probowl

[Bleedin Green]

I think that's one reason why Pats fans get frustrated with the Manning argument. Manning backers always throw out unprovable "woulda, coulda, shoulda" scenarios. Statements like "if Manning had Brady's defense, he probably would've won 8 championships"

The problem with these lines of thinking is that it diminishes the actual achievement. You're essentially giving a guy credit for achieving things that he's never achieved. That argument also conveniently insulates Manning from ever being surpassed by Brady in their minds. No matter what Brady achieves, there's a built in excuse that Manning "coulda, woulda, shoulda" done it better. Brady could win another five Super Bowls and set all kinds of passing records in the process and that same flawed argument can be used over and over again. I find it interesting how this mindset relates to the Colts not pursuing perfection last season. "If we go 17-2 and everybody knows our two losses weren't real losses they'll know we "COULD'VE" gone 19-0 if we wanted to. Personally I found it cowardly and an affront to everything sports and competition should stand for. But so is the "woulda, coulda, shoulda" mentality and that's the problem with the arguments supporting Manning.

I believe in giving players credit for what they actually accomplish and achieve. And on that front, Brady > Manning and the gap is only going to get wider as their careers come to a close.

I could certainly understand the frustration, but I also don't know what you people expect to get out of Jets fans. As if we should just bow down and praise your QB, particularly when the vast majority of you are here with the sole purpose of sh*tting all over our team on a minute by minute basis. That said, does it even really matter that much? You know you've got a great QB, why do you care if people think he's the best or second best in the league?

Also, to play devil's advocate, if you want to talk about "woulda, coulda, shoulda", the fact is that when the Patriots were known as having a top defense and an average offense, their team won 3 Super Bowls. Since the Patriots have had a top offense and an average (or worse) defense, they've won none. That would seem to suggest that it's about more than just one guy, and the players around him matter too, wouldn't it? Keep in mind, Peyton Manning is one of the guys who's one a Super Bowl since the last time Brady has.

The funny thing is, I've had this conversation a few times with people in the past. If you ask me, this new era Patriots looks more like those early 2000 Colts than anything. Wracking up big points in the regular season, Brady throwing the ball all over the field and putting up huge numbers and garnering MVP honors, and then year after year getting the taste slapped out of their mouth in the playoffs by some top notch defense.

[Bleedin Green]

Thank you for being honest and agenda free.

So people can't have a difference of an opinion without one being dishonest and having an agenda? You've got to be kidding me. Hate to break it to you, but just because someone disagrees with you doesn't make them wrong.

[JustInFudge]

And of course then I need to respond in kind with the Trent Dilfer > Dan Marino comment. And then we're back where we started.

I dont see how you could use that example in this situation. Its not like we are comparing a sh*tty QB to an all time great. We are comparing two HOF players.

If the Jets could have either for their play off run, you'd take Manning?

[Klecko73isGod]

I dont see how you could use that example in this situation. Its not like we are comparing a sh*tty QB to an all time great. We are comparing two HOF players.

If the Jets could have either for their play off run, you'd take Manning?

Yes.

[JustInFudge]

Yes.

I didnt ask you douchey. You'd take Sanchez over Brady just cause.

[Klecko73isGod]

I didnt ask you douchey. You'd take Sanchez over Brady just cause.

No, I'd take Sanchez over Brady because he is nine years younger.

[JustInFudge]

No, I'd take Sanchez over Brady because he is nine years younger.

So are you now claiming you wouldnt trade the 2 right this second?

[ZachEY]

I dont see how you could use that example in this situation. Its not like we are comparing a sh*tty QB to an all time great. We are comparing two HOF players.

If the Jets could have either for their play off run, you'd take Manning?

I would, yes.

And, I make that example because I was given a situation where context needed to be removed. Football is a game played with 53 men on the roster. You cannot remove context when comparing individual players.

That's why these arguments continue. Otherwise, Peyton also needs to be put below Big Ben right now, and Brady vs. Ben is the more pressing discussion.

[ZachEY]

No, I'd take Sanchez over Brady because he is nine years younger.

That's retarded.

[PFSIKH]

I could certainly understand the frustration, but I also don't know what you people expect to get out of Jets fans. As if we should just bow down and praise your QB, particularly when the vast majority of you are here with the sole purpose of sh*tting all over our team on a minute by minute basis. That said, does it even really matter that much? You know you've got a great QB, why do you care if people think he's the best or second best in the league?

Also, to play devil's advocate, if you want to talk about "woulda, coulda, shoulda", the fact is that when the Patriots were known as having a top defense and an average offense, their team won 3 Super Bowls. Since the Patriots have had a top offense and an average (or worse) defense, they've won none. That would seem to suggest that it's about more than just one guy, and the players around him matter too, wouldn't it? Keep in mind, Peyton Manning is one of the guys who's one a Super Bowl since the last time Brady has.

The funny thing is, I've had this conversation a few times with people in the past. If you ask me, this new era Patriots looks more like those early 2000 Colts than anything. Wracking up big points in the regular season, Brady throwing the ball all over the field and putting up huge numbers and garnering MVP honors, and then year after year getting the taste slapped out of their mouth in the playoffs by some top notch defense.

I would point out that the Colts D had more to do with that title, but you bring up some good points.

I think the old saying about "too much credit when they win and too much blame when they lose" is true. Was Brady the sole reason they won 3 titles in 4 years? No. However, when he had to step up he did. The same can be said of manning. While I think manning is more culpable for the one title for his career, then Brady's 0 for last 4 (excluding 2008), the Colts would not have had their success if they drafted Leaf.

With that being said, I think the comparison's differ because the Colts' never changed their philosophy while the Patriots did. The Colts continued to pour money into their offense for the most part to surround a talented QB with weapons and maximize their advantage over most teams.

The Patriots' changed their offensive philosophy probably due to an aging and regressing defense. While I appreciated Moss' time in Foxboro, as you said, their offense would stagnate when a good to great D was able to take Moss out of the game and limit Welker's effectiveness.

I was happy to see Moss traded in the hopes of a more diverse offense. Unlike the past three years, this offense resembles the earlier offenses as it was not Welker, Moss or both having huge games. One week it was Gronk, or Woodhead, or Welker, or Branch or the Law Firm.

With the youngest D, a diversified offense and clearly the best QB in the game, the news of Patriots' demise might be premature. It does not mean they will win this year or any other because the AFC is deep, but they will have a say on who wins the title for the forseeable future.

[The Banned]

I have no idea who you root for in other sports so you may not be in this group. But many Patriot\Red Sox fans take both sides of this argument. With Brady they want actual accomplishments but when it comes to Jeter they hop over to the other side of the debate and minimize the importance of the accomplishments.

No rooting interest in the Jeter argument(whatever that argument is). I think of Jeter as one of those "gamer" types who relies on hustle, heart, and smarts more than raw talent. I'll take a team of "gamers" over a team of "stars" any day. The football equivalent would be players like Troy Brown and Tedy Bruschi.

I guess your point proves the hypocracy of sports fans and why most of us truly suck. We manufacture illogical/irrational arguments for or against players depending on whether we like them or not. We're capable of defending conflicting arguments depending upon our agendas. It doesn't matter where you live or who you root for....We all do the same thing to some extent, except for me of course.

[JustInFudge]

I would, yes.

And, I make that example because I was given a situation where context needed to be removed. Football is a game played with 53 men on the roster. You cannot remove context when comparing individual players.

That's why these arguments continue. Otherwise, Peyton also needs to be put below Big Ben right now, and Brady vs. Ben is the more pressing discussion.

Interesting. I obviously feel the other way because I personally think Brady is the better QB.

I think there is something to being a winner and a great player. Manning historically has always come up short, except for one year...even dating back to his college days. He never got it done on the big stage.

All the yeah butts (better talent, better D, etc) are kind of lost in the domination of Manning during regular seasons. Those didnt hinder his ability to win, up until, the big games. IMO, a true winner overcomes those road blocks and makes it happen which Manning has only done once in his entire career as a QB.

That's retarded.

Are you surprised?

[Jets Voice of Reason]

No rooting interest in the Jeter argument(whatever that argument is). I think of Jeter as one of those "gamer" types who relies on hustle, heart, and smarts more than raw talent. I'll take a team of "gamers" over a team of "stars" any day. The football equivalent would be players like Troy Brown and Tedy Bruschi.

I guess your point proves the hypocracy of sports fans and why most of us truly suck. We manufacture illogical/irrational arguments for or against players depending on whether we like them or not. We're capable of defending conflicting arguments depending upon our agendas. It doesn't matter where you live or who you root for....We all do the same thing to some extent, except for me of course.

I'd disagree with that about Jeter. Sure, he's showing his age now, but Jeter wasn't ever limited athletically in his prime. He wasn't a beast like A-rod, but you don't have to be to play shortstop.

[Garb]

I would point out that the Colts D had more to do with that title, but you bring up some good points.

I think the old saying about "too much credit when they win and too much blame when they lose" is true. Was Brady the sole reason they won 3 titles in 4 years? No. However, when he had to step up he did. The same can be said of manning. While I think manning is more culpable for the one title for his career, then Brady's 0 for last 4 (excluding 2008), the Colts would not have had their success if they drafted Leaf.

With that being said, I think the comparison's differ because the Colts' never changed their philosophy while the Patriots did. The Colts continued to pour money into their offense for the most part to surround a talented QB with weapons and maximize their advantage over most teams.

The Patriots' changed their offensive philosophy probably due to an aging and regressing defense. While I appreciated Moss' time in Foxboro, as you said, their offense would stagnate when a good to great D was able to take Moss out of the game and limit Welker's effectiveness.

I was happy to see Moss traded in the hopes of a more diverse offense. Unlike the past three years, this offense resembles the earlier offenses as it was not Welker, Moss or both having huge games. One week it was Gronk, or Woodhead, or Welker, or Branch or the Law Firm.

With the youngest D, a diversified offense and clearly the best QB in the game, the news of Patriots' demise might be premature. It does not mean they will win this year or any other because the AFC is deep, but they will have a say on who wins the title for the forseeable future.

Ah-ha! You mean the offense is better WITHOUT Randy Moss? Wow...who would have thought that? LOL!

[JustInFudge]

Ah-ha! You mean the offense is better WITHOUT Randy Moss? Wow...who would have thought that? LOL!

Out of curiosity, why couldnt that Pats run this offense with Randy?

[ZachEY]

Interesting. I obviously feel the other way because I personally think Brady is the better QB.

I think there is something to being a winner and a great player. Manning historically has always come up short, except for one year...even dating back to his college days. He never got it done on the big stage.

All the yeah butts (better talent, better D, etc) are kind of lost in the domination of Manning during regular seasons. Those didnt hinder his ability to win, up until, the big games. IMO, a true winner overcomes those road blocks and makes it happen which Manning has only done once in his entire career as a QB.

I don't actually believe in that 'winner' concept.

I apologize for not having the original article, but here's a baseball version from wikipedia on clutch hitters:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clutch_hitter#Does_clutch_hitting_exist.3F

Jeter is perhaps a prime example of the difference between perception and reality when it comes to "clutch hitting." Widely considered a "clutch player," Jeter's career BA/OBP/SLG (through the end of the 2007 season) numbers are .317/.388/.462, while his playoff numbers are in fact marginally worse at .309/.377/.469. Teammate Bernie Williams had equal or better numbers to Jeter in the time they played together but it is Jeter who is deemed 'clutch'. Jeter's home run to win Game 4 of the 2001 World Series helped earn him the nickname "Mr. November," but his offensive numbers for the series were very poor .148/.179/.259.

Now, I know it's baseball and not football, but offensive baseball is significantly more individually based than football, so I'd think that the truth is the same.

I couldn't say without doing significant research, but I would think Peyton's playoff performance dips because his opponents increase and he, when compared to Brady, has been asked to shoulder a significantly bigger load.

[T0mShane]

Derek Jeter sucks. This is my word.

[JustInFudge]

I don't actually believe in that 'winner' concept.

I apologize for not having the original article, but here's a baseball version from wikipedia on clutch hitters:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clutch_hitter#Does_clutch_hitting_exist.3F

Well, I wasnt really arguing the clutchness between the 2 players but more so the winner mentality or a champion if you will. Which I do think is very different.

However, I 100% disagree with this article on so many levels I dont even know where to begin and actually feel exhausted thinking of how much typing it would take me to point out all the flaws.

All I can do is simply say, there is definitely an innate ability to rise to the occasion when everything is on the line in clutch players. Some people dont want to be in that situation, others thrive on it. Since your article was a baseball one, I'll stick with that sport, but there is a huge difference between batting with the bases loaded in the 3rd game of the year in the 2nd inning, than there is batting with the bases loaded, bottom of the 9th in the last game of the World Series to win the game. You can run all the fun little stats you want, but the emotions that are a factor can not be calculated. And it makes me believe the dudes that came up with this theory probably never played sports beyond little league.

[DMaynard]

So people can't have a difference of an opinion without one being dishonest and having an agenda? You've got to be kidding me. Hate to break it to you, but just because someone disagrees with you doesn't make them wrong.

And I can have the opinion that when someone believes something so ridiculous as Revis not being pro bowl calibur this year, I can speculate that there may be something behind their opinion other than an honest assessment of performance.

[donboyO]

And I can have the opinion that when someone believes something so ridiculous as Revis not being pro bowl calibur this year, I can speculate that there may be something behind their opinion other than an honest assessment of performance.

Revis is not a Pro bowler this year, missed 4 games, hasnt made a big play all year, Sorry others deserved it more this year

[The Banned]

Out of curiosity, why couldnt that Pats run this offense with Randy?

Go watch the first Jets game. It really has more to do with Brady just looking for the open man than any change in system. In the first half, Brady spread the ball around to the open man and the offense moved up and down the field. Hernandez may have even had 100+ yards at halftime. In the second half, Brady saw Moss was primarily being single covered (Cromartie) and he continually tried to force him the ball, even when there were other options completely open. To his credit, Cromartie played well and forced incompletions after incompletion and the Patriots offense continually went 3 and out.

Moss had been so tremendously productive for such a long time that he demanded that throws go his way, even when he was covered. Unfortunately, his skills sets don't include very much in the agility dept. He's a long strider. He doesn't have the ability change directions quickly, stop on a dime, or generally just fight and scrap to get open.

Contrast Mosses style with Deion Branch. Branch certainly doesn't have the raw talent of Moss but he's a gamer. He'll fight and scratch to get open. He's quick, he's agile, he runs precise routes, and he's always hustling. Moss did none of those things.

It's kind of the argument between big/little receivers. Both have pro's, both have cons. Big receivers give you the ability to make plays even when the coverage is great. Like baseketball players dominating the boards, they can go over the defenders. Little receivers tend to be super quick which allows them to get open more often, even if only for a few seconds. The downside is that they have much less of a chance to make a successful play when they are blanketed.

Having said all that, I am surprised Moss has been so bad this year. I saw him in training camp and he looked incredible. But then again, so did Brandon Tate. I can't figure out what Moss is doing or not doing, whatever the case may be, that has led so such a dramatic drop in production. Has he just hit the end of the road or is it something else? I don't know.

[Maxman]

I don't actually believe in that 'winner' concept.

I apologize for not having the original article, but here's a baseball version from wikipedia on clutch hitters:

http://en.wikipedia....itting_exist.3F

Now, I know it's baseball and not football, but offensive baseball is significantly more individually based than football, so I'd think that the truth is the same.

I couldn't say without doing significant research, but I would think Peyton's playoff performance dips because his opponents increase and he, when compared to Brady, has been asked to shoulder a significantly bigger load.

Jeter's BMI in "clutch situations" is .456 when the standard dev is .383. If that doesn't end this debate nothing will. People define clutch as every at bat in the postseason. Clutch isn't getting a hit in '98 when the Yankees won every postseason game. Clutch is what happens in "Clutch" situations.

[JustInFudge]

Go watch the first Jets game. In the first half, Brady spread the ball around to the open man and the offense moved up and down the field. Hernandez may have even had 100+ yards at halftime. In the second half, Brady saw Moss was primarily being single covered (Cromartie) and he tried to continually feed him the ball, even when there were other options completely open. To his credit, Cromartie played well. He matches up very well with long striders.

Moss had been so tremendously productive for such a long time that he demanded that throws go his way, even when he was covered. Unfortunately, his skills sets don't include very much in the agility dept. He's a long strider. He doesn't have the ability change directions quickly, stop on a dime, or generally just fight and scrap to get open.

Contrast Mosses style with Deion Branch. Branch certainly doesn't have the raw talent of Moss but he's a gamer. He'll fight and scratch to get open. He's quick, he's agile, he runs precise routes, and he's always hustling. Moss did none of those things.

It's kind of the argument between big/little receivers. Both have pro's, both have cons. Big receivers give you the ability to make plays even when the coverage is great. Like baseketball players dominating the boards, they can go over the defenders. Little receivers tend to be super quick which allows them to get open more often, even if only for a few seconds. The downside is that they have much less of a chance to make a successful play when they are blanketed.

Having said all that, I am surprised Moss has been so bad this year. I saw him in training camp and he looked incredible. But then again, so did Brandon Tate. I can't figure out what Moss is doing or not doing, whatever the case may be, that has led so such a dramatic drop in production. Has he just hit the end of the road or is it something else? I don't know.

You ever give it any thought that maybe the Jets just had their number that day? Same way the the Browns did?

The offense had no problem scoring the other 2 games Moss was there with 38pts each game.

The offense you are running without Moss right now, is no different than it was with Moss. Only now, they dont have the greatest deep threat of all time. With Moss, they were spreading the ball around the exact same way they do currently. The offense isnt that much different, they just dont challenge teams vertically as much. Its like Tom Brady said, you dont lose Randy Moss and get better offensively.

Moss was let go because of what he was creating off the field. And saying the Tom Brady and BB were forcing throws his way because he's Moss kind of diminishes the insistence that they are both the greatest at their respective positions. They'd be above that and better than that if they were so good...and again, it wasnt an issue the other 2 games they played.

I see the Patriots winning the Super Bowl. However, if they do get bounced, I think it will be because they face a D who figures out how to take away all the quick intermediate passing and the lack of a big play WR will really hurt in that scenario.

[Garb]

Out of curiosity, why couldnt that Pats run this offense with Randy?

They did...then he had a post game melt-down....and then "poof" he was gone. It was so painfully obvious they were forcing the ball to him to keep him "happy." Ball distribution, the short (smart) passing game where Brady see's the field and his accuracy is killer (unlike his long ball, contrary to popular belief).... and does not have to wait for Randy to get free (which was not as frequent as it used to be).

[JustInFudge]

They did...then he had a post game melt-down....and then "poof" he was gone. It was so painfully obvious they were forcing the ball to him to keep him "happy." Ball distribution, the short (smart) passing game where Brady see's the field and his accuracy is killer (unlike his long ball, contrary to popular belief).... and does not have to wait for Randy to get free (which was not as frequent as it used to be).

See my above post. Saying that Brady was forcing throws his way really is a knock on Brady and I dont buy it. He can go through progressions quicker than anyone and he's not stupid enough to lose games forcing throws to Moss to be happy, nor is BB.

Again, the ball distribution and scoring was fine with Moss, except week 2 vs. the Jets. Moss was gone for off the field issues...clearly had nothing to do with the offense struggling to score. In fact, the offense suffered at first without Moss...until they adjusted to not having him.

The offense the Pats run today, could easily be ran with Randy Moss.

[Garb]

See my above post. Saying that Brady was forcing throws his way really is a knock on Brady and I dont buy it. He can go through progressions quicker than anyone and he's not stupid enough to lose games forcing throws to Moss to be happy, nor is BB.

Again, the ball distribution and scoring was fine with Moss, except week 2 vs. the Jets. Moss was gone for off the field issues...clearly had nothing to do with the offense struggling to score. In fact, the offense suffered at first without Moss...until they adjusted to not having him.

The offense the Pats run today, could easily be ran with Randy Moss.

....not true. The offense was predictable because the Pats obviously had their version of the "randy ratio" - 'till they said eff it....and Randy had a meltdown. Sure, they could have run it with Randy - if Randy wasn't "Randy" you know?

[JustInFudge]

....not true. The offense was predictable because the Pats obviously had their version of the "randy ratio" - 'till they said eff it....and Randy had a meltdown. Sure, they could have run it with Randy - if Randy wasn't "Randy" you know?

Damn, well I'd love to have a predictable offense averaging 38pts a game. lol.

Moss only had 5, 2, and 2, while he was in NE this season. In those games, Brady completed passes to 7-8 different receivers. Very similar to the numbers he averages today.

You want to base this theory on the Jets game...which I get. It was a frustrating day for you guys offensively. Guess what, Moss was targeted 3 times in the 2nd half...3 times. So this forcing it to Moss, "randy ratio", is another myth created by Pats fans to support some greater agenda. Moss was right, he wasnt appreciated and New Englanders didnt want to see him do good. lol

[The Banned]

Damn, well I'd love to have a predictable offense averaging 38pts a game. lol.

Moss only had 5, 2, and 2, while he was in NE this season. In those games, Brady completed passes to 7-8 different receivers. Very similar to the numbers he averages today.

You want to base this theory on the Jets game...which I get. It was a frustrating day for you guys offensively. Guess what, Moss was targeted 3 times in the 2nd half...3 times. So this forcing it to Moss, "randy ratio", is another myth created by Pats fans to support some greater agenda. Moss was right, he wasnt appreciated and New Englanders didnt want to see him do good. lol

You're numbers are wrong.

Here are the official results from the play by play at nfl.com

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2010091911/2010/REG2/patriots@jets/analyze/box-score#analyze-channels:cat-post-playbyplay

3rd Quarter:

First drive, 8th play - Interception intended for Moss.

Second drive - No passes thrown to Moss

4th Quarter:

First drive, 1st play - 2nd & 3 - Interception intended for Moss.

Second drive, 1st play - 1st & 10 - Incompletion to Moss (penalty on Cromartie)

Second drive, 6th play - 3rd & 7 - Incompletion to Moss

Third drive, 3rd play - 2nd & 10 - Incompletion to Moss

TOTALS: Moss was targeted five times in the second half with zero completions and two interceptions. It should also be noted that the Patriots only had five second half possessions with three ending in turnovers. While five targets may not seem like that many at first glance, three of them directly led to the Patriots losing possession of the football which contributed the the Patriots barely having possession of the football in the second half. Of the 30 minutes played in the second half, the Patriots had possession for just 9:58. Brady's decision to force the ball to Moss and the negative outcomes of those plays played a large factor in the offenses inability to stay on the field.

[The Banned]

You ever give it any thought that maybe the Jets just had their number that day? Same way the the Browns did?

Absolutely. In fact I'd go so far as to say that Revis' "slouch" comment probably contributed to Brady's forcing the ball to Moss. He wanted Randy to have a big game to silence the perceived disrespect coming from Revis.

The offense had no problem scoring the other 2 games Moss was there with 38pts each game.

The offense looked good against Cincy, at least in the first half but 7 of those 38 pts came from special teams. Against Miami, the defense and special teams both scored multiple TD's. The other game was Buffalo who we just seem to own.

The truth is that the other games don't matter. It became obvious to those who watch this team closely that Rex's defense matched up very well to our Moss-centered offense. Randy just wasn't winning the one-on-one battles. Cromartie completely dominated him in that first game without much, if any, help from the safeties.

The offense you are running without Moss right now, is no different than it was with Moss.

The only difference is that Brady doesn't need to think about keeping his "star" happy. Now he can just focus on finding the open guy which is what he's always been best at. Interestingly enough, this same phenomenon might also be a contributing factor in why Carson Palmer has sucked so badly this year. Having vocal receivers who demand the ball just isn't conducive to winning. It gets in the QB's head and leads to poor decisions. The fact that Palmer just had his best game of the year against a good Chargers defense w/o Batman & Robin might be more than just a coincidence.

Only now, they dont have the greatest deep threat of all time. With Moss, they were spreading the ball around the exact same way they do currently. The offense isnt that much different, they just dont challenge teams vertically as much. Its like Tom Brady said, you dont lose Randy Moss and get better offensively.

That argument might have passed immediately following the trade and was expressed by numerous talking heads on the idiot box. Two months later, the proof is in the pudding. The offense has gotten considerably better without Moss. Meanwhile Moss has done nothing for two separate teams since being shipped out of Foxboro. The guy was once arguably the greatest deep threat but that doesn't appear to be the case anymore. He just doesn't win the battle for the football anymore. Is it a lack of effort? Have his talents just hit the wall due to age? I don't know the answer to that but I do know that we're considerably better without him.

I see the Patriots winning the Super Bowl. However, if they do get bounced, I think it will be because they face a D who figures out how to take away all the quick intermediate passing and the lack of a big play WR will really hurt in that scenario.

Perhaps. I don't see a defense stopping our offense as much as us stopping ourselves. Our receiving corpses lead the league in drops (or maybe it was 2nd in the league). Against the Browns, our receivers had a ton of big drops. Our only surehanded receiver seems to be Branch. Even Welker struggles on occassion as he did last week vs Buffalo where he had five easy drops.

If we fall, I see us falling to a team with a ball control offense that keeps Brady on the sidelines. Brady, like most QB's, relies on finding his rhythm. When we got beat down in Cleveland, they dominated us with their running game and 3rd down passing. McCoy had a great game converting 3rd downs. As such, I see the Chiefs being our biggest threat. They have all the ingredients plus they're a team that tends to get overlooked and dismissed which gives them an edge. We've got a young team. I've got no doubt we'll bring our "A" game against teams like the Steelers, Ravens, Colts, or Jets but a team like KC who has been openly dismissed all year could sneak up on us. Plus they've got all those ex-Patriots which makes them even more dangerous to us. I want no part of the Chiefs. That's the only team I'm concerned with.

[BroadwayJ667]

... And s many fans wanted to call D'Brickashaw a bust after one season.

Patience guys, there is a reason there are coaches.

[JustInFudge]

You're numbers are wrong.

Here are the official results from the play by play at nfl.com

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2010091911/2010/REG2/patriots@jets/analyze/box-score#analyze-channels:cat-post-playbyplay

3rd Quarter:

First drive, 8th play - Interception intended for Moss.

Second drive - No passes thrown to Moss

4th Quarter:

First drive, 1st play - 2nd & 3 - Interception intended for Moss.

Second drive, 1st play - 1st & 10 - Incompletion to Moss (penalty on Cromartie)

Second drive, 6th play - 3rd & 7 - Incompletion to Moss

Third drive, 3rd play - 2nd & 10 - Incompletion to Moss

TOTALS: Moss was targeted five times in the second half with zero completions and two interceptions. It should also be noted that the Patriots only had five second half possessions with three ending in turnovers. While five targets may not seem like that many at first glance, three of them directly led to the Patriots losing possession of the football which contributed the the Patriots barely having possession of the football in the second half. Of the 30 minutes played in the second half, the Patriots had possession for just 9:58. Brady's decision to force the ball to Moss and the negative outcomes of those plays played a large factor in the offenses inability to stay on the field.

My mistake...5, not 3...a whole 2 more. 1 of which Cro was flagged and the other was late in the game down by 14 trying to make something happen. But either way, thanks for posting the link it actually helps my case a little more as it shows he attempted passes to 10 different receivers in the 2nd half.

Sorry, thats not forcing the ball to 1 receiver if you only targeted him 5 times and you targeted 10 other receivers that half.

[JustInFudge]

Absolutely. In fact I'd go so far as to say that Revis' "slouch" comment probably contributed to Brady's forcing the ball to Moss. He wanted Randy to have a big game to silence the perceived disrespect coming from Revis.

The offense looked good against Cincy, at least in the first half but 7 of those 38 pts came from special teams. Against Miami, the defense and special teams both scored multiple TD's. The other game was Buffalo who we just seem to own.

The truth is that the other games don't matter. It became obvious to those who watch this team closely that Rex's defense matched up very well to our Moss-centered offense. Randy just wasn't winning the one-on-one battles. Cromartie completely dominated him in that first game without much, if any, help from the safeties.

The only difference is that Brady doesn't need to think about keeping his "star" happy. Now he can just focus on finding the open guy which is what he's always been best at. Interestingly enough, this same phenomenon might also be a contributing factor in why Carson Palmer has sucked so badly this year. Having vocal receivers who demand the ball just isn't conducive to winning. It gets in the QB's head and leads to poor decisions. The fact that Palmer just had his best game of the year against a good Chargers defense w/o Batman & Robin might be more than just a coincidence.

That argument might have passed immediately following the trade and was expressed by numerous talking heads on the idiot box. Two months later, the proof is in the pudding. The offense has gotten considerably better without Moss. Meanwhile Moss has done nothing for two separate teams since being shipped out of Foxboro. The guy was once arguably the greatest deep threat but that doesn't appear to be the case anymore. He just doesn't win the battle for the football anymore. Is it a lack of effort? Have his talents just hit the wall due to age? I don't know the answer to that but I do know that we're considerably better without him.

Perhaps. I don't see a defense stopping our offense as much as us stopping ourselves. Our receiving corpses lead the league in drops (or maybe it was 2nd in the league). Against the Browns, our receivers had a ton of big drops. Our only surehanded receiver seems to be Branch. Even Welker struggles on occassion as he did last week vs Buffalo where he had five easy drops.

If we fall, I see us falling to a team with a ball control offense that keeps Brady on the sidelines. Brady, like most QB's, relies on finding his rhythm. When we got beat down in Cleveland, they dominated us with their running game and 3rd down passing. McCoy had a great game converting 3rd downs. As such, I see the Chiefs being our biggest threat. They have all the ingredients plus they're a team that tends to get overlooked and dismissed which gives them an edge. We've got a young team. I've got no doubt we'll bring our "A" game against teams like the Steelers, Ravens, Colts, or Jets but a team like KC who has been openly dismissed all year could sneak up on us. Plus they've got all those ex-Patriots which makes them even more dangerous to us. I want no part of the Chiefs. That's the only team I'm concerned with.

Maybe the theory he needed to keep him happy holds some weight, but the evidence doesnt really support it. And you guys were scoring just fine with him there...and siting a ST score while was there isnt that great of a case considering you've had how many ST, and defensive TD's over that time period since then?

[The Banned]

Maybe the theory he needed to keep him happy holds some weight, but the evidence doesnt really support it. And you guys were scoring just fine with him there...and siting a ST score while was there isnt that great of a case considering you've had how many ST, and defensive TD's over that time period since then?

I'm not quite sure I follow where you're coming from. "The evidence doesn't support it"??? What evidence are you looking at?

After we unloaded Moss and added Branch, it took a few weeks for the offense to get rolling but its been nearly unstoppable since then. And that's not just against cellar dwellers like Buffalo and Cincinnati. Our offense has rolled over solid defenses like Pittsburgh, Chicago, and New York. Even when we seem to play poor by our own standards, we still hang up 30+ points. We've scored 31 or more points in seven straight games!!!

What evidence are you looking at???

[TNJet]

Mcourty what a stud.

Made the Pro Bowl in his rookie season.

Yeah he was a stud when Braylon owned him for 3 tds in week 2.

[PatriotReign37]

Yeah he was a stud when Braylon owned him for 3 tds in week 2.

Fail

That was Butler