Black Monday

[villain_the_foe]

Max if you read the thread it's been very cordial and interesting. I don't mind him asking if I'm a communist haha. It's not really about politics anyway it's become about Villian's lifestyle.

No worries about it Mike. Max is right. I've been around long enough to see a few cordial conversations get into verbal lashings. I've been part of some.

I tend to fall into these convos given that its my passion to research this stuff, but Max has to keep the order or the lounge is going to start looking like our govenrment lmao! (Sorry, I had to throw that in)

[Maxman]

Max if you read the thread it's been very cordial and interesting. I don't mind him asking if I'm a communist haha. It's not really about politics anyway it's become about Villian's lifestyle.

I agree and that is why I left it open. The track record here is so bad with people fighting in threads like this, that is why we have a short leash with it.

We do have a functional chat room if you guys wanted to talk about this stuff in real time.

[Green Jets & Ham]

Max you are a cool cat, you and I go way back but I have to say you are way wrong on this one.

I mean that with no disrespect. I admire what you have built here but saying you don't censor things and then censoring political talk is hypocritical.

I spent a lot of time on another sports site and can't recall a single problem we ever had in our political forum.

[villain_the_foe]

Max you are a cool cat, you and I go way back but I have to say you are way wrong on this one.

I mean that with no disrespect. I admire what you have built here but saying you don't censor things and then censoring political talk is hypocritical.

I spent a lot of time on another sports site and can't recall a single problem we ever had in our political forum.

He's right, because its his site. Got to respect the mans rules. Max has been f'ing flexible this entire summer with our convos and he's let them go because they didnt get out of control (for the most part)....but he cant be wrong if he makes the rules.

Besides, We should be talking about black monday anyway.

Gold is almost at $1,700 though my friends here at Jetnation tell me that im insane when it comes to gold because it has "bubble" written all over it. Lets talk about Gold's $33 jump and China's market has only been open for 5 hours! Im telling you, I feel that tomorrow is going to be crazy.

[Bugg]

Few things-

I started my career in a government bureaucracy. I deal with them all, state, local and the feds, almost every day.I love this country. The governemnt, I fear.

They all waste trillions upon billions.I hate giving them one more penny than they are owed. And same for my clients.

And I have clients who often fail to turn a profit on a business. But the warnings is always the same. You have to file some kind of tax return even if you lose money. If you never turn a profit no matter what form of business you use at some point the IRS can classify your business as a hobby, disallow all your expenses and simply tax you on what ever revenue you have. And guys who prattle on about the 16th Amendment are asking for trouble.

What is true is that withholding by employers and quarterly tax payments are entirely voluntary. If everyone stopped paying in, the feds would not know whether to crap or wind their watch. But I've seen enough of the fire to recommend no sane person be the moth to that flame.

[villain_the_foe]

Few things-

I started my career in a government bureaucracy. I deal with them all, state, local and the feds, almost every day.I love this country. The governemnt, I fear.

They all waste trillions upon billions.I hate giving them one more penny than they are owed. And same for my clients.

And I have clients who often fail to turn a profit on a business. But the warnings is always the same. You have to file some kind of tax return even if you lose money. If you never turn a profit no matter what form of business you use at some point the IRS can classify your business as a hobby, disallow all your expenses and simply tax you on what ever revenue you have. And guys who prattle on about the 16th Amendment are asking for trouble.

What is true is that withholding by employers and quarterly tax payments are entirely voluntary. If everyone stopped paying in, the feds would not know whether to crap or wind their watch. But I've seen enough of the fire to recommend no sane person be the moth to that flame.

You present a great point.

However, I want to get back on topic before max lays down that jetnation hammer on all of us lol.

[madmikeisback]

Few things-

I started my career in a government bureaucracy. I deal with them all, state, local and the feds, almost every day.I love this country. The governemnt, I fear.

They all waste trillions upon billions.I hate giving them one more penny than they are owed. And same for my clients.

And I have clients who often fail to turn a profit on a business. But the warnings is always the same. You have to file some kind of tax return even if you lose money. If you never turn a profit no matter what form of business you use at some point the IRS can classify your business as a hobby, disallow all your expenses and simply tax you on what ever revenue you have. And guys who prattle on about the 16th Amendment are asking for trouble.

What is true is that withholding by employers and quarterly tax payments are entirely voluntary. If everyone stopped paying in, the feds would not know whether to crap or wind their watch. But I've seen enough of the fire to recommend no sane person be the moth to that flame.

That isn't true. You've giving out bad advice.

[villain_the_foe]

That isn't true. You've giving out bad advice.

He's presenting an opinion, not advice. Though on that particular point I do agree with you. Public business has rules and regulations that it must abide by.

Gold is a couple dollars away from $1,700.

[villain_the_foe]

[Bugg]

That isn't true.

YOu can in fact direct your employer not to withhold. You still are liable for taxes. Now, some (most) employers would probably balk. Many have terms of employment requiring withholding as a policy and won't hire nor you without a filed W4. And if payroll is dumb enough you could claim 99 dependents, which some loony NY Corrections employees tried(and found themselves locked up).But withholding was instituted during World War II and was supposed to be voluntary. There is no reason for withholding other than it makes tax collection very easy. In theory you could laswfully file a quartley or annual statement, though you might be penalized if you didn't pay enough. Again, I sure as hell am not missing a quarterly tax payment, and wouldn't recommend anyone else do so nor should anyone discontinue withholding. But if a mass of people decided to not comply, who knows? People have come to accept withholding and they don't know it's not writtern into law nor in the 16th Amendment. It's like EZpass; after a while who knows what the toll is as long as I can go through the toll plaza. We get divorced from the cost because it becomes regular every day stuff. And then we accept it as a daily reality.

Again, this is theoretical, not practical. If you file a return and pay what you owe in theory whether you pay directly or via withholding doesn't matter. I'm not recommending this. Don't look behind the curtain; you won't like what you see.

[villain_the_foe]

YOu can in fact direct your employer not to withhold. Now, some (most) employers would probably balk. Many have terms of employment requiring withholding as a policy and won't hire nor you without filed W4. And if payroll is dumb enough you could claim 99 dependents, which some loony NY Corrections employees tried(and found themselves locked up).But withholding was instituted during World War II and was supposed to be voluntary. There is no reason for wqithholding othr than it makes tax collection very easy. In theory you could file a quartley or annual statement, thoguh you might be penalized if you didn't pay enough. Again, I sure as hell am not missing a quarterly tax payment, and wouldn't recommend anyone else do so nor should anyone discontinue withholding. But if a mass of people decided to not comply, who knows? People hasve come to accept withholding and they don't know it's not writtern into law. It's like EZpass; after a while who knows what the toll is as long as I can go through the toll plaza. We get divorced from the cost because it becomes regular every day stuff. And then we accept it as a daily reality. Don't look behind the curtain.

Okay, I understand what you mean now.

You can file exemption on the tax form, which I've done before. And instead of having the money taxed before you get your check you can pay your taxes that upcoming tax season.

Is that exemption what you're talking about?

[madmikeisback]

YOu cna in fact direct your employer not to withhold. Now, some (most) employers would probably balk. Many have terms of employment requiring withholding as a policy and won't hire nor you without filed W4. And if payroll is dumb enough you could claim 99 dependents, which some loony NY Corrections employees tried(and found themselves locked up).But withholding was instituted during World War II and was supposed to be voluntary. There is no reason for wqithholding othr than it makes tax collection very easy. In theory you could file a quartley or annual statement, thoguh you might be penalized if you didn't pay enough. Again, I sure as hell am not missing a quarterly tax payment, and wouldn't recommend anyone else do so nor should anyone discontinue withholding. But if a mass of people decided to not comply, who knows? People hasve come to accept withholding and they don't know it's not writtern into law. It's like EZpass; after a while who knows what the toll is as long as I can go through the toll plaza. We get divorced from the cost because it becomes regular every day stuff. And then we accept it as a daily reality. Don't look behind the curtain.

You either have to have tax withheld or make estimated payments. There is no way around that. Doing something like claiming 99 exemptions is tax fraud.

[Bugg]

Okay, I understand what you mean now.

You can file exemption on the tax form, which I've done before. And instead of having the money taxed before you get your check you can pay your taxes that upcoming tax season.

Is that exemption what you're talking about?

Exactly.

[Bugg]

You either have to have tax withheld or make estimated payments. There is no way around that. Doing something like claiming 99 exemptions is tax fraud.

Again New York City accepted a bunch fo W4 claiming 99 dependents and did not spit them back. For years a bunch of jail guards paid almost nothing. And when they were finally caught they claimed as descendants of slaves they were not American citizens, even thought their very oath of office was to uphold the Constitution.

That didn't work. But it should give you an insight again into what a freaking mess government is at every level that such a debacle went on for years and these gusy were doing it in plain sight.

[madmikeisback]

Again New York City accepted a bunch fo W4 claiming 99 dependents and did not spit them back. For years a bunch of jail guards paid almost nothing. And when they were finally caught they claimed as descendants of slaves they were not American citizens, even thought their very oath of office was to uphold the Constitution.

That didn't work. But it should give you an insight again into what a freaking mess government is at every level that such a debacle went on for years and these gusy were doing it in plain sight.

The fact that a clerical error missed it doesn't make it any less fraud. They can't catch everyone right away but they were caught none the less. A lot of our tax system is really based on good faith.

[villain_the_foe]

The fact that a clerical error missed it doesn't make it any less fraud. They can't catch everyone right away but they were caught none the less. A lot of our tax system is really based on good faith.

I've filed exempt on my tax forms myself. You're talking to a person who's actually done it. Its not fraud. You're basically receiving your money and paying the tax during tax seaon. this is what he's talking bout.

Its been years since I did it, but I learned about that when I was in college. Its true...but it isnt tax evasion, the IRS is just allowing you to receive the bill during tax season to pay it yourself instead of the IRS over taxing you and then sending you a check in april as a tax return.

IN IMPORTANT NEWS.....GOLD JUST ECLIPSED THE $1,700 MARK YET THE CHINESE MARKET HAS ONLY BEEN OPEN FOR 5 1/2 HOURS LMAO.

(and percentage wise, silver is outperforming gold!)

www.providentmetals.com

[Bugg]

The fact that a clerical error missed it doesn't make it any less fraud. They can't catch everyone right away but they were caught none the less. A lot of our tax system is really based on good faith.

It only became a fraud when they refused to pay up and made an insane defense for noncompliance. Withholding gives the governmnet an interest free loan every year. As long as you in fact pay your tax bill and any penalties you can in good faith have some leeway on your W4, though claiming 99 and trying not to pay at all is ..ill-advised.

[madmikeisback]

It only became a fraud when they refused to pay up and made an insane defense for noncompliance. Withholding gives the governmnet an interest free loan every year. As long as you in fact pay your tax bill and any penalties you can in good faith have some leeway on your W4, though claiming 99 and trying not to pay at all is ..ill-advised.

It's a fraud the second you write 99 on the paper sign it and send it in but thats just semantics.

[WWWWombat]

It only became a fraud when they refused to pay up and made an insane defense for noncompliance. Withholding gives the governmnet an interest free loan every year. As long as you in fact pay your tax bill and any penalties you can in good faith have some leeway on your W4, though claiming 99 and trying not to pay at all is ..ill-advised.

That's the key part there. I hear penalties can be pretty stiff if you're way too low on the amount you have withheld. I didn't know wtf withholding was when I filled out the forms for my first (and only) job. I remember I just put down a number. I don't think it matters though because I made less than $2k this last year (I worked for the Census) so I'm probably gonna get a check from the government.

[serphnx]

That's the key part there. I hear penalties can be pretty stiff if you're way too low on the amount you have withheld. I didn't know wtf withholding was when I filled out the forms for my first (and only) job. I remember I just put down a number. I don't think it matters though because I made less than $2k this last year (I worked for the Census) so I'm probably gonna get a check from the government.

The penalties are actually kind of small. I've seen a lot of tax returns for multi-millionaires who underestimate by about $10mm, iirc the penalty was something like $100-300k or so.

[StraightCash]

Villain holy sh*t, I love your conviction but you are in your own world here.

[WWWWombat]

The penalties are actually kind of small. I've seen a lot of tax returns for multi-millionaires who underestimate by about $10mm, iirc the penalty was something like $100-300k or so.

Oic.

[bitonti]

if you buy gold and never sell it you are a collector not an investor

[Plus One]

VIX at 40, time to double down.

[serphnx]

VIX at 40, time to double down.

What are you looking to go long on?

Do you see this as a whipsaw?

[Plus One]

What are you looking to go long on?

Do you see this as a whipsaw?

I'm using SOXL. I like to go to highly leveraged technology ETFs when the VIX is spiking.

Not sure how long I'll hold it, but there is typically a violent upward move in this thing when the panic selling subsides.

[serphnx]

I'm using SOXL. I like to go to highly leveraged technology ETFs when the VIX is spiking.

Not sure how long I'll hold it, but there is typically a violent upward move in this thing when the panic selling subsides.

The panic selling is kind of funny to me, it's obviously way oversold and pure panic selling but that doesn't mean it can't get even more oversold.

I believe the market is waiting on the QE3 announcement or just some type of direction.

If the S&P closes around where it is now on Friday that to me indicates the Bear market. If we start rallying and finish above current levels, especially if it is appreciable, I believe the panic sell off could be a whipsaw and we will continue to make new highs as the primary trend would still be a bull market.

I am hesitant to commit more capital as a result right now. How tight are your stops?

[madmikeisback]

Here's a great blogpost about what an incompetent, corrupt joke S&P is:

http://economicsofcontempt.blogspot.com/2011/08/on-s-downgrades-and-idiots.html

[Plus One]

The panic selling is kind of funny to me, it's obviously way oversold and pure panic selling but that doesn't mean it can't get even more oversold.

I believe the market is waiting on the QE3 announcement or just some type of direction.

If the S&P closes around where it is now on Friday that to me indicates the Bear market. If we start rallying and finish above current levels, especially if it is appreciable, I believe the panic sell off could be a whipsaw and we will continue to make new highs as the primary trend would still be a bull market.

I am hesitant to commit more capital as a result right now. How tight are your stops?

It can definitely get more oversold, as I've been saying all along - panic begets more panic.

Bull market, Bear market...I don't try to make those calls. Frankly, I couldn't care less.

I just look for indications that things are overdone one way or the other, then I try to play the reversion to the mean.

I use the VIX and RSI and a few other indicators to identify oversold or overbought conditions. Then buy (or, sell if overbought) the most volatile, highest beta, highest leveraged stocks I can find.

[Bugg]

Here's a great blogpost about what an incompetent, corrupt joke S&P is:

http://economicsofcontempt.blogspot.com/2011/08/on-s-downgrades-and-idiots.html

S&P may be a collection of prissy douchebags.

But that doesn't mean again borrowing 40 cents of every dollar forever is a good idea. In fact it's a vey bad idea. It was bad when Bush did it, is as bad now under Obama.

[villain_the_foe]

Here's a great blogpost about what an incompetent, corrupt joke S&P is:

http://economicsofcontempt.blogspot.com/2011/08/on-s-downgrades-and-idiots.html

So is fitch and moody's, that doesnt mean that their ratings dont affect the markets. (Though I 100% agree with you. Dont get me wrong)

And S&P is only incompetent because this should have been done along time ago. We all know that their rating system means nothing, especially when they missed the 08 collapse as well as fitch and moody's.

We ALL KNOW that this is nothing more than the "big guys" making money by knowing how to swing the markets.

To prove that George Soros got out all of his hedge funds and went all cash two weeks ago. Last weeks blood bath was hedge funds getting their a$$ handed to them. Talk about insider trading. I bet he knew this sh*t was coming. S&P spoke to the govt before they downgraded and I bet all of the people in govt spoke to their little buddies and they hedged themselves against what they KNEW was coming....but let the citizens in the market take the nose dive.

Thats what happens when you trust the casino though KNOWING the house always win.

[madmikeisback]

S&P may be a collection of prissy douchebags.

But that doesn't mean again borrowing 40 cents of every dollar forever is a good idea. In fact it's a vey bad idea. It was bad when Bush did it, is as bad now under Obama.

In the long term it is. In the short term, the bad economy and unemployment is adding more to the debt than government spending is.

[villain_the_foe]

In the long term it is. In the short term, the bad economy and unemployment is adding more to the debt than government spending is.

The bad economy and unemployment is based on (bad) government spending and over regulation of the job sector. They're hand in hand.

[StraightCash]

To the resident finance pros... Do I need to change banks asap? B of a in free fall.

[madmikeisback]

To the resident finance pros... Do I need to change banks asap? B of a in free fall.

No.