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Black Monday


villain_the_foe

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the market takes a dump and it's 9 pages of gloom and doom

the market goes up by roughly the amount it went down and there's 1 post since Monday night

black monday leads to sunny tuesday

but nary a blurb from all the doom sayers

it's called volatility you bozos

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You're selling me on silver. With its currency use and greater abundance, wouldn't silver be the more useful currency for the masses?

if V-d-f's world view comes to pass you are better off investing in shotguns than silver. Bottled water will be king.

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the market takes a dump and it's 9 pages of gloom and doom

the market goes up by roughly the amount it went down and there's 1 post since Monday night

black monday leads to sunny tuesday

but nary a blurb from all the doom sayers

it's called volatility you bozos

You cant be serious. The market dropped 650 points yesterday and is up 154 points right now. (not to mention the previous 1,300 points it dropped since last week.

Get off it dude. No one wrote 9 pages of great stuff because the market is still down about 10% on already low interest rates.

You have an incredibly bad case of normalcy bias.

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if V-d-f's world view comes to pass you are better off investing in shotguns than silver. Bottled water will be king.

You're funny. and my world few is in fact coming to pass. You sit there with your paper notes, no water or shotguns.

EDIT: Bottled water will be king for the people who dont have money to buy it or didnt have the ability to store it.

I NEVER said to buy nothing but gold and silver. I've said here quite a few times to buy your storage food FIRST.

You of course like to knit pick my words as usual. Whats worse is that what you present isnt happening either.

That market can go back up, that DOES NOT change the fact of the matter. Uncontrollable debt is the problem, and to pay the debt the standard of living will change drastically for the people who havent prepared for it. Keep believing Bernanke and the rest of these pathological professional liars.

Im preparing for the worst and hoping for the best. You ignore the worst and pretend like this is nothing.

Your world few is going to get you in a heap of trouble.

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Since you don't believe in paper money or trading, your gold, which I assume is physical, has not actually gone up in value at all. Since you never sell, you don't actually make money. You will have the problem of unloading it in the future. If it is really worth as much as a house, then those of us with houses don't have any real need to trade you a house for it. Land always has value, there is zero point in trading it for a shiny metal.

What else are you going to buy with gold? A thousand boxes of slim jims?

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Villain, you equate debt paydown with armageddon (and might be right). If the debt had to be paid by us I'd agree. But have you considered what I've seen referred to as the "Trade Deficit Reverse Tariff"?

It's the idea that the trade deficit has created our national debt by undermining our tax base, sending all our cash straight to China. Suppose the government had the knowledge and guts (they have neither) to replace the lost income taxes (of offshored jobs) by:

- taxing companies that offshore their jobs...to remind their CEOs that they're Americans.

- taxing imports heavily...to remind importers that they're NOT.

(Nafta-shmafta...it screwed us, don't remind me about it.)

This would raise consumer prices, but we'd survive. It would also bring in GOBS of revenue that has been lost since we loaded our economy into a wheelbarrel and dumped it across the pacific.

and over time, the debt would fade. Yes, the ipod would cost $40 more, but we wouldn't have brothers selling their homes and moving into trailer parks. I prefer that outcome.

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Since you don't believe in paper money or trading, your gold, which I assume is physical, has not actually gone up in value at all. Since you never sell, you don't actually make money.

thank you for saying it. there's a difference between collecting and investing.

for example I collect records (vinyl) it's my hobby. I can buy a record for 10$ and it could "go up" to 20$ in the marketplace but unless I sell it, I've made nothing. In fact, I'm kinda down 10$.

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Villain, you equate debt paydown with armageddon (and might be right). If the debt had to be paid by us I'd agree. But have you considered what I've seen referred to as the "Trade Deficit Reverse Tariff"?

It's the idea that the trade deficit has created our national debt by undermining our tax base, sending all our cash straight to China. Suppose the government had the knowledge and guts (they have neither) to replace the lost income taxes (of offshored jobs) by:

- taxing companies that offshore their jobs...to remind their CEOs that they're Americans.

- taxing imports heavily...to remind importers that they're NOT.

(Nafta-shmafta...it screwed us, don't remind me about it.)

This would raise consumer prices, but we'd survive. It would also bring in GOBS of revenue that has been lost since we loaded our economy into a wheelbarrel and dumped it across the pacific.

and over time, the debt would fade. Yes, the ipod would cost $40 more, but we wouldn't have brothers selling their homes and moving into trailer parks. I prefer that outcome.

As I understand it, the link actually goes both ways. The inflow of foreign capital and the trade deficit are creating each other.

S - I = NX

Savings - Investment = Net eXports

Net capital outflow must always equal the trade balance

The national income accounts identity shows that the international flow of funds to finance capital accumulation and the international flow of goods and services are two sides of the same coin.

Mankiw, pp. 123

Tariffs will not work though. When protectionist trade policies are implemented,

the reduced demand for imports shifts the net exports schedule outward...Because nothing has changed in the market for loanable funds funds, the interest rate remains the same, which in turn implies that the net capital outflow remains the same. The shift in the net-exports schedule causes the exchange rate to appreciate. The rise in the exchange rate makes U.S. goods expensive relative to foreign goods, which depresses exports and stimulates imports. In the end, the trade restriction does not affect the trade balance.

Mankiw, pp. 159

The quotes are from the text I have from a macro class I took. It is Macroeconomics by N. Gregory Mankiw.

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Since you don't believe in paper money or trading, your gold, which I assume is physical, has not actually gone up in value at all. Since you never sell, you don't actually make money. You will have the problem of unloading it in the future. If it is really worth as much as a house, then those of us with houses don't have any real need to trade you a house for it. Land always has value, there is zero point in trading it for a shiny metal.

What else are you going to buy with gold? A thousand boxes of slim jims?

Bitonti has thanked you for your comment.

All I have to say is....We'll see.

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Villain, you equate debt paydown with armageddon (and might be right). If the debt had to be paid by us I'd agree. But have you considered what I've seen referred to as the "Trade Deficit Reverse Tariff"?

It's the idea that the trade deficit has created our national debt by undermining our tax base, sending all our cash straight to China. Suppose the government had the knowledge and guts (they have neither) to replace the lost income taxes (of offshored jobs) by:

- taxing companies that offshore their jobs...to remind their CEOs that they're Americans.

- taxing imports heavily...to remind importers that they're NOT.

(Nafta-shmafta...it screwed us, don't remind me about it.)

This would raise consumer prices, but we'd survive. It would also bring in GOBS of revenue that has been lost since we loaded our economy into a wheelbarrel and dumped it across the pacific.

and over time, the debt would fade. Yes, the ipod would cost $40 more, but we wouldn't have brothers selling their homes and moving into trailer parks. I prefer that outcome.

The reason why I equate the debt with financial armageddon because its just that. It wouldnt be if we had a debt jubilee which no one has presented nor will they as long as they can keep the scheme going with a printing press.

You say that I equate it, but what do you see? The jobs are gone, and we're entering/creating every war that we possibly can. ANYONE who's looked at history has seen this same exact method with every empire that failed. You think we're special?

We live in a reality bubble. This is not my equation, its the truth. Now they will continue to debase your money...but not mine. I purchased more Silver today because I see whats coming.

Like I said and MARK MY WORDS. By December you'll know, and once QE2 makes its way through the system you'll see inflation at 15-25% in 2012. Then you'll know. Gold will be 2 or 3000 by then, and then you'll know.

Silver will be about $80, then you'll know. The Dow will crash and then that will force the public to ask for a solution and they will have one...called QE3, then you'll know.

Im no nastradamus, but seriously, how many times do they have to do this before we catch on?

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the market takes a dump and it's 9 pages of gloom and doom

the market goes up by roughly the amount it went down and there's 1 post since Monday night

black monday leads to sunny tuesday

but nary a blurb from all the doom sayers

it's called volatility you bozos

Some assholes in trade shops on the street and high frequency traders made a killing the last 2 days.

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Basically, if we want to fix the trade deficit, we have to start saving and vice versa. Normally, a great way to make people save would be to raise interest rates. Unfortunately, that would kill the economy.

Or we can grow the manufacturing sector by rolling back some of these unfair trade deals.

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Im not surprised.

Instead of exercising and laying off greasy ribs and omelets, just go and have a stent put in. Insurance covers it, so what the hell.

Yep.. not to mention blood pressure medicine and cholesterol lowering drugs that peopel think protect them and gives them a license to continue to eat poorly

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NAFTA has killed what was left of the manufacturing sector in this country.

Well, tbh I don't know much about NAFTA, but basic macro says specialization and trade is good. Maybe we just don't have a comparative advantage in manufacturing anymore. What do you suggest? Protectionist trade policies do more harm than good imo. When we raised steel tariffs, we lost car manufacturing jobs because steel is an input for them.

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Some assholes in trade shops on the street and high frequency traders made a killing the last 2 days.

The HFTs were kind of ridiculous. The volume from about 3 PM on was off the charts crazy. You can't really compete with that as the little guy.

Still, it was actually easier to make money the past 2 weeks and today than usual, because all it really did was go straight down for 2 weeks and now straight up for probably another full week at least. You can play the smaller intraday swings, I did today, but you don't really have to when the large moves are as big as the past 2 weeks were.

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Well, tbh I don't know much about NAFTA, but basic macro says specialization and trade is good. Maybe we just don't have a comparative advantage in manufacturing anymore. What do you suggest? Protectionist trade policies do more harm than good imo. When we raised steel tariffs, we lost car manufacturing jobs because steel is an input for them.

It's good for people in the 3rd world but not for workers in the US. I think there has to be a happy medium between completely free trade and protectionism. it's not a zero sum game. The answer is above my pay grade though.

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Yep.. not to mention blood pressure medicine and cholesterol lowering drugs that peopel think protect them and gives them a license to continue to eat poorly

Yep, I find it hard to believe that other countries consume pharmaceuticals like the USA.

I know someone who had stints put in just because he wanted to head off any problems before they happened.

He still eats like Hog.

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It's good for people in the 3rd world but not for workers in the US. I think there has to be a happy medium between completely free trade and protectionism. it's not a zero sum game. The answer is above my pay grade though.

I agree with you.

But, the problem is that Americans want everything low price, so the cheapest man gets the job. The manufacturing companies and retail store make more money if things are made where labor is dirt cheap, there are no unions and EPA rules are non existent.

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Ok, I'm just going to say it.

*We need protectionist trade policies.

*We're finished as a nation unless we implement trade policies that favor domestic manufacturing.

And I'd like to trace the rhetoric saying protectionism is terrible. I bet it's coming straight from Beijing. I can never find a quantitative explanation of how manufacturing our own goods is so bad, I only hear "Well, it's just a terrible idea".

Terrible for who? Beijing, that's who.

Pot feels good. Heroin feels good. But they're drugs. Long-term, bad things happen.

Cheap products feel good. But they're a DRUG TOO. We need to see low offshored prices as a drug rotting our economy and check ourselves into rehab. The leaders in China are clever people. They know that we're hooked and don't have the means to pull the needle out. Our Congress is focused on 'winning' arguments from day to day, and not on governing for the long-term.

I realize consumer prices would go up. We'll live. We did just fine without England wiping our a$$, and we don't need China doing it either.

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Since you don't believe in paper money or trading, your gold, which I assume is physical, has not actually gone up in value at all. Since you never sell, you don't actually make money. You will have the problem of unloading it in the future. If it is really worth as much as a house, then those of us with houses don't have any real need to trade you a house for it. Land always has value, there is zero point in trading it for a shiny metal.

What else are you going to buy with gold? A thousand boxes of slim jims?

I remember hearing somewhere that during the Weimar Republic's crazy inflation in pre-WW2 Germany that a house was going for about 4 oz's. of gold. Here's a chart of their price of gold over time.

July 1914 1.0

Jan 1919 2.6

July 1919 3.4

Jan 1920 12.6

Jan 1921 14.4

July 1921 14.3

Jan 1922 36.7

July 1922 100.6

Jan 1923 2,785.0

July 1923 194,000.0

Nov 1923 726,000,000,000.0

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Yep, I find it hard to believe that other countries consume pharmaceuticals like the USA.

I know someone who had stints put in just because he wanted to head off any problems before they happened.

He still eats like Hog.

lol.. nuts

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I remember hearing somewhere that during the Weimar Republic's crazy inflation in pre-WW2 Germany that a house was going for about 4 oz's. of gold. Here's a chart of their price of gold over time.

July 1914 1.0

Jan 1919 2.6

July 1919 3.4

Jan 1920 12.6

Jan 1921 14.4

July 1921 14.3

Jan 1922 36.7

July 1922 100.6

Jan 1923 2,785.0

July 1923 194,000.0

Nov 1923 726,000,000,000.0

There were stories of people buying ENTIRE CITY BLOCKS in germany for 1 oz of gold.

You know, that stuff that you cant seem to "unload" in a fiat crisis (and that Bernanke said central banks hold for, get this...... "tradition"). Yeah, that stuff. lol People were buying city blocks with gold in weimar.

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Ok, I'm just going to say it.

*We need protectionist trade policies.

*We're finished as a nation unless we implement trade policies that favor domestic manufacturing.

And I'd like to trace the rhetoric saying protectionism is terrible. I bet it's coming straight from Beijing. I can never find a quantitative explanation of how manufacturing our own goods is so bad, I only hear "Well, it's just a terrible idea".

Terrible for who? Beijing, that's who.

Pot feels good. Heroin feels good. But they're drugs. Long-term, bad things happen.

Cheap products feel good. But they're a DRUG TOO. We need to see low offshored prices as a drug rotting our economy and check ourselves into rehab. The leaders in China are clever people. They know that we're hooked and don't have the means to pull the needle out. Our Congress is focused on 'winning' arguments from day to day, and not on governing for the long-term.

I realize consumer prices would go up. We'll live. We did just fine without England wiping our a$$, and we don't need China doing it either.

I'd like to compliment your statement.

We need FREE MARKETS. We also need smaller govt. We need for people to become fully liable for their actions and their lives. We need God back in this country more importantly.

The constitution was founded on many of the laws/statutes/commandments of the bible. Today we follow the planks from Karl Marx.

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Ok, I'm just going to say it.

*We need protectionist trade policies.

*We're finished as a nation unless we implement trade policies that favor domestic manufacturing.

And I'd like to trace the rhetoric saying protectionism is terrible. I bet it's coming straight from Beijing. I can never find a quantitative explanation of how manufacturing our own goods is so bad, I only hear "Well, it's just a terrible idea".

Terrible for who? Beijing, that's who.

Pot feels good. Heroin feels good. But they're drugs. Long-term, bad things happen.

Cheap products feel good. But they're a DRUG TOO. We need to see low offshored prices as a drug rotting our economy and check ourselves into rehab. The leaders in China are clever people. They know that we're hooked and don't have the means to pull the needle out. Our Congress is focused on 'winning' arguments from day to day, and not on governing for the long-term.

I realize consumer prices would go up. We'll live. We did just fine without England wiping our a$$, and we don't need China doing it either.

Actually, it started with this guy:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Ricardo

British/Portuguese

I'd like to compliment your statement.

We need FREE MARKETS. We also need smaller govt. We need for people to become fully liable for their actions and their lives. We need God back in this country more importantly.

The constitution was founded on many of the laws/statutes/commandments of the bible. Today we follow the planks from Karl Marx.

How do free markets and protectionism fit together? Protectionism is the restriction of trade.

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Ok, I'm just going to say it.

*We need protectionist trade policies.

*We're finished as a nation unless we implement trade policies that favor domestic manufacturing.

And I'd like to trace the rhetoric saying protectionism is terrible. I bet it's coming straight from Beijing. I can never find a quantitative explanation of how manufacturing our own goods is so bad, I only hear "Well, it's just a terrible idea".

Terrible for who? Beijing, that's who.

Pot feels good. Heroin feels good. But they're drugs. Long-term, bad things happen.

Cheap products feel good. But they're a DRUG TOO. We need to see low offshored prices as a drug rotting our economy and check ourselves into rehab. The leaders in China are clever people. They know that we're hooked and don't have the means to pull the needle out. Our Congress is focused on 'winning' arguments from day to day, and not on governing for the long-term.

I realize consumer prices would go up. We'll live. We did just fine without England wiping our a$$, and we don't need China doing it either.

The world tried that once in mercantilism...never again, lol.

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Actually, it started with this guy:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Ricardo

British/Portuguese

How do free markets and protectionism fit together? Protectionism is the restriction of trade.

You can have oversight of the free market. Free markets dont have to be anarchistic if you will. They can have rules and be governed without being nothing more than corporatism which is what we have today.

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You can have oversight of the free market. Free markets dont have to be anarchistic if you will. They can have rules and be governed without being nothing more than corporatism

I think everyone believes this. However what exactly that oversight should be is a much harder nut to crack.

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You can have oversight of the free market. Free markets dont have to be anarchistic if you will. They can have rules and be governed without being nothing more than corporatism

Oh ok, that's pretty much what I believe but some people don't consider those markets free once there are regulations.

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