villain_the_foe Posted August 10, 2011 Author Share Posted August 10, 2011 Oh ok, that's pretty much what I believe but some people don't consider those markets free once there are regulations. Na, you can have a free market without having monopolies. LIke the oil market for example. The moment something is presented that threatens the oil tycoons what happens? We can do without stuff like that. Another thing we can do without are lobby's. Lets be real, lobbyist are nothing more than legal bribes men. Oversight on things like that can keep the market and govt free and healthy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WWWWombat Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 Agreed. Although not all monopolies are bad. In an industry with very high fixed costs, monopoly is actually efficient. The oil industry is not one of those industries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villain_the_foe Posted August 10, 2011 Author Share Posted August 10, 2011 I think everyone believes this. However what exactly that oversight should be is a much harder nut to crack. No it isnt, we can simply look at the things that are killing the market right now and start with those. The problem is we're so far down the road that imo this has to crumble before we can actually present something that free and competitive. Im not saying that I have all the answer, but I'd be damned If I dont have a few. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villain_the_foe Posted August 10, 2011 Author Share Posted August 10, 2011 Agreed. Although not all monopolies are bad. In an industry with very high fixed costs, monopoly is actually efficient. The oil industry is not one of those industries. All monopolies are bad because they restrict outside thought, progression and failure, but most of all, monopolies remove the possibility of something coming along that is simply "better" because it eliminates the very competition which keeps the product value high, the price competitive and the sense of always having to produce in order to stay relevant . Once monopolies get hold they will ALWAYS decay the system. The moment we accept monopolies will be the moment we begin the trend that ends up in what we see today. Monopolies are never good. Industry needs to be free. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryK Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 Our economy is like a ship. For centuries it was the biggest ship around. But a lot of people in washington want nobody in the wheelhouse. They think it'll sink if you try and manage the course every once in a while. Protectionist (I'm using the term straight-up because I just don't care anymore) trade policy is just such a course correction. We need to protect OUR peoples' best interest first..China and a few importing tycoons with 5 employees each can suck it. Companies use savings from corporate taxes to build in Mexico. I'm a consultant and I've *heard* these conversations firsthand. Those companies' owners are asses, but they can't help it -- the competitors down the street are doing the same thing. This is where government needs to step in and help everyone work from the same playbook. I support the same market freedoms anyone else does... Within the framework of "manufacturing is best done here". Free markets are just great..here. When your brother starts making shirts in an old warehouse, tell me what stores they're in. I'll proudly walk past Target & Walmart and pay $30 for one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StraightCash Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 Great response to monopolies villain. There is one case I can think of in which monopolies are good.... And that is in a dynamic, or over time, model of fixed resources. Take water for example... If there were perfect competition, consumers would over consume. The next day, no water left. a monopoly can restrict demand and thus prolong the resources existence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmikeisback Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 No it isnt, we can simply look at the things that are killing the market right now and start with those. The problem is we're so far down the road that imo this has to crumble before we can actually present something that free and competitive. Im not saying that I have all the answer, but I'd be damned If I dont have a few. You really think you can get people to agree on whats killing the market or the economy right now? Despite econ 101, our leaders are clueless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetlag Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 Our economy is like a ship. For centuries it was the biggest ship around. But a lot of people in washington want nobody in the wheelhouse. They think it'll sink if you try and manage the course every once in a while. Protectionist (I'm using the term straight-up because I just don't care anymore) trade policy is just such a course correction. We need to protect OUR peoples' best interest first..China and a few importing tycoons with 5 employees each can suck it. Companies use savings from corporate taxes to build in Mexico. I'm a consultant and I've *heard* these conversations firsthand. Those companies' owners are asses, but they can't help it -- the competitors down the street are doing the same thing. This is where government needs to step in and help everyone work from the same playbook. I support the same market freedoms anyone else does... Within the framework of "manufacturing is best done here". Free markets are just great..here. When your brother starts making shirts in an old warehouse, tell me what stores they're in. I'll proudly walk past Target & Walmart and pay $30 for one. Actually your analogy is completely backwards. If our economy is a ship then the free market is auto-pilot. Except politicians think they can plot courses better than a computer. What happens is they pile human error on top of human error..abracadabra we end up in the weeds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryK Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 Actually your analogy is completely backwards. If our economy is a ship then the free market is auto-pilot. Except politicians think they can plot courses better than a computer. What happens is they pile human error on top of human error..abracadabra we end up in the weeds. I guess that's a difference in opinion we'll have to accept. Many people think free-market-autopilot exists and will produce a favorable future for America. I think China has duped us into this belief whilst they purchase our assets, debt, and land. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JetsFanInDenver Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 Whatever gives everyone the idea that we have free markets ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Padraig Tanninger Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 What's interesting about today is that, while the broad market indexes are down over 3%, the high beta names are actually outperforming. Typically, the opposite would be true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bugg Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 I guess that's a difference in opinion we'll have to accept. Many people think free-market-autopilot exists and will produce a favorable future for America. I think China has duped us into this belief whilst they purchase our assets, debt, and land. Objectively during America's time of greatest economic expansion(post Civil War through the mid-1900s), it had high tariffs and restrictive trade policies. I get all that "comparative advantage".But we have the largest market for consumer goods. We should be able to say to countries that if they want access to this market their trade policies will have to be mutually beneficial, not a one way street. NAFTA and GATT were huge mistakes by both parties. Why do we sign up to get stripped of manufacturing capacity and then get nothing in return? We have over 300 million people; we cannot all deal in bandwidth and securities sales. In fact the only free markets exist in textbooks and the USA. Everyone else is looking out for themselves, and it's past time we did too.Also think it could be sold to Americans that somewhat higher prices were justified because it kept the money here and fellow citizens employed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmikeisback Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 Whatever gives everyone the idea that we have free markets ? We have free markets for gains and socialism for losses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryK Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 Objectively during America's time of greatest economic expansion(post Civil War through the mid-1900s), it had high tariffs and restrictive trade policies. I get all that "comparative advantage".But we have the largest market for consumer goods. We should be able to say to countries that if they want access to this market their trade policies will have to be mutually beneficial, not a one way street. NAFTA and GATT were huge mistakes by both parties. Why do we sign up to get stripped of manufacturing capacity and then get nothing in returrn? We have over 300 million people; we cannot all deal in bandwidth and securities sales. In fact the only free markets exits in textbooks and the USA. Everyone else is looking out for themselves, and it's past time we did too.Also think it could be sold to Americans that somehwta highrer prices were jsutified because it kept the money here and fellow citizens employed. Can't improve on this. Now we just need to figure out how to get both parties to realize it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WWWWombat Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 All monopolies are bad because they restrict outside thought, progression and failure, but most of all, monopolies remove the possibility of something coming along that is simply "better" because it eliminates the very competition which keeps the product value high, the price competitive and the sense of always having to produce in order to stay relevant . Once monopolies get hold they will ALWAYS decay the system. The moment we accept monopolies will be the moment we begin the trend that ends up in what we see today. Monopolies are never good. Industry needs to be free. Most of that is true, but when there is an economy of scale, competition is inefficient and free markets will actually naturally develop monopolies. I don't like monopolies but sometimes, in the short run, they can be more efficient than competition. I think in such cases it would be best for the government to regulate such monopolies while spending money on R&D to create new technologies that may reduce costs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetlag Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 Most of that is true, but when there is an economy of scale, competition is inefficient and free markets will actually naturally develop monopolies. I don't like monopolies but sometimes, in the short run, they can be more efficient than competition. I think in such cases it would be best for the government to regulate such monopolies while spending money on R&D to create new technologies that may reduce costs. Can I get an example? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Padraig Tanninger Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 Can I get an example? I'm going to guess, no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmikeisback Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 Can I get an example? Health care. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WWWWombat Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 Can I get an example? Cable TV, Most Utilities, Satellite Radio Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villain_the_foe Posted August 11, 2011 Author Share Posted August 11, 2011 You really think you can get people to agree on whats killing the market or the economy right now? Despite econ 101, our leaders are clueless. Part of what im saying is that the leaders are the problem too. Im not interested in trying to convince the people who are getting filthy rich off of this that "somethings wrong". Nothings wrong in their eyes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetlag Posted August 12, 2011 Share Posted August 12, 2011 Health care. No. BTW what we have in America is not free market healthcare, it's corporatism and it's giving free markets a terrible name. Cable TV, Most Utilities, Satellite Radio How does Cable TV have a monopoly? Here in NY we have a choice between Cablevision, Verizon, and Direct TV. Utilities, what would be so difficult and terrible about competition, lower costs? Satellite Radio is not a "monopoly" for anything other than there isn't enough of a market for there services. If there was more demand for satellite radio then 2 companies might actually be able to exist. Government regulation is the problem. The government's incentive is naturally for there to be more problems because that is the only way they can push for more funding. Take the education system for example. If our school's were doing awesome and America was #1 in the world, what case do politicians have to push for more funding in education? It's really a$$ backwards. Businesses generate more capital from success, while government does it from failure. That is why government can't get involved in the market. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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