If you had $25,000 to invest....

[villain_the_foe]

Well, then why did the Department of Energy loan Nissan $1.6B under the same program that loans were made to Ford? The simple answer is that it's not a bailout, but an incentive to build alternatively powered vehicles in the US. Google and youtube could have given you the answer if you'd only searched beyond the first article or even read the whole thing.

I said "bailout"...and obviously you cant fathom why. Taking out an international loan to "expand" production (what nissan did) would be considered a loan. Accepting money to slash debt and to up credit rating (because lets be honest, Ford is too big to fail) is considered a bailout.

Whatever you say about this doesnt change the fact that in order for them to continue with "operations" they needed money from govt to pay off debt. If you can show me that Nissan did such a thing I'll sit here and tell you that it was a BAILOUT!

If you want to debate the value of the government lending that money it's a different story, but that does not make it a bailout.

When the only way for you to pay your debt and continue operations is to take out numerous loans from govt's to eliminate those debts thats a bailout. Just because Ford didnt take it at the same time as the other companies doesnt make it any different. Just because its called a loan doesnt chance the fact that the bailouts were "loans" as well. lol. You're wrong, you dont have to admit it though. I know what a bailout is. And for the record, the article that I presented did say that Ford didnt take out a bailout at the time that the other domestic car companies did. Unfortunately they took one out down the road...because they couldnt pay their debt. I would say that this isnt hard, but for a person that's trying to "maintain" instead of just seeing that it is a bailout cant cop to the fact that it is what it is.

Keep waiting because I'm not really interested. I happen to follow the auto industry and paid attention during the bailouts. I'm not as interested in the economy and don't plan to study up for an internet debate.

Well, anytime you're ready to learn about and jump into Bitonti and I convo about Gold vs Cash you have your starting point there.

[villain_the_foe]

Bitonti is a bright guy, but unfortunately for him he's an ideologue. Any rational person reading your posts, would walk away saying "yeah, that guy makes sense."

But for Bitonti, if it doesn't validate his (wrong) ideology, then it can't be true.

I remember Sperm Edwards had a picture of Herm Edwards, and the caption read "60 seconds in a minute... that can't be right."

It's the same thing with Bitonti.

I believe so as well, thats why I've continued my convo with him. He is bright, and I can see why he says what he says...its because we've all been taught that way, so he's only reiterating what he knows. The problem is, what we've been taught is the problem. He doesnt see that the structure that he defends is the same structure that allowed Enron, World Com, AIG, Lehman Bros etc. to do the damage that they did.

I asked him about the lack of M3 reports since 2006, however, he hasnt touched the subject. Everything that I ask Bit which IMO would spark the curiousity for something "atleast" being a bit fishy he completely leaves alone.

Cant do anything with him! lol.

[bitonti]

ITS A RECESSION BITONTI! You cannot have your domestic companies leaving for foreign lands, have nothing to manufacture and expect a recovery.

saying things big doesn't change their dictionary definitions.

this thread got awful political all of a sudden

which is a shame

[villain_the_foe]

saying things big doesn't change their dictionary definitions.

this thread got awful political all of a sudden

which is a shame

How about this then. QE1 did not work and create recovery on a permanent basis and it impaired the economy. All the money and credit created by the Fed ended up in the financial world with little ending up in the real economy. That is why unemployment has again risen to 22% (hence the jobless recovery by "definition"). Again, policies have created continual inflation and distorted patterns throughout society (Getting an M3 report would clarify what im telling you...but they blocked the truth from reaching the public). You cannot indefinitely aid a flawed policy, even though that policy allowed you to live far beyond your means. In otherwords, It was good while it lasted, but the game is in the process of coming to a close. You cannot inflate a world wide currency and expect countries to sit there and take it when they dont have to. All of those dollars are going to come back home and what you thought was a deflated situation could end up not just being an inflated situation, but an hyperinflated situation.

No need for saying things big. I just tried to find every way to show you that what you're hoping for isnt what we need.

[villain_the_foe]

**** You

You already did, in fact you ****ed everybody in this country when you voted for that imbecile.

The two of you need to cool it if we expect this thread to stay open. I know max seen this thread and he's obviously let it go. This language is going to have him or another mod close it.

we're able to speak (agree or disagree) with a topic that interest us here at Jetnation that is borderline political. Please dont make this thread go to the sh*t guys and make the mods close it. Lighten up please.

Most presidents were imbecilles....no difference this time around lol.

Seriously though, lets not take this too personal guys. At the end of the day its all just opinion.

[Greenranger]

The two of you need to cool it if we expect this thread to stay open. I know max seen this thread and he's obviously let it go. This language is going to have him or another mod close it.

we're able to speak (agree or disagree) with a topic that interest us here at Jetnation that is borderline political. Please dont make this thread go to the sh*t guys and make the mods close it. Lighten up please.

Most presidents were imbecilles....no difference this time around lol.

Seriously though, lets not take this too personal guys. At the end of the day its all just opinion.

I didn't start anything with him. He came in here and started something, then didn't have the balls to answer back when I challenged him. I don't think he even read the entire thread because I obviously didn't vote for Obama and I haven't said anything positive about Bush nor am I a fan of his, I'm not sure who he thinks I voted for. (I couldn't vote in 04). But now I see why we aren't allowed to talk politics because people like that can't stay civil.

[villain_the_foe]

I didn't start anything with him. He came in here and started something, then didn't have the balls to answer back when I challenged him. I don't think he even read the entire thread because I obviously didn't vote for Obama and I haven't said anything positive about Bush nor am I a fan of his, I'm not sure who he thinks I voted for. (I couldn't vote in 04). But now I see why we aren't allowed to talk politics because people like that can't stay civil.

I hear you. So need to speak about politics. Lets continue our discussion about investments.

[THE ILK]

I hear you. So need to speak about politics. Lets continue our discussion about investments.

How would I be doing if I put $5K down on every Nick Folk kick so far?

[villain_the_foe]

How would I be doing if I put $5K down on every Nick Folk kick so far?

Given that many "put options" was for him to fail you just quadrupled your investment!

Not bad playa

[THE ILK]

Given that many "put options" was for him to fail you just quadrupled your investment!

Not bad playa

So I hit the strike price several times then.

[villain_the_foe]

So I hit the strike price several times then.

Yup. you Rex and Westoff were right on the money. I cant front. My money was too scared. I actually had mine on LT.

Pretty good return myself lol.

[THE ILK]

Yup. you Rex and Westoff were right on the money. I cant front. My money was too scared. I actually had mine on LT.

Pretty good return myself lol.

It's not how you run the race, it's how you finish that counts.

[bitonti]

All the money and credit created by the Fed ended up in the financial world with little ending up in the real economy.

the financial world is the real economy. we all live in the real economy. I can't buy groceries with gold.

[Greenranger]

the financial world is the real economy. we all live in the real economy. I can't buy groceries with gold.

If you gave me an ounce of gold I would let you have five minutes alone in any Grocery store, no questions asked.

[THE ILK]

the financial world is the real economy. we all live in the real economy. I can't buy groceries with gold.

I'll bet you $25,000, you can.

[JetsFanInDenver]

I'm not arguing with any of that. The Republicans had a shot do what they're preaching now from 01-07, and they screwed it up. But I have to hope that they've learned their lesson from the beat down in 06 and 08.

Thats the thing. Living on hope is not a bad thing. But lot of people had hoped for lot of change couple of years ago.

So by 2012 if you find out the Republicans didn't fulfill promises what will you do then ? Vote for the other party ?

[villain_the_foe]

the financial world is the real economy. we all live in the real economy. I can't buy groceries with gold.

Your conditioning is very embedded. There's no getting through to you. You either continue to ignore the importants of M3 or you just dont know what it is and thats why you're staying away from it. No matter the situation, you're dead wrong.

First off, gold is money, paper "was" a respresentation of money when it was backed by gold/silver, now its only money based on "perception". And your perception is the perfect playground for QE 2/3/4 and 5. You dont know what money is my friend. And as for buying groceries with gold, you're wrong, Not only are you able to purchase products with silver/gold eagles (denomination on the coin) but you can also use the worth of the metal amount in the coin. What you cant buy groceries with is your google stock that you touted when gold when down in price, though thats called consolidation in the Gold market. Its not like gold is at $300 dollars again.

If you are not hedging yourself for the obvious situation occuring you're just fooling yourself. Remember this conversation, I think I'll be telling you sooner than later "I told you so".

But for now, I agree to disagree.

[JetsFanInDenver]

How long you gonna keep me waiting?

That's from page 9, we're on 16 now.

Laughable!

1. I was letting you off the hook by not responding. You were gasping in that discussion.

2. I did not know you still had that on your mind and were waiting. It was like 10 days ago. That's centuries in interwebz definiton.

3. It does not matter now. Because i can see your irrational partisan cheerleading bias. I never carry poms poms.

4. There are some good posters who have contributed significantly to this thread. I want them to continue doing so and not get this thread locked.

[Greenranger]

Thats the thing. Living on hope is not a bad thing. But lot of people had hoped for lot of change couple of years ago.

So by 2012 if you find out the Republicans didn't fulfill promises what will you do then ? Vote for the other party ?

Then comes the Libertarian Party, because if the Republicans screw this up, thats it, I don't think their getting another shot, I know they won't from me.

[villain_the_foe]

I'll bet you $25,000, you can.

Because Bitonti knows nothing about Gold Silver he doesnt understand that you can go to the store and buy things with gold silver. This is actually the 2nd or 3rd time he said something like this. He's never had real money before in his life. I think im going to make a video of me buying something at the store with a silver eagle. lol.

[JetsFanInDenver]

Then comes the Libertarian Party, because if the Republicans screw this up, thats it, I don't think their getting another shot, I know they won't from me.

Makes sense in where you are coming from.

I still think the path to resolving the breakdowns in the system is making more people aware of the root causes of the issue.

and why things do not change. There is too much hyperbole in the opinionated media (and sometimes on this thread ) and no rational discussion.

Otherwise things never change. I just saw John McCain saying the system was broken all the way from 1989 on John Stewart's show!

[Greenranger]

Makes sense in where you are coming from.

I still think the path to resolving the breakdowns in the system is making more people aware of the root causes of the issue.

and why things do not change. There is too much hyperbole in the opinionated media (and sometimes on this thread ) and no rational discussion.

Otherwise things never change. I just saw John McCain saying the system was broken all the way from 1989 on John Stewart's show!

Thats what I hoped the Tea Party would be able to do and bring in more political newcomers who would be less corrupt than the established career politicians. But I am becoming a little concerned that the Republican Political class may be hijacking it. And John McCain is a big part of why the system was and is broken in the first place.

[JetsFanInDenver]

Thats what I hoped the Tea Party would be able to do and bring in more political newcomers who would be less corrupt than the established career politicians. But I am becoming a little concerned that the Republican Political class may be hijacking it. And John McCain is a big part of why the system was and is broken in the first place.

If the Tea Party was founded in 2002 and had the same platform they currently have of less spending and less taxation i would be rooting for them hook line and sinker. But the fact we had all these abuses and no one raised their voices all this time makes me doubt their credibility.

[THE ILK]

1. I was letting you off the hook by not responding. You were gasping in that discussion.

2. I did not know you still had that on your mind and were waiting. It was like 10 days ago. That's centuries in interwebz definiton.

3. It does not matter now. Because i can see your irrational partisan cheerleading bias. I never carry poms poms.

4. There are some good posters who have contributed significantly to this thread. I want them to continue doing so and not get this thread locked.

Sure, and conveniently ignore me when I say I did not support such and such from either side, whatever helps you sleep at night.

[villain_the_foe]

Makes sense in where you are coming from.

I still think the path to resolving the breakdowns in the system is making more people aware of the root causes of the issue.

and why things do not change. There is too much hyperbole in the opinionated media (and sometimes on this thread ) and no rational discussion.

Otherwise things never change. I just saw John McCain saying the system was broken all the way from 1989 on John Stewart's show!

Just my opinion...the system is the problem. I know thats so cliche but I think that the system is doing exactly what its designed to do.

Look at the laws passed the past 10 years. Most would say its to protect us from "boogie men" but atleast to me, it seems like these laws coincide perfectly with the slow crumble of the economy that we see today in order to suppress the unrest that is to come.

This is why im so concerned about the dollar. Its one thing to be in massive debt and for you to turn your economic views around with better leadership etc. Its another thing to be in this type of debt, and have an up-and-coming super power (china) and a private company (the fed) own ALL your debt. Whats worse is that the printing press (the debt machine) is being used by the Fed to Monetize existing debts. And whats worse is that the Fed controls the gold that we allegedly have. Now dont get me started, but I dont think that gold is here, when's the last time Fort Knox had a full audit of its reserves?

Our method is ridiculous and extremely dangerous, and I dont see a chance unless we control our debt/money/assets which I doubt China and the Fed would give up so kindly.

As Mayar Rothschild stated: "Give me control of a nation's money supply, and I care not who makes its laws". I think we're seeing the type of control you can have over a nation and its 300 million if you ask me. This is why I see Silver and Gold as the best asset, even over land at the moment. You cant trust any land in this country that has been sold with a mortgage the past 15 years.

Your thoughts?

[JetsFanInDenver]

Sure, and conveniently ignore me when I say I did not support such and such from either side, whatever helps you sleep at night.

Ok. Point noted.

And i will go to sleep if i finish the work i dialed in to perform in the first place.

Damn this site is addictive!

[THE ILK]

Ok. Point noted.

And i will go to sleep if i finish the work i dialed in to perform in the first place.

Damn this site is addictive!

I can get the thread locked if you'd like.

[Greenranger]

If the Tea Party was founded in 2002 and had the same platform they currently have of less spending and less taxation i would be rooting for them hook line and sinker. But the fact we had all these abuses and no one raised their voices all this time makes me doubt their credibility.

I'm trying to look on the brighter side with all of this, but I understand what your saying, why wait until now to protest, why not five years ago? I don't doubt that the average people there are pissed, I've been to a few of them and the average middle-class people there are legitimately mad from the reun-away spending of both the Bush and Obama administrations, but the leadership could be party backed in some, all, or, none of these groups. I don't think all of them would GOP backed though because some of these groups are endorsing Democrats against Republicans, like in the Idaho Congressional election.

[Greenranger]

Just my opinion...the system is the problem. I know thats so cliche but I think that the system is doing exactly what its designed to do.

Look at the laws passed the past 10 years. Most would say its to protect us from "boogie men" but atleast to me, it seems like these laws coincide perfectly with the slow crumble of the economy that we see today in order to suppress the unrest that is to come.

This is why im so concerned about the dollar. Its one thing to be in massive debt and for you to turn your economic views around with better leadership etc. Its another thing to be in this type of debt, and have an up-and-coming super power (china) and a private company (the fed) own ALL your debt. Whats worse is that the printing press (the debt machine) is being used by the Fed to Monetize existing debts. And whats worse is that the Fed controls the gold that we allegedly have. Now dont get me started, but I dont think that gold is here, when's the last time Fort Knox had a full audit of its reserves?

Our method is ridiculous and extremely dangerous, and I dont see a chance unless we control our debt/money/assets which I doubt China and the Fed would give up so kindly.

As Mayar Rothschild stated: "Give me control of a nation's money supply, and I care not who makes its laws". I think we're seeing the type of control you can have over a nation and its 300 million if you ask me. This is why I see Silver and Gold as the best asset, even over land at the moment. You cant trust any land in this country that has been sold with a mortgage the past 15 years.

Your thoughts?

My thoughts on Silver and Gold?

[JetsFanInDenver]

Just my opinion...the system is the problem. I know thats so cliche but I think that the system is doing exactly what its designed to do.

Look at the laws passed the past 10 years. Most would say its to protect us from "boogie men" but atleast to me, it seems like these laws coincide perfectly with the slow crumble of the economy that we see today in order to suppress the unrest that is to come.

This is why im so concerned about the dollar. Its one thing to be in massive debt and for you to turn your economic views around with better leadership etc. Its another thing to be in this type of debt, and have an up-and-coming super power (china) and a private company (the fed) own ALL your debt. Whats worse is that the printing press (the debt machine) is being used by the Fed to Monetize existing debts. And whats worse is that the Fed controls the gold that we allegedly have. Now dont get me started, but I dont think that gold is here, when's the last time Fort Knox had a full audit of its reserves?

Our method is ridiculous and extremely dangerous, and I dont see a chance unless we control our debt/money/assets which I doubt China and the Fed would give up so kindly.

As Mayar Rothschild stated: "Give me control of a nation's money supply, and I care not who makes its laws". I think we're seeing the type of control you can have over a nation and its 300 million if you ask me. This is why I see Silver and Gold as the best asset, even over land at the moment. You cant trust any land in this country that has been sold with a mortgage the past 15 years.

Your thoughts?

I don't think the system ever accounted for massive amounts of election finance. I just heard on the TV playing the background that 3 billion will be spent this coming election.

The problem is laws are written in the interest of protecting contributors not the people. Over the years under diff adminstrations there has been a systematic dismantling of the framework that protected our nation from such situation. The Glass Steagal Act has been buried. And then things have gone beyond that.

I final nail in the coffin was the Bankruptcy and Consumer Protection Act of 2005. It did get a few deadbeats from taking advantage of the system. But it shifted the onus of a loan from the lender to the lendee. And within a month we had the liar loans (Stated Income Loans) spring up magically where you did not have to provide any proof of you ability to pay the loan. Because now the onus was on you the person taking the loan and you could not wiggle out of it.

I will leave it here for now and get back to work.

[JetsFanInDenver]

I can get the thread locked if you'd like.

[JetsFanInDenver]

I'm trying to look on the brighter side with all of this, but I understand what your saying, why wait until now to protest, why not five years ago? I don't doubt that the average people there are pissed, I've been to a few of them and the average middle-class people there are legitimately mad from the reun-away spending of both the Bush and Obama administrations, but the leadership could be party backed in some, all, or, none of these groups. I don't think all of them would GOP backed though because some of these groups are endorsing Democrats against Republicans, like in the Idaho Congressional election.

The elections as i see it hinges on the independent vote. Which give or take is around 10% nationally.

It would be so much better if people voted in their own personal interests and not just the party they are registered for.

[Greenranger]

The elections as i see it hinges on the independent vote. Which give or take is around 10% nationally.

It would be so much better if people voted in their own personal interests and not just the party they are registered for.

The elections usually do come down to the Independents. Look at most Elections, who ever wins the Independents, wins the race. Thats why so much money is spent by both parties on trying to buy their votes. The last two years the Independent vote went overwhelmingly Democratic, and the Democrats won almost everything, this year they are appearing to go overwhelmingly Republican, with GOP pickups being projected anywhere from high 50's to, in some reports, near 90.

[#27TheDominator]

I said "bailout"...and obviously you cant fathom why. Taking out an international loan to "expand" production (what nissan did) would be considered a loan. Accepting money to slash debt and to up credit rating (because lets be honest, Ford is too big to fail) is considered a bailout.

Whatever you say about this doesnt change the fact that in order for them to continue with "operations" they needed money from govt to pay off debt. If you can show me that Nissan did such a thing I'll sit here and tell you that it was a BAILOUT!

When the only way for you to pay your debt and continue operations is to take out numerous loans from govt's to eliminate those debts thats a bailout. Just because Ford didnt take it at the same time as the other companies doesnt make it any different. Just because its called a loan doesnt chance the fact that the bailouts were "loans" as well. lol. You're wrong, you dont have to admit it though. I know what a bailout is. And for the record, the article that I presented did say that Ford didnt take out a bailout at the time that the other domestic car companies did. Unfortunately they took one out down the road...because they couldnt pay their debt. I would say that this isnt hard, but for a person that's trying to "maintain" instead of just seeing that it is a bailout cant cop to the fact that it is what it is.

Well, anytime you're ready to learn about and jump into Bitonti and I convo about Gold vs Cash you have your starting point there.

FORD NEVER TOOK ANY MONEY FROM THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT FOR THOSE PURPOSES. THE LOANS THAT THEY TOOK FROM THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT WERE FROM THE SAME PROGRAM THAT NISSAN USED.

The bailouts were "loans". Ford didn't take any money from those "loans". The billions that you state Ford got from the federal government were from the same program that Nissan got their billions from. If the U.S. government didn't bail out Nissan, they didn't bail out Ford. As I stated, there was some chicanery with loan guarantees that Ford used to secure better interest rates, but they never took any money from the government and that is why they are still saddled with debt while the other two are not. They didn't need any money to continue operations, they used it to continue posting big profits. Just like Nissan!

If you can't understand the articles you google, don't blame me, but I'm not going to take your word on investment when you continually cite articles that state the opposite of what you claim. I appreciate that you like to research things and make up your own mind, but the fact that you think you know EVERYTHING better than the world at large and can never admit your wrong does not bode well for your quest for the truth.

[Dude Love]

the financial world is the real economy. we all live in the real economy. I can't buy groceries with gold.

Pretty soon a dozen eggs, a gallon of milk and a loaf of bread will = an ounce of gold.