Black Monday

[villain_the_foe]

This weekend will be a key indicator for the launch of QE3 by tuesday or the markets will be in some sh*t. I expect Bernanke to possibly take some action here after this week of blood shed in the markets. Anyone in or following the market knows that we seen red all across the board. I guess we'll see if this was the catalyst for the money printing to start (or quantitative easing, sorry) because if its not.....

Black Monday may be upon us. I think when the market opens up in the next 48 hrs, we may just see some real historic sh*t. The reason why I say this is because S&P waited until 9pm friday night to issue the downgrade AFTER the markets closed. Im alot of things, but one thing im not is stupid. The markets have the potential to be a f'ing mess next week. And even if not next week, by years end it'll be clear of the economic situation once Europe begins to show signs of failure.

For the people screaming bubble in the metals department, I think we're about to put that to the test in the next 48 hours and onward. However, to be fair I am looking for a possible major dip in the metals given the CME/ future's market and their notorious hikes on margin requirements which would forcefully trigger a spike in selling volume as well as a sell off in the metals ETF's if in fact we do have a market problem. So Im holding cash at the moment just in case so I can buy the f'ing dip....but I think by years end metals are going to look like the good decision and at the same time this market will be exposed for what it really is. And for the people still in the markets, "put" options may be a beautiful thing right about now. lol.

P.S. dont be fooled by the possible rally, all dead cats bounce.

[NYJets90]

Like I said before, don't be surprised if trading is halted early Monday afternoon. This will be ugly.

[serphnx]

The funny thing is corporate profits are still at an all time high and these corps are sitting on $1.5T in cash. This sell off has been purely fear driven.

[Larz]

is AA+ that much worse than AAA ?

this seems like more fear mongering by the money people to justify screwing us with higher interest rates

[JetsFanInDenver]

When UK's AAA rating was downgraded the British Pound lost lot of ground to other currencies. The UK markets went down about 2%. For like a couple of hours. And after that things were back to normal. The currency climbed up and so did the markets.

Today the same British Pound has increased in 10 to 15 % in value against the USD. And the British markets are higher today from levels when the rating was downgraded.

Lets face it, in a normal world we should have lost this AAA rating 4-5 years ago. And the smart money knows that. And this is already priced in the currency which has been devalued over the last decade.

So i will be a contrarian here and say this has little to no impact. And whatever impact will not be long lasting.

[WWWWombat]

When UK's AAA rating was downgraded the British Pound lost lot of ground to other currencies. The UK markets went down about 2%. For like a couple of hours. And after that things were back to normal. The currency climbed up and so did the markets.

Today the same British Pound has increased in 10 to 15 % in value against the USD. And the British markets are higher today from levels when the rating was downgraded.

Lets face it, in a normal world we should have lost this AAA rating 4-5 years ago. And the smart money knows that. And this is already priced in the currency which has been devalued over the last decade.

So i will be a contrarian here and say this has little to no impact. And whatever impact will not be long lasting.

I agree.

[slowmoe57]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4hfdaC7eL4

[madmikeisback]

The rating agencies are incompetent jokes. Anyone that takes them seriously is clueless. Maybe the government should pay them for their rating like the banks did to give their garbage CDO's AA scores. The idea that incompetents like that could have that kind of power over the economy is pretty damn infuriating.

The idea that they are worried about a default when the market has priced 10 year treasury rates at 2.5% is laughable.

BTW this is all you need to know about S&P:

http://www.cfo.com/article.cfm/12295579?f=related

[villain_the_foe]

The funny thing is corporate profits are still at an all time high and these corps are sitting on $1.5T in cash. This sell off has been purely fear driven.

In a way I can agree. The problem that I see is that corporate profits are onlly at an all time high because QE and Stimulus have the thrown in the system to mask the recklessness by these same companies. So because of the QE/Stimulus thes corporations dont have to change their business approach because they're being bailed out because their "too big to fail".

Its a mask to blind us from whats really happening which is theft because inflation of the money supply dilutes everyone's cash to maintain their reckless money spending, bonuses and business practices.

It may solely look like its fear driven now....because we've only dealt with this for a week. However, we both know that we can continue on the same road that we're on. Something must give.

[villain_the_foe]

The rating agencies are incompetent jokes. Anyone that takes them seriously is clueless. Maybe the government should pay them for their rating like the banks did to give their garbage CDO's AA scores. The idea that incompetents like that could have that kind of power over the economy is pretty damn infuriating.

The idea that they are worried about a default when the market has priced 10 year treasury rates at 2.5% is laughable.

BTW this is all you need to know about S&P:

http://www.cfo.com/article.cfm/12295579?f=related

That statement I do agree with. But not taking them seriously isnt the point here, what the down grade means when it comes to borrowing money from other countries at an higher interest rate means something. Thats not being clueless, thats seeing the obvious.

[madmikeisback]

That statement I do agree with. But not taking them seriously isnt the point here, what the down grade means when it comes to borrowing money from other countries at an higher interest rate means something. Thats not being clueless, thats seeing the obvious.

That's assuming that this downgrade leads to higher rates. I'm not sure I believe that's whats going to happen. If Moodys and Fitch follow S&P and pension funds have to divest of treasury's that will happen but we aren't there yet.

[villain_the_foe]

That's assuming that this downgrade leads to higher rates. I'm not sure I believe that's whats going to happen. If Moodys and Fitch follow S&P and pension funds have to divest of treasury's that will happen but we aren't there yet.

Thats correct. This did happen just yesterday, however, it only takes the first domino to fall.

[villain_the_foe]

That's assuming that this downgrade leads to higher rates. I'm not sure I believe that's whats going to happen. If Moodys and Fitch follow S&P and pension funds have to divest of treasury's that will happen but we aren't there yet.

Edit.

[Larz]

villian hate to change the subject, but who do you think is behind the 1 Billion dollar short bet against the US losing the AAA rating ? I know a lot of people saw this coming, but you don't risk a billion dollars without inside info, or worse, influence with S&P

[madmikeisback]

Thats correct. This did happen just yesterday, however, it only takes the first domino to fall.

This is a whole bunch of bunk. The debt is not a major issue in 2011. It's a long run issue and was being treated as such until a bunch of crazies in congress invented a crisis by taking the debt ceiling hostage. He's saying that they shouldn't have have raised the debt ceiling and should have made up for the shortfall in cuts which would've been borderline criminal in a time of 9.1% unemployment, JP Morgan says even the cuts in this deal will shave 1.5% off of GDP in 2012d. BTW S&P says nothing about the cuts in the deal beating real or not real. If anything they say more about out political system being unable to respond to anything which is probably the most convincing argument for the downgrade. That being said there was never a danger of a default and the idea that New Zealand bonds are safer than T bills is farcical. Just look at the rates. His argument that the market for T bills is going to crater for some reason sounds like wishful thinking to me.

[Bugg]

This is a whole bunch of bunk. The debt is not a major issue in 2011. It's a long run issue and was being treated as such until a bunch of crazies in congress invented a crisis by taking the debt ceiling hostage. He's saying that they shouldn't have have raised the debt ceiling and should have made up for the shortfall in cuts which would've been borderline criminal in a time of 9.1% unemployment, JP Morgan says even the cuts in this deal will shave 1.5% off of GDP in 2012d. BTW S&P says nothing about the cuts in the deal beating real or not real. If anything they say more about out political system being unable to respond to anything which is probably the most convincing argument for the downgrade. That being said there was never a danger of a default and the idea that New Zealand bonds are safer than T bills is farcical. Just look at the rates. His argument that the market for T bills is going to crater for some reason sounds like wishful thinking to me.

Default is not going to happen. But you cannot continually and habitually borrow 40 cents of every dollar of spending. And borrow it from Red China. Further, without considering the unfunded liabilities that are Medicare and SSI, our national debt now exceeds 100% of GDP for the first time. Keynesian economics is officially dead, except in the White House and at the NY Times opinion page. It has nothing to do with politics. It's math.

[madmikeisback]

Default is not going to happen. But you cannot continually and habitually borrow 40 cents of every dollar of spending. And borrow it from Red China. Further, without considering the unfunded liabilities that are Medicare and SSI, our national debt now exceeds 100% of GDP for the first time. Keynesian economics is officially dead, except in the White House and at the NY Times opinion page. It has nothing to do with politics. It's math.

Medicare is the biggest driver of the long term debt and something is going to have to be done to control costs in health care. I don't think anyone is saying otherwise but Medicare also is more efficient than private insurance and is solvent for something like 15 more years so again, this is a long term problem, not something that had to be done today and it's COMPLETELY caused by health care costs. Social security doesn't add one dollar to the defect and is solvent for 50 years and can pay out at something like 70% for 15 more.

Do you know who owns the majority of our debt? It's not the "red chinese" heh, it's Americans and there is a huge appetite for more. China owns something like 8% of our debt. Look how well Austrian school economics is working out in the UK where their economy is pretty much at a standstill. The idea that you can austerity your way to prosperity defies all logic. This is 1932 Hoovernomics all over again.

[Bugg]

Medicare is the biggest driver of the long term debt and something is going to have to be done to control costs in health care. I don't think anyone is saying otherwise but Medicare also is more efficient than private insurance and is solvent for something like 15 more years so again, this is a long term problem, not something that had to be done today and it's COMPLETELY caused by health care costs. Social security doesn't add one dollar to the defect and is solvent for 50 years and can pay out at something like 70% for 15 more.

Do you know who owns the majority of our debt? It's not the "red chinese" heh, it's Americans and there is a huge appetite for more. China owns something like 8% of our debt. Look how well Austrian school economics is working out in the UK where their economy is pretty much at a standstill. The idea that you can austerity your way to prosperity defies all logic. This is 1932 Hoovernomics all over again.

Hoovernomics was simply what followed writ small. And Roosevelt's New Deal did not solve the problem. Even Henry Morgenthau, Roosevelt's Treasury Secretary, acknowledged privately that the New Deal not only failed but made things worse.

SSI has to be means tested and the age raised. There is no "lock box" it's merely IOUS paid out of general revenues.

Medicare also has to be restrained.

We can either make thse decisions wisely and now, or we can make them in a panic. Which is what the downgrade really is, a warning that so far everyone making the decisions has been unserious.

Again, it is not terribly complicated. No society nor empire nor government has spent itself to prosperity; in fact the opposite is true. As a corollary, empires that try to extend their grip with militaty adeventures and expeditions to far flung lands soon find their very existence in peril.

This was true with Persia, Greece, Babylonia, Rome, France, Spain, Great Britian and the Soviets. America is not exempt from such a collapse, unless we wise up.

[villain_the_foe]

This is a whole bunch of bunk. The debt is not a major issue in 2011. It's a long run issue and was being treated as such until a bunch of crazies in congress invented a crisis by taking the debt ceiling hostage. He's saying that they shouldn't have have raised the debt ceiling and should have made up for the shortfall in cuts which would've been borderline criminal in a time of 9.1% unemployment, JP Morgan says even the cuts in this deal will shave 1.5% off of GDP in 2012d. BTW S&P says nothing about the cuts in the deal beating real or not real. If anything they say more about out political system being unable to respond to anything which is probably the most convincing argument for the downgrade. That being said there was never a danger of a default and the idea that New Zealand bonds are safer than T bills is farcical. Just look at the rates. His argument that the market for T bills is going to crater for some reason sounds like wishful thinking to me.

lol...thats too funny.

The debt isnt a "major issue" though it cant be paid? The reason why were at almost 0% interest rates obviously tells the story here.

I guess it'll be a major issue for you after the fact.

[villain_the_foe]

Default is not going to happen. But you cannot continually and habitually borrow 40 cents of every dollar of spending. And borrow it from Red China. Further, without considering the unfunded liabilities that are Medicare and SSI, our national debt now exceeds 100% of GDP for the first time. Keynesian economics is officially dead, except in the White House and at the NY Times opinion page. It has nothing to do with politics. It's math.

I got a suggestion. How about Congress takes back the power to coin money from the FED and do so without interest and we wouldnt have to EVER borrow from another country to run our own.

Im not disagreeing with you here, I completely agree with what you're saying. As stated in my previous comment, people who are saying that our debt situation isnt "major" is living in a fantasy world. It was major back when it was half of what it is today. Its major because we're not doing what we need to go the "other way". How can that not be major? lol. I think people have gotten used to the word "trillion" and have been desensitized to the actual amount of a trillion.

[madmikeisback]

Hoovernomics was simply what followed writ small. And Roosevelt's New Deal did not solve the problem. Even Henry Morgenthau, Roosevelt's Treasury Secretary, acknowledged privately that the New Deal not only failed but made things worse.

SSI has to be means tested and the age raised. There is no "lock box" it's merely IOUS paid out of general revenues.

Medicare also has to be restrained.

We can either make thse decisions wisely and now, or we can make them in a panic. Which is what the downgrade really is, a warning that so far everyone making the decisions has been unserious.

Again, it is not terribly complicated. No society nore emprie nor government has spent itselfe to prospertiy. in fact the opposite is true. As a corrollary, empires that try to estend their grip with militaty expeditions to far flung lands soon finds it's very existence in peril.

This was true with Persia, Greece, Babylonia, Rome, France, Spain, Great Britian and the Soviets. America is not exempt from such a collapse, unless we wise up.

Nothing should be done to SSI. How many US companies or any companies for that matter are solvent for 50 years? The idea that that's the problem is moronic. I have a ton of ideas to control health care costs but thats a matter of Politics and what your priorities are and it's something that has to be argued by the elected officials.

Proving that the new deal didn't work is pretty much equal to proving that Obama tiny stimulus didn't work. It's impossible because you can't prove a negative and you can't compare those policies to an economy without those policies. It's all guesswork. We do know that the economy contracted in the late 30s as a reaction to FDR cutting spending in response to a more conservative congress. Sound familiar? The idea is for government to pay down debt when the economy is expanding, not when it's on life support.

[madmikeisback]

lol...thats too funny.

The debt isnt a "major issue" though it cant be paid? The reason why were at almost 0% interest rates obviously tells the story here.

I guess it'll be a major issue for you after the fact.

What do you mean by "it can't be paid?" The US government is perfectly capable of servicing this, and much higher levels of debt. In fact it's the height of stupidity not to borrow more at these rates considering the multiplier effect of certain types of government spending. The inflation monster isn't coming any time soon.

[villain_the_foe]

What do you mean by "it can't be paid?" The US government is perfectly capable of servicing this, and much higher levels of debt.

Please explain how Mike. Because the last time I checked it is impossible to pay off all of the debt (im not just talking the national 14 trillion) with the way our money is created. Our money is created with debt attached because there's interest associated with it. We're easily over $60 trillion in debt....and thats not touching derivatives.

How can the principle ever cover the debt when the only money you have in circulation is the principle?

If I gave you a dollar and told you okay now you owe me $1.25 how in the world are you going to service that debt if there's only the $1 principle in circulation? This is why people have been pissed at the Fed. It is a PONZI SCHEME to enslave.

I'll wait for that answer though. And trust me im not doubting you. If you have the answer which is based on our current economic structure I will personally pay for your ticket to washington D.C. lol.

[madmikeisback]

Please explain how Mike. Because the last time I checked it is impossible to pay off all of the debt (im not just talking the national 14 trillion) with the way our money is created. Our money is created with debt attached because there's interest associated with it. We're easily over $60 trillion in debt....and thats not touching derivatives.

How can the principle ever cover the debt when the only money you have in circulation is the principle?

If I gave you a dollar and told you okay now you owe me $1.25 how in the world are you going to service that debt if there's only the $1 principle in circulation? This is why people have been pissed at the Fed. It is a PONZI SCHEME to enslave.

I'll wait for that answer though. And trust me im not doubting you. If you have the answer which is based on our current economic structure I will personally pay for your ticket to washington D.C. lol.

First of all you can't compare a private person to a government. It's apples and oranges. The number that matters is the government's ability to make interest payments as they come due and we are nowhere near not being able to make those payments.

When you said we're 60 trillion in debt I'm assuming you're talking about fiat currency and fractional reserve banking which is never going away. Good thing because abandoning that system would probably make the great depression look like a blip on the radar. It would pretty much bring economic activity and the credit markets to a standstill and would take the economy back to the 1830s. That isn't the answer. The way to solve the problem is obviously to get the economy moving again. If we had 4% unemployment none of this would be an issue at all. So that should be the no's 1 2 and 3 priority of the government in the short term. Then once we're gaining jobs we can argue about how we're going to get health care cost under control.

[villain_the_foe]

First of all you can't compare a private person to a government. It's apples and oranges. The number that matters is the government's ability to make interest payments as they come due and we are nowhere near not being able to make those payments.

When you said we're 60 trillion in debt I'm assuming you're talking about fiat currency and fractional reserve banking which is never going away. Good thing because abandoning that system would probably make the great depression look like a blip on the radar. It would pretty much bring economic activity and the credit markets to a standstill and would take the economy back to the 1830s. That isn't the answer. The way to solve the problem is obviously to get the economy moving again. If we had 4% unemployment none of this would be an issue at all. So that should be the no's 1 2 and 3 priority of the government in the short term. Then once we're gaining jobs we can argue about how we're going to get health care cost under control.

Yeah, thats what I thought. Come back to me when you have that solution. All you presented was a scenario of "kicking the can down the road" which is what got us in this mess in the first place.

And you're right, you cant compare a person to a government. I try my best to get that paper out of my hands as fast as possible and i deal with real money.

Like I said, it'll only be major to you after the fact.

[madmikeisback]

Yeah, thats what I thought. Come back to me when you have that solution. All you presented was a scenario of "kicking the can down the road" which is what got us in this mess in the first place.

And you want to "kick" 9.1% unemployment and a dead economy down the road. Growth is the only answer and it will create the revenue to pay off the debt.

[villain_the_foe]

And you want to "kick" 9.1% unemployment and a dead economy down the road. Growth is the only answer.

And it takes a person that kicks the can down the road to think that growth is infinite. Not when its built on a ponzi scheme.

Keep wishing upon that star bro.

[madmikeisback]

And it takes a person that kicks the can down the road to think that growth is infinite. Not when its built on a ponzi scheme.

Keep wishing upon that star bro.

I think there is some cognitive dissonance going on here. We're going not going to "end the fed" and Ron Paul isn't getting elected president. You didn't respond to the real effects what you're proposing would do to the economy. It would end the country as we know it.

If you take a look at what the makeup of the future debt is (that 60 trillion) , it's basically ALL future health care costs and I'm all for doing something about that but in the near term government spending has a proven multiplier effect on the economy. It's Macro 101. Do you realize how much revenue we lose because of these crazy unemployment rates NTM dumb military spending, government waste and the tax code.

[villain_the_foe]

I think there is some cognitive dissonance going on here. We're going not going to "end the fed" and Ron Paul isn't getting elected president. You didn't respond to the real effects what you're proposing would do to the economy.

If you take a look at what the makeup of the debt is, it's basically ALL health care costs and I'm all for doing something about that but in the near term government spending has a proven multiplier effect on the economy. It's Macro 101. Do you realize how much revenue we lose because of these crazy unemployment rates NTM dumb military spending, government waste and the tax code.

Are you serious? first off I no longer worry about the FED because I work for myself, and though I like Mr. Paul I dont vote either....never have. I no longer participate in ponzi schemes. You see how consistent I keep it?

What im proposing is to exit the economy ponzi scheme while you still can. Get into real assets with real intrinsic value. I buy Gold and Silver and after my trip to Tennessee this October I'll be getting into farm land as well. I dont do social security or health insurance because I dont believe in "limited liability" nor do I work in the public sector, I deal in private contracts...and in those private contracts I prefer that my labor be traded for precious metals when possible. If not I quickly get that sh*t paper out of my hands by giving it to a bullion dealer.

Cognitive dissonance? End the FED? Ron Paul? You dont know me or my movements to even make such a statement. Im speaking generally. Im not complaining one bit about the FED congress personally. IF anything they're doing me a favor by kicking the can down the road. Im able to stack more metals, get out of debt given my bone headed decisions as a teenager/early 20's. I was laid off of my last public sector job years ago. I took my first year of unemployment to understand my environment while the wife held down the fort.

Now I make more money while working less hours, without a need of a manager micromanaging over my shoulder and the IRS taking what I worked for. Me and my wife both work off the books. I dont talk it and not walk it bro.

[madmikeisback]

Are you serious? first off I no longer worry about the FED because I work for myself, and though I like Mr. Paul I dont vote either....never have. I dont participate in ponzi schemes. You see how consistent I keep it?

What im proposing is to exit the economy ponzi scheme while you still can. Get into real assets with real intrinsic value. I buy Gold and Silver and after my trip to Tennessee this October I'll be getting into farm land as well. I dont do social security or health insurance because I dont believe in "limited liability" nor do I work in the public sector, I deal in private contracts...and in those private contracts I prefer that my labor be traded for precious metals when possible. If not I quickly get that sh*t paper out of my hands by giving it to a bullion dealer.

Cognitive dissonance? End the FED? Ron Paul? You dont know me or my movements to even make such a statement. Im speaking generally. Im not complaining one bit about the FED congress personally. IF anything they're doing me a favor by kicking the can down the road. Im able to stack more metals, get out of debt given my bone headed decisions as a teenager/early 20's. I was laid off of my last public sector job years ago. I took my first year of unemployment to understand my environment while the wife held down the fort.

Now I make more money while working less hours, without a need of a manager micromanaging over my shoulder and the IRS taking what I worked for. Me and my wife both work off the books. I dont talk it and not walk it bro.

That sounds like a really paranoid way to go through life. You're pretty much talking about a stone age economic system. Well I work in the private sector and I have no problem paying my taxes whatsoever. I have no problem contributing to the country who's infrastructure investments enable my firm's services to be in demand and in turn me to earn a living. I really hope for your sake that you don't even get sick or hurt or need money when you're old or ever want to get a mortgage or a house or car or anything. Aren't you gonna feel silly if/when nothing you're predicting happens and our economic system remains relatively stable as it has since the industrial revolution?

[WWWWombat]

Default is not going to happen. But you cannot continually and habitually borrow 40 cents of every dollar of spending. And borrow it from Red China. Further, without considering the unfunded liabilities that are Medicare and SSI, our national debt now exceeds 100% of GDP for the first time. Keynesian economics is officially dead, except in the White House and at the NY Times opinion page. It has nothing to do with politics. It's math.

The national debt was over 100% of GDP shortly after WWII.

http://www.treasurydirect.gov/govt/reports/pd/histdebt/histdebt_histo3.htm

http://www.census.gov/statab/hist/HS-32.pdf

[madmikeisback]

The national debt was over 100% of GDP shortly after WWII.

http://www.treasurydirect.gov/govt/reports/pd/histdebt/histdebt_histo3.htm

http://www.census.gov/statab/hist/HS-32.pdf

It's around 80% in germany and their economy is thriving.

[WWWWombat]

Hoovernomics was simply what followed writ small. And Roosevelt's New Deal did not solve the problem. Even Henry Morgenthau, Roosevelt's Treasury Secretary, acknowledged privately that the New Deal not only failed but made things worse.

SSI has to be means tested and the age raised. There is no "lock box" it's merely IOUS paid out of general revenues.

Medicare also has to be restrained.

We can either make thse decisions wisely and now, or we can make them in a panic. Which is what the downgrade really is, a warning that so far everyone making the decisions has been unserious.

Again, it is not terribly complicated. No society nor empire nor government has spent itself to prosperity; in fact the opposite is true. As a corollary, empires that try to extend their grip with militaty adeventures and expeditions to far flung lands soon find their very existence in peril.

This was true with Persia, Greece, Babylonia, Rome, France, Spain, Great Britian and the Soviets. America is not exempt from such a collapse, unless we wise up.

How do you think SSI gets those IOUs? It gets them because politicians are constantly stealing money from the Trust Fund to finance other programs.

And Japan and the US both spent their way out of the Great Depression. And don't repeat that crap about the New Deal failing. The setback of 1937 was due to Roosevelt trying to balance the budget instead of keeping the deficit spending going.

[villain_the_foe]

That sounds like a really paranoid way to go through life. You're pretty much talking about a stone age economic system. Well I work in the private sector and I have no problem paying my taxes whatsoever. I have no problem contributing to the country who's infrastructure investments enable my firm's services to be in demand and in turn me to earn a living. I really hope for your sake that you don't even get sick or hurt or need money when you're old or ever want to get a mortgage or a house or car or anything. Aren't you gonna feel silly if/when nothing you're predicting happens and our economic system remains relatively stable as it has since the industrial revolution?

Call it paranoid all you like. All I know is that when I figured out how not to contract with the government I've been winning ever since. sh*t, If I was what you call "paranoid" back when I was 19 I'd be a paranoid millionaire by now.

You call me paranoid, I say you're sleeping with your eyes open.

Im glad that you have no problem paying taxes, I do. Im glad you have no problem with them inflating your money supply, I dont either because when they dilute your money, my money goes up. Im glad you have no problem contributing to the country the way "they" see fit...im a capitalist, I take responsibility for me and mine, and I'll contribute my money the way "I" see fit, not some third party. As for getting sick, I changed my habits once I was able to re-educate myself. I buy only organic food. I stopped eating mc donald's I purchased a juicer in order to take in my vegetable/fruit nutrients. I deal in holistic medicine etc. I dont worry about getting sick because I take care of my self now. And I bet that if I ever do need to go to the doctor If I put gold in some doctors hand I bet he'll take it.

I take care of me and mine. I dont need government and insurance companies baby sitting me. Im a grown man with my own set of balls. I dont have a drivers license so I dont drive. But I can afford to be driven so I get to where I have to go comfortably.

And as for me feeling "silly", thats just wishful hate on your part. I understand the difference between paper money/income and Gold/Silver/Purchasing power/property/wealth. Im maintaining and adding to my purchasing power. You're dealing in monopoly money thats continuously getting debased. That sounds pretty silly to me.

[madmikeisback]

Call it paranoid all you like. All I know is that when I figured out how not to contract with the government I've been winning ever since. sh*t, If I was what you call "paranoid" back when I was 19 I'd be a paranoid millionaire by now.

You call me paranoid, I say you're sleeping with your eyes open.

Im glad that you have no problem paying taxes, I do. Im glad you have no problem with them inflating your money supply, I dont either because when they dilute your money, my money goes up. Im glad you have no problem contributing to the country the way "they" see fit...im a capitalist, I take responsibility for me and mine, and I'll contribute my money the way "I" see fit, not some third party. As for getting sick, I changed my habits once I was able to re-educate myself. I buy only organic food. I stopped eating mc donald's I purchased a juicer in order to take in my vegetable/fruit nutrients. I deal in holistic medicine etc. I dont worry about getting sick because I take care of my self now. And I bet that if I ever do need to go to the doctor If I put gold in some doctors hand I bet he'll take it.

I take care of me and mine. I dont need government and insurance companies baby sitting me. Im a grown man with my own set of balls. I dont have a drivers license so I dont drive. But I can afford to be driven so I get to where I have to go comfortably.

And as for me feeling "silly", thats just wishful hate on your part. I understand the difference between paper money/income and Gold/Silver/Purchasing power/property/wealth. Im maintaining and adding to my purchasing power. You're dealing in monopoly money thats continuously getting debased. That sounds pretty silly to me.

If i kept my money under my bed it would lose value due to inflation but who the hell does that? An S&P 500 index fund will outperform inflation.

If you enjoy a life when you're living on the outside of civilization, not driving and living off the land like you're saying more power too you. I wouldn't want that life. Also all the organic food in the world won't pay your medical bills if you're in a car accident or something else unforeseen happens to you. It's a risky way to go through life. And if that ever happens to you and you end up in the hospital and can't pay it will be tax payers like me who pay for you.