Jetscode1 Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 fwiw, i was not interested in lynching or outing the cop. Based on what i was told I assumed i couldm't convert scum, and maybe a town power role or two, so I wanted the cop alive to help catch scum, if only to improve my odds... I played it pretty much 100% like a townie in the early game.. I wasn't suggesting anything of the sort...just tried to use the last game to back test the "lynch all liars" theory... I noticed you pressed me early...had a personal issues...came back and quickly unvoted...I concluded at that point you were not scum...had no idea you were the CL at that point. Always curious how some of the axioms fromn mafia play out...appreciate everyone's ideas as I learn...even I-28 fwiw...just trying to improve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetscode1 Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 lynch all liars is a noob rule fair enuff...maybe I'm over analyzing...just trying to understand the optimal strategy for town using simultaneous game theory...maybe "lynch all liars" is too simplistic...may have to compare mafia to political science theory...make an interesting thesis... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CTM Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 fair enuff...maybe I'm over analyzing...just trying to understand the optimal strategy for town using simultaneous game theory...maybe "lynch all liars" is too simplistic...may have to compare mafia to political science theory...make an interesting thesis... hey fair enough... at the end of the day, i28's lie and even more so jvor's lie won this game for town. If it was a blanket rule, town would've lost.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetscode1 Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 hey fair enough... at the end of the day, i28's lie and even more so jvor's lie won this game for town. If it was a blanket rule, town would've lost.. i'm not sure i28's had any impact...although jvor's definitely was the game winner...one lie breeds another...what's the saying...win glorious or go down in flames...still think the optimal strategy should eliminate the dominated strategy...i guess i could have lied when lily asked if i saw smc's guilty read...then when i was converted the scum would have had four...see what i mean...very difficult to calculate... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Integrity28 Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Thought this was a strategy discussion...value of lynching liars...didn't mean to get your panties in a bunch... Yeah, clearly I'm the one with the bunch up panties. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetscode1 Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Yeah, clearly I'm the one with the bunch up panties. sarcasm noted... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Integrity28 Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 i'm not sure i28's had any impact...although jvor's definitely was the game winner...one lie breeds another...what's the saying...win glorious or go down in flames...still think the optimal strategy should eliminate the dominated strategy...i guess i could have lied when lily asked if i saw smc's guilty read...then when i was converted the scum would have had four...see what i mean...very difficult to calculate... How could it have no impact - people were deliberating on how true it was right until the end. It got me to end game as a confirmed townie, and I was able to confirm Slats, thus giving us 2 confirmed townies in end game. Yeah, no impact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Integrity28 Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 I wasn't suggesting anything of the sort...just tried to use the last game to back test the "lynch all liars" theory... I noticed you pressed me early...had a personal issues...came back and quickly unvoted...I concluded at that point you were not scum...had no idea you were the CL at that point. Always curious how some of the axioms fromn mafia play out...appreciate everyone's ideas as I learn...even I-28 fwiw...just trying to improve. Thanks, I think? For as many of you guys that assume I have this ginormous ego, I'll tell ya I am the first one to say when I play like crap - and acknowledge my own bad play. I think over-analysis in these games is paralyzing, I like to shoot from the hip, and go with my gut sometimes too. Ultimately, I expect to have good games - and I expect to have bad ones. Its a game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetscode1 Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 How could it have no impact - people were deliberating on how true it was right until the end. It got me to end game as a confirmed townie, and I was able to confirm Slats, thus giving us 2 confirmed townies in end game. Yeah, no impact. You could ask the others...I'm not sure what the general consensus was...but my take was that lie your prolonged the game...gave the town more to compute not less...the scum read your lie for what it was...a lie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetscode1 Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Thanks, I think? For as many of you guys that assume I have this ginormous ego, I'll tell ya I am the first one to say when I play like crap - and acknowledge my own bad play. I think over-analysis in these games is paralyzing, I like to shoot from the hip, and go with my gut sometimes too. Ultimately, I expect to have good games - and I expect to have bad ones. Its a game. yes...yes...I played horribly as well...rookie cop...no execuse...could've done better...just trying to understand if there is a way to optimize the strategy as far a lying is concerned... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Integrity28 Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 You could ask the others...I'm not sure what the general consensus was...but my take was that lie your prolonged the game...gave the town more to compute not less...the scum read your lie for what it was...a lie. The scum "said" they thought I was lying, but never committed to calling me on it "just in case." That was where the value was if you ask me. When I initially said it, yeah, it prolonged my game. But when Doggin confirmed me, that wifom about my bulletproof kept me alive. How often does scum keep a confirmed townie around until end game? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetscode1 Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Thanks, I think? For as many of you guys that assume I have this ginormous ego, I'll tell ya I am the first one to say when I play like crap - and acknowledge my own bad play. I think over-analysis in these games is paralyzing, I like to shoot from the hip, and go with my gut sometimes too. Ultimately, I expect to have good games - and I expect to have bad ones. Its a game. To add...think jvor play was an excellent example of this...he had serious doubts on Pac plus the odds were in favor that I was converted...well played. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CTM Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 i'm not sure i28's had any impact...although jvor's definitely was the game winner...one lie breeds another...what's the saying...win glorious or go down in flames...still think the optimal strategy should eliminate the dominated strategy...i guess i could have lied when lily asked if i saw smc's guilty read...then when i was converted the scum would have had four...see what i mean...very difficult to calculate... My suspicion is that i28 would've been lynched if not for the bulletproof claim. Which meant I would've converted jvor successfully on N1 (he was my original target since he was voting me all day). if that happens, JVOR becomes recruiter when I die.. I don't think there's any chance cult loses at that point since town power roles and scum were outed soo quickly.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Integrity28 Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 yes...yes...I played horribly as well...rookie cop...no execuse...could've done better...just trying to understand if there is a way to optimize the strategy as far a lying is concerned... Not sure if there is or isn't... to be honest, I did it first, then hoped it would grow in value as a bluff as the game went on. Could have screwed me, but it didn't. I'm a gambler, so I'm cool with rolling the dice like that... I let the strategic aspect unfold as the game did. There is no predicting how people will respond. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetscode1 Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 The scum "said" they thought I was lying, but never committed to calling me on it "just in case." That was where the value was if you ask me. When I initially said it, yeah, it prolonged my game. But when Doggin confirmed me, that wifom about my bulletproof kept me alive. How often does scum keep a confirmed townie around until end game? I'll concede that point...it got you to end game...the scum did not want to lead the charge against you...but were more than willing to jump on your train when it was there... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CTM Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 yes...yes...I played horribly as well...rookie cop...no execuse...could've done better...just trying to understand if there is a way to optimize the strategy as far a lying is concerned... As cop it's tough,t you pretty much have to claim cop and hope there's doc protection. The role is just way too important. When I was outed as cop by jvor in thing game I half claimed doc, but wouldn't fully claim, it worked well, but again, I was claiming under pressue of someone watching me, rather then under pressure of lynch.. It's funny, we often out cops early here cause cops approach day 1 the same as scum.. stay under the radar.. lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pac Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 How could it have no impact - people were deliberating on how true it was right until the end. It got me to end game as a confirmed townie, and I was able to confirm Slats, thus giving us 2 confirmed townies in end game. Yeah, no impact. Sharrows comment notwithstanding I don't think it had the scum team deliberating in the least. I suggested shooting your a$$ on a few occasions but was overruled because your horrific play was beneficial. Plus 3 more "hippe" blasts on Slats would have made it an even 50 for the game and I wanted to see if you could reach that milestone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CTM Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Thanks, I think? For as many of you guys that assume I have this ginormous ego, I'll tell ya I am the first one to say when I play like crap - and acknowledge my own bad play. I think over-analysis in these games is paralyzing, I like to shoot from the hip, and go with my gut sometimes too. Ultimately, I expect to have good games - and I expect to have bad ones. Its a game. you have a ginormous ego .. and a tiny peen fu ape Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pac Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 you have a ginormous ego .. and a tiny peen fu ape you believe this fu--ing guy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CTM Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 you believe this fu--ing guy? you're atop the emo leaderboards, so stfu pacmule Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetscode1 Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 My suspicion is that i28 would've been lynched if not for the bulletproof claim. Which meant I would've converted jvor successfully on N1 (he was my original target since he was voting me all day). if that happens, JVOR becomes recruiter when I die.. I don't think there's any chance cult loses at that point since town power roles and scum were outed soo quickly.. Then the corollary should hold that we should expect all town people to lie to further their own self interest...not sure that leads to optimum strategy...maximizing individual welfare does not necessarily aggregate to optimal welfare for a group...have you ever heard of the prisoner's dilemma? Maybe I'm just trying to over-analyze this concept...yes, probably... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pac Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 you're atop the emo leaderboards, so stfu pacmule last time I try to extend an olive branch to you, you miserable prick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CTM Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Then the corollary should hold that we should expect all town people to lie to further their own self interest...not sure that leads to optimum strategy...maximizing individual welfare does not necessarily aggregate to optimal welfare for a group...have you ever heard of the prisoner's dilemma? Maybe I'm just trying to over-analyze this concept...yes, probably... Yup I'm aware of prisoner's dliema... This reminds me of the picking up the blond scene in beautiful mind, lol.. where this is different, I do believe, every towns person goal should be to make the scums goal more difficult to achieve,,, in the ape's case, it served his personal goal (selfishly surviving) but also served a community goal, allowing a confirmed townie to survive.. there was very little risk involved. Jvor on the other hand only served a personal goal (albeit with community goal intentions), had he been wrong about pac, town losses with a quickness. It's great that he got it right, but now that this can of worms have been opened, there absolutely will be someone who does the same thing and is wrong.. at the end of the day, my eprsonal opinon is that lying/non lying isn't the issue, what is the issue is the certainty with which you can make scums job's harder.. (like being bullet proof and lying about it) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CTM Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 last time I try to extend an olive branch to you, you miserable prick. "get a load of this ****in guy" was extending an olive branch? what are you a honey badger? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetscode1 Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Yup I'm aware of prisoner's dliema... This reminds me of the picking up the blond scene in beautiful mind, lol.. where this is different, I do believe, every towns person goal should be to make the scums goal more difficult to achieve,,, in the ape's case, it served his personal goal (selfishly surviving) but also served a community goal, allowing a confirmed townie to survive.. there was very little risk involved. Jvor on the other hand only served a personal goal (albeit with community goal intentions), had he been wrong about pac, town losses with a quickness. It's great that he got it right, but now that this can of worms have been opened, there absolutely will be someone who does the same thing and is wrong.. at the end of the day, my eprsonal opinon is that lying/non lying isn't the issue, what is the issue is the certainty with which you can make scums job's harder.. (like being bullet proof and lying about it) Exactly my point...in this game notwithstanding...the problem with the prisoners is they cannot communicate...hence they cannot agree to hold out for lighter sentences...in mafia the town and the scum can communicate...the town needs to discern the truth or the motives of the poster...if not each individual player just seeks glory...imo...the town is at a serious disadvantage if lying is encouraged...probably worse than not keeping up with in game conversations or zero content posts...but i'm willing to consider a more logical explanation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bleedin Green Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 The scum "said" they thought I was lying, but never committed to calling me on it "just in case." That was where the value was if you ask me. When I initially said it, yeah, it prolonged my game. But when Doggin confirmed me, that wifom about my bulletproof kept me alive. How often does scum keep a confirmed townie around until end game? Well you're both kind of right in a way. Your bulletproof claim did work in that there was hesitation to target you just in case there was some level of validity to it, even though we didn't believe there to be. On the other hand, JC has a point to an extent, as there was never the right level of motivation for us to even worry about testing it all that much. Don't take this the wrong way, but we weren't all that concerned about taking you out because you didn't seem to have much of a scum read on most of us (at least not that you mentioned). Of course it's impossible to know how things would've played out at endgame if I was successful the night I died. Your claim very well could have won you the game, but at that point I felt comfortable keeping you around because you had a few people who you seemed to like as scum that I would've been glad to have you vote for instead of me at end game. Is there a distinct possibility you die earlier if not for that claim? Of course, but it's tough to say how much impact it could have had given how the game played out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CTM Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Exactly my point...in this game notwithstanding...the problem with the prisoners is they cannot communicate...hence they cannot agree to hold out for lighter sentences...in mafia the town and the scum can communicate...the town needs to discern the truth or the motives of the poster...if not each individual player just seeks glory...imo...the town is at a serious disadvantage if lying is encouraged...probably worse than not keeping up with in game conversations or zero content posts...but i'm willing to consider a more logical explanation. Right, but when there is a clear town advantage, like not claiming bulletproof, then lying is benefitual to town and individual.. goals are aligned Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetscode1 Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Right, but when there is a clear town advantage, like not claiming bulletproof, then lying is benefitual to town and individual.. goals are aligned We'll see if the town likes it when the next person claims bullet proof...lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jets Voice of Reason Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 I think town lying should be limited and only in situations where benefits can be achieved. The obvious massive danger of town lying is you stand about as good a chance of confusing other townies as you do the mafia. That can often be really detrimental to the town. For instance, I don't think anyone should ever lie in a mass role reveal. That usually happens when town needs to know what's claimed to figure out numbers. I also think fake revealing as a role that might be counterclaimed in a game is severely anti-town. I.e fake claiming doc and cop as town really leads more often than not to disaster. I don't think a real cop should lie about their report unless they are clear somehow and uncounterclaimed. A real cop faking guilty on an innocent can be epic disaster especially if scum have the wherewithal to counterclaim after the fact. It's a mess. As for this past game, I lied because I thought there were multiple kills, we had gimped vigs, and I thought with scum + serial killer+ possible cult we needed a hail mary. i.e I thought we were way behind so I made a risky play. I wouldn't have pulled that crap had I thought we stood a good chance at winning without it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jets Voice of Reason Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 A good reason to be less than honest as townie: not revealing or indicating restrictions that may help the mafia more than letting the town know your circumstances. For instance, if you have a protection restriction as doctor, you really shouldn't make that known. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Integrity28 Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 you believe this fu--ing guy? **** you. I am the only one that after every game makes sure nobody was seriously offended by all the sh*t talk, and self-critiques. How you get "ginormous ego" out of that is beyond me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CTM Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 A good reason to be less than honest as townie: not revealing or indicating restrictions that may help the mafia more than letting the town know your circumstances. For instance, if you have a protection restriction as doctor, you really shouldn't make that known. Yes, of if you're a watcher with 1 day bulletproof.. don't mention the bullet proof cause you want to sucker them into a NK.. IN fact, I never claim bp unless i have to Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CTM Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 **** you. I am the only one that after every game makes sure nobody was seriously offended by all the sh*t talk, and self-critiques. How you get "ginormous ego" out of that is beyond me. Ohh lol.. I thought that was aimed at me.. haha sorry pac and fu ape, you're about as gracious as male lion stealing the female lions kill and eating first.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bleedin Green Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Yes, of if you're a watcher with 1 day bulletproof.. don't mention the bullet proof cause you want to sucker them into a NK.. IN fact, I never claim bp unless i have to This. To just reveal it is pretty much defeating the real purpose, which is not to just stay alive, but waste a scum NK. Which is actually the first thing that made me think I28 was full of crap, there was no possible benefit for him to reveal himself as bulletproof if he really was. Then you just combine that with the sketchy a$$ details that followed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barmacral Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 I felt it appropriate to ignore the post-game for 3 days. Hi everyone! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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