Transgender student makes history on prom night... Florida teen is first transgender person to be prom queen at a U.S. public school

[JustInFudge]

Ok then, should this kid be allowed to play on the women's teams?

This.

[war ensemble]

However, enacting the change IS a conscious choice. The desire for one is not. So, as an individual struggling with these issues, you have two choices. Change and deal with external struggles. Stay the same, and deal with internal struggles.

That's true, but if you recognize the conflict as something that's natural and not abnormal/freakish/weird/whatever, I don't think you would have any qualms about letting the transsexual change their gender.

EDIT: Maybe swapping "any qualms about" with "any rational justification for not..." would be more accurate?

[JerryK]

This.

Plenty of females have handicaps that prevent them from playing on varsity girls' teams.

Being born male is is such a handicap this kid will need to accept.

So they politely deny the kid access to the team and respect his sexual identity. Case closed.

Then we go home and try to find something better to do than worry about how our neighbors wipe their backside and what direction they point when they shag.

[JustInFudge]

Plenty of females have handicaps that prevent them from playing on varsity girls' teams.

Being born male is is such a handicap this kid will need to accept.

So they politely deny the kid access to the team and respect his sexual identity. Case closed.

Then we go home and try to find something better to do than worry about how our neighbors wipe their backside and what direction they point when they shag.

Huh? Change "playing on varsity girls teams" with "running for Prom Queen".

Whats the difference?

[war ensemble]

Huh? Change "playing on varsity girls teams" with "running for Prom Queen".

Whats the difference?

Isn't it fairly obvious? There's no competitive advantage in being male (in the physical sense, assuming pre-op) while running for prom queen, while there's an obvious physical advantage in being male (once again in the purely physical sense) while playing sports with women.

[THE ILK]

Just an observation, but invoking "God's wishes" or whatever as a defense seems to me more like a plea to avoid rationality. If one goes that route this thread will be like the sexual identity equivalent of intelligent design vs evolution.

I'm sure EY knows a lot more about the technical stuff than me, but I believe there is scientific research that backs the fact that a. transgendered individuals' brains exhibit some or all of the characteristics of the sex that they wish to be (thus removing this from the "conscious choice" category [as if it were some sort of thought-over idea?] and b. that reparative therapy does not work.

Every man and women, born of man and woman, is born of a corruptible seed.

The human body is corruptible; the human spirit is corruptible as well.

This corruption manifests itself in many different ways.

The way people perceive these manifestations, as right or wrong, or good or bad, has no bearing on this: "God's wishes" is that everybody be free of this corruption, don't get it confused.

He knew of them all before any of us, and it did not change His Love for anyone, regardless of how the corruption manifested itself.

God’s Love is agape.

That is the important thing to know about God, anybody condemning anybody for anything does not know what God is all about.

Use the thief on the cross from the gospels, just to get a perspective of God’s Love, whether you believe it or not.

For all we know about that man, he never did a good thing in all his life, and he said he deserved his fate.

Man condemned him, but God did not.

[war ensemble]

Every man and women, born of man and woman, is born of a corruptible seed.

The human body is corruptible; the human spirit is corruptible as well.

This corruption manifests itself in many different ways.

The way people perceive these manifestations, as right or wrong, or good or bad, has no bearing on this: "God's wishes" is that everybody be free of this corruption, don't get it confused.

He knew of them all before any of us, and it did not change His Love for anyone, regardless of how the corruption manifested itself.

God’s Love is agape.

That is the important thing to know about God, anybody condemning anybody for anything does not know what God is all about.

Use the thief on the cross from the gospels, just to get a perspective of God’s Love, whether you believe it or not.

For all we know about that man, he never did a good thing in all his life, and he said he deserved his fate.

Man condemned him, but God did not.

This is theoretically cool and all, but God also sent she-bears to maul children making fun of Elisha. And then you have the obvious observable contradiction in believing that a god is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent (assuming you do, correct me if wrong) while evil exists in the world (and free will, original sin, etc. are rather silly and incompatible with the aforementioned omni-s).

Granted that's completely out of the scope of this thread, but you made me do it! lol

[JustInFudge]

Isn't it fairly obvious? There's no competitive advantage in being male (in the physical sense, assuming pre-op) while running for prom queen, while there's an obvious physical advantage in being male (once again in the purely physical sense) while playing sports with women.

Sure but in this case, people voted for the spectacle. So was he really at a disadvantage? And the advantege really isnt the point here as Bob put it.

[The Crusher]

I love having a penis and I also love touching vaginas. It's kind of like ordering a cheeseburger and forgetting to ask for bacon, but they accidentally put the bacon on there anyways. Except instead of a bacon cheeseburger, you get no-no parts.

You don't need a condom to eat a bacon cheese burger that's easy to get.

[war ensemble]

Sure but in this case, people voted for the spectacle. So was he really at a disadvantage? And the advantege really isnt the point here as Bob put it.

Who's bob? The poster named bob hasn't posted in this thread unless I missed it twice, lol.

How do you know that people voted "for the spectacle," and not for thinking she deserved it/it is a nice gesture of unity/etc.?

Even if there was such an advantage, is anyone going to change their sexuality physically just to enjoy some perceived advantage? I know you're not arguing that at all, but the areas where it would be, or could be perceived as, unfairly advantageous are few and far between. Unless I'm just not creative, the only popularity/sports things would end by college.

They may or may not be allowed to participate in sports, but they deserve every legal and personal rights/privileges afforded to the majority of people today. The discussion about perceived advantages isn't really relevant until one concedes that they deserve equality por lo general.

[JerryK]

Huh? Change "playing on varsity girls teams" with "running for Prom Queen".

Whats the difference?

"running for Prom Queen" isn't the issue here; you just made that up.

The question I responded to was whether a physical male who 'thinks' as a female can be on female sports teams. I think you and I would agree the answer is no. I think we can say 'no' while still respecting the kid's mental identity. In 500 years, maybe we can perfectly change a person's gender down to the last molecule, and at that point I'd have no problem saying 'yes'.

hmmm.... This poses an interesting question...

Let's say it's the year 2525, and there's a new machine that can totally change your gender down to the molecules. You're 100% female. And let's say you can get a PREVIEW first.

-Currently, you're short, ugly, lonely, and broke.

-The machine says your conversion will make you SMOKING HOT and you know from that pic you'd have a serious money-maker in your back pocket. One trip to Hef's house for a couple pictures and you've got 500grand. (nothing says you gotta date guys after the conversion)

-Would you consider it?

[war ensemble]

"running for Prom Queen" isn't the issue here; you just made that up.

The question I responded to was whether a physical male who 'thinks' as a female can be on female sports teams. I think you and I would agree the answer is no. I think we can say 'no' while still respecting the kid's mental identity. In 500 years, maybe we can perfectly change a person's gender down to the last molecule, and at that point I'd have no problem saying 'yes'.

hmmm.... This poses an interesting question...

Let's say it's the year 2525, and there's a new machine that can totally change your gender down to the molecules. You're 100% female. And let's say you can get a PREVIEW first.

-Currently, you're short, ugly, lonely, and broke.

-The machine says your conversion will make you SMOKING HOT and you know from that pic you'd have a serious money-maker in your back pocket. One trip to Hef's house for a couple pictures and you've got 500grand. (nothing says you gotta date guys after the conversion)

-Would you consider it?

Sounds like sexual relativism. If everyone can be hot, nobody would be hot. Just as if everyone were rich, nobody would be rich. etc.

[CTM]

Sure but in this case, people voted for the spectacle. So was he really at a disadvantage? And the advantege really isnt the point here as Bob put it.

you're out of your element donnie.. hope back on your powder blue tricycle, with your little pinwheel hat and go harrass the fatties in jax..

And.. as evidenced by the protesters, I'd say this person was at some disadvantage. Probably would've lost if not for the idiots protesting

[ZachEY]

Not to get too deep, but what about dudes whose moms dress them up and sh*t constantly when they're kids?

I'm not sure what you mean? Elaborate.

[ZachEY]

That's true, but if you recognize the conflict as something that's natural and not abnormal/freakish/weird/whatever, I don't think you would have any qualms about letting the transsexual change their gender.

EDIT: Maybe swapping "any qualms about" with "any rational justification for not..." would be more accurate?

I agree.

And especially with your edit. Problem is, when politics and religion enter, rationality tends to take a back seat to beliefs. There's no rational reason to deny gay marriage, though there's an incredibly powerful movement to do so.

[THE ILK]

This is theoretically cool and all, but God also sent she-bears to maul children making fun of Elisha. And then you have the obvious observable contradiction in believing that a god is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent (assuming you do, correct me if wrong) while evil exists in the world (and free will, original sin, etc. are rather silly and incompatible with the aforementioned omni-s).

Granted that's completely out of the scope of this thread, but you made me do it! lol

The original text to which you refer is written in Hebrew, and in the Hebrew text, it does not say they were children.

I also don't see how any of the omni's, contradicts anything, or makes anything silly.

You know if I address this here, the thread is just going to get locked, and I will be using my next account shortly there after.

If you would like to discuss this further though, feel free to PM me.

[CTM]

I'm not sure what you mean? Elaborate.

His mom made him wear pretty dresses as a grade schooler and called him dougette when his father wasn't home. Now he's wondering if his hermaphrodite fantasy is simply deviant perversion or his subconscious trying to tell him something.

[ZachEY]

His mom made him wear pretty dresses as a grade schooler and called him dougette when his father wasn't home. Now he's wondering if his hermaphrodite fantasy is simply deviant perversion or his subconscious trying to tell him something.

This looks like as good a time as any to just say:

Symbolic Penis.

[JerryK]

Sounds like sexual relativism. If everyone can be hot, nobody would be hot. Just as if everyone were rich, nobody would be rich. etc.

Sorry, I was thinking along the lines of everyone's female self being different, and not all hot.

I think it's an intriguing question. If you could still date chicks? Money? No selective service requirement? The ability to work in the yard and drive a stickshift car on a hot day and not get skidmarks? (wait, was that out loud?)

[RutgersJetFan]

I'm not sure what you mean? Elaborate.

You posted this before:

However, enacting the change IS a conscious choice. The desire for one is not. So, as an individual struggling with these issues, you have two choices. Change and deal with external struggles. Stay the same, and deal with internal struggles.

Now, I don't know much about this kind of stuff. And by not much I mean absolutely nothing. However, I do watch a lot of Law & Order and other shows on TNT. And every now and then they have one of those episodes where the dude's been traumatized because his mom put makeup and dresses on him while he was growing up, so he goes and rapes animals or kills someone, and he thinks he's a woman. My point is that is how does something like that fall in to what you're describing above? The dude's basically been brainwashed since childhood, right? So is that really a conscious choice?

[RutgersJetFan]

Now he's wondering if his hermaphrodite fantasy is simply deviant perversion or his subconscious trying to tell him something.

It is, it's called ******* with Christians.

[Maxman]

I haven't read any of this. Just checking in to show that we, JetNation -- the site that cares, are indeed patrolling the neighborhood. And we are concerned for everyone's well being. If there are concerns, issues or any other matters that need to be dealt with, please PM The Crusher. And he will make it all better.

Thanks.

[RutgersJetFan]

I haven't read any of this. Just checking in to show that we, JetNation -- the site that cares, are indeed patrolling the neighborhood. And we are concerned for everyone's well being. If there are concerns, issues or any other matters that need to be dealt with, please PM The Crusher. And he will make it all better.

Thanks.

CTM accused my mom of wanting me to have a vagina.

[ZachEY]

You posted this before:

Now, I don't know much about this kind of stuff. And by not much I mean absolutely nothing. However, I do watch a lot of Law & Order and other shows on TNT. And every now and then they have one of those episodes where the dude's been traumatized because his mom put makeup and dresses on him while he was growing up, so he goes and rapes animals or kills someone, and he thinks he's a woman. My point is that is how does something like that fall in to what you're describing above? The dude's basically been brainwashed since childhood, right? So is that really a conscious choice?

The error you're making is equating the two.

While you're citing extreme cases created for a tv audience, you're basically talking about the affect of early trauma on personality and relationships. A more 'real life' example of what you're talking about is the abused woman falling into an abusive relationship or the abused male becoming an abuser.

In transgendered individuals, my understanding is there's not really an underlying trauma contributing to their desire for sexual reassignment. Hence, why it's not considered a pathology. It's seen as innate and not experiential.

EDIT: In real life, the situation you're describing would more likely present in an adult as hypermasculinity. Often males who've been emasculated early in life counter-identify to prove something to themselves and to their environment.

[Maxman]

CTM accused my mom of wanting me to have a vagina.

That was possibly insensitive of him. We will debate this issue internally for a period not extending past 72 hours. Then we will decide on a swift course of corrective action, only to fail upon our implementation.

Thanks for bringing this to our attention and be assured that we are all over this.

[Maxman]

"running for Prom Queen" isn't the issue here; you just made that up.

The question I responded to was whether a physical male who 'thinks' as a female can be on female sports teams. I think you and I would agree the answer is no. I think we can say 'no' while still respecting the kid's mental identity. In 500 years, maybe we can perfectly change a person's gender down to the last molecule, and at that point I'd have no problem saying 'yes'.

hmmm.... This poses an interesting question...

Let's say it's the year 2525, and there's a new machine that can totally change your gender down to the molecules. You're 100% female. And let's say you can get a PREVIEW first.

-Currently, you're short, ugly, lonely, and broke.

-The machine says your conversion will make you SMOKING HOT and you know from that pic you'd have a serious money-maker in your back pocket. One trip to Hef's house for a couple pictures and you've got 500grand. (nothing says you gotta date guys after the conversion)

-Would you consider it?

This premise is flawed. Assuming a free market society, the premium would no longer be on super hot females. The market would be flooded with them.

The short and ugly guy would be in demand.

The good news for me is I just have to make it until 2525 and then i'm all set apparently.

[slats]

EDIT: In real life, the situation you're describing would more likely present in an adult as hypermasculinity. Often males who've been emasculated early in life counter-identify to prove something to themselves and to their environment.

So they'd -say- take up boxing?

[The Crusher]

It is, it's called ******* with Christians.

Bad form?

CTM accused my mom of wanting me to have a vagina.

I will speak to him. We can get thru this.

So they'd -say- take up boxing?

Problem solved.

[Naeann]

If they are going by "Andi" and feel they should have been born female or are currently starting the process to become female then why are the parents calling the prom queen a He? If they truly support Andi they should refer to Andi as she.

[slats]

If they are going by "Andi" and feel they should have been born female or are currently starting the process to become female then why are the parents calling the prom queen a He? If they truly support Andi they should refer to Andi as she.

I agree with you. The parents sound reluctant - we love him no matter what! I'm sure it's tough for them. The pronouns are tough, too. With my kids' friend, I had no problem with the name change, but really had to focus on the "he's" instead of "she's".

[Falcon63]

hai Andi

[Sperm Edwards]

hai Andi

Son, all I've ever asked of the JetNation posters is that they obey my orders as they would the word of God. We are here to help the gender-benders, because inside every transgendered person there is a straight American trying to get out. It's a hardball world, son. We've gotta keep our heads until this I'm-female-if-I-think-I'm-female craze blows over.

[ZachEY]

So they'd -say- take up boxing?

win.

[CTM]

CTM accused my mom of wanting me to have a vagina.

lol

So they'd -say- take up boxing?

FTW

[Falcon63]

Son, all I've ever asked of the JetNation posters is that they obey my orders as they would the word of God. We are here to help the gender-benders, because inside every transgendered person there is a straight American trying to get out. It's a hardball world, son. We've gotta keep our heads until this I'm-female-if-I-think-I'm-female craze blows over.

hai sperm