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Time too see who JN wants back


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Who should NYJ bring back  

79 members have voted

  1. 1. The NYJ can only bring back one receiver

    • Edwards
      55
    • Holmes
      24


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Speaking of a load of crap. You are certainly entitled to you opinion, but you are one of 13 out of a total of 57 votes cast.

And that proves? Maybe you should look up the word fallacy. The popular opinion or belief certainly doesn't indicate fact as you insinuated in your first post.

Really? So the fact that if Holmes has one more positive UA he is suspend for a entire year does not make him a bigger liability to the Jets organization? :rolleyes:

hmmmm. Holmes getting suspended for year vs. 2-3 teammates getting injured or killed in a car accident. Yeah, I'll take the Holmes suspension :rolleyes:

I see facts coming from both sides that show both guys are great players. It's not like one is miles ahead of the other. Some people are being quite extreme in their opinions here. They both are valuable for slightly different reasons. Our Priority list should be as follows IMO:

Harris

Holmes

Edwards

Cromartie

B. Smith

If we can sign Holmes to a longterm contract I feel it will be worth it, even if we have to sacrifice Smith and Cro. It will ensure the continued development with Sanchez and Holmes, which will only get better. If we can give Harris and Holmes longterm contract, maybe give BE a one year, then work a longterm deal for him next off season.

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For some reason I just dont trust Holmes...Not that I know him but I can see him causing contriversy for whoever signs him to that big contract. BE seems like he is a company man these days. more mature.

Wait, let me get this straight, Braylon Edwards had a DUI in SEPTEMBER and he's the mature one? Shouldn't he have matured after Donte Stallworth KILLED SOMEBODY? Where do you get the idea that he's matured?

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Edwards being a playmaker and making some big catches DOES NOT MAKE HIM A BETTER PLAYMAKER THAN HOLMES. Period. I find it hard to believe that you guys watched all the games and feel this way. He had a very nice year and in 16 games barely eclipsed Holmes numbers for 12. Last year (and the year before) he dropped the ball with insane regularity and the very posters that want to sign him at all costs now wanted to crucify him and replace him with Coles last.

Holmes is better. It comes down to the money, the years and the terms. I will happily take either or both. I'd be concerned if they let both walk. Edwards seems to have bought into being "a Jet" more than Holmes has. If that makes you guys want to sign him, good. That's what fans should do, root for their guys. OTOH, the front office should sign the one that is the best value and at equal dollars I think it's Holmes.

Why is Holmes better exactly? Braylon has the better career stats, even while playing with significantly worse QBs and offensive coaches. The Steelers gave us Holmes, and usually when the Steelers give us someone they are ripping us off. Meanwhile Mangini gave us Sanchez and Braylon. Usually when Mangini makes a deal, the other team wins.

Holmes is so overrated it is ridiculous. Do you Holmes fanboys actually look up his stats? I know for sure you never watched him play on the Steelers, because that wouldn't convince you he is awesome. He never really did much there. He did get the SB win, but in that case we can get that old GB kick returner out of retirement and pay him a boat load of money, even though that didn't work either.

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Whats worse...being dumped by the Steelers for Mike Wallace or being dumped by the Browns for Chansi Stuckey?

Massoquoi is their #1 WR actually. Stuckey is just there.

Wallace had a better year last year than Holmes has ever had in his career. I'd say he more than replaced him.

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Why is Holmes better exactly? Braylon has the better career stats, even while playing with significantly worse QBs and offensive coaches. The Steelers gave us Holmes, and usually when the Steelers give us someone they are ripping us off. Meanwhile Mangini gave us Sanchez and Braylon. Usually when Mangini makes a deal, the other team wins.

Holmes is so overrated it is ridiculous. Do you Holmes fanboys actually look up his stats? I know for sure you never watched him play on the Steelers, because that wouldn't convince you he is awesome. He never really did much there. He did get the SB win, but in that case we can get that old GB kick returner out of retirement and pay him a boat load of money, even though that didn't work either.

While I'm not sure I would go quite this far with it, I do agree to an extent. The fact is that Holmes had a fantastic Super Bowl game for the Steelers with an amazing game-winning TD, and that is what started the hype machine in full force. Before that nobody knew Holmes as anything but the newest guy who was #2 to Hines Ward, and without that game I'm not sure if that thinking ever would have changed. I do think he's a very good WR, I just think the hype from that game has blown it out of proportion. Frankly I like both guys a lot, but I wouldn't put either amongst the top 5-10 elite WRs in the league.

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While I'm not sure I would go quite this far with it, I do agree to an extent. The fact is that Holmes had a fantastic Super Bowl game for the Steelers with an amazing game-winning TD, and that is what started the hype machine in full force. Before that nobody knew Holmes as anything but the newest guy who was #2 to Hines Ward, and without that game I'm not sure if that thinking ever would have changed. I do think he's a very good WR, I just think the hype from that game has blown it out of proportion. Frankly I like both guys a lot, but I wouldn't put either amongst the top 5-10 elite WRs in the league.

I agree with you, but I think of the two, Braylon is the one that has the potential to be a top 5 guy, and in fact had one year where he was indeed a top guy in the league (top 3 even). Will he ever replicate that year again? I don't know, but at his age, and with his work ethic and team mentality, he probably can if things fall right. Also, even if he doesn't, he's good for at least 3 TDs a year where he makes the block that springs an RB or another player on a run or screen.

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Why is Holmes better exactly? Braylon has the better career stats, even while playing with significantly worse QBs and offensive coaches. The Steelers gave us Holmes, and usually when the Steelers give us someone they are ripping us off. Meanwhile Mangini gave us Sanchez and Braylon. Usually when Mangini makes a deal, the other team wins.

Holmes is so overrated it is ridiculous. Do you Holmes fanboys actually look up his stats? I know for sure you never watched him play on the Steelers, because that wouldn't convince you he is awesome. He never really did much there. He did get the SB win, but in that case we can get that old GB kick returner out of retirement and pay him a boat load of money, even though that didn't work either.

Holmes had better stats LAST year. More ypg and more receptions pg over his career. Braylon had one incredible season. He also has terrible stats according to the % caught stat over the past 3 years-worst in the NFL. Admittedly much better in 2010 - better than Holmes. Aren't you the guy that claims that almost every ball that isn't caught is a drop? I remember you complaining fiercely about Braylon in 2009. I'd be happy with either, but I think Holmes better fits what this team is trying to do. He gives you a scarier presence with an easier pass. They can run more effective WR screens and short routes. Braylon can put yards and TDs up too, but I think it generally requires a longer pass.

The Steelers are a running team that usually has the lead. I'm not surprised that guys don't put up insane numbers there, like here. I'd say that 80 for 1250 is pretty good though. The Steelers were trying to keep their "clean" reputation and didn't want to dump the rapist. I think Holmes was the fall guy and considering they were only going to have him under contract for 12 more games it wasn't a bad move by them anyway.

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The Steelers gave us Holmes, and usually when the Steelers give us someone they are ripping us off.

Yeah, what a complete rip off! Let's ignore the fact that he won us SEVERAL games this year, virtually by himself. It was a rip off because he's not the best in the league. What did we give up, a 5th round draft pick for him? That's more than worth it, for what he did this year. Anybody who claims Holmes wasn't worth it or is some huge risk, isn't looking at the facts. Edwards is great as well, but Holmes makes the most athletic and difficult catches. Edwards can catch the long ball when it falls right into his hands, but Holmes can jump up, grab the ball even if defended and get his toes just inside the line for the TD. I don't see Edwards making plays like that. He's made some good ones, no doubt, but not nearly as athletic and difficult. Edwards could still face jail time depending on what happens with his DUI, and also he just got into an avoidable car accident 2 nights ago. Edwards seems to frequently lose focus and I feel he's a much bigger liability than Holmes. Both on and off the field. Edwards had a great season, but then had a horrible season where he almost led the league in drops. He had another good season this year, but he doesn't seem consistent. When he's focused he does well, but that's not always the case.

So Holmes smoked pot once, while Edwards, was involved in a DUI fatality accident (in the car, not driving), Got into a fight in Cleveland, got into a DUI himself this year, got into an accident that probably was completely his fault. Dudes, you can wear the green tinted goggles all day long, but Edwards is not the better player OR the less risky of the 2 options off the field. The facts say otherwise. I know Edwards is a lovable guy and a great team player, but so is Holmes. Don't be mad cuz he botched a couple kickoff returns and misjudged one endzone throw. That pales in comparison to Edwards' first year with the Jets as far as blunders go.

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Yeah, what a complete rip off! Let's ignore the fact that he won us SEVERAL games this year, virtually by himself. It was a rip off because he's not the best in the league. What did we give up, a 5th round draft pick for him? That's more than worth it, for what he did this year. Anybody who claims Holmes wasn't worth it or is some huge risk, isn't looking at the facts. Edwards is great as well, but Holmes makes the most athletic and difficult catches. Edwards can catch the long ball when it falls right into his hands, but Holmes can jump up, grab the ball even if defended and get his toes just inside the line for the TD. I don't see Edwards making plays like that. He's made some good ones, no doubt, but not nearly as athletic and difficult. Edwards could still face jail time depending on what happens with his DUI, and also he just got into an avoidable car accident 2 nights ago. Edwards seems to frequently lose focus and I feel he's a much bigger liability than Holmes. Both on and off the field. Edwards had a great season, but then had a horrible season where he almost led the league in drops. He had another good season this year, but he doesn't seem consistent. When he's focused he does well, but that's not always the case.

So Holmes smoked pot once, while Edwards, was involved in a DUI fatality accident (in the car, not driving), Got into a fight in Cleveland, got into a DUI himself this year, got into an accident that probably was completely his fault. Dudes, you can wear the green tinted goggles all day long, but Edwards is not the better player OR the less risky of the 2 options off the field. The facts say otherwise. I know Edwards is a lovable guy and a great team player, but so is Holmes. Don't be mad cuz he botched a couple kickoff returns and misjudged one endzone throw. That pales in comparison to Edwards' first year with the Jets as far as blunders go.

I agree that calling the Holmes deal a rip-off is laughable, but you took it waaaaaaay too far in the other direction. Posts like this is why Holmes get as much of the so-called "criticism" on this board as he does, because some of you are incapable of looking at him objectively. Holmes did not win several games "virtually by himself", that's just completely asinine. Did he have a number of games where he made big plays at the end to help pull off a win? Absolutely, but those two are nowhere close to the same thing. While I won't disagree with you on Edwards' issues at all, trying to dismiss Holmes' issues is laughable. He most definitely is a big risk, you want to know why? If he gets busted one more time, he's gone for a year, and the man has repeatedly stated since returning from his suspension that he has absolutely no intentions of changing his behavior. That's hardly "smoking pot once" as you try to claim. We're not judging human character here, we're talking about their NFL careers, and from a completely objective standpoint, Holmes is unarguably the bigger risk. Edwards has not served a single days suspension and Holmes is publicly admitting to continuing the behavior that can land him a year off. How is this even something anyone can try to debate?

The funny thing is I like Holmes a lot as a player, and I want both him and Edwards back with the Jets, it's just that some people around here have him on this absurd pedestal that I simply can't agree with at all. The fact is that both Holmes and Edwards are deeply flawed as people and players, the difference is Holmes is the only one anyone is trying to paint as infallible. For some reason people are giving him the Chad "He Can Do No Wrong" Pennington treatment around here, and I have absolutely no idea why. Try to minimize his mistakes all you want, but Holmes has dropped more passes in his 12-game Jets career than Edwards has in his 28-game Jets career. That's more mistakes than just a few botched returns.

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Holmes had better stats LAST year. More ypg and more receptions pg over his career. Braylon had one incredible season. He also has terrible stats according to the % caught stat over the past 3 years-worst in the NFL. Admittedly much better in 2010 - better than Holmes. Aren't you the guy that claims that almost every ball that isn't caught is a drop? I remember you complaining fiercely about Braylon in 2009. I'd be happy with either, but I think Holmes better fits what this team is trying to do. He gives you a scarier presence with an easier pass. They can run more effective WR screens and short routes. Braylon can put yards and TDs up too, but I think it generally requires a longer pass.

The Steelers are a running team that usually has the lead. I'm not surprised that guys don't put up insane numbers there, like here. I'd say that 80 for 1250 is pretty good though. The Steelers were trying to keep their "clean" reputation and didn't want to dump the rapist. I think Holmes was the fall guy and considering they were only going to have him under contract for 12 more games it wasn't a bad move by them anyway.

As bad as Braylon was in '09, Holmes was even worse in '10, which is stunning to me because you are right, I got on Braylon for all his drops. Braylon could go back to dropping passes again after getting a contract, although Holmes also could do the same thing and in addition will fumble balls by running into his own blocker's asses.

Braylon is the bigger, more athletic specimen of the two. He can also make the tough inside catches to move the chains, as well as the deep prayer catches like against Houston last year. As someone else pointed out though, the difference is Holmes is being painted as "can do no wrong Pennington WR form 2k11" whereas Braylon doesn't get the same treatment.

I personally think Edwards has the higher potential...he's got the size and is just freakish in terms of speed and strength. He drops easy catches but then makes ridiculously tough catches. Some other guy posted that Edwards is less athletic and can't make spectacular catches, but that's wrong. Edwards is known for the ridiculous highlight reel catches...and then ridiculous drops on easy passes. But Holmes had those drops last year instead, and they were just about as epically bad.

As I posted before, there are plenty of WRs that have matched Holmes best year. Very few can get near Edwards best year however. Every single team in this league has at least one guy that at one point in his career got 1k yards and 8 TDs, or has the potential for it. The best WRs get it or close to it every year. At least the yardage totals. In the current passing league for the NFL where virtually every QB manages 3000+ yards and 16 TDs, somebody on your team should be getting 1k yards and 5 TDs at least.

Everyone can admit Edwards has his problems and hasn't been a top WR in this league most of his career. Yet for Holmes people want to pretend he's a top 5 WR and he had a great year last year. Neither of these two guys can claim to be in the top 10 last year. They don't get there career wise either at this point. If you are drafting WRs, you don't take either of these two even in the top 15.

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Edwards being a playmaker and making some big catches DOES NOT MAKE HIM A BETTER PLAYMAKER THAN HOLMES. Period. I find it hard to believe that you guys watched all the games and feel this way. He had a very nice year and in 16 games barely eclipsed Holmes numbers for 12. Last year (and the year before) he dropped the ball with insane regularity and the very posters that want to sign him at all costs now wanted to crucify him and replace him with Coles last.

Holmes is better. It comes down to the money, the years and the terms. I will happily take either or both. I'd be concerned if they let both walk. Edwards seems to have bought into being "a Jet" more than Holmes has. If that makes you guys want to sign him, good. That's what fans should do, root for their guys. OTOH, the front office should sign the one that is the best value and at equal dollars I think it's Holmes.

how many TD's did each of them have ? is that the ultimate big play ?

You mentioned drops I believe, they seem to be going in different directions in that category.

Sure Santonio makes an acrobatic catch now and then but a TD is a TD no matter how you catch it. The last two years in the playoffs Edwards has stepped it up in a huge way.

ALL this being said there is NOT a huge difference in either direction no matter which player you happen to like they are similar in receiving stats. What sets them apart are the other things they do on the field. Throwing a key block on a big run. Not just going through the motions when your number is not called. And going over the middle to make a big catch when LB's are roaming. This IMO is what tips the scale in Edwards favor.

Does anyone have the stats on first down receptions ? Actully a better stat would be how many 3rd down receptions that moved the chains

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As bad as Braylon was in '09, Holmes was even worse in '10, which is stunning to me because you are right, I got on Braylon for all his drops. Braylon could go back to dropping passes again after getting a contract, although Holmes also could do the same thing and in addition will fumble balls by running into his own blocker's asses.

Braylon is the bigger, more athletic specimen of the two. He can also make the tough inside catches to move the chains, as well as the deep prayer catches like against Houston last year. As someone else pointed out though, the difference is Holmes is being painted as "can do no wrong Pennington WR form 2k11" whereas Braylon doesn't get the same treatment.

I personally think Edwards has the higher potential...he's got the size and is just freakish in terms of speed and strength. He drops easy catches but then makes ridiculously tough catches. Some other guy posted that Edwards is less athletic and can't make spectacular catches, but that's wrong. Edwards is known for the ridiculous highlight reel catches...and then ridiculous drops on easy passes. But Holmes had those drops last year instead, and they were just about as epically bad.

As I posted before, there are plenty of WRs that have matched Holmes best year. Very few can get near Edwards best year however. Every single team in this league has at least one guy that at one point in his career got 1k yards and 8 TDs, or has the potential for it. The best WRs get it or close to it every year. At least the yardage totals. In the current passing league for the NFL where virtually every QB manages 3000+ yards and 16 TDs, somebody on your team should be getting 1k yards and 5 TDs at least.

Everyone can admit Edwards has his problems and hasn't been a top WR in this league most of his career. Yet for Holmes people want to pretend he's a top 5 WR and he had a great year last year. Neither of these two guys can claim to be in the top 10 last year. They don't get there career wise either at this point. If you are drafting WRs, you don't take either of these two even in the top 15.

nice post !

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As bad as Braylon was in '09, Holmes was even worse in '10, which is stunning to me because you are right, I got on Braylon for all his drops. Braylon could go back to dropping passes again after getting a contract, although Holmes also could do the same thing and in addition will fumble balls by running into his own blocker's asses.

Braylon is the bigger, more athletic specimen of the two. He can also make the tough inside catches to move the chains, as well as the deep prayer catches like against Houston last year. As someone else pointed out though, the difference is Holmes is being painted as "can do no wrong Pennington WR form 2k11" whereas Braylon doesn't get the same treatment.

I personally think Edwards has the higher potential...he's got the size and is just freakish in terms of speed and strength. He drops easy catches but then makes ridiculously tough catches. Some other guy posted that Edwards is less athletic and can't make spectacular catches, but that's wrong. Edwards is known for the ridiculous highlight reel catches...and then ridiculous drops on easy passes. But Holmes had those drops last year instead, and they were just about as epically bad.

As I posted before, there are plenty of WRs that have matched Holmes best year. Very few can get near Edwards best year however. Every single team in this league has at least one guy that at one point in his career got 1k yards and 8 TDs, or has the potential for it. The best WRs get it or close to it every year. At least the yardage totals. In the current passing league for the NFL where virtually every QB manages 3000+ yards and 16 TDs, somebody on your team should be getting 1k yards and 5 TDs at least.

Everyone can admit Edwards has his problems and hasn't been a top WR in this league most of his career. Yet for Holmes people want to pretend he's a top 5 WR and he had a great year last year. Neither of these two guys can claim to be in the top 10 last year. They don't get there career wise either at this point. If you are drafting WRs, you don't take either of these two even in the top 15.

The reason why neither have ever gone from pretty good to great is because they're mechanics are awful. They're probably never going to improve there either.

Santonio uses his body to catch the football, poor ball security after the catch. Braylon has zero idea on how to come back to a football and cant run a fluid pattern to save his life.

Both obviously have had bad issues with drops as well. I think Holmes is slightly better...both are rockheads too though.

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I agree that calling the Holmes deal a rip-off is laughable, but you took it waaaaaaay too far in the other direction. Posts like this is why Holmes get as much of the so-called "criticism" on this board as he does, because some of you are incapable of looking at him objectively. Holmes did not win several games "virtually by himself", that's just completely asinine. Did he have a number of games where he made big plays at the end to help pull off a win? Absolutely, but those two are nowhere close to the same thing.

I apologize for wording it the way I did. What I meant was that he has made huge plays in the clutch of several games to give us the win, not that he won the entire game himself. I'm not saying BE or Sanchez didn't contribute, because they certainly did, but Sanchez (or BE) didn't make the deek that Santonio made after the catch to win us the Texans game, and had he not done that, there's a good chance we lose that game, since a TD was what we needed to win, not a FG. If Holmes didn't make that ridiculous catch in the Patriots playoff game, we could have very easily been tied at the end and could have lost. Edwards also had a great move for a TD in that game, but that seemed more of defensive blunder on the Patriots part, since Edwards just plowed through TWO corners to get in the endzone. Holmes is a play maker, and one of the best on the team at that. Even Rex has been quoted a few times referring to exactly that, and honestly I'd trust the coach over any fan, regardless of how many games they watched or what polls on this site say. Nobody knows the players and their talents better than the coach who sees them on a daily basis and he's flat out said that Holmes is the best offensive play maker on the team.

He most definitely is a big risk, you want to know why? If he gets busted one more time, he's gone for a year, and the man has repeatedly stated since returning from his suspension that he has absolutely no intentions of changing his behavior. That's hardly "smoking pot once" as you try to claim. Edwards has not served a single days suspension and Holmes is publicly admitting to continuing the behavior that can land him a year off. How is this even something anyone can try to debate?

Compared with drunk driving with team mates in the car, getting into an avoidable car accident at 2 am, getting into fights at clubs and fatality accidents with other drunk drivers; failing a drug test is a much smaller risk. Suspension is not as risky as death / paralysis / manslaughter charge.

Who cares what Holmes has said about changing. People can say whatever they want, but it's the actions that matter. BE said he's trying to change, but I haven't seen any indication of it. He's still doing the same reckless sh*t he did years ago. Holmes, on the other hand, hasn't had a single infraction or disciplinary problem since he joined the Jets besides not turning his ipod off an airplane, and getting yelled at. Big whoop. Now I want to look at this objectively, so what other legal problems has Santonio had over his career? I know he's had a couple arrests for DV and "disorderly conduct" in 2006 but the charges were all dropped. He was arrested for marijuana in 2008, we know that. He was accused of throwing a glass in a bar, but hasn't been convicted or proven. Like seriously, the worst thing Holmes did all season was call out Schotty after the AFC loss, which I have no problem with. Holmes is a talker, but again actions speak louder than words. Regardless, I'm not saying Holmes ISN'T a risk. I'm saying he's far lesser risk than Braylon, who could still serve a suspension or jailtime depending on the DUI compounded with the assault charge from last year. Edwards has not served a suspension YET, but it's irrelevant. The actions are worse and far more risky, to not just himself but his team mates.

Try to minimize his mistakes all you want, but Holmes has dropped more passes in his 12-game Jets career than Edwards has in his 28-game Jets career. That's more mistakes than just a few botched returns.

Say what? Can you please back that stat up? It's hard to find drop stats, but Edwards led the league in 2009 with 16 drops. In 2010 Holmes had less than 7 (I'm looking at the list of top 16 drops for WRs, it doesn't have the ones with less listed). There's no way Holmes had more drops this year than Edwards in both years. Even if you include Holmes from 2009, he only had 6 drops, which added to this year is still less than 16. See you're saying that Holmes supporters are not objectively looking at the evidence, yet you post a blatantly false statement like the one above.

As bad as Braylon was in '09, Holmes was even worse in '10, which is stunning to me because you are right,

I'm calling BS on this, and I haven't even looked up the stats yet. Holmes was WORSE in 2010? WHAT??? You are off your rocker. The reason neither Braylon or Holmes is in the top 10 is because: 1. they are working with a young QB, who's still learning the ropes. 2. They are pretty much two no. 1 receivers. It's not like one is a clear #1 or #2, so they both have a similar amount of targets instead of 1 being the prime target most plays, like most teams with league leading receivers. 3. We are a run first team, for the most part. If Braylon and Santonio both had similar stats, then by that logic, Edwards had a worse year in 2010 as well, but we know that's not true.

Now to post the stats and prove you wrong:

From espn.com NFL receiving stats:

Santonio Holmes 2010: Games played: 12 Catches: 52 Targets: 94 Yards: 746 average: 14.3 TD: 6 Fumbles: 0 Drops: <7

Braylon Edwards 2010: Games played: 16 Catches: 53 Targets:102 Yards: 904 average: 17.1 TD: 7 Fumbles: 1 Drops: <7

Braylon Edwards 2009: Games played: 16 Catches: 45 Targets: 95 Yards: 680 average: 15.1 TD: 4 Fumbles: 1 Drops: 16

So tell me again that BE's 2009 season was better than Holmes in 2010. :lol: Don't forget Braylon was our set #1 receiver that year. I know that Sanchez struggled that year as well, so you can't completely blame Edwards, but the dropped stat is really what isoclates him. Again, people say that Holmes supporters are being irrational yet the ones who say BE is better keep posting false things. Let's dead this whole "Holmes supporters are ignoring stats" crap, because it's totally the opposite! And I still love Braylon, but legally we don't know what's happening with him.

C'MON MAN!!!!

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Say what? Can you please back that stat up? It's hard to find drop stats, but Edwards led the league in 2009 with 16 drops. In 2010 Holmes had less than 7 (I'm looking at the list of top 16 drops for WRs, it doesn't have the ones with less listed). There's no way Holmes had more drops this year than Edwards in both years. Even if you include Holmes from 2009, he only had 6 drops, which added to this year is still less than 16. See you're saying that Holmes supporters are not objectively looking at the evidence, yet you post a blatantly false statement like the one above.

Actually, Edwards' league-leading 16 drops came in 2008 with the Browns. I won't argue that was a god-awfully horrid performance, but again, I was comparing their Jets careers. While I agree drop stats are tough to come by, just for the sake of consistency I'll use the same source for both players for both years.

Here is the link for 2009: http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2010/03/31/drop-percentage-study-part-one/

In the article you can see it specifically noted that Braylon showed a massive improvement dropping only 4 passes on the year. There's no info on which drops came with which team, so for arguments sake we'll credit with Edwards with all of his drops as a Jet.

2010: http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2011/05/23/drop-percentage/

In 2010 Braylon had one of the best drop rates in the league, again dropping 4 passes on the year while Holmes was amongst the worst, dropping 8.

So while I was wrong about Holmes having more, the fact is that in more than twice as many games, Edwards has the same number of drops to his Jets career: 8. And that's with crediting all of Edwards 2009 drops to his time with the Jets, which may very well not have been the case. Edwards has certainly had his issues in the past and his 2008 campaign was horrid, so I wouldn't call him Mr. Sure-Handed, but I just think its a bit disingenuous to use hands as a mark against Edwards and not Holmes.

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Five WHOLE months?!? How could I be so wrong, that's an enormous amount of time. I'm surprised both players weren't retired by the time all was said and done, with that much time going by! It's like an eternity!

Interesting point you bring up though, Edwards DUI was in September. Where was Holmes at that time... anyone remember? Oh yeah, he was off serving a 4-game suspension. But hey that doesn't count because um... apparently Braylon being a dumbass and getting a DUI makes Holmes' failed drug tests not count anymore? Sorry, that's not the way to world works. But yeah, Edwards is Satan incarnate for missing a quarter of football with Holmes is a saint despite missing 4 games. While I know you'll ignore it, I will just keep repeating the single most important set of facts for you in this entire "king of the dumbasses" debate:

Next NFL Suspension:

Braylon Edwards - First career suspension

Santonio Holmes - See you in a year, dumbass

Forget either of our opinions, the bolded above is the indisputable, undeniable 100% factual truth of the situation. If that bothers you so much, then maybe you should reevaluate your position. I mean think about this for a second, we're no longer even debating the talent of each player, but you are still so incapable of even acknowledging a single fault in the newest player you've decided to put on a pedestal. Do you know how many times you've ignored the same facts over and over again? Every time you've made a broad statement on this debate and I have retorted with facts to counter you, you've literally just deleted that part of my post out of your quote and refused to acknowledge it. Doesn't that say something to you? Granted, I should have given up on you in this debate long ago, and it's partly my fault for being too stubborn to let it go. But hell, it's a message board and I'm bored, and if you're going to insist on continuing to push your opinions as if they are unquestionable facts and then turn a blind eye to actual facts, I'm going to keep calling you out on it.

Donte Stallworth.

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Oh, you got me good there JiF. I bet there's no pictures of Holmes dropping the ball, because he never does it.

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Just to remind everyone, Edwards may have hands problems, but outside of Edwards' horrific 2007, Holmes has been definitely worse. Not sure what those trying to argue in Holmes favor think they're accomplishing by bringing up drops. Let's be honest, it's not exactly a great point to bring up in either players favor. If good hands is your primary concern, you shouldn't want either of these fools back.

Edited by Bleedin Green
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Oh, you got me good there JiF. I bet there's no pictures of Holmes dropping the ball, because he never does it.

I wasnt trying to get you...just thought there would be some lulz...I want both players back.

Its just funny how people have actually started bashing Holmes out of a last resort to feel they've won the argument.

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Hi. I like Holmes. Mainly because while it's wonderful to have a big dude to toss it up to, Sanchez is more Chad Pennington than Vinny. Our O (for now) is going to rely heavily on the run and Sanchez's mobility outside of the pocket which results in more short/timing plays. Santonio, IMO is quicker in and out of his cuts and is more suited for that. He still has the speed to get down field as well. In an ideal world I have both of them, but for our team I prefer Santonio as the smarter/sensible decision, even though I like Braylon better personally.

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I wasnt trying to get you...just thought there would be some lulz...I want both players back.

Its just funny how people have actually started bashing Holmes out of a last resort to feel they've won the argument.

I am actually aware of this given our prior conversations on this topic, I just couldn't help myself, what can I say. I'm bored at work, so what better to do than argue on JN. :-P

Frankly, I want both back but also completely recognize both have done more than enough in their careers (and lives) to warrant plenty of criticism.

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Edwards had way more than 4 drops in his first year with the Jets. I can't view those links at work right now, so I'm going to look into them. The one I found with the 16 drops said CLE/NYJ. Maybe something's mixed up somewhere. It's easy to call the 2008/2009 season the 2009 season, I suppose. I'm gonna look deeper into these stats because I remember way more than 4 drops that year. I wouldn't have been calling him butterfingers for just 4 drops.

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Edwards had way more than 4 drops in his first year with the Jets. I can't view those links at work right now, so I'm going to look into them. The one I found with the 16 drops said CLE/NYJ. Maybe something's mixed up somewhere. It's easy to call the 2008/2009 season the 2009 season, I suppose. I'm gonna look deeper into these stats because I remember way more than 4 drops that year. I wouldn't have been calling him butterfingers for just 4 drops.

I will admit, I did see another source that had his total 2009 drops at 6 (again, both CLE & NYJ combined), but they didn't have any 2010 numbers so that's why I didn't use them. I can try to find it later if you want. While that 4 number may seem low, I know the "drops" definition can vary depending on who you ask and in this case, both the 2009 and 2010 numbers were from the same site and same author, so I figured at least that the determination method would be consistent throughout. That said, either way I've said since last offseason that I felt Edwards 2009 drops were overrated, more to do with backlash from his atrocious 2008 season than how he actually played in 2009, as every drop he had was replayed every day for the next week and another 5 times during the following game. I think it was more about publicity rather than really the volume of drops (not totally undeserved mind you, as some of Edwards' 2009 drops were quite awful, like the one that bounced off of his facemask).

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I hate going over all this bullsh*t because I am not going to change your minds and you haven't come up with anything even close to changing mine. That being said, I can't help but respond!

1. I don't agree that Braylon is the more athletic of the two. He is a great athlete, but as far as being "a natural" he just doesn't seem the part to me. He is almost gawky with the way he changes direction and his hands don't seem natural. He is bigger and certainly fast enough. For the record Holmes is also a body catcher and as Matt points out, they both have some piss poor mechanics. I would have chopped Henry Ellard for this already. Cotchery regressed and these two are still body catching. I actually don't mind body catching under certain circumstances, but not the way these guys do it, which is basically to let the ball get in on them. To some extent the pictures JiF posted show what I mean. Holmes blows catches too, but there are times that Braylon looks like he doesn't know where his hands belong.

2. Serphx may think that Holmes '10 was worse than Braylon's '09, but I don't believe that statistics will back him up. I don't even think it is close. Feel free to look them up. They are out there, but I am not going after them now. Bleeding posted some stats, but I'm pretty sure they aren't the FBO ones because those had Edwards '09 as pretty damned bad and I know full well that serphx has him down for an easy triple or quadruple the 4 quoted.

3. Edwards plays hard and came up big in the playoffs, but IMO he does NOT make the tough catch over the middle. The vast majority of his catches seem to be on the sidelines while Holmes seems to get targeted and do more with those quick slants which will get you killed, but are a QBs easiest throw. This is my observation. If you have any stats to discredit it fine, but I sure don't remember Edwards doing much damage over the middle and certainly not short where the tough yards are.

In closing: I would like them both back. IMO Holmes is worth more. I honestly want the better value and if they cost the same I say that is Holmes. My offseason priority list is to sign one of these two. Whichever is a better bargain. Next a RT - either Woody or Hunter, somebody to keep continuity in case Ducasse Adrien Clarkes us. Resign Harris. If they can't get Harris, just live with Satele, Mauga, Westerman whoever at ILB. Then Cromartie or a reasonable #2 CB. That actually means a #1 CB because that is what we want, we play a ton of man and need somebody that can man up. Next at least 2 safeties. 1 hitter, could be 'dig or Smith. 1 that is an every down guy, resign Pool or better. If they don't get somebody more durable they may need Smith back because I don't think 'dig can play every down. Don't need both before readdressing WR, but at least one is more important than a 3rd (2nd) WR. These guys are fairly cheap so I can see them coming in at a reasonable cap. Then try to resign Shaun Ellis and whichever one of Holmes/Edwards they didn't resign. As camp goes on we see if there is any pass rush from the rookies and the gang of strange FA pickups (Westerman, Cody Brown, Garrett McIntyre-good sack #s in CFL, Brandon Long who had decent sack #s at Michigan State, Brian Toal-he is listed at LB but may be coming as FB). If the linemen suck at rushing the passer consider bringing Pryce back if the LBs suck consider bringing back Taylor. Those two are likely to be sitting on their couches long after everybody else has signed. I also think that they should make every effort to get Turner back.

Edited by #27TheDominator
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