Key for 2011 Jets--Getting a Top Talent 3-4 NT

[SMC]

Well, this is a start ...

According to NFL.com's Jason La Canfora, the Ravens are expected to retain free agent DT Haloti Ngata with the franchise tag.

The Ravens can't sign him to an extension without a new CBA, so using the tag is essentially their only means of ensuring Ngata's return. It's possible that a record number of franchise and transition tags will be used throughout the NFL after the Super Bowl. GM Ozzie Newsome remains intent on signing Ngata long term. Tagging him is the first step in that direction. Jan. 31 - 5:40 pm et

[SenorGato]

I've agreed with a lot of your non-Schotty posts the past couple of weeks but this is just an ignorant summation of the cause of Jets pass-rushing woes and comparing it to that of a couple of other teams. Guys like Matthews and Ware are elite pass rushers.

Yea I know. I was due.

That said, a big DT is definitely a need this year.

[SMC]

YES, Ravens only use non-exclusive franchise tag on Ngata:

AdamSchefter: Ravens placed non-exclusive franchise tag on Haloti Ngata to tune of $12.5 mill. Michael Vick still only one to get exclusive franchise tag.

It will cost 2 1st rounders, but this means Ngata is still in play!

[bitonti]

I don't see the value in spending alot of money at a position where Rex Ryan seems to be a genius with cheap talent. Rex has done it before with Justin Bannan and Kelly Gregg.

Unless it's a miracle situation where Cameron Heyward falls I don't see why DL is such a bad need on this team. Devito and Pouha play great. Dixon, MTV and Gilbert are prospects. Yes they need a guy but compared to a Cro-less secondary, the DL is packed with talent.

[CTM]

i still don't udnerstand why NT is a huge need? We were what third in the league in run defense?

[Damaged89]

i still don't udnerstand why NT is a huge need? We were what third in the league in run defense?

I don't think anyone views it as a huge need in the "we have absolutely nothing at the position" sense. I think it's more that the line is getting older/constantly injured and there are no obvious successors. I think another factor is that it is extremely enticing to think about what the D would look like with some young, top of the line talent.

We had the the third ranked rush d with Pouha (3rd round pick who sucked before Rex showed up)- Devito (UDFA)-Ellis (old)

The thought is that the D would be monstrous with a BJ Raji type.

[CTM]

I don't think anyone views it as a huge need in the "we have absolutely nothing at the position" sense. I think it's more that the line is getting older/constantly injured and there are no obvious successors. I think another factor is that it is extremely enticing to think about what the D would look like with some young, top of the line talent.

We had the the third ranked rush d with Pouha (3rd round pick who sucked before Rex showed up)- Devito (UDFA)-Ellis (old)

The thought is that the D would be monstrous with a BJ Raji type.

the thread title is "key for 2011 jets"... and of course it would make it better, but I think a top talent 3-4 LB who can rush the passer straight up is more important.. could even argue a top tier safety would be better

[Damaged89]

the thread title is "key for 2011 jets"... and of course it would make it better, but I think a top talent 3-4 LB who can rush the passer straight up is more important.. could even argue a top tier safety would be better

Oh, I completely agree. I think Pouha should be fine for another year. Ideally Jenkins takes a paycut and we can keep him on a sort of low risk/high reward type deal. Between MTV, Dixon, and Gilbert at least one of them should develop into something useful..

A rush linebacker should be our top priority IMO.

[SMC]

the thread title is "key for 2011 jets"... and of course it would make it better, but I think a top talent 3-4 LB who can rush the passer straight up is more important.. could even argue a top tier safety would be better

The reason it is a "key" is the nature of Rex's D. The Jets' dlineman occupy blockers out of necessity rather than design. In Rex's D the dlineman are supposed to be penetrators. They are supposed to be making plays behind the LOS, either by sacks or tackles for a loss, or creating opportunities for the blitzing LBs or DBs to make a big play.

When healthy, Jenkins did that. Ngata would do the same. It transforms the D into what it is supposed to be.

And, I agree a top talent 3-4 LB is key but the only possibility is Woodley and if he's franchised, the choice should be Ngata because Ngata is the much better player.

[Jets Voice of Reason]

The reason it is a "key" is the nature of Rex's D. The Jets' dlineman occupy blockers out of necessity rather than design. In Rex's D the dlineman are supposed to be penetrators. They are supposed to be making plays behind the LOS, either by sacks or tackles for a loss, or creating opportunities for the blitzing LBs or DBs to make a big play.

When healthy, Jenkins did that. Ngata would do the same. It transforms the D into what it is supposed to be.

And, I agree a top talent 3-4 LB is key but the only possibility is Woodley and if he's franchised, the choice should be Ngata because Ngata is the much better player.

Ngata would transform the Defense, but don't really know how realistic that would be. I mean, we could use upgrades on all 3 levels, but I agree the DL in general probably needs it the worst.

[CoachTsurfing]

I'd try and upgrade both OLB's first. Pouha is a good player...Thomas is awful and Pace is a disappointment.

Thomas is a stiff, he even admitted it. Guy has one good year before his contract and most people are kissing his a$$. Not only did he quit on us he admitted it. He is easily the most hated jet player in my life. I can give Pace a little slack. Guy came back from an injury. Look at what he did the year before. We either have to find an olb or nt in the first that can contribute and find the other as a fa.

[CoachTsurfing]

Also, heard this on colin cowherd this morning and i agree. top positions on the team are qb, guy that guards his blind side, and the guy that gets to him. We invested in the qb whether he's elite or not I don't know. but the guy lead this team to two afc championship games. Brick has turned into the all pro we needed on oline. so i think we are lacking the guy that gets to the qb. so whether it's olb, nt, or de we need to get one that can sack the qb without it being a coverage sack.

[SMC]

Good points, Tsurfing.

We all agree that the Jets need to improve their ability to get to the QB. IMO, under Rex's system, getting a Ngata helps that more than an OLB. There are no OLBs available on par with Ngata talent wise.

[stoicsentry]

Admittedly, I'm no expert, but I wholeheartedly disagree that pass rush is automatically better than coverage as everyone tends to insist. Better rush aids coverage, better coverage aids rush... it works both ways.

But we have coverage. So our focus needs to be on the big guy in the middle moreso than linebacker. This defense needs guys that eat up blockers, not plain pass rushers. Bring Jenkins back at a reasonable price, if possible. Then add a draft pick. We know Pouha is serviceable at the least, so having him #3 on the chart would be sick.

If we can't add a pick there, then add Shaun Rogers.

Hell, as far as I'm concerned, I would be willing to carry FOUR there. That's how important it is. Jenkins, Rogers, Pouha/Pick. Considering we go 4-3 sometimes, there will be plenty of snaps and this way we have insurance.

[stoicsentry]

Matt covered it pretty damn well but just to reiterate....The Steelers ran all over our DL and made plays when they had to. The front 3 has been very ignored during the 5 years we've played in the 3-4, and it caught up to us in that AFC Championship game.

I thought the offense would cost us the game against the Steelers, and they're partially responsible, but our supposed best unit got smack around that fateful Sunday.

It's embarrassing the way they knocked around our defense. In just one game, they managed to surrender 17 points. No, not seven, SEVEN-teen. I know the Steelers were a championship caliber team, but that's THREE scores in just 60 minutes of football! My god is that disgraceful. Worst defense... EV4R!@

[#27TheDominator]

Also, heard this on colin cowherd this morning and i agree. top positions on the team are qb, guy that guards his blind side, and the guy that gets to him. We invested in the qb whether he's elite or not I don't know. but the guy lead this team to two afc championship games. Brick has turned into the all pro we needed on oline. so i think we are lacking the guy that gets to the qb. so whether it's olb, nt, or de we need to get one that can sack the qb without it being a coverage sack.

Those crappy OLBs and Sione Pouha led this team to two afc championship games too. Brady went down five times. They didn't lose to the Steelers because of lack of pressure. They sacked him twice and he only had 19 attempts. I looked it up. The problem was not bringing him down. The ******* guy had 11 rushing attempts. How many times was that because he shook loose?

The Jets are a very good team. They have no holes. They just have to try and improve, wherever they can. They don't have to fix this glaring weakness. I don't disagree that those three things are very important, but look at some of the teams that have those three "most important items". The Chargers and Vikings didn't even make the playoffs. It takes a full roster to win, not just a QB, LT and pass rusher.

Admittedly, I'm no expert, but I wholeheartedly disagree that pass rush is automatically better than coverage as everyone tends to insist. Better rush aids coverage, better coverage aids rush... it works both ways.

But we have coverage. So our focus needs to be on the big guy in the middle moreso than linebacker. This defense needs guys that eat up blockers, not plain pass rushers. Bring Jenkins back at a reasonable price, if possible. Then add a draft pick. We know Pouha is serviceable at the least, so having him #3 on the chart would be sick.

If we can't add a pick there, then add Shaun Rogers.

Hell, as far as I'm concerned, I would be willing to carry FOUR there. That's how important it is. Jenkins, Rogers, Pouha/Pick. Considering we go 4-3 sometimes, there will be plenty of snaps and this way we have insurance.

Four DTs? Sounds excessive. Especially when Devito is more of a DT in the 4-3. Gilbert probably is too, that's where the Bears started using him after he busted as 4-3 DE. I don't want Rogers unless they give up on Jenkins. That's a very real possibility, but I don't want both of those old bastards taking roster spots and unable to finish the season. Take a flyer on one or the other.

The real issue is that we don't necessarily have the coverage or the DEs. The team currently has to sign or replace: Ellis, Harris, Cromartie, Pool and Smith/Ihedigbo out of the guys that were in the rotation in 2010. It will be interesting to see the direction the go in because this is getting to be the chance to add guys to fit Rex rather than to just tweek things here or there.

Since Rex arrived, the only thing they did was swap Barton for Scott, Elam for Leonhard, Rhodes for Pool, demoting Lowery for Sheppard for Cromartie and Coleman for Douglas for Devito. Those are five positions, but some really inconsequential guys being move around. More importantly, 3 of the spots were in the secondary where only Revis remains. It's pretty obvious where Rex couldn't use the "Mangini guys".

[jack48]

Those crappy OLBs and Sione Pouha led this team to two afc championship games too. Brady went down five times. They didn't lose to the Steelers because of lack of pressure. They sacked him twice and he only had 19 attempts. I looked it up. The problem was not bringing him down. The ******* guy had 11 rushing attempts. How many times was that because he shook loose?

The Jets are a very good team. They have no holes. They just have to try and improve, wherever they can. They don't have to fix this glaring weakness. I don't disagree that those three things are very important, but look at some of the teams that have those three "most important items". The Chargers and Vikings didn't even make the playoffs. It takes a full roster to win, not just a QB, LT and pass rusher.

Four DTs? Sounds excessive. Especially when Devito is more of a DT in the 4-3. Gilbert probably is too, that's where the Bears started using him after he busted as 4-3 DE. I don't want Rogers unless they give up on Jenkins. That's a very real possibility, but I don't want both of those old bastards taking roster spots and unable to finish the season. Take a flyer on one or the other.

The real issue is that we don't necessarily have the coverage or the DEs. The team currently has to sign or replace: Ellis, Harris, Cromartie, Pool and Smith/Ihedigbo out of the guys that were in the rotation in 2010. It will be interesting to see the direction the go in because this is getting to be the chance to add guys to fit Rex rather than to just tweek things here or there.

Since Rex arrived, the only thing they did was swap Barton for Scott, Elam for Leonhard, Rhodes for Pool, demoting Lowery for Sheppard for Cromartie and Coleman for Douglas for Devito. Those are five positions, but some really inconsequential guys being move around. More importantly, 3 of the spots were in the secondary where only Revis remains. It's pretty obvious where Rex couldn't use the "Mangini guys".

No question Rex can put a pretty good defense on the field, even if he does not have elite talent. But I think we do need a top pass rusher. The Pitt O lIne sucked in protection. Brady laid down on some of those sacks. Other, tougher QBs would have probably made a play or two while Brady was curling up in the fetal position. We could not touch Manning. Very few teams do, I know. I cannot help but htink if Manning had his full complement of receivers we would have been out in one. Too many times this year I saw QBs holding the ball for what seemed like an eternity.

[stoicsentry]

Four DTs? Sounds excessive.

It is - I'm just THAT desperate to replace the beastliness in the middle.

So - 3.

Jenkins/Rogers, Pouha, Pick.

The real issue is that we don't necessarily have the coverage or the DEs.

You just said we don't have any glaring weaknesses.

The team currently has to sign or replace: Ellis, Harris, Cromartie, Pool and Smith/Ihedigbo out of the guys that were in the rotation in 2010. It will be interesting to see the direction the go in because this is getting to be the chance to add guys to fit Rex rather than to just tweek things here or there.

Pool, E. Smith, Ighedibo are all dispensable players. I'm not saying I dislike each of them, but they could lose all 3 of them for all I'm concerned, start a rookie at S-2 and be just as well off (though not depthwise)

Only key targets are: Cromartie, Harris, Holmes, Edwards, B. Smith, Ellis

You're right they have a lot of flexibility: they can easily shed MORE than $15 million by cutting: Jenkins (re-sign for less), Gholston (useless), Woody (not needed), Thomas (could go either way but he's almost $4m in savings so worth it), Taylor (junk)

Question: obv. we always talk about RE-signing, but why not about the savings from not having these guys on the books right now?

Presumably we were SOMEWHERE under the cap before, I outlined (presumably) an easy $15 mil in savings + all those guys coming off the books = ????

There's GOT to be a ton of flexibility here.

I'm excited to see what Mike T (Rex) does with this...but a bit worried we'll come out a bit short.

[#27TheDominator]

No question Rex can put a pretty good defense on the field, even if he does not have elite talent. But I think we do need a top pass rusher. The Pitt O lIne sucked in protection. Brady laid down on some of those sacks. Other, tougher QBs would have probably made a play or two while Brady was curling up in the fetal position. We could not touch Manning. Very few teams do, I know. I cannot help but htink if Manning had his full complement of receivers we would have been out in one. Too many times this year I saw QBs holding the ball for what seemed like an eternity.

I'll agree to disagree here. IMO a true pass rusher is a luxury, not a necessity. They have Pryce and Taylor who are both historically excellent if long in the tooth. They generated a great deal of rush from DBs and did it successfully. I think the problem is that early in the year when they generated the rush they were called for a lot mof PI penalties. I don't agree that Manning had mcuh time to throw. They got him at least once and he gets rid of the ball quickly when the pressure comes. There were games where they didn't generate pressure, but I think that came mid-season while they worked out some kinks. Particularly with the coverage on TEs and backs.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love a pass rusher. I just think that you pay a heavy premium for one and I don't think the Jets need to do that.

It is - I'm just THAT desperate to replace the beastliness in the middle.

So - 3.

Jenkins/Rogers, Pouha, Pick.

Fine with me, but I would be happy with Pouha, MTV and pick if they think he's able to cut it. Trouble is, we have no idea if he can. I've said it before, but I think these big 3-4 linemen are often late bloomers which is a reason they can be had cheap - like Devito.

You just said we don't have any glaring weaknesses.

We don't. Assuming we can re-sign our players or a reasonable facsimile.

Pool, E. Smith, Ighedibo are all dispensable players. I'm not saying I dislike each of them, but they could lose all 3 of them for all I'm concerned, start a rookie at S-2 and be just as well off (though not depthwise)

Only key targets are: Cromartie, Harris, Holmes, Edwards, B. Smith, Ellis

You're right they have a lot of flexibility: they can easily shed MORE than $15 million by cutting: Jenkins (re-sign for less), Gholston (useless), Woody (not needed), Thomas (could go either way but he's almost $4m in savings so worth it), Taylor (junk)

Question: obv. we always talk about RE-signing, but why not about the savings from not having these guys on the books right now?

Presumably we were SOMEWHERE under the cap before, I outlined (presumably) an easy $15 mil in savings + all those guys coming off the books = ????

There's GOT to be a ton of flexibility here.

I'm excited to see what Mike T (Rex) does with this...but a bit worried we'll come out a bit short.

I'm excited about this too. Too bad we won't see anything until the CBA garbage is worked out. IMO, your FA priorities are a little off. They can't dump Woody until the sign Hunter (UFA). I also would not cut both Thomas and Taylor. It would be a bad idea to dump our 3rd, 4th and 5th OLBs IMO. I don't care much about resigning Smith. He's a nice enough player for his limited role, but he doesn't seem like he will breakout and I wouldn't pay mmuch for him. Make an offer - if he is offered better, good luck to him. Ellis is the one that I wonder about - I'd have him as a priority, but they do not seem to care.

All this money is why Aso is not a complete pipe dream. There are options. We shall see.

[CTM]

Good points, Tsurfing.

We all agree that the Jets need to improve their ability to get to the QB. IMO, under Rex's system, getting a Ngata helps that more than an OLB. There are no OLBs available on par with Ngata talent wise.

That's a different discussion then..

1) Which positional upgrade would be most important for this defense? ie. Would Demarcus Ware or N'Gata help the jets defense more?

2) Out of whose available who would help the most?

The thread title implies we're arguing #1, but you're falling back on 2.

[SenorGato]

It's embarrassing the way they knocked around our defense. In just one game, they managed to surrender 17 points. No, not seven, SEVEN-teen. I know the Steelers were a championship caliber team, but that's THREE scores in just 60 minutes of football! My god is that disgraceful. Worst defense... EV4R!@

What was actually disgraceful was giving up 150+ yards on the ground in the first half...Either way I'm not trying to pretend this D was all that AND a bag of chips when clearly it didn't even hold a candle to the D we had the year before...

[#27TheDominator]

That's a different discussion then..

1) Which positional upgrade would be most important for this defense? ie. Would Demarcus Ware or N'Gata help the jets defense more?

2) Out of whose available who would help the most?

The thread title implies we're arguing #1, but you're falling back on 2.

That's what everybody wants to make it about in this thread, but I think it should be about about Ngata vs. Asomugha + 2 first round picks. Or maybe Hali.