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So This Is How The 2011 Red Sox Should Line-Up


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Ellsbury is terrible. He's a decent defender but on the whole he's just a terrible baseball player. It's pretty funny that Boston fans are blind as to how bad he is. I only compared him to granderson because that pats troll was making the hilarious point that he's better than granderson.

Compared to how you are draped all over Granderson's nuts? :rolleyes:

There is on thing Granderson does better than Jacoby. He has more power.

This means he will always have a higher slugging and consequently a higher OPS. Which are the two stats you usually slam Jacoby on. :rolleyes:

We know what Granderson is. I would not say he is even an average hitter, but he does have some Dave Kingmanesque pop to his bat. Take away 2007-8 and Granderson's numbers are JAG.

Jacoby may or may not be JAG. Although this season he is getting closer to Granderson than where I saw him going a few seasons ago. He isn't hitting for sh*t and King way too much.

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The only good thing about football ending is the increased focus on baseball. You guys are great.

Scott's Board Discuss Individual Players Here --This forum is locked. Teams matter, players don't. Discuss Teams Here --This forum is locked. Speculation doesn't matter, records speak

I was just thinking about how awful it is for baseball when a huge market team sends one of their GM's underlings to a small market team to be a GM and he promptly trades the 28 year old best player o

Compared to how you are draped all over Granderson's nuts? :rolleyes:

There is on thing Granderson does better than Jacoby. He has more power.

This means he will always have a higher slugging and consequently a higher OPS. Which are the two stats you usually slam Jacoby on. :rolleyes:

We know what Granderson is. I would not say he is even an average hitter, but he does have some Dave Kingmanesque pop to his bat. Take away 2007-8 and Granderson's numbers are JAG.

Jacoby may or may not be JAG. Although this season he is getting closer to Granderson than where I saw him going a few seasons ago. He isn't hitting for sh*t and King way too much.

Right so except for the fact that Granderson is better Ellsbury is better. GREAT argument.

Also don't sell me so short! I've also slammed ellsbury on his mediocre OBP and defense. There is really nothing he does well.

Edited by madmikeisback
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Right so except for the fact that Granderson is better Ellsbury is better. GREAT argument.

Also don't sell me so short! I've also slammed ellsbury on his mediocre OBP and defense. There is really nothing he does well.

He stole 120 bases in two seasons. He does NOTHING well? Come on.

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Ask Dave Roberts how not valuable stealing bases is.

Yes. One play (by a guy who was not a good player) proves something about whats a valuable skill or not. Also you're making an argument for carrying a pinch runner (I don't even disagree with that) not a starting centerfielder.

Edited by madmikeisback
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Yes. One play (by a guy who was not a good player) proves something about whats a valuable skill or not. Also you're making an argument for carrying a pinch runner (I don't even disagree with that) not a starting centerfielder.

It proved pretty valuable that series. And I'm not making an argument for carrying a pinch runner. I'm making the argument that stolen bases can change the course of a game, and as a matter of FACT, history.

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It proved pretty valuable that series. And I'm not making an argument for carrying a pinch runner. I'm making the argument that stolen bases can change the course of a game, and as a matter of FACT, history.

So can an error or a balk or a bad call or loads of other things that happen in a baseball game. That doesn't mean you build your team around those things. You're being thick.

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So can an error or a balk or a bad call or loads of other things that happen in a baseball game. That doesn't mean you build your team around those things. You're being thick.

Who said anything about building a team around it? You're putting words in my mouth. Base stealers can be very valuable members of the team because stolen bases can be very valuable. To say they have little to no value is ridiculous.

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Who said anything about building a team around it? You're putting words in my mouth. Base stealers can be very valuable members of the team because stolen bases can be very valuable. To say they have little to no value is ridiculous.

Over the long haul of a 162 game season....stolen bases have been proven to be one of the least valuable statistics in winning baseball games.

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Over the long haul of a 162 game season....stolen bases have been proven to be one of the least valuable statistics in winning baseball games.

It is impossible to prove the true value of speed.

Obviously, there is a certain percentage that you need to steal at in order to be a positive, rather than a detriment.

But, speed can also distract a pitcher. It can allow a batter to see more fastballs if a speedy runner is on the bases. Those are things that can't be measured.

Given druthers, if I could pick a player who was slothy, or speedy, and every other attribute was the same, I would choose the speed guy. Stolen bases aren't the only attributable measure of speed.

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It is impossible to prove the true value of speed.

Obviously, there is a certain percentage that you need to steal at in order to be a positive, rather than a detriment.

But, speed can also distract a pitcher. It can allow a batter to see more fastballs if a speedy runner is on the bases. Those are things that can't be measured.

Given druthers, if I could pick a player who was slothy, or speedy, and every other attribute was the same, I would choose the speed guy. Stolen bases aren't the only attributable measure of speed.

Obviously, but how many of those exist? Hardly any.

Speed doesnt hurt anyone, but a majority of the best major league hitters aren't speed guys. It's not nearly as valuable as being able to hit.

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SD with the brilliant point that in deciding between identical players you should take the faster one all else being the same. Another gem.

Your posts make me sad. I am going to go running to a Mod and asked that you get Banned.

Edited by Scott Dierking
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Over the long haul of a 162 game season....stolen bases have been proven to be one of the least valuable statistics in winning baseball games.

You might want to check the Rays vs. Red Sox series that last few years. Next to pitching, their performance on the base paths earned a few victories.

You can say that about a lot of stats. I see your point, but as Scott said. I would rather have speed then not have it. Especially, when that situation arises where you can utilize it like Game 4 of the 2004 ALCS.

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You might want to check the Rays vs. Red Sox series that last few years. Next to pitching, their performance on the base paths earned a few victories.

You can say that about a lot of stats. I see your point, but as Scott said. I would rather have speed then not have it. Especially, when that situation arises where you can utilize it like Game 4 of the 2004 ALCS.

Again, this is an obvious statement. I don't get the point you're trying to make.

There are obviously certain situations where speed will increase your chances of winning a game, but over the course of a 162 game season, a guy that can hit is a lot more valuable than a Scott Posednik or Juan Pierre.

It's only 90 feet. It isn't a track meet.

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Again, this is an obvious statement. I don't get the point you're trying to make.

There are obviously certain situations where speed will increase your chances of winning a game, but over the course of a 162 game season, a guy that can hit is a lot more valuable than a Scott Posednik or Juan Pierre.

It's only 90 feet. It isn't a track meet.

My point is this.

I am not saying stolen base is the be all end all of stats. Not even close.

Short of going through each situation it is hard to quantify the impact stolen base has, but it is undeniable.

I would be willing to bet there are more situations where a stolen base extends a teams' chance at winning by taking away the double play and/or putting someone in scoring position. It is not like managers are letting most players steal a base on a whim. Strategy plays into it just like defending against stolen base does. I think we can agree we all want a catcher to be above average in that department than not which is currently the Sox FO thinking.

Yet, all we see is A-Rod hitting a grand slam to extend a 9-3 lead to 13-3 like he did last week.

I agree the stolen base is more of an auxiliary stat, but it has an impact on the game.

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My point is this.

I am not saying stolen base is the be all end all of stats. Not even close.

Short of going through each situation it is hard to quantify the impact stolen base has, but it is undeniable.

I would be willing to bet there are more situations where a stolen base extends a teams' chance at winning by taking away the double play and/or putting someone in scoring position. It is not like managers are letting most players steal a base on a whim. Strategy plays into it just like defending against stolen base does. I think we can agree we all want a catcher to be above average in that department than not which is currently the Sox FO thinking.

Yet, all we see is A-Rod hitting a grand slam to extend a 9-3 lead to 13-3 like he did last week.

I agree the stolen base is more of an auxiliary stat, but it has an impact on the game.

I'm not denying the fact that stolen bases can and do play a role in winning baseball. But their overall effect is near the bottom in terms of winning games over a 162 game season. The Mets led the NL in stolen bases last year.

And if you want to get more specific....Gardner might be the fastest player in baseball...the guy cant hit worth a sh*t though. How valuable is he?

Edited by Matt39
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I'm not denying the fact that stolen bases can and do play a role in winning baseball. But their overall effect is near the bottom in terms of winning games over a 162 game season. The Mets led the NL in stolen bases last year.

And if you want to get more specific....Gardner might be the fastest player in baseball...the guy cant hit worth a sh*t though. How valuable is he?

There is no be all, end all stat that will have you measure the ultimate success of any team, regardless of what the stat geeks will tell you.

They will have you believe that a strikeout is the same as any other out. Of course it isn't.

Will a track team win more games over the long haul than another club? Most likely not. But having the ability to steal, having speed are attributes which certainly can contribute to winning.

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There is no be all, end all stat that will have you measure the ultimate success of any team, regardless of what the stat geeks will tell you.

They will have you believe that a strikeout is the same as any other out. Of course it isn't.

Will a track team win more games over the long haul than another club? Most likely not. But having the ability to steal, having speed are attributes which certainly can contribute to winning.

Yes, I've agreed with this. It just isnt nearly as important as hitting or pitching.

Edited by Matt39
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Yes, I've agreed with this. It just isnt nearly as important as hitting or pitching.

I agree with your point, but do not totally agree.

Is speed needed in hitting No. In the end, you need to hit the ball well be it a single, a double to the gap or homerun.

However, you need speed in your line-up and positional players.

Now, I am not saying you need 4.3 track guy in all the outfield spots, but you cannot have a Manny/Old Barry Bonds at all spots. The same can be said for the middle of the infield.

Additionally, you want speed at the top of your line-up so they can turn singles into doubles and not clog the base paths when your 3-4-5 hitters come to the plate.

Again, I am not saying speed = 4.3 track guys who are Mendoza line hitters. In addition to talent, you need some athleticism in your line-up and at certain positional spots.

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I agree with your point, but do not totally agree.

Is speed needed in hitting No. In the end, you need to hit the ball well be it a single, a double to the gap or homerun.

However, you need speed in your line-up and positional players.

Now, I am not saying you need 4.3 track guy in all the outfield spots, but you cannot have a Manny/Old Barry Bonds at all spots. The same can be said for the middle of the infield.

Additionally, you want speed at the top of your line-up so they can turn singles into doubles and not clog the base paths when your 3-4-5 hitters come to the plate.

Again, I am not saying speed = 4.3 track guys who are Mendoza line hitters. In addition to talent, you need some athleticism in your line-up and at certain positional spots.

The Whitey Herzog Cardinals of the mid-80's are a classic example of a team that put extra pressure on defense just because of the brand of ball that they played with a bunch of rabbits.

Vince Coleman without his legs never gets a sniff of the minor leagues. But because he had ungodly speed, he was actually a vital part of that offense, and when he was out of the line-up, their offense suffered.

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I'm just basking in the stupidity of this argument. Anecdotal evidence and THAT GUY RAN FAST. Very high level of discussion going on here...

We are trying to top the stupidity of the discussion you created of Jason Giambi being a HOF player.

A long way before it gets there. :)

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I'm just basking in the stupidity of this argument. Anecdotal evidence and THAT GUY RAN FAST. Very high level of discussion going on here...

Blah blah blah. Thanks for contributing. :rolleyes:

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Mike obviously doesnt have much tact...but you guys are using mostly anecdotal evidence.

What isn't anectdotal in sport? (other than W's and L's)

The geeks will try and support things with statistics, but at the end of the day, they don't mean squat, other than to allow some people who have a hard time seeing the game with their own eyes put in numbered terms.

Statistics while a guide, are not a predictor of anything.

Edited by Scott Dierking
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What isn't anectdotal in sport? (other than W's and L's)

The geeks will try and support things with statistics, but at the end of the day, they don't mean squat, other than to allow some people who have a hard time seeing the game with their own eyes put in numbered terms.

Statistics while a guide, are not a predictor of anything.

In baseball, sure they are.

The problem with eyes is that they often lie, especially over the course of a 162 game season. Every major league team right now uses statistics to put together their team.

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What isn't anectdotal in sport? (other than W's and L's)

The geeks will try and support things with statistics, but at the end of the day, they don't mean squat, other than to allow some people who have a hard time seeing the game with their own eyes put in numbered terms.

Statistics while a guide, are not a predictor of anything.

In baseball, sure they are.

The problem with eyes is that they often lie, especially over the course of a 162 game season. Every major league team right now uses statistics to put together their team.

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In baseball, sure they are.

The problem with eyes is that they often lie, especially over the course of a 162 game season. Every major league team right now uses statistics to put together their team.

Statistics lie more than the eye does. They cannot be put in context.

Tell me the single most important baseball statistic that directly relates to a team winning.

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Statistics lie more than the eye does. They cannot be put in context.

Tell me the single most important baseball statistic that directly relates to a team winning.

Eyes lie way more than stats do. You can always believe what you want to see.

OBP. Its the catlayst for every other statistic that wins you baseball games. Not making outs = winning.

And obviously strong starting pitching.

Edited by Matt39
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