David Harris Signs Long Term Deal

[slats]

Truth, they are super fans and should be submitting their resumes to the Jets when Rex and Tanny are fired for making such stupid decisions. Smash and Visa too. Smash would make a great GM. Visa would make a great DC.

Where did I say it was a stupid decision? You're in such a rush to point out how brilliant Tanny is compared to the local geniuses that you aren't even reading what I wrote.

Jets paid a premium for Harris, there's no denying that. My feeling is that they paid that premium in part to get him to agree to take less than the $10.4?M he had already signed for. That they have an eye on possibly releasing Scott in two years. And that with the relatively short term, they have Harris locked up for his prime.

Not once did I criticize it. Rather, I was trying to figure out and discuss the logic of the deal. Crazy sh*t for a message board, I know.

Let's just get back to it: no, you're ghey.

[ECURB]

The new CBA will lead to deals like this... there is more money available to Vets... period.

[JustInFudge]

Where did I say it was a stupid decision? You're in such a rush to point out how brilliant Tanny is compared to the local geniuses that you aren't even reading what I wrote.

Jets paid a premium for Harris, there's no denying that. My feeling is that they paid that premium in part to get him to agree to take less than the $10.4?M he had already signed for. That they have an eye on possibly releasing Scott in two years. And that with the relatively short term, they have Harris locked up for his prime.

Not once did I criticize it. Rather, I was trying to figure out and discuss the logic of the deal. Crazy sh*t for a message board, I know.

Let's just get back to it: no, you're ghey.

Cool...and not once did I call you out. JF80 did. I was just responding to him calling you, "more than the average fan"...which is laughable in itself, but I digress.

I'm all about the logic of discussing it...but read this thread or the board for that matter...plenty are acting like the Jets are ****ed and clearly know more than our FO...and I just highly doubt that.

Obviously this move was to free up more money now to improve the roster. It seems everyone is worried about the future impact (like always) and I've yet to see any contract Tanny's negotiated come back to haunt us. He's clever and finds ways to move money around and create space. My position, is yes, this contract is a bit of a shocker, but I'm sure the Jets will be just fine.

[rick34125]

win/win for both sides. it's a great deal for a well-deserving player. 5yr/37m averaging 7.4m/yr. harris was patient and played out his rookie contract and mike structured the deal to allow for another move or 2 this year.

jets also send important message to their players. they'll be rewarded for being their kind of player. what a change from the kendall/washington days when the jets were on the hot seat for not taking care of their own.

[Sperm Edwards]

OK, but Ray Lewis isn't what he used to be. So where would you rank Harris among ILB's in the NFL? Certainly he must be in the top 5.

He isn't 20% better than anyone else in the league and that was the point. And that's with the benefit of playing next to an above-average ILB in his own regard in Scott.

[JoeWillie]

Please, I'm not saying that at all and I think you know I'm not that guy.

See my above post. My point is simple, I've been hearing the "math" for years now and how its going to come back and bite us in the a$$...and it never does. The guy finds a way...and I'm confident that this contract didnt cripple us as others are implying.

Maybe I'm just sick of all the sky is falling, what is our FO doing talk. People are seriously coming off as if they could do a better job, and for some reason, I find that hard to believe.

+1.

I've been saying this all along.

The guy knows what he's doing.

The skepticism on this board from many is amazing to me, especially when history indicates otherwise, but hey, some people just like to hear themselves complain.

[Jack Straw]

He isn't 20% better than anyone else in the league and that was the point. And that's with the benefit of playing next to an above-average ILB in his own regard in Scott.

I agree with you that the Jets overpaid for Harris, and that they didn't get enough years on the contract to make it really worthwhile. However, comparing Harris' contract to Patrick Willis' isn't exactly an apples to apples comparison. In the old CBA, as you know, a good % of a teams salary cap was designated for incoming rookies who were being signed to massive contracts. For instance, a rookie like Sam Bradfrod who's making $13 million/year with $50 million guaranteed in the old CBA would now be making $5.5 million annually in the new CBA. That $7.5 million/annual difference is now being redistributed to veterans, which is to be reflected in the Harris deal. Add in a year of inflation since the Willis contract, and the numbers might begin to make more sense. I'm not defending the Harris contract, because I don't think it's a good deal for the Jets. I'm just trying to provide some perspective. Also, comparing the contract to Asomugha isn't really fair because we all know he left a lot of money on the table because he wanted to play under specific conditions.

[Sperm Edwards]

I agree with you that the Jets overpaid for Harris, and that they didn't get enough years on the contract to make it really worthwhile. However, comparing Harris' contract to Patrick Willis' isn't exactly an apples to apples comparison. In the old CBA, as you know, a good % of a teams salary cap was designated for incoming rookies who were being signed to massive contracts. For instance, a rookie like Sam Bradfrod who's making $13 million/year with $50 million guaranteed in the old CBA would now be making $5.5 million annually in the new CBA. That $7.5 million/annual difference is now being redistributed to veterans, which is to be reflected in the Harris deal. Add in a year of inflation since the Willis contract, and the numbers might begin to make more sense. I'm not defending the Harris contract, because I don't think it's a good deal for the Jets. I'm just trying to provide some perspective. Also, comparing the contract to Asomugha isn't really fair because we all know he left a lot of money on the table because he wanted to play under specific conditions.

What year of inflation? The salary cap went down and there was no salary cap last year anyway.

Look, we didn't overpay by double, but we overpaid plenty. To make matters more confusing is the way we now have so many high-priced starters with guaranteed, backloaded deals. Just before we get a little breathing room from them, Sanchez and some others are going to be in need of new or extended mega-contracts.

We don't have the contract breakdowns yet, but it's a safe guess that as things now stand that next year our non-all-pro ILB tandem is going to hit the cap at or almost at $20M and our 2 starting CB's another $20M. That's one season with some $40M of the salary cap taken up by 2 corners and 2 inside linebackers. Then you start adding in $12M for Brick, $8M for Pace, and (we'll see exactly after he restructures this season) around $15-16M for Sanchez. So that's somewhere around $75M for 7 players. Mangold & Moore another $10M, Santonio Holmes probably at least another $8M. What are we up to? $90-95M for 10 players? That leaves us about $30M for the remaining 41. And that's before Tannenbaum's last "splash" or two this off-season.

I don't care about the money itself. It isn't coming from my checking account and it's not like Woody earned it himself in the first place. My concern is solely on the Jets' ability to sign or retain others in case of injuries or poor play or holdouts.

[JoeWillie]

What year of inflation? The salary cap went down and there was no salary cap last year anyway.

Look, we didn't overpay by double, but we overpaid plenty. To make matters more confusing is the way we now have so many high-priced starters with guaranteed, backloaded deals. Just before we get a little breathing room from them, Sanchez and some others are going to be in need of new or extended mega-contracts.

We don't have the contract breakdowns yet, but it's a safe guess that as things now stand that next year our non-all-pro ILB tandem is going to hit the cap at or almost at $20M and our 2 starting CB's another $20M. That's one season with some $40M of the salary cap taken up by 2 corners and 2 inside linebackers. Then you start adding in $12M for Brick, $8M for Pace, and (we'll see exactly after he restructures this season) around $15-16M for Sanchez. So that's somewhere around $75M for 7 players. Mangold & Moore another $10M, Santonio Holmes probably at least another $8M. What are we up to? $90-95M for 10 players? That leaves us about $30M for the remaining 41. And that's before Tannenbaum's last "splash" or two this off-season.

I don't care about the money itself. It isn't coming from my checking account and it's not like Woody earned it himself in the first place. My concern is solely on the Jets' ability to sign or retain others in case of injuries or poor play or holdouts.

You're point is well taken, but he does have the ability to restructure contracts each year, so just because at this point in time our ILB's tie up $20M next year, it doesn't mean it will be $20M at this time next year.

Same with the CB's, same with Sanchez, same with Brick, Mangold, etc...

Haven't we heard many of the same arguments over the past 10 years and hasn't Tannenbaum always managed to navigate the cap pretty well each year since '97?

Am I wrong?

[Sperm Edwards]

You're point is well taken, but he does have the ability to restructure contracts each year, so just because at this point in time our ILB's tie up $20M next year, it doesn't mean it will be $20M at this time next year.

Same with the CB's, same with Sanchez, same with Brick, Mangold, etc...

Haven't we heard many of the same arguments over the past 10 years and hasn't Tannenbaum always managed to navigate the cap pretty well each year since '97?

Am I wrong?

We've never had this many players making this kind of money (relative to the cap limit) before. Even times when we were so far over, a lot of it was phony money with gargantuan option bonuses due to players that were never going to get it in the first place (like Ty Law).

And how are you planning on restructuring David Harris? He's already going to count about $32M over the last 3 years of his deal. Without adding still more seasons that we may not even want, what are you planning on doing -- restructuring so instead of counting ~$11M/year over the last 3 he counts "only" $7M next year and then $13M over the last 2? For David Harris?

[JoeWillie]

We've never had this many players making this kind of money (relative to the cap limit) before.

And how are you planning on restructuring David Harris? He's already going to count about $32M over the last 3 years of his deal. Without adding still more seasons that we may not even want, what are you planning on doing -- restructuring so instead of counting ~$11M/year over the last 3 he counts "only" $7M next year and then $13M over the last 2? For David Harris?

I'm not planning to do anything ... I'm not qualified.

And I'd be willing to bet that neither are you and that's my point.

I'll leave the negotiations for players and the managing of the salary cap and Jets Payroll to the professionals.

They're indepthly educated on the "ins and outs" of the new CBA (certainly much more than you and I), and I'm confident they have a plan for each year, especially when evidence over the past 12 years supports that they know what they're doing.

However, it would be interesting to bump this thread a year from now to see how it all plays out.

But until then, I guess we'll agree to disagree.

[Jack Straw]

We've never had this many players making this kind of money (relative to the cap limit) before. Even times when we were so far over, a lot of it was phony money with gargantuan option bonuses due to players that were never going to get it in the first place (like Ty Law).

And how are you planning on restructuring David Harris? He's already going to count about $32M over the last 3 years of his deal. Without adding still more seasons that we may not even want, what are you planning on doing -- restructuring so instead of counting ~$11M/year over the last 3 he counts "only" $7M next year and then $13M over the last 2? For David Harris?

Fair points. What's unknown at this point is what the salary cap will be in years 2012, 2013, and beyond. If Mike Tannenbaum has information that we do not (perhaps that the cap will go up, say, $30 million by 2013), then perhaps it explains why he's backloading contracts. I'll agree. I don't see why he paid Harris what he did. It seems super high relative to others at his position. I'm trying to rationalize it in my head and I'm having trouble here.

[flgreen]

Fair points. What's unknown at this point is what the salary cap will be in years 2012, 2013, and beyond. If Mike Tannenbaum has information that we do not (perhaps that the cap will go up, say, $30 million by 2013), then perhaps it explains why he's backloading contracts. I'll agree. I don't see why he paid Harris what he did. It seems super high relative to others at his position. I'm trying to rationalize it in my head and I'm having trouble here.

I think I read the other day that the new TV contract is due in 2013. If that's true, that's exactly what he is counting on

[Sperm Edwards]

I'm not planning to do anything ... I'm not qualified.

And I'd be willing to bet that neither are you and that's my point.

I'll leave the negotiations for players and the managing of the salary cap and Jets Payroll to the professionals.

They're indepthly educated on the "ins and outs" of the new CBA (certainly much more than you and I), and I'm confident they have a plan for each year, especially when evidence over the past 12 years supports that they know what they're doing.

However, it would be interesting to bump this thread a year from now to see how it all plays out.

But until then, I guess we'll agree to disagree.

Tannenbaum is smart and exactly who I want to be the Jets GM. That doesn't mean everything he does is smart.

[Barcs]

I agree the contract is a bit high, but Harris is definitely one of the top ILBs in the league and heis critical to our defensive line. I'd think 7-8 mill would be good for him. It's not a big deal, though. He's overpayed by like a million. His value to our defense is priceless, however, and if we lost him we'd be in trouble. I'm glad we retained him. You guys are NOT Tanny and Rex and certainly, don't know even 25% of what they know about this business and working contracts. Please stop saying nonsense acting like he screwed the team, when we already paid Cro 8 mil and Holmes 10. Let it be. This is a good thing.

[Plus One]

I agree the contract is a bit high, but Harris is definitely one of the top ILBs in the league and heis critical to our defensive line. I'd think 7-8 mill would be good for him. It's not a big deal, though. He's overpayed by like a million. His value to our defense is priceless, however, and if we lost him we'd be in trouble. I'm glad we retained him. You guys are NOT Tanny and Rex and certainly, don't know even 25% of what they know about this business and working contracts. Please stop saying nonsense acting like he screwed the team, when we already paid Cro 8 mil and Holmes 10. Let it be. This is a good thing.

I know well over 25% of what they know.

[Sperm Edwards]

I agree the contract is a bit high, but Harris is definitely one of the top ILBs in the league and heis critical to our defensive line. I'd think 7-8 mill would be good for him. It's not a big deal, though. He's overpayed by like a million. His value to our defense is priceless, however, and if we lost him we'd be in trouble. I'm glad we retained him. You guys are NOT Tanny and Rex and certainly, don't know even 25% of what they know about this business and working contracts. Please stop saying nonsense acting like he screwed the team, when we already paid Cro 8 mil and Holmes 10. Let it be. This is a good thing.

Rex is now an expert in working contracts? Rex himself would lol at that.

Also re-read what was posted before you incorrectly simplify and restate others' positions.

Lastly, if Harris was "priceless" then he wouldn't have a price that you think "would be good for him" as any amount would be correct. It's nonsense anyway as someone else would step up in his place. Probably not as good, but the entire defense wouldn't suddenly and completely implode without David Harris. I give Rex more credit than thinking he and the rest of the team would be big zero's without the great David Harris.

He's a very good player, overpaid by about $2M/year on average that for 2012-2014 will seem overpaid $3-4M/year, and we would still have a damn solid defense if or when he gets injured.

Once upon a time we were all convinced that the value Kris Jenkins had to this defense would have been measured in that same "priceless" fashion. He got injured and our defensive rankings both years are better than they've been in a decade. We didn't get better because Jenkins got injured, but between Ryan and the other defensive players we had, no one is that immeasurably valuable except I guess Revis.

[Doggin94it]

We've never had this many players making this kind of money (relative to the cap limit) before. Even times when we were so far over, a lot of it was phony money with gargantuan option bonuses due to players that were never going to get it in the first place (like Ty Law).

And how are you planning on restructuring David Harris? He's already going to count about $32M over the last 3 years of his deal. Without adding still more seasons that we may not even want, what are you planning on doing -- restructuring so instead of counting ~$11M/year over the last 3 he counts "only" $7M next year and then $13M over the last 2? For David Harris?

Sperm - Harris' contract won't be restructured. But odds are that next year are Pace and Scott's last seasons on the team. Yes, we guaranteed their contracts for 2012. But we weren't cutting either next year anyway (would have actually cost us cap space to do so) and in 2013 we can cut both for a combined 13.8M in savings. You're really looking at only 1 year - 2012 - where Harris' and Scott's joint salaries will impact our ability to make moves in any way

Sanchez hasn't yet restructured, meaning his major cap hit is still this year, and he's looking at only 4M in base salary in 2013; if he shows growth this season, I'd expect him to be extended in the offseason and his cap hit dropped significantly from its current 14M in 2012.

[Sperm Edwards]

Sperm - Harris' contract won't be restructured. But odds are that next year are Pace and Scott's last seasons on the team. Yes, we guaranteed their contracts for 2012. But we weren't cutting either next year anyway (would have actually cost us cap space to do so) and in 2013 we can cut both for a combined 13.8M in savings. You're really looking at only 1 year - 2012 - where Harris' and Scott's joint salaries will impact our ability to make moves in any way

Sanchez hasn't yet restructured, meaning his major cap hit is still this year, and he's looking at only 4M in base salary in 2013; if he shows growth this season, I'd expect him to be extended in the offseason and his cap hit dropped significantly from its current 14M in 2012.

2012 doesn't only exist in a bubble. We don't know who (if anyone, and I hope no one) will get injured or drop off in play, who will hold out for more, or who else we'll want to sign or retain. The odds that Pace and Scott will be replaced on the salary cap by minimum or near-minimum salaries is approximately zero.

[The Crusher]

This makes my night!

I never understood why Dolphin fans post on a Jets website.

Please allow new posters 50 posts before you display your terrible sense of humor. Thanx.

[The Crusher]

Thanks for setting us straight.

I'm afraid we just got carriesd away for a minute.

I mean, having watched every down he has lined up for as a professional player and all, we clearly don't know what we're talking about.

I'm glad we have smart folks like you to pull us back in off the ledge.

Keep jumping down the throats of new posters and I will push you off the ledge.

[Bleedin Green]

Keep jumping down the throats of new posters and I will push you off the ledge.

Please, you'd be doing us all a favor. I know we have a lot of posters around here who think they're far more amusing than they really are and can at times just be plain obnoxious (let's be honest, that's most of us), but this guy has taken that to a whole new level. I'm not sure any single poster has ever skyrocketed so high on the overall dislike list in such a short period of time, at least certainly not any Jets fans.

[Sperm Edwards]

Please, you'd be doing us all a favor. I know we have a lot of posters around here who think they're far more amusing than they really are and can at times just be plain obnoxious (let's be honest, that's most of us), but this guy has taken that to a whole new level. I'm not sure any single poster has ever skyrocketed so high on the overall dislike list in such a short period of time, at least certainly not any Jets fans.

Please stop with the personal attacks or I will ban you.

[The Crusher]

Please stop with the personal attacks or I will ban you.

QUIET!! YHPODS

[Bleedin Green]

Please stop with the personal attacks or I will ban you.

Yer stoopid

[Doggin94it]

2012 doesn't only exist in a bubble. We don't know who (if anyone, and I hope no one) will get injured or drop off in play, who will hold out for more, or who else we'll want to sign or retain. The odds that Pace and Scott will be replaced on the salary cap by minimum or near-minimum salaries is approximately zero.

Sure, and if that was our best alternative - have one ILB making a high salary and one at the veteran minimum - then you'd be complaining about signing Harris at any price. Odds are we'll have one ILB making a lot of money (Harris) and another one being paid at some mid-level number or, ideally, playing on a rookie deal. You take the savings and roll it into a pass-rusher to replace Pace, assuming we haven't filled that need with a draft pick

[jason423]

You're point is well taken, but he does have the ability to restructure contracts each year, so just because at this point in time our ILB's tie up $20M next year, it doesn't mean it will be $20M at this time next year.

Same with the CB's, same with Sanchez, same with Brick, Mangold, etc...

Haven't we heard many of the same arguments over the past 10 years and hasn't Tannenbaum always managed to navigate the cap pretty well each year since '97?

Am I wrong?

Its hard to really say. The Jets had to begin to purge the roster because of the cap in 2006, but at the same time the team wasnt any good so it wasnt really that big of a deal and then they shocked everyone with a 10-6 season before falling back to earth in 2007. The CBA deal signed in 2006 basically made the salary cap irrelevant in the short term. The growth was so high compared to any forecasts that teams had millions of dollars to spend every year. The days of teams having to tiptoe the cap line were replaced by a bad situation being 7 million under. Many teams just scrambled to reach the salary floor. The big deals for almost everyone didnt start coming in until 2007 and 2008 so its hard to guess what would have happened.

Remember the Jets got extremely lucky that the uncapped year came when it did. It allowed them to keep key free agents at low cost prices because they were restricted in the uncapped era. The Jets actually operated about 6 million above what would have been the 2010 salary cap, with a huge portion of it being dead money attributed to Kerry Rhodes and Alan Faneca. The uncapped season was also a get out of jail free card as they dumped nearly 9 million in dead money that normally would have counted in 2011 back into 2010. If not for the uncapped season the Jets would, at the very least, be dealing with Vernon Gholston and Kerry Rhodes still flopping around on the roster and taking up over 10 million in cap space. Throw in Woody and Jenks and you are talking 13 million in additional salary on this years cap. Not that the Jets could have predicted a rollback of the cap either but they probably would not be looking at the type of offseason they just had.

I have faith that what they do will work, its just very different than what most teams do. The Jets have become market setters at various positions which the players love but the other teams hate.

[JoeWillie]

Its hard to really say. The Jets had to begin to purge the roster because of the cap in 2006, but at the same time the team wasnt any good so it wasnt really that big of a deal and then they shocked everyone with a 10-6 season before falling back to earth in 2007. The CBA deal signed in 2006 basically made the salary cap irrelevant in the short term. The growth was so high compared to any forecasts that teams had millions of dollars to spend every year. The days of teams having to tiptoe the cap line were replaced by a bad situation being 7 million under. Many teams just scrambled to reach the salary floor. The big deals for almost everyone didnt start coming in until 2007 and 2008 so its hard to guess what would have happened.

Remember the Jets got extremely lucky that the uncapped year came when it did. It allowed them to keep key free agents at low cost prices because they were restricted in the uncapped era. The Jets actually operated about 6 million above what would have been the 2010 salary cap, with a huge portion of it being dead money attributed to Kerry Rhodes and Alan Faneca. The uncapped season was also a get out of jail free card as they dumped nearly 9 million in dead money that normally would have counted in 2011 back into 2010. If not for the uncapped season the Jets would, at the very least, be dealing with Vernon Gholston and Kerry Rhodes still flopping around on the roster and taking up over 10 million in cap space. Throw in Woody and Jenks and you are talking 13 million in additional salary on this years cap. Not that the Jets could have predicted a rollback of the cap either but they probably would not be looking at the type of offseason they just had.

I have faith that what they do will work, its just very different than what most teams do. The Jets have become market setters at various positions which the players love but the other teams hate.

Civil, well though out, educational post.

I don't necessarily agree with ALL of it, but most of it provides some good information that I was not aware of.

I appreciate the respectful response.

Unfortunately, they've become fewer and farther between on this board.

Thanks, Jason.

[Barcs]

Lastly, if Harris was "priceless" then he wouldn't have a price that you think "would be good for him" as any amount would be correct. It's nonsense anyway as someone else would step up in his place. Probably not as good, but the entire defense wouldn't suddenly and completely implode without David Harris. I give Rex more credit than thinking he and the rest of the team would be big zero's without the great David Harris.

Priceless doesn't mean he'd sign at any price. It means his value to the team is much more important than the money. He's an important cog in the wheel, a bit overpaid now, but if anyone deserves it, he does.

Once upon a time we were all convinced that the value Kris Jenkins had to this defense would have been measured in that same "priceless" fashion. He got injured and our defensive rankings both years are better than they've been in a decade. We didn't get better because Jenkins got injured, but between Ryan and the other defensive players we had, no one is that immeasurably valuable except I guess Revis.

Kris Jenkins got injured, though. You can't say the Jets wouldn't have been better with him in, because they definitely would have. Just because they did good without him, doesn't mean they couldn't have done better. Jenkins playing all of 2010 = Superbowl.

[Sperm Edwards]

Priceless doesn't mean he'd sign at any price. It means his value to the team is much more important than the money. He's an important cog in the wheel, a bit overpaid now, but if anyone deserves it, he does.

Kris Jenkins got injured, though. You can't say the Jets wouldn't have been better with him in, because they definitely would have. Just because they did good without him, doesn't mean they couldn't have done better. Jenkins playing all of 2010 = Superbowl.

Maybe yes, maybe no. The reality is that we got as close as we've come in my lifetime without him.

If Harris gets injured again we'll see if the Jets defense suddenly crumbles.

And in the free agency era every player's value has a price. He is not worth $9M per season no matter how much people struggle to rationalize it.