock. Yea I haven't seen Clowney in on any tackles as a gunner 2-7. We ALWAYS saw Wallace making hits. Granted he DID recover that muffed punt or KO whatever it was but still no hits. Taylor is also an option in that stupid reverse that Schotty always likes to run. I see him making the team over Clowney-but then again, I could be wrong-what do i friggin know...

[#27TheDominator]

Clemens never lived up to the hype, so a lot of it is on him, obviously - but yeah, I definitely think the Jets are screwing him. They placed the low tender on him to begin with, he signed it rather than show his displeasure by sitting out OTA's, etc., and maybe coercing a trade or release then. The Jets reward that by demanding that he take a $500K pay cut in an uncapped year? He could definitely be a #2 QB somewhere else. You really don't have to look any further than the Giants as a possible destination. He's too nice a guy, who says he wants to play here. I don't get it. He's been jerked around so much since he was drafted with Favre, then Sanchez, and now Brunell, I can't believe he's really happy here.

With Clowney, it seems the coaches talk about him a lot, and almost all of it is how he's not playing up to his potential. It's the opposite of the way they talk about Woodhead, for example, who they can't seem to get enough of. I think these guys are both fighting for those same last couple ST-based roster spots, and that Clowney's on the outside looking in. With his speed, he should be a return man - but he's not. He's not getting downfield as a gunner. What is he exactly?

His couple of decent games came when Cotch was hurt and they'd just traded for Braylon - coming against Miami and Oakland. Other than that, he's really done nothing on offense. Cotch came back, and he was back to being invisible. Now the Jets have added Holmes, and have LT, McKnight, and -yes- Woodhead, who can all catch the ball. I just don't see a spot for him.

I will basically just agree to disagree with most of this. It's nice that Woodhead tries hard, but you can't coach speed. I actually can see Woodhead getting the spot, but IMO it's more Woodhead vs. Taylor. I also can see Clowney sticking and getting the axe when Holmes returns or re-signing Coles after week 1 and cutting him.

I agree the Jets have tons of options to catch the ball, but Keller, McKnight and LT are not WR and in reality neither is Smith. Neither are Taylor, Cumberland or Woodhead for that matter. I can't see starting the season with only 2 true WR. Besides, I think he's better on coverage teams than Woodhead or Taylor and the team already has return men. In fact, Clowney wsan't even bad on kick returns.

[JiFtheOracle]

Clemens never lived up to the hype, so a lot of it is on him, obviously - but yeah, I definitely think the Jets are screwing him. They placed the low tender on him to begin with, he signed it rather than show his displeasure by sitting out OTA's, etc., and maybe coercing a trade or release then. The Jets reward that by demanding that he take a $500K pay cut in an uncapped year? He could definitely be a #2 QB somewhere else. You really don't have to look any further than the Giants as a possible destination. He's too nice a guy, who says he wants to play here. I don't get it. He's been jerked around so much since he was drafted with Favre, then Sanchez, and now Brunell, I can't believe he's really happy here.

Its amazing you are a fan of such a mean vicious team who treats all their players like dogsh*t.

[jetsman1]

I will basically just agree to disagree with most of this. It's nice that Woodhead tries hard, but you can't coach speed. I actually can see Woodhead getting the spot, but IMO it's more Woodhead vs. Taylor. I also can see Clowney sticking and getting the axe when Holmes returns or re-signing Coles after week 1 and cutting him. I

I agree the Jets have tons of options to catch the ball, but Keller, McKnight and LT are not WR and in reality neither is Smith. Neither are Taylor, Cumberland or Woodhead for that matter. I can't see starting the season with only 2 true WR. Besides, I think he's better on coverage teams than Woodhead or Taylor and the team already has return men. In fact, Clowney wsan't even bad on kick returns.,??

Woodhead ran the fastest time of all RB at the combine with a 4.38 forty. He is very fast too,as fast as Clowney.

[#27TheDominator]

Woodhead ran the fastest time of all RB at the combine with a 4.38 forty. He is very fast too,as fast as Clowney.

Woodhead wasn't invited to the combine. Those teeny school guys rarely are, that was his pro day. Pro day times are notoriously uneven and often faster, but I don't know the exact circumstances of his time. He has also had a severe knee injury and surgery since then. Still a fast guy, but obviously not Ted Ginn fast. FWIW, Clowney ran a 4.37 at the combine.

[SoFlaJets]

Woodhead ran the fastest time of all RB at the combine with a 4.38 forty. He is very fast too,as fast as Clowney.

and Woodhead keeps getting better as a football player while Clowney seems to be stuck in a state of stasis, waiting for the inevitable hammer to fall

[73andMe]

Woodhead gets my vote!

[jetsman1]

Woodhead wasn't invited to the combine. Those teeny school guys rarely are, that was his pro day. Pro day times are notoriously uneven and often faster, but I don't know the exact circumstances of his time. He has also had a severe knee injury and surgery since then. Still a fast guy, but obviously not Ted Ginn fast. FWIW, Clowney ran a 4.37 at the combine.

4.37-4.38......if they were in a foot race you wouldn't see that difference with the naked eye.My original point is still valid.Knee surgery now a days doesn't affect straight line speed.Not invasive at all.I would say after seeing Welker and other athletes come back from similar injuries that Woodhead is just as fast as he was before.

He is also a better football player than Clowney.........

[#27TheDominator]

4.37-4.38......if they were in a foot race you wouldn't see that difference with the naked eye.My original point is still valid.Knee surgery now a days doesn't affect straight line speed.Not invasive at all.I would say after seeing Welker and other athletes come back from similar injuries that Woodhead is just as fast as he was before.

He is also a better football player than Clowney.........

Maybe, maybe not. A 4.37 at pro day isn't necessarily the same as a 4.37 at the combine. I like Woodhead, but my question is this: IF he's just "better" then why haven't they played him as the gunner? They obviously love the kid, but I haven't seen them even try him there and they let him try everything. IMO Clowney is the third best WR on the team as of week 1 and I think they need more than 3 WR. I think there is a very good chance they are both kept, but I doubt they keep Taylor and Woodhead.

[Bruce Banner]

Woodhead didn't go the combine, he was allowed to attend Nebraska's pro day and was timed there. Just from the top of my head I think pro day 40 numbers are at least .3 faster than combine numbers. Maybe closer to .5.

I just wish they would give Woodhead enough carries to find out once and for all if he can play.

[SoFlaJets]

Maybe, maybe not. A 4.37 at pro day isn't necessarily the same as a 4.37 at the combine. I like Woodhead, but my question is this: IF he's just "better" then why haven't they played him as the gunner? They obviously love the kid, but I haven't seen them even try him there and they let him try everything. IMO Clowney is the third best WR on the team as of week 1 and I think they need more than 3 WR. I think there is a very good chance they are both kept, but I doubt they keep Taylor and Woodhead.

the other day at Rex's last PC Dom he talked about his conversation with Westy saying "maybe they should try him there" I'm not sure because he didn't specify which position "there" was but it could very well mean gunner-watch tonight

[#27TheDominator]

the other day at Rex's last PC Dom he talked about his conversation with Westy saying "maybe they should try him there" I'm not sure because he didn't specify which position "there" was but it could very well mean gunner-watch tonight

We'll see. It's all speculation. I think the hard knocks stuff gets blown out of proportion. Remember the "x" next to Clemens name? What did that prove? It may mean something, it might not. I find it more telling that they dumped Allison and Coles.

As for watching it, I would love to, but I have a feeling they aren't going to air it here and I'm not staying up until 3 a.m. to watch a crappy, scratchy feed on the laptop.

[SoFlaJets]

We'll see. It's all speculation. I think the hard knocks stuff gets blown out of proportion. Remember the "x" next to Clemens name? What did that prove? It may mean something, it might not. I find it more telling that they dumped Allison and Coles.

As for watching it, I would love to, but I have a feeling they aren't going to air it here and I'm not staying up until 3 a.m. to watch a crappy, scratchy feed on the laptop.

no I wasn't talking about HK 2-7. I try and check every day to see if there is a new Rex PC on the team's site-they are very informative-way better real time stuff than we're getting from HBO's stuff which is over a week old

[slats]

IMO Clowney is the third best WR on the team as of week 1 and I think they need more than 3 WR. I think there is a very good chance they are both kept, but I doubt they keep Taylor and Woodhead.

I wish I thought the Jets needed more than 3 WR's. It's not like Sanchez is really spreading it around. I get the feeling that they'll be happy to go into the year with Braylon, Cotch, and Keller, with LT and/or Woodhead or McKnight able to lineup outside as well. They can put Smith on the field, too (even though I agree he's not a real WR). If they suffer an injury to one of their main guys, I'd guess that they'd limp thru the game and then look to pick up Coles on a paycheck to paycheck basis. I really don't get the feeling they think much of Clowney as a WR. The former preseason star doesn't have a single catch this year (Woodhead has 6, Allison had 3). I think instead they're trying to get him to earn his spot on specials, and he's struggling mightily.

I always thought that he, Woodhead, Allison, and Taylor were all fighting for the same roster spot. Right now, Woodhead appears to be way out in front with his versatility.

[SoFlaJets]

New York Jets WR Santonio Holmes seeing more time vs. Eagles; David Clowney out to prove he belongs

Of the 36 Jets Rex Ryan plans to play Thursday night in the preseason finale against the Eagles, none will draw more attention than wide receiver Santonio Holmes.

"I was talking with (Eagles) Coach (Andy) Reid," Ryan said. "And I said, 'Well, you're going to have to roll coverage to him.' So expect some cover-2 over there when Tone is in the game."

While Reid's staff may hone in on the former Super Bowl MVP, who will play the better part of three quarters due to an upcoming four-game suspension, Ryan's staff will be looking at the lesser-known prospects on the field.

"There are some jobs up for grabs," Ryan said. "We'll see who takes them."

At receiver, in particular, decisions need to be made regarding David Clowney and Larry Taylor. Both bring bursts of energy, but Clowney, who can be so dangerous on go routes and straight-on sprints, has struggled over his two years to bottle those lightning moments. He seemed to be on the cusp of being cut after last week's "Hard Knocks" episode when special teams coordinator Mike Westhoff threatened to cut him right on the field.

"He's made some plays on special teams, but we want to see that consistency," Ryan said. "So far he's still a little inconsistent in special-teams play."

A burner out of Virginia Tech, Clowney has played gunner in the preseason, but Ryan and Westhoff both have implored him to avoid being broken down by single press. Ryan praised Clowney's timeliness in recovering fumbles but noted his miscues.

"You want to see that speed on the field," Ryan said.

Ryan remembered Clowney's explosiveness in the preseason finale last year. The Eagles were blitzing on every down, so Ryan told Clowney to enter the game for a "nine route." Clowney, who sat two quarters, blew past the secondary and scored a touchdown.

"Come on, let's see it," Ryan said. "That's what I'm looking for."

Taylor, meanwhile, has become a Westhoff favorite as the undersized return man with the long odds of making the team. He, too, had his guffaws in games, but said he would not approach the finale any differently despite a roster spot being on the line.

"When I played in Canada, this is where I wanted to be," Taylor said. "It's football to me when I am on the field."

As for whether the receivers will have a chance to make a statement with their hands, Ryan sounded as though blocking will be their main role from scrimmage.

"We're gonna run the ball," Ryan said. "A bunch."

[#27TheDominator]

I wish I thought the Jets needed more than 3 WR's. It's not like Sanchez is really spreading it around. I get the feeling that they'll be happy to go into the year with Braylon, Cotch, and Keller, with LT and/or Woodhead or McKnight able to lineup outside as well. They can put Smith on the field, too (even though I agree he's not a real WR). If they suffer an injury to one of their main guys, I'd guess that they'd limp thru the game and then look to pick up Coles on a paycheck to paycheck basis. I really don't get the feeling they think much of Clowney as a WR. The former preseason star doesn't have a single catch this year (Woodhead has 6, Allison had 3). I think instead they're trying to get him to earn his spot on specials, and he's struggling mightily.

I always thought that he, Woodhead, Allison, and Taylor were all fighting for the same roster spot. Right now, Woodhead appears to be way out in front with his versatility.

This is why I wish we still had rep comments. I would have just positive repp'ed you and said I wish they needed more WR too. If they cut Clowney IMO they'll only have two. I agree that they probably won't be able to use more than two, but I don't agree they will cut Clowney, so no rep for you!

[Jetsfan80]

This is why I wish we still had rep comments. I would have just positive repp'ed you and said I wish they needed more WR too. If they cut Clowney IMO they'll only have two. I agree that they probably won't be able to use more than two, but I don't agree they will cut Clowney, so no rep for you!

Dustin Keller is our # 3 WR until Holmes comes available, not Clowney.

[#27TheDominator]

Dustin Keller is our # 3 WR until Holmes comes available, not Clowney.

Eh. That's possible, but it's your opinion. It's certainly not a fact. We'll see what they do. I think they'll keep Clowney.

[Matt39]

Too bad that Keller pick wasn't Jermichael Finley...oh well.